From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 1 00:05:04 2007
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sat Dec 1 00:07:38 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Bohm quotes on Self
In-Reply-To: <4750830D.000001.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
References: <00bd01c8338c$81e33bd0$b676480c@HOME>
<4750830D.000001.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <AACE8B26-9E3C-4BCA-8887-FFC53E060C8A@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
C'mon man. When are you going to publish your novel/
don
On 30 Nov 2007, at 21:39, william wrote:
> >...We really don't have to think of ourself as an "image" or
> "thing" to think of ourself
> >at all. When I am aware of myself and use my imagination in
> conjunction with self
> >the "self" I am aware of is something more like a feeling tone.
> There's no image of
> >self at all, no fixed body, no fixed "anything" just a feeling of
> presence and the
> >awareness of being conscious.
>
> Or the feeling of hurt.
> He: "I didn't say anything".
> She: "You don't have to say anything. It's the way you don't speak.
> It's the way you don't look. It's the way you don't hear my tears
> when you're not there."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 1 00:22:14 2007
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sat Dec 1 00:24:44 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <008701c83399$83c444f0$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <DBAF0BA5-46FF-4DB9-8516-4F5CB25BAEDD@donfactor.demon.co.uk><474DCDB9.000001.01000@VAIO-584793128F><C74FC436-0095-4DE6-8079-4F51EC0BB7CA@donfactor.demon.co.uk><006f01c832c3$ff80ecf0$da76480c@HOME><c47283890711291652m101fb735hd22a3d668a7678dd@mail.gmail.com><009e01c832ee$76590590$da76480c@HOME><c47283890711291746i63e377ecod8dcc505ef707424@mail.gmail.com><00b701c832fd$c67d6340$da76480c@HOME><31104423-D50B-48B6-A62A-ED71B7531EC9@donfactor.demon.co.uk><1E75CB57-AF6E-4845-8545-951EB6DB2044@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
<E510AA81-6A9C-4496-BCB9-1F1ABDD06F6A@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
<008701c83399$83c444f0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <75EE5D84-2432-4267-8BA6-4CC26398C0CB@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
I never implied that any of these people were insane. But I may have
implied that anyone who takes these ideas and separates them from
their context which includes the time that these ideas were
expressed, and then writes about them as if they are The Truth.- that
feels insane to me. I do know that Bohm used to treat new ideas by
taking them up as fullly as possible and then from the vantage point
of an "insider" he was able to see their limitations and criticize
them with deep insight. But this approach did tend to get him into
trouble. He was one of the last American intellectuals to give up on
the Soviet experiment. He still wanted to believe that it represented
a new kind of culture and that its excesses were only the result of
it still being in the early stages of its adolescence. He also wrote
a text book about physics from the point of view of the Copenhagen or
standard model. The book was a great success and it was used for many
years by students in American universities, But he wrote it in order
to be able to better understand its weaknesses. and that was what was
important to him. And that didn't do him much good either. This is
not to demean him. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think that his
ideas were pointing in a very valuable direction. And of course, I
had no vested interests that need protecting. But one thing that he
made clear was that we should not believe him, or treat his proposals
as truths, scientific or otherwise. He used to say that he professed
nothing, that he only made proposals that he hoped people would
inquire into. For me, they have given me a lot to think about, and I
have learned a lot. but I don't take them as gospel. I work with them
in hopes that they might open a door to the next room in the palace
of understanding. That's the sort of thing that he wanted,
don
On 30 Nov 2007, at 21:39, Don Lay wrote:
> But if the whole thing is about a concept that doesn't refer to
> anything real - a map without a territory - then what have you got?
> -- df
>
> Again, my interest is in exploring the meaning of db/thought, and
> presently the meaning of db/thought regarding self image and the
> significance of quantum discoveries for the way language and
> thought functions.
>
> Maybe Bohm's ideas language, self, actuality, etc, are worth
> exploring, worth talking about. There are lots of people seem to
> feel that way.
>
> If you are claiming that Bohm was the victim of depression,
> insanity, etc., what you say might be worth exploring also.
> However, the quotes regarding self and territory appear to be the
> understanding of someone having given attention to, e.g., Korzybski.
>
> Is it also claimed that Korzybski is also insane? Bohm gives
> attention to other serious thinkers -- Piaget for example. Were
> they all insane? -- dl
>
>
> From: Don Factor
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 3:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
>
> On 30 Nov 2007, at 11:24, Don Factor wrote:
>
>> "Once we believe in ourselves, we can risk curiosity, wonder,
>> spontaneous delight, or any experience that reveals the human
>> spirit." e.e. cummings (1894-1962)
>
> Don, what do you make of the quote that I posted earlier? What it
> says rings true to me. I know that psychologists have discovered
> pretty much as they guessed it would that a "healthy ego" is
> necessary for any kind of happiness or success in life. A sick ego,
> that is one that is is either overblown or one that doesn't value
> him or herself doesn't get anywhere in life and is usually pretty
> miserable. And all the acting and pretending in the world won't
> help. To me this is obvious. But if the whole thing is about a
> concept that doesn't refer to anything real - a map without a
> territory - then what have you got? Not much, I'd say. For
> instance, I think Bohm must have had a very healthy ego for him to
> have accomplished all he did - against great odds where the people
> who counted in his world refused to listen to him. Of course, he
> also suffered from a cyclical disorder that left him from time to
> time in deep doubt about his life work. But that is quite a bit
> different from deeming oneself as something - or maybe nothing -
> that has its meaning and value fundamentally in the implicate and
> is thus spread out invisibly over time and space with no center and
> no stable relationship with the explicate world which is where
> acting and pretending is the whole business. I mean, that would
> seem to be only a step away from suicide, or a pretty extreme ego
> trip.
>
> don
>
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From w at david-bohm.net Sat Dec 1 00:49:36 2007
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Sat Dec 1 00:52:12 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
>I: How would a person function daily in ordinary reality and appear
normal'
>if they felt they had no 'self'; no 'I-dentity'?
You cannot, but i don't think that is what he wants anyway. Perhaps he has
read something about Nirvana, or Wu Wei, or something like that and fancies
himself as an enlightened Zen master. Many of these selfless super-modest
masters (who are invariably one with the universe) take a great delight in
not being recognized as such by us ordinary mortals. I have done this myself
for a while. I think i know what he is talking about. I know that feeling of
"deep peace in deep awareness". I know what it is like to be one with the
universe. I have managed to escape from this nonsense, but apparently he
still doesn't realize the trap. You are justified about being worried about
him. He is probably one step away from suicide. He is a longing for death.
But he is not going to do it. He is an ex-marine and a fighter. His may have
lost his mind when he was with the military, but he is a survivor.
Eventually, some intelligence will perculate back into his mind. I know he
hates this, but the best way to get him out of this "deep" sleep is to get
personal with him; confront him directly as a person (as i am doing now).
-------Original Message-------
From: Irene Darcy
Date: 30.11.2007 23:21:45
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I: How would a person function daily in ordinary reality and appear 'normal
if they felt they had no 'self'; no 'I-dentity'?
On Nov 30, 2007 5:05 PM, william <w@david-bohm.net> wrote:
Mr. Lay seems to be addicted to an illusion of what he thinks is "deep".
This is what he said on 29.11.2007:
"I find deep peace in deep awareness, a selfless experience in the sense of
experience that I describe as being prior to and therefore more fundamental
than the social, personal reality. I like the idea of ontic actuality ...
maybe sameness as this that is."
-------Original Message-------
From: Irene Darcy
Date: 30.11.2007 22:04:18
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I mean, that would seem to be only a step away from suicide, or a pretty
extreme ego trip.
I: Yes. This is what makes me feel concerned. Worried.
On Nov 30, 2007 3:55 PM, Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 30 Nov 2007, at 11:24, Don Factor wrote:
"Once we believe in ourselves, we can risk curiosity, wonder, spontaneous
delight, or any experience that reveals the human spirit." e.e. cummings
(1894-1962)
Don, what do you make of the quote that I posted earlier? What it says rings
true to me. I know that psychologists have discovered pretty much as they
guessed it would that a "healthy ego" is necessary for any kind of happiness
or success in life. A sick ego, that is one that is is either overblown or
one that doesn't value him or herself doesn't get anywhere in life and is
usually pretty miserable. And all the acting and pretending in the world won
t help. To me this is obvious. But if the whole thing is about a concept
that doesn't refer to anything real - a map without a territory - then what
have you got? Not much, I'd say. For instance, I think Bohm must have had a
very healthy ego for him to have accomplished all he did - against great
odds where the people who counted in his world refused to listen to him. Of
course, he also suffered from a cyclical disorder that left him from time to
time in deep doubt about his life work. But that is quite a bit different
from deeming oneself as something - or maybe nothing - that has its meaning
and value fundamentally in the implicate and is thus spread out invisibly
over time and space with no center and no stable relationship with the
explicate world which is where acting and pretending is the whole business.
I mean, that would seem to be only a step away from suicide, or a pretty
extreme ego trip.
don
--
Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--
Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 00:58:27 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Sat Dec 1 01:00:57 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com>
<4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <c47283890711301558u69deff19v241cfd113c49326e@mail.gmail.com>
. But he is not going to do it. He is an ex-marine and a fighter. His may
have lost his mind when he was with the military, but he is a survivor.
I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the
trap. Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then
what?
On Nov 30, 2007 6:49 PM, william <w@david-bohm.net> wrote:
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From w at david-bohm.net Sat Dec 1 01:11:25 2007
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Sat Dec 1 01:14:01 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <75EE5D84-2432-4267-8BA6-4CC26398C0CB@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4750A6AC.000007.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
That's how i know Bohm too. He would hate it when someone says "Bohm said...
. He was changing his views all the time anyway so quoting Bohm is pretty
useless unless the quote is dated. He was changing views the same way an
artist would change style over time. In fact, it is perhaps not entirely
wrong to think of him as a kind of artist.
-------Original Message-------
From: Don Factor
Date: 01.12.2007 00:22:18
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I never implied that any of these people were insane. But I may have implied
that anyone who takes these ideas and separates them from their context
which includes the time that these ideas were expressed, and then writes
about them as if they are The Truth.- that feels insane to me. I do know
that Bohm used to treat new ideas by taking them up as fullly as possible
and then from the vantage point of an "insider" he was able to see their
limitations and criticize them with deep insight. But this approach did tend
to get him into trouble. He was one of the last American intellectuals to
give up on the Soviet experiment. He still wanted to believe that it
represented a new kind of culture and that its excesses were only the result
of it still being in the early stages of its adolescence. He also wrote a
text book about physics from the point of view of the Copenhagen or standard
model. The book was a great success and it was used for many years by
students in American universities, But he wrote it in order to be able to
better understand its weaknesses. and that was what was important to him.
And that didn't do him much good either. This is not to demean him. I wouldn
t be here if I didn't think that his ideas were pointing in a very valuable
direction. And of course, I had no vested interests that need protecting.
But one thing that he made clear was that we should not believe him, or
treat his proposals as truths, scientific or otherwise. He used to say that
he professed nothing, that he only made proposals that he hoped people would
inquire into. For me, they have given me a lot to think about, and I have
learned a lot. but I don't take them as gospel. I work with them in hopes
that they might open a door to the next room in the palace of understanding.
That's the sort of thing that he wanted,
don
On 30 Nov 2007, at 21:39, Don Lay wrote:
But if the whole thing is about a concept that doesn't refer to anything
real - a map without a territory - then what have you got? -- df
Again, my interest is in exploring the meaning of db/thought, and presently
the meaning of db/thought regarding self image and the significance of
quantum discoveries for the way language and thought functions.
Maybe Bohm's ideas language, self, actuality, etc, are worth exploring,
worth talking about. There are lots of people seem to feel that way.
If you are claiming that Bohm was the victim of depression, insanity, etc.,
what you say might be worth exploring also. However, the quotes regarding
self and territory appear to be the understanding of someone having given
attention to, e.g., Korzybski.
Is it also claimed that Korzybski is also insane? Bohm gives attention to
other serious thinkers -- Piaget for example. Were they all insane? -- dl
From: Don Factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
On 30 Nov 2007, at 11:24, Don Factor wrote:
"Once we believe in ourselves, we can risk curiosity, wonder, spontaneous
delight, or any experience that reveals the human spirit." e.e. cummings
(1894-1962)
Don, what do you make of the quote that I posted earlier? What it says rings
true to me. I know that psychologists have discovered pretty much as they
guessed it would that a "healthy ego" is necessary for any kind of happiness
or success in life. A sick ego, that is one that is is either overblown or
one that doesn't value him or herself doesn't get anywhere in life and is
usually pretty miserable. And all the acting and pretending in the world won
t help. To me this is obvious. But if the whole thing is about a concept
that doesn't refer to anything real - a map without a territory - then what
have you got? Not much, I'd say. For instance, I think Bohm must have had a
very healthy ego for him to have accomplished all he did - against great
odds where the people who counted in his world refused to listen to him. Of
course, he also suffered from a cyclical disorder that left him from time to
time in deep doubt about his life work. But that is quite a bit different
from deeming oneself as something - or maybe nothing - that has its meaning
and value fundamentally in the implicate and is thus spread out invisibly
over time and space with no center and no stable relationship with the
explicate world which is where acting and pretending is the whole business.
I mean, that would seem to be only a step away from suicide, or a pretty
extreme ego trip.
don
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From w at david-bohm.net Sat Dec 1 01:17:27 2007
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Sat Dec 1 01:20:04 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301558u69deff19v241cfd113c49326e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4750A816.000009.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will
face the confrontation. Wait and see...
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 01:26:57 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 01:29:26 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301558u69deff19v241cfd113c49326e@mail.gmail.com>
<4750A816.000009.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <00d701c833b0$e22eaeb0$b5c16018@DL01>
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From landmana at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 02:04:17 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Sat Dec 1 02:06:52 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <00d701c833b0$e22eaeb0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <567140.36127.qm@web57413.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url (#default#vml) } v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url (#default#vml) } What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Sat Dec 1 02:29:55 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Sat Dec 1 02:32:37 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com>
<4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME>
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: How would a person function daily in ordinary reality and appear 'normal'
>if they felt they had no 'self'; no 'I-dentity'?
You cannot, but i don't think that is what he wants anyway. Perhaps he has read something about Nirvana, or Wu Wei, or something like that and fancies himself as an enlightened Zen master. Many of these selfless super-modest masters (who are invariably one with the universe) take a great delight in not being recognized as such by us ordinary mortals. I have done this myself for a while. I think i know what he is talking about. I know that feeling of "deep peace in deep awareness". I know what it is like to be one with the universe. I have managed to escape from this nonsense, but apparently he still doesn't realize the trap. You are justified about being worried about him. He is probably one step away from suicide. He is a longing for death. But he is not going to do it. He is an ex-marine and a fighter. His may have lost his mind when he was with the military, but he is a survivor. Eventually, some intelligence will perculate back into his mind. I know he hates this, but the best way to get him out of this "deep" sleep is to get personal with him; confront him directly as a person (as i am doing now).
-------Original Message-------
From: Irene Darcy
Date: 30.11.2007 23:21:45
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I: How would a person function daily in ordinary reality and appear 'normal' if they felt they had no 'self'; no 'I-dentity'?
On Nov 30, 2007 5:05 PM, william <w@david-bohm.net> wrote:
Mr. Lay seems to be addicted to an illusion of what he thinks is "deep". This is what he said on 29.11.2007:
"I find deep peace in deep awareness, a selfless experience in the sense of experience that I describe as being prior to and therefore more fundamental than the social, personal reality. I like the idea of ontic actuality ... maybe sameness as this that is."
-------Original Message-------
From: Irene Darcy
Date: 30.11.2007 22:04:18
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I mean, that would seem to be only a step away from suicide, or a pretty extreme ego trip.
I: Yes. This is what makes me feel concerned. Worried.
On Nov 30, 2007 3:55 PM, Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 30 Nov 2007, at 11:24, Don Factor wrote:
"Once we believe in ourselves, we can risk curiosity, wonder, spontaneous delight, or any experience that reveals the human spirit." e.e. cummings (1894-1962)
Don, what do you make of the quote that I posted earlier? What it says rings true to me. I know that psychologists have discovered pretty much as they guessed it would that a "healthy ego" is necessary for any kind of happiness or success in life. A sick ego, that is one that is is either overblown or one that doesn't value him or herself doesn't get anywhere in life and is usually pretty miserable. And all the acting and pretending in the world won't help. To me this is obvious. But if the whole thing is about a concept that doesn't refer to anything real - a map without a territory - then what have you got? Not much, I'd say. For instance, I think Bohm must have had a very healthy ego for him to have accomplished all he did - against great odds where the people who counted in his world refused to listen to him. Of course, he also suffered from a cyclical disorder that left him from time to time in deep doubt about his life work. But that is quite a bit different from deeming oneself as something - or maybe nothing - that has its meaning and value fundamentally in the implicate and is thus spread out invisibly over time and space with no center and no stable relationship with the explicate world which is where acting and pretending is the whole business. I mean, that would seem to be only a step away from suicide, or a pretty extreme ego trip.
don
--
Irene
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Irene
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 02:59:23 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 03:01:56 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F>
<013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01>
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him, Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: How would a person function daily in ordinary reality and appear 'normal'
>if they felt they had no 'self'; no 'I-dentity'?
You cannot, but i don't think that is what he wants anyway. Perhaps he has read something about Nirvana, or Wu Wei, or something like that and fancies himself as an enlightened Zen master. Many of these selfless super-modest masters (who are invariably one with the universe) take a great delight in not being recognized as such by us ordinary mortals. I have done this myself for a while. I think i know what he is talking about. I know that feeling of "deep peace in deep awareness". I know what it is like to be one with the universe. I have managed to escape from this nonsense, but apparently he still doesn't realize the trap. You are justified about being worried about him. He is probably one step away from suicide. He is a longing for death. But he is not going to do it. He is an ex-marine and a fighter. His may have lost his mind when he was with the military, but he is a survivor. Eventually, some intelligence will perculate back into his mind. I know he hates this, but the best way to get him out of this "deep" sleep is to get personal with him; confront him directly as a person (as i am doing now).
-------Original Message-------
From: Irene Darcy
Date: 30.11.2007 23:21:45
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I: How would a person function daily in ordinary reality and appear 'normal' if they felt they had no 'self'; no 'I-dentity'?
On Nov 30, 2007 5:05 PM, william <w@david-bohm.net> wrote:
Mr. Lay seems to be addicted to an illusion of what he thinks is "deep". This is what he said on 29.11.2007:
"I find deep peace in deep awareness, a selfless experience in the sense of experience that I describe as being prior to and therefore more fundamental than the social, personal reality. I like the idea of ontic actuality ... maybe sameness as this that is."
-------Original Message-------
From: Irene Darcy
Date: 30.11.2007 22:04:18
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I mean, that would seem to be only a step away from suicide, or a pretty extreme ego trip.
I: Yes. This is what makes me feel concerned. Worried.
On Nov 30, 2007 3:55 PM, Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 30 Nov 2007, at 11:24, Don Factor wrote:
"Once we believe in ourselves, we can risk curiosity, wonder, spontaneous delight, or any experience that reveals the human spirit." e.e. cummings (1894-1962)
Don, what do you make of the quote that I posted earlier? What it says rings true to me. I know that psychologists have discovered pretty much as they guessed it would that a "healthy ego" is necessary for any kind of happiness or success in life. A sick ego, that is one that is is either overblown or one that doesn't value him or herself doesn't get anywhere in life and is usually pretty miserable. And all the acting and pretending in the world won't help. To me this is obvious. But if the whole thing is about a concept that doesn't refer to anything real - a map without a territory - then what have you got? Not much, I'd say. For instance, I think Bohm must have had a very healthy ego for him to have accomplished all he did - against great odds where the people who counted in his world refused to listen to him. Of course, he also suffered from a cyclical disorder that left him from time to time in deep doubt about his life work. But that is quite a bit different from deeming oneself as something - or maybe nothing - that has its meaning and value fundamentally in the implicate and is thus spread out invisibly over time and space with no center and no stable relationship with the explicate world which is where acting and pretending is the whole business. I mean, that would seem to be only a step away from suicide, or a pretty extreme ego trip.
don
--
Irene
----------------------------------------------------------------
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info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--
Irene
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 03:07:03 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 03:09:30 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <567140.36127.qm@web57413.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004801c833be$dd8653f0$b5c16018@DL01>
Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Sat Dec 1 03:43:48 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Sat Dec 1 03:46:22 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F><013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME>
<002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <015001c833c4$0083e6b0$b676480c@HOME>
Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in regards to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own imagination when it comes to others and our communications with each other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are "necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of the biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. Both of those things make him a favorite of mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him, Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 03:58:39 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 04:01:10 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F><013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME><002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01>
<015001c833c4$0083e6b0$b676480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <007501c833c6$13278f40$b5c16018@DL01>
It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for exploring ... quoting db remarks about self and self-image and self-identity?
You see any danger of insanity or suicide about inquiring into what Bohm wrote about self, identity, Korzybski's map, etc? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in regards to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own imagination when it comes to others and our communications with each other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are "necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of the biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. Both of those things make him a favorite of mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him, Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Sat Dec 1 04:28:50 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Sat Dec 1 04:31:26 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F><013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME><002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01><015001c833c4$0083e6b0$b676480c@HOME>
<007501c833c6$13278f40$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <018301c833ca$4b24ea60$b676480c@HOME>
Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously dl. Remember, William has some pretty strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to have her own set of pretty strong ideas. And you well know that all of us have problems with your insistence on repeating the same ideas for so many years without expanding on them which pretty much covers df I think. And doesn't insanity simply mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is what I would call insane but of course, that's just my preference. When it comes to ideas of suicide, that seemed to come out of left field for me. But I haven't been around for a while so don't know. My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for exploring ... quoting db remarks about self and self-image and self-identity?
You see any danger of insanity or suicide about inquiring into what Bohm wrote about self, identity, Korzybski's map, etc? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in regards to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own imagination when it comes to others and our communications with each other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are "necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of the biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. Both of those things make him a favorite of mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him, Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 04:34:51 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 04:37:21 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F><013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME><002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01><015001c833c4$0083e6b0$b676480c@HOME><007501c833c6$13278f40$b5c16018@DL01>
<018301c833ca$4b24ea60$b676480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <008901c833cb$21c6e640$b5c16018@DL01>
My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new. -- Susan
I think you're right. Why do you suppose they're so bothered?
It couldn't be because they are as phony and fucked up as everyone else, could it? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously dl. Remember, William has some pretty strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to have her own set of pretty strong ideas. And you well know that all of us have problems with your insistence on repeating the same ideas for so many years without expanding on them which pretty much covers df I think. And doesn't insanity simply mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is what I would call insane but of course, that's just my preference. When it comes to ideas of suicide, that seemed to come out of left field for me. But I haven't been around for a while so don't know. My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for exploring ... quoting db remarks about self and self-image and self-identity?
You see any danger of insanity or suicide about inquiring into what Bohm wrote about self, identity, Korzybski's map, etc? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in regards to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own imagination when it comes to others and our communications with each other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are "necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of the biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. Both of those things make him a favorite of mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him, Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
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From obsolete_idiom at hotmail.com Sat Dec 1 07:13:02 2007
From: obsolete_idiom at hotmail.com (eric scott nelson)
Date: Sat Dec 1 07:15:38 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <008901c833cb$21c6e640$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F><013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME><002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01><015001c833c4$0083e6b0$b676480c@HOME><007501c833c6$13278f40$b5c16018@DL01>
<018301c833ca$4b24ea60$b676480c@HOME>
<008901c833cb$21c6e640$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <BLU108-W366284002ABDA169E25593FF720@phx.gbl>
i don't know much about anything. i just joined this list serve. i am thinking of unsubscribing though. it sounds like you are all interested in have arguments and debates and personal judgement is not suspended. Although by even saying this i am passing judgement. for that i am sorry.
straight off of wikipedia (quotes from "On Dialogue"):
1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the conversation.
"...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what to do about
anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must have an
empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any
conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and
free" (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"
2. Each individual agrees suspend judgement in the conversation.
(Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does
not attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it
assumptions, and as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will
come up. What is called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that
you neither carry them out nor suppress them. You don't believe them,
nor do you disbelieve them; you don't judge them as good or
bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"
3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are as honest and transparent as possible.
(Specifically, if the individual has a "good idea" that he might
otherwise hold back from the group because it is too controversial, he
will share that idea in this conversation.)
4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals ideas in the conversation.
(The group often comes up with ideas that are far beyond what any of
the individuals thought possible before the conversation began.)
is there room for spontaneity in an online forum of dialogue?
-esn
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:34:51 -0500
My guess is they are simply getting
desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new. --
Susan
I think you're right. Why do
you suppose they're so bothered?
It couldn't be because they are as
phony and fucked up as everyone else, could it? -- dl
From:
Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:28
PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm
quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't
take any of it too seriously dl. Remember, William has some pretty
strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to have her own set of pretty
strong ideas. And you well know that all of us have problems with your
insistence on repeating the same ideas for so many years without expanding on
them which pretty much covers df I think. And doesn't insanity simply
mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is what I would call insane but
of course, that's just my preference. When it comes to ideas of suicide,
that seemed to come out of left field for me. But I haven't been around
for a while so don't know. My guess is they are simply getting desperate
in their attempts to get you to write something new.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From:
Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58
PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random
Bohm quotes on Image
It doesn't bother me to have been wrong
and I believe you understand.
But tell me please ... whence this talk of
insanity and suicide for exploring ... quoting db remarks about
self and self-image and self-identity?
You see any danger of insanity or
suicide about inquiring into what Bohm wrote about self, identity,
Korzybski's map, etc? --
dl
From:
Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43
PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random
Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well dl, I
think you could be making a similar mistake in regards to William that he
seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his remarks to
be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for your
well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own
imagination when it comes to others and our communications with each
other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always
bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are
"necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of
the biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's
also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks.
Both of those things make him a favorite of
mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From:
Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007
6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random
Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised
that what you say is in the direction of the true and real.
Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the
point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about
W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of
henchman or
henchwench
or df-groupie, but I could have been
wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be
again.
What I don't understand is this talk
about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote
about self and self-image drove him,
Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears
insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the
writings of Bohm regarding self and
self-identity?
Why? What possible reason
can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by
exploring Bohm's proposals regarding
self and self-imagery?
Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk
of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking
people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a
sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my
interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and
the meaning of Bohm's thought as
a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007
8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue]
Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're
getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here
William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in
life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has
been part of this group and saying these same things for years.
I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it
"ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or
"normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds
ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if
that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary
and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the
fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we
can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well.
Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal
the better you are able to function and the more you step away from
fragmentation.
dl has never said he has
no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that
most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of
dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the
deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to
recognize.
Susan
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 14:33:58 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 14:36:39 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F><013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME><002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01><015001c833c4$0083e6b0$b676480c@HOME><007501c833c6$13278f40$b5c16018@DL01><018301c833ca$4b24ea60$b676480c@HOME><008901c833cb$21c6e640$b5c16018@DL01>
<BLU108-W366284002ABDA169E25593FF720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <004201c8341e$d42a8a00$b5c16018@DL01>
i am thinking of unsubscribing though. it sounds like you are all interested in have arguments and debates and personal judgement is not suspended. Although by even saying this i am passing judgement. for that i am sorry. -- Eric [ highlights added]
Welcome Eric.
Just what is "suspending personal judgment"? Is it talking about one's personal self? Is it acting and pretending a role, e.g., acting and pretending to have been therapized by a Fromian Analyst and therefore qualified to diagnose a fellow dialogue participant insane and suicidal?
Does "suspending personal judgment" mean making judgments about another?
Just exactly what is meant by personal? What is the personal similar to and different from. -- dl
From: eric scott nelson
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 1:13 AM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
i don't know much about anything. i just joined this list serve. i am thinking of unsubscribing though. it sounds like you are all interested in have arguments and debates and personal judgement is not suspended. Although by even saying this i am passing judgement. for that i am sorry.
straight off of wikipedia (quotes from "On Dialogue"):
1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the conversation. "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and free" (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"
2. Each individual agrees suspend judgement in the conversation. (Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does not attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it assumptions, and as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will come up. What is called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you neither carry them out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do you disbelieve them; you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"
3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are as honest and transparent as possible. (Specifically, if the individual has a "good idea" that he might otherwise hold back from the group because it is too controversial, he will share that idea in this conversation.)
4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals ideas in the conversation. (The group often comes up with ideas that are far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the conversation began.)
is there room for spontaneity in an online forum of dialogue?
-esn
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:34:51 -0500
My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new. -- Susan
I think you're right. Why do you suppose they're so bothered?
It couldn't be because they are as phony and fucked up as everyone else, could it? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously dl. Remember, William has some pretty strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to have her own set of pretty strong ideas. And you well know that all of us have problems with your insistence on repeating the same ideas for so many years without expanding on them which pretty much covers df I think. And doesn't insanity simply mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is what I would call insane but of course, that's just my preference. When it comes to ideas of suicide, that seemed to come out of left field for me. But I haven't been around for a while so don't know. My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for exploring ... quoting db remarks about self and self-image and self-identity?
You see any danger of insanity or suicide about inquiring into what Bohm wrote about self, identity, Korzybski's map, etc? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in regards to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own imagination when it comes to others and our communications with each other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are "necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of the biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. Both of those things make him a favorite of mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him, Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Dec 1 15:17:01 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sat Dec 1 15:18:19 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Message-ID: <20071201.091824.2428.96.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Before we discover that our thoughts are not "the truth" they are taken
as "the truth." But they only represent different perspectives and
different angles and not "truths." And since they are different and only
fragments they will seem to be in conflict with one another. So when we
hear other perspectives we feel like we are in conflict with one another
and we will argue and we will fight and we will think that we are
fighting for the "truth" because we see our thoughts as "truths," as
"simply telling us the way things are." Seeing these thoughts as truths
is a recipe for endless conflict among people.
Suspension of the thoughts is the bohmian antidote, the brilliant basis
of the Bohmian Dialogue model. But before such suspension is possible,
these felt "truths" that we are fighting so innocently and nobly for,
need to be seen as assumptions because as "truths" they are not
suspendable.
Whether directly or indirectly, objections to Bohm's work on thought and
dialogue are objections to the very basis of it which is the suspension
of the assumptions. We see no good reason at all for finding an opening
in what we believe are "truths." This belief that our assumptions are
"truths" is the initial assumption that we see no need to suspend. But
suspension of the assumptions is to Bohm Dialogue as the seed of the tree
is to the tree. Without that dialogical seed of suspension all our talk
is typical talk.
-- funny
On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:13:02 +0900 eric scott nelson
<obsolete_idiom@hotmail.com> writes:
i don't know much about anything. i just joined this list serve. i am
thinking of unsubscribing though. it sounds like you are all interested
in have arguments and debates and personal judgement is not suspended.
Although by even saying this i am passing judgement. for that i am
sorry.
straight off of wikipedia (quotes from "On Dialogue"):
1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the
conversation. "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what
to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must
have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to
any conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and
free" (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"
2. Each individual agrees suspend judgement in the conversation.
(Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does
not attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it
assumptions, and as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will
come up. What is called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you
neither carry them out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do
you disbelieve them; you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On
Dialogue", p. 22.)"
3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are
as honest and transparent as possible. (Specifically, if the individual
has a "good idea" that he might otherwise hold back from the group
because it is too controversial, he will share that idea in this
conversation.)
4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals
ideas in the conversation. (The group often comes up with ideas that are
far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the
conversation began.)
is there room for spontaneity in an online forum of dialogue?
-esn
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:34:51 -0500
My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get
you to write something new. -- Susan
I think you're right. Why do you suppose they're so bothered?
It couldn't be because they are as phony and fucked up as everyone else,
could it? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously dl. Remember,
William has some pretty strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to
have her own set of pretty strong ideas. And you well know that all of
us have problems with your insistence on repeating the same ideas for so
many years without expanding on them which pretty much covers df I think.
And doesn't insanity simply mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is
what I would call insane but of course, that's just my preference. When
it comes to ideas of suicide, that seemed to come out of left field for
me. But I haven't been around for a while so don't know. My guess is
they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write
something new.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for
exploring ... quoting db remarks about self and self-image and
self-identity?
You see any danger of insanity or suicide about inquiring into what Bohm
wrote about self, identity, Korzybski's map, etc? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in
regards to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think
he meant his remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said
with concern for your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with
our own imagination when it comes to others and our communications with
each other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always
bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are
"necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of the
biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's also very honest
and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. Both of those things
make him a favorite of mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the
direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems
fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches
above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could
have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is
Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him,
Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires
into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide
by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless
you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care
less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm
wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas
about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in
life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of
this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any
problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants
to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list
who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if
that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal
are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us
are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal
and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you
step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function
and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he
recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the
purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even
deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned
to recognize.
Susan
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 15:49:48 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 15:52:23 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Self and Personal Self, verb and noun
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F><013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME><002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01><015001c833c4$0083e6b0$b676480c@HOME><007501c833c6$13278f40$b5c16018@DL01><018301c833ca$4b24ea60$b676480c@HOME>
<008901c833cb$21c6e640$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <002501c83429$6bc6e700$b5c16018@DL01>
What's the difference between self and personal self?
Is it a difference that makes a difference?
Maybe we say the personal self, deriving from the Greek and Latin words for actor's mask necessarily implies acting and pretending.
Webster's Dictionary notes presents the word self itself as being both a noun and a transitive verb: the transitive verb, "self: 1: INBREED 2: to polinate with the same pollen from flower or plant ~ vi : to undergo self-pollination".
Maybe the personal self, listed as pronoun (not as noun!!) becomes a transitive verb when people "self-polinate or inbreed" in the sense that they create a purely imaginary self which would be accurately described by the Korzybski/Bohm notion of the "self as a map without a territory".
So what! So, with awareness of selfing, awareness of using language to create self-imagery that we act and pretend is actuality until we have to go to the nuthouse -- then that awareness or proprioception ITSELF would suspend the identity movement when it was not needed or useful.
Therefore awareness of the nominal idea of the noun/pronoun, personal self becoming a transitive verb becomes important.
Why? In culture we all promote our self-image, good or bad it seems we all must do this to survive in culture and society.
Does it not seem clear that if we talk about this and are then aware of what we are doing with language, we can also be aware of tas does the same thing "in there", in systematic thought ... as db/thought says?
This is hard to formulate, but I believe the above is getting closer. Anyone else see the importance of the distinction between the nominal self and the transitive verb self? Does the awareness of this not equal proprioception of thought? -- dl
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 16:01:20 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 16:04:04 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <c47283890711301421u2795788cy96be3537016f9cbc@mail.gmail.com><4750A18F.000005.00804@VAIO-584793128F><013201c833b9$b1b98170$b676480c@HOME><002f01c833bd$ccf939e0$b5c16018@DL01><015001c833c4$0083e6b0$b676480c@HOME><007501c833c6$13278f40$b5c16018@DL01><018301c833ca$4b24ea60$b676480c@HOME>
<008901c833cb$21c6e640$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <004d01c8342b$0d7998d0$b5c16018@DL01>
My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new. -- Susan
Is it possible that people all over the Earth are desperate because tas "in there" is telling them they are localized, imaginary, noun-thingKs instead of telling them that the whole is wonderfully indivisible and reasonable and meaningful, and that tas and language are finite and limited systems having only finite and limited meaning? -- dl
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From donlay at knology.net Sat Dec 1 16:03:33 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sat Dec 1 16:06:07 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <20071201.091824.2428.96.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <005701c8342b$57de8ca0$b5c16018@DL01>
This seems to say it very well. -- dl
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Before we discover that our thoughts are not "the truth" they are taken as "the truth." But they only represent different perspectives and different angles and not "truths." And since they are different and only fragments they will seem to be in conflict with one another. So when we hear other perspectives we feel like we are in conflict with one another and we will argue and we will fight and we will think that we are fighting for the "truth" because we see our thoughts as "truths," as "simply telling us the way things are." Seeing these thoughts as truths is a recipe for endless conflict among people.
Suspension of the thoughts is the bohmian antidote, the brilliant basis of the Bohmian Dialogue model. But before such suspension is possible, these felt "truths" that we are fighting so innocently and nobly for, need to be seen as assumptions because as "truths" they are not suspendable.
Whether directly or indirectly, objections to Bohm's work on thought and dialogue are objections to the very basis of it which is the suspension of the assumptions. We see no good reason at all for finding an opening in what we believe are "truths." This belief that our assumptions are "truths" is the initial assumption that we see no need to suspend. But suspension of the assumptions is to Bohm Dialogue as the seed of the tree is to the tree. Without that dialogical seed of suspension all our talk is typical talk.
-- funny
On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:13:02 +0900 eric scott nelson <obsolete_idiom@hotmail.com> writes:
i don't know much about anything. i just joined this list serve. i am thinking of unsubscribing though. it sounds like you are all interested in have arguments and debates and personal judgement is not suspended. Although by even saying this i am passing judgement. for that i am sorry.
straight off of wikipedia (quotes from "On Dialogue"):
1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the conversation. "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and free" (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"
2. Each individual agrees suspend judgement in the conversation. (Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does not attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it assumptions, and as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will come up. What is called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you neither carry them out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do you disbelieve them; you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"
3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are as honest and transparent as possible. (Specifically, if the individual has a "good idea" that he might otherwise hold back from the group because it is too controversial, he will share that idea in this conversation.)
4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals ideas in the conversation. (The group often comes up with ideas that are far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the conversation began.)
is there room for spontaneity in an online forum of dialogue?
-esn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:34:51 -0500
My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new. -- Susan
I think you're right. Why do you suppose they're so bothered?
It couldn't be because they are as phony and fucked up as everyone else, could it? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously dl. Remember, William has some pretty strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to have her own set of pretty strong ideas. And you well know that all of us have problems with your insistence on repeating the same ideas for so many years without expanding on them which pretty much covers df I think. And doesn't insanity simply mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is what I would call insane but of course, that's just my preference. When it comes to ideas of suicide, that seemed to come out of left field for me. But I haven't been around for a while so don't know. My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for exploring ... quoting db remarks about self and self-image and self-identity?
You see any danger of insanity or suicide about inquiring into what Bohm wrote about self, identity, Korzybski's map, etc? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in regards to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own imagination when it comes to others and our communications with each other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are "necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of the biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. Both of those things make him a favorite of mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him, Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 16:12:36 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Sat Dec 1 16:15:16 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <20071201.091824.2428.96.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20071201.091824.2428.96.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712010712h3036c1ben408c9d2808a5bbac@mail.gmail.com>
Whether directly or indirectly, objections to Bohm's work on thought and
dialogue are objections to the very basis of it which is the suspension of
the assumptions.
I: Sorry, Pat. I think you're WAY off base here. It almost sounds
dogmatic. Fundamentalist. I wonder if you've suspended and examined that
thought.
On Dec 1, 2007 9:17 AM, <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> Before we discover that our thoughts are not "the truth" they are taken
> as "the truth." But they only represent different perspectives and different
> angles and not "truths."
>
> And since they are different and only fragments they will seem to be in
> conflict with one another.
>
And here. My objection is the word 'will'. Particularly in the context of
the other comments. What about "can", or 'may', or "the proposal is"?
> So when we hear other perspectives we feel like we are in conflict with
> one another and we will argue and we will fight and we will think that we
> are fighting for the "truth" because we see our thoughts as "truths," as
> "simply telling us the way things *are*." Seeing these thoughts as truths
> is a recipe for endless conflict among people.
>
> Suspension of the thoughts is the bohmian antidote, the brilliant basis of
> the Bohmian Dialogue model.
>
> But before such suspension is possible, these felt "truths" that we are
> fighting so innocently and nobly for, need to be seen as assumptions because
> as "truths" they are not suspendable.
>
It's quite possible to suspend and reflect-examine thoughts we think are
true. Even if we do it on a "what if" basis.
>
> Whether directly or indirectly, objections to Bohm's work on thought and
> dialogue are objections to the very basis of it which is the suspension of
> the assumptions. We see no good reason at all for finding an opening in what
> we believe are "truths." This belief that our assumptions are "truths" is
> the initial assumption that we see no need to suspend. But suspension of the
> assumptions is to Bohm Dialogue as the seed of the tree is to the tree.
> Without that dialogical seed of suspension all our talk is typical talk.
>
> -- funny
>
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:13:02 +0900 eric scott nelson <
> obsolete_idiom@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
> i don't know much about anything. i just joined this list serve. i am
> thinking of unsubscribing though. it sounds like you are all interested in
> have arguments and debates and personal judgement is not suspended.
> Although by even saying this i am passing judgement. for that i am sorry.
>
> straight off of wikipedia (quotes from "On Dialogue"):
>
> *1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the
> conversation.* "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what
> to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must
> have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any
> conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and free"
> (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"
>
> *2. Each individual agrees suspend judgement in the conversation.*(Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does not
> attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it assumptions, and
> as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will come up. What is
> called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you neither carry them
> out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do you disbelieve them;
> you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"
>
> *3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are
> as honest and transparent as possible.* (Specifically, if the individual
> has a "good idea" that he might otherwise hold back from the group because
> it is too controversial, he will share that idea in this conversation.)
>
> *4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals
> ideas in the conversation.* (The group often comes up with ideas that are
> far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the
> conversation began.)
>
> is there room for spontaneity in an online forum of dialogue?
>
> -esn
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:34:51 -0500
>
> My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you
> to write something new. -- Susan
>
> I think you're right. Why do you suppose they're so bothered?
>
> It couldn't be because they are as phony and fucked up as everyone else,
> could it? -- dl
>
>
> <http://www.knology.net/%7Edonlay/>
>
> *From:* Susan Clemons <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2007 10:28 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously dl. Remember,
> William has some pretty strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to have
> her own set of pretty strong ideas. And you well know that all of us have
> problems with your insistence on repeating the same ideas for so many years
> without expanding on them which pretty much covers df I think. And doesn't
> insanity simply mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is what I would call
> insane but of course, that's just my preference. When it comes to ideas of
> suicide, that seemed to come out of left field for me. But I haven't been
> around for a while so don't know. My guess is they are simply getting
> desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new.
>
> Susan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Don Lay <donlay@knology.net>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
>
> But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for
> exploring ... quoting db remarks about *self and self-image and
> self-identity*?
>
> You see any danger of insanity or suicide about inquiring into what Bohm
> wrote about self, identity, Korzybski's map, etc? -- dl
>
> <http://www.knology.net/%7Edonlay/>
>
> *From:* Susan Clemons <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in regards
> to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his
> remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for
> your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own imagination
> when it comes to others and our communications with each other. William is
> simply a very direct person and doesn't always bother with the "niceties"
> that many of us have been taught are "necessary". My experience of William
> is that he's actually one of the biggest softies on this list and has a huge
> heart. He's also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he
> thinks. Both of those things make him a favorite of mine.
>
> Susan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Don Lay <donlay@knology.net>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction
> of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate
> and to the point. Thanks again.
>
> However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches
> above the position of *henchman* or *henchwench* or *df-groupie,* but I
> could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be
> again.
>
> What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is
> Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about *self and self-image* drove him,
> Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
>
> Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires
> into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding *self and self-identity*?
>
> Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by
> exploring Bohm's proposals regarding *self* and *self-imagery*? Unless
> you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
>
> As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care
> less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
>
> Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring *what Bohm
> wrote*, and *the meaning* of *Bohm's thought* as a* *quantum theorist. --
> dl
>
>
>
> *From:* Susan Clemons <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about
> dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life.
> That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group
> and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his
> thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or
> "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or
> "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would
> say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck
> in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal"
> doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite
> well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal
> the better you are able to function and the more you step away from
> fragmentation.
>
> dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he
> recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the
> purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny
> the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to
> recognize.
>
> Susan
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Discover the new Windows Vista Learn more!<http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE>
>
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
--
Irene
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 16:14:50 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Sat Dec 1 16:17:29 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712010712h3036c1ben408c9d2808a5bbac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071201.091824.2428.96.ae.dropper@juno.com>
<c47283890712010712h3036c1ben408c9d2808a5bbac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712010714o4c85be49i4112b7feee1bda81@mail.gmail.com>
ADDENDUM - I'm reading 'objections' as critique. Forgive the comments below
if I've understood incorrectly. Perhaps you could supply a word that more
accurately conveys your meaning.
On Dec 1, 2007 10:12 AM, Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whether directly or indirectly, objections to Bohm's work on thought and
> dialogue are objections to the very basis of it which is the suspension of
> the assumptions.
>
> I: Sorry, Pat. I think you're WAY off base here. It almost sounds
> dogmatic. Fundamentalist. I wonder if you've suspended and examined that
> thought.
>
> On Dec 1, 2007 9:17 AM, <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > Before we discover that our thoughts are not "the truth" they are taken
> > as "the truth." But they only represent different perspectives and different
> > angles and not "truths."
> >
>
>
> > And since they are different and only fragments they will seem to be in
> > conflict with one another.
> >
>
> And here. My objection is the word 'will'. Particularly in the context
> of the other comments. What about "can", or 'may', or "the proposal is"?
>
>
> > So when we hear other perspectives we feel like we are in conflict with
> > one another and we will argue and we will fight and we will think that we
> > are fighting for the "truth" because we see our thoughts as "truths," as
> > "simply telling us the way things *are*." Seeing these thoughts as
> > truths is a recipe for endless conflict among people.
> >
> > Suspension of the thoughts is the bohmian antidote, the brilliant basis
> > of the Bohmian Dialogue model.
> >
>
>
> > But before such suspension is possible, these felt "truths" that we are
> > fighting so innocently and nobly for, need to be seen as assumptions because
> > as "truths" they are not suspendable.
> >
>
> It's quite possible to suspend and reflect-examine thoughts we think are
> true. Even if we do it on a "what if" basis.
>
> >
> > Whether directly or indirectly, objections to Bohm's work on thought and
> > dialogue are objections to the very basis of it which is the suspension of
> > the assumptions. We see no good reason at all for finding an opening in what
> > we believe are "truths." This belief that our assumptions are "truths" is
> > the initial assumption that we see no need to suspend. But suspension of the
> > assumptions is to Bohm Dialogue as the seed of the tree is to the tree.
> > Without that dialogical seed of suspension all our talk is typical talk.
> >
> > -- funny
> >
> > On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:13:02 +0900 eric scott nelson <
> > obsolete_idiom@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >
> > i don't know much about anything. i just joined this list serve. i am
> > thinking of unsubscribing though. it sounds like you are all interested in
> > have arguments and debates and personal judgement is not suspended.
> > Although by even saying this i am passing judgement. for that i am sorry.
> >
> > straight off of wikipedia (quotes from "On Dialogue"):
> >
> > *1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the
> > conversation.* "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what
> > to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must
> > have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any
> > conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and free"
> > (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"
> >
> > *2. Each individual agrees suspend judgement in the conversation.*(Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does not
> > attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it assumptions, and
> > as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will come up. What is
> > called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you neither carry them
> > out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do you disbelieve them;
> > you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"
> >
> > *3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously
> > are as honest and transparent as possible.* (Specifically, if the
> > individual has a "good idea" that he might otherwise hold back from the
> > group because it is too controversial, he will share that idea in this
> > conversation.)
> >
> > *4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals
> > ideas in the conversation.* (The group often comes up with ideas that
> > are far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the
> > conversation began.)
> >
> > is there room for spontaneity in an online forum of dialogue?
> >
> > -esn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > From: donlay@knology.net
> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
> > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:34:51 -0500
> >
> > My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get
> > you to write something new. -- Susan
> >
> > I think you're right. Why do you suppose they're so bothered?
> >
> > It couldn't be because they are as phony and fucked up as everyone else,
> > could it? -- dl
> >
> >
> > <http://www.knology.net/%7Edonlay/>
> >
> > *From:* Susan Clemons <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
> > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2007 10:28 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
> >
> > Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously dl. Remember,
> > William has some pretty strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to have
> > her own set of pretty strong ideas. And you well know that all of us have
> > problems with your insistence on repeating the same ideas for so many years
> > without expanding on them which pretty much covers df I think. And doesn't
> > insanity simply mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is what I would call
> > insane but of course, that's just my preference. When it comes to ideas of
> > suicide, that seemed to come out of left field for me. But I haven't been
> > around for a while so don't know. My guess is they are simply getting
> > desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new.
> >
> > Susan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Don Lay <donlay@knology.net>
> > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
> >
> > It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
> >
> > But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for
> > exploring ... quoting db remarks about *se