From landmana at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 00:04:46 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Sun Dec 2 00:07:30 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-W366284002ABDA169E25593FF720@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <355906.53156.qm@web57402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi Eric Scott Nelson. Bohm Dialogue is a group. As such: Any typical structures and dynamics and behaviors of groups apply. AL
eric scott nelson <obsolete_idiom@hotmail.com> wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }
i don't know much about anything. i just joined this list serve. i am thinking of unsubscribing though. it sounds like you are all interested in have arguments and debates and personal judgement is not suspended. Although by even saying this i am passing judgement. for that i am sorry.
straight off of wikipedia (quotes from "On Dialogue"):
1. The group agrees that no group-level decisions will be made in the conversation. "...In the dialogue group we are not going to decide what to do about anything. This is crucial. Otherwise we are not free. We must have an empty space where we are not obliged to anything, nor to come to any conclusions, nor to say anything or not say anything. It's open and free" (Bohm, "On Dialogue", p.18-19.)"
2. Each individual agrees suspend judgement in the conversation. (Specifically, if the individual hears an idea he doesn't like, he does not attack that idea.) "...people in any group will bring to it assumptions, and as the group continues meeting, those assumptions will come up. What is called for is to suspend those assumptions, so that you neither carry them out nor suppress them. You don't believe them, nor do you disbelieve them; you don't judge them as good or bad...(Bohm, "On Dialogue", p. 22.)"
3. As these individuals "suspend judgement" they also simultaneously are as honest and transparent as possible. (Specifically, if the individual has a "good idea" that he might otherwise hold back from the group because it is too controversial, he will share that idea in this conversation.)
4. Individuals in the conversation try to build on other individuals ideas in the conversation. (The group often comes up with ideas that are far beyond what any of the individuals thought possible before the conversation began.)
is there room for spontaneity in an online forum of dialogue?
-esn
---------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:34:51 -0500
My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new. -- Susan
I think you're right. Why do you suppose they're so bothered?
It couldn't be because they are as phony and fucked up as everyone else, could it? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well, I wouldn't take any of it too seriously dl. Remember, William has some pretty strong ideas about the brain. Irene seems to have her own set of pretty strong ideas. And you well know that all of us have problems with your insistence on repeating the same ideas for so many years without expanding on them which pretty much covers df I think. And doesn't insanity simply mean "not normal"? Like I said, normal is what I would call insane but of course, that's just my preference. When it comes to ideas of suicide, that seemed to come out of left field for me. But I haven't been around for a while so don't know. My guess is they are simply getting desperate in their attempts to get you to write something new.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
It doesn't bother me to have been wrong and I believe you understand.
But tell me please ... whence this talk of insanity and suicide for exploring ... quoting db remarks about self and self-image and self-identity?
You see any danger of insanity or suicide about inquiring into what Bohm wrote about self, identity, Korzybski's map, etc? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hahaha! Well dl, I think you could be making a similar mistake in regards to William that he seems to be making about you. I don't think he meant his remarks to be those of a henchman. I think they were said with concern for your well being. But we all seem to get caught up with our own imagination when it comes to others and our communications with each other. William is simply a very direct person and doesn't always bother with the "niceties" that many of us have been taught are "necessary". My experience of William is that he's actually one of the biggest softies on this list and has a huge heart. He's also very honest and direct and isn't afraid to say what he thinks. Both of those things make him a favorite of mine.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Susan, I confess not being surprised that what you say is in the direction of the true and real. Thanks. Further, what you say seems fairly accurate and to the point. Thanks again.
However, I confess erring about W. I had him at more than a few notches above the position of henchman or henchwench or df-groupie, but I could have been wrong. No problem, I 've being wrong before and will be again.
What I don't understand is this talk about insanity and suicide. Is Factor saying that what Bohm wrote about self and self-image drove him, Bohm, insane? Or drove df insane?
Or is he saying that he, df, fears insanity and/or suicide if he inquires into and explores the writings of Bohm regarding self and self-identity?
Why? What possible reason can there be for fearing insanity or suicide by exploring Bohm's proposals regarding self and self-imagery? Unless you are saying that it drove him insane. Did he ever talk of suicide?
As for Bohm liking or not liking people quoting him, I couldn't care less. My view is that only a sicky would even think of that.
Again, for the umpteenth time, my interest is in exploring what Bohm wrote, and the meaning of Bohm's thought as a quantum theorist. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Don't you think you're getting a little carried away with your ideas about dl here William? Lots of people pursue deep spiritual meaning in life. That doesn't mean they are close to suicide. dl has been part of this group and saying these same things for years. I don't see any problem with his thinking. Is it "ordinary? God, I hope not. Who wants to be ordinary or "normal"? I don't know a single person on this list who sounds ordinary or "normal". I think I would run like the plague if that happened. I would say that the people who sound ordinary and normal are the ones who are stuck in fragmentation. But the fact that any of us are not ordinary or "normal" doesn't mean that we can't recognize normal and ordinary and function quite well. Actually I would say the more you step outside of ordinary and normal the better you are able to function and the more you step away from fragmentation.
dl has never said he has no self or identity. He has simply said that he recognizes that most ideas of self are frozen images constructed for the purpose of dealing with social reality that ignore, or sometimes even deny the deeper sense of self that many of us on this list have learned to recognize.
Susan
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From donlay at knology.net Sun Dec 2 03:04:22 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 2 03:07:05 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01>
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
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From frantisekplessl at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 03:49:06 2007
From: frantisekplessl at yahoo.com (Mr. Frantisek Plessl)
Date: Sun Dec 2 03:51:51 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <C376FD49.F5AC%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <978542.50371.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Something taken for granted
One takes life for granted among many other things.
One has forgotten this true and real responsibility in
life holistically. One assumed many things, and
therefore one expects and is dependent psychologically
on many or one immensely. One has made life into
terrible thing called living. Life has become struggle
in everyday life and living. To live means to struggle
right from the beginning until the end. Assumptions
have lead man into chaotic life and living without
much creativity. Why do I have to assume anything?
Assumptions mean that I already know, and therefore I
do not have to learn anymore or I do not have to
investigate further. Do I choose to, which assumption
I want to investigate into? Assumption is an
assumption and therefore investigation has to take a
place across the whole board. Who is doing this
investigation? Is it this real I? Is it this false I?
Either way, in order to investigate into any
assumption there must be some sort of clarity of a
mind rather then this polluted mind as it is. If, I am
confuse human being inwardly then whatever
investigation is taken place from such a state of a
mind will ultimately lead to more confuse state. It is
perhaps only in a state of such a clarity of a mind
occasionally when one comes upon something new and
different never being touch by such confused mind, and
therefore profound change takes place inwardly. This
fundamental change therefore is not dependent on
knowledge. How can one clear up such messy
consciousness? Twenty people in one room cannot come
upon the same meaning as one undivided force of the
nature. Why is it? To blame assumptions means I
already know but perhaps there is a deeper problem
going on.
Fanda
Fanda Plessl
e-mail: frantisekplessl@yahoo.com
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From donlay at knology.net Sun Dec 2 14:49:11 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 2 14:52:02 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004401c834ea$1fd73bd0$b5c16018@DL01>
"There may be a real self. We must not assume." ... Bohm
Anyone understand why "we must not assume"? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
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From donlay at knology.net Sun Dec 2 15:23:37 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 2 15:26:24 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <005301c834ee$edba00b0$b5c16018@DL01>
I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become. So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem. Someone can always come along and raise doubts about the "self esteem." So the self image(s) have to be defended. The order of time (succession) is the order of thought. Thought applied to self, leads to incoherence. Incoherence fogs intelligence and intelligence is required for the self to be informed in its becoming. -- Pat's quote of Bohm [highlight added]
What might be the meaning of this?
"If thought applied to self leads to incoherence", what about language applied to self?
Does this not suggest the idea that thought about self, language about self, can be incoherent pollution? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Sun Dec 2 18:31:21 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Sun Dec 2 18:34:24 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01>
<005301c834ee$edba00b0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <002f01c83509$2b8fa0b0$db76480c@HOME>
Hmmmm.......so I think we are getting down to the nitty gritty here dl. This seems to be the basis for where you are getting your ideas of the SOS. I would use different language to talk about this so lets see if I can put it into my own language first and then talk about imagination and how I think about the role of imagination in all of this.
Bohm: "I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become."
I would say that what Bohm is describing here is one way that the imagination can be used, but not the only way. He also uses the term "makes me" which I think is an error.
Bohm: "So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem."
My understanding is that Bohm used the word thought to represent what I would call our unconscious processes and the word thinking to represent what I would call our conscious processes. The important part of what he is saying here has to do with how we have been taught to think about and so create feelings of value to my way of thinking. If we have learned to assign value to objects that are outside of us rather than to the quality of our own experience, then we may do just what Bohm describes and simply see ourselves as an object and try to assign value according to the way we assign value to other objects. This does indeed create an SOS. And this way of assigning value seems to be what Bohm is referring to as "esteeming ourselves". This is a market place type of value where objects are traded on the open market and the value is determined by what the group has determined is most popular for possession. This gives the market place the power to assign value to the individual and strips the individual of the power to create value from the satisfaction and fulfillment that comes from their own experience.
There are many other ways to use our imagination than to simply create an image and allow the market place to assign value to it. We can also use our imagination to step into that image and feel what it is like to have the experience we are imagining right now. This latter is a playful way to use the imagination for experimenting with change and try out new experiences to see what kind of choices we want to make for ourselves. We create choices from this based on the amount of satisfaction and fulfillment we get from the type of experience we are allowing ourselves to create. Time is then used as a way to compare the quality of what we are experiencing in our imagination with the quality we have experienced in our memories of the past. The comparison is then with our own experience rather than with the value we imagine others to be assigning to us. And our choices can then become a form of personal and social growth and development.
Bohm's ideas of thought seems to refer to the way we have made the market place mentality of assigning value to objects a "reality" and so think this is all there is to be experienced in terms of value. It then becomes a mechanical way of assigning value to ourselves and happens unconsciously and automatically. If the SOS is the only way we believe we have for experiencing value then we will automatically choose that value. Maturana has shown that all consciousness seeks value fulfillment. Becoming conscious of this and learning to consciously step back into the picture and place the value on the quality of our own experience reverses the process. At the same time it puts conscious experience of feelings back into the process. What we and those around us feel become immediate and known as well as immediately knowing the source of our feelings.
I would also say that language plays a huge role in all of this. The way we define and use words is what triggers and organizes our thoughts and so directs our imagination. Nouns create an image/object and put it at a distance and can trigger our market place mentality. Verbs are words that can trigger us to step into the picture and have an immediate experience of what we are imagining.
The key is learning to become conscious of our imagination and the significance it plays in our lives. My experience has been that imagination is central to creativity and change. But using it without consciousness can lead to stagnation and can be the source of conflict and what Bohm liked to call pollution.
Well, that's an attempt to put my thinking about this into words dl.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become. So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem. Someone can always come along and raise doubts about the "self esteem." So the self image(s) have to be defended. The order of time (succession) is the order of thought. Thought applied to self, leads to incoherence. Incoherence fogs intelligence and intelligence is required for the self to be informed in its becoming. -- Pat's quote of Bohm [highlight added]
What might be the meaning of this?
"If thought applied to self leads to incoherence", what about language applied to self?
Does this not suggest the idea that thought about self, language about self, can be incoherent pollution? -- dl
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From donlay at knology.net Sun Dec 2 18:47:55 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 2 18:50:41 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01>
<005301c834ee$edba00b0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <006e01c8350b$78282b70$b5c16018@DL01>
Thought applied to self, leads to incoherence. Incoherence fogs intelligence and intelligence is required for the self to be informed in its becoming. -- Bohm
These are radical ideas and deserve special attention, maybe parsing, careful explication.
Some things to notice here: One is that when Bohm directs attention to self here, it is not just your imaginary self. Attention is directed to self itself. One way to deal with this is to look at the systems using self, at the processes comprising self. As soon as we do that, we can see that talking about the processes by which self awareness occurs does not cause one to drop into an abyss never to be seen again.
For instance, instead of simply acting and pretending the imagery displayed in mind or thought is all that is or that that imaginary scenario is an accurate representation of what actually is, it is possibly to talk about and investigate those processes. This is one reason quantum theory has such importance.
Another thing is that the implications of the quantum discoveries leads some physicists to look at the whole of what is known, and to inquire about the foundations of Western Civilization, e.g., Greek thought about thought. For example, I believe Capra says modern scientists are now saying what some great Spiritualists have always been saying, and Bohm begins talking about the beginnings of Greek Philosophy, thought.
It might be significant that Universal Order as reason and meaning begins with Greek thought, namely the thought of Parmenides and Heraclitus ... who says that the order of the universe is present but hidden. Some of the Greek thinkers held that truth, ti to on, is that which is hidden.
Anyone else ever experience that truth or "what actually is/was" is/was hidden beneath ignorance, ignorant assumptions, maybe even insane ego trips? -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become. So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem. Someone can always come along and raise doubts about the "self esteem." So the self image(s) have to be defended. The order of time (succession) is the order of thought. Thought applied to self, leads to incoherence. Incoherence fogs intelligence and intelligence is required for the self to be informed in its becoming. -- Pat's quote of Bohm [highlight added]
What might be the meaning of this?
"If thought applied to self leads to incoherence", what about language applied to self?
Does this not suggest the idea that thought about self, language about self, can be incoherent pollution? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
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From donlay at knology.net Sun Dec 2 18:53:16 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 2 18:56:01 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01><005301c834ee$edba00b0$b5c16018@DL01>
<002f01c83509$2b8fa0b0$db76480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <007d01c8350c$3756bc50$b5c16018@DL01>
... that's an attempt to put my thinking about this into words dl. -- Susan
Great! Maybe the important thing is to inquire into db/thought. As you can see, few people are able to inquire.
Gotta run just now, but am looking forward to working on this later.
Thanks for attention to this. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
Hmmmm.......so I think we are getting down to the nitty gritty here dl. This seems to be the basis for where you are getting your ideas of the SOS. I would use different language to talk about this so lets see if I can put it into my own language first and then talk about imagination and how I think about the role of imagination in all of this.
Bohm: "I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become."
I would say that what Bohm is describing here is one way that the imagination can be used, but not the only way. He also uses the term "makes me" which I think is an error.
Bohm: "So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem."
My understanding is that Bohm used the word thought to represent what I would call our unconscious processes and the word thinking to represent what I would call our conscious processes. The important part of what he is saying here has to do with how we have been taught to think about and so create feelings of value to my way of thinking. If we have learned to assign value to objects that are outside of us rather than to the quality of our own experience, then we may do just what Bohm describes and simply see ourselves as an object and try to assign value according to the way we assign value to other objects. This does indeed create an SOS. And this way of assigning value seems to be what Bohm is referring to as "esteeming ourselves". This is a market place type of value where objects are traded on the open market and the value is determined by what the group has determined is most popular for possession. This gives the market place the power to assign value to the individual and strips the individual of the power to create value from the satisfaction and fulfillment that comes from their own experience.
There are many other ways to use our imagination than to simply create an image and allow the market place to assign value to it. We can also use our imagination to step into that image and feel what it is like to have the experience we are imagining right now. This latter is a playful way to use the imagination for experimenting with change and try out new experiences to see what kind of choices we want to make for ourselves. We create choices from this based on the amount of satisfaction and fulfillment we get from the type of experience we are allowing ourselves to create. Time is then used as a way to compare the quality of what we are experiencing in our imagination with the quality we have experienced in our memories of the past. The comparison is then with our own experience rather than with the value we imagine others to be assigning to us. And our choices can then become a form of personal and social growth and development.
Bohm's ideas of thought seems to refer to the way we have made the market place mentality of assigning value to objects a "reality" and so think this is all there is to be experienced in terms of value. It then becomes a mechanical way of assigning value to ourselves and happens unconsciously and automatically. If the SOS is the only way we believe we have for experiencing value then we will automatically choose that value. Maturana has shown that all consciousness seeks value fulfillment. Becoming conscious of this and learning to consciously step back into the picture and place the value on the quality of our own experience reverses the process. At the same time it puts conscious experience of feelings back into the process. What we and those around us feel become immediate and known as well as immediately knowing the source of our feelings.
I would also say that language plays a huge role in all of this. The way we define and use words is what triggers and organizes our thoughts and so directs our imagination. Nouns create an image/object and put it at a distance and can trigger our market place mentality. Verbs are words that can trigger us to step into the picture and have an immediate experience of what we are imagining.
The key is learning to become conscious of our imagination and the significance it plays in our lives. My experience has been that imagination is central to creativity and change. But using it without consciousness can lead to stagnation and can be the source of conflict and what Bohm liked to call pollution.
Well, that's an attempt to put my thinking about this into words dl.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become. So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem. Someone can always come along and raise doubts about the "self esteem." So the self image(s) have to be defended. The order of time (succession) is the order of thought. Thought applied to self, leads to incoherence. Incoherence fogs intelligence and intelligence is required for the self to be informed in its becoming. -- Pat's quote of Bohm [highlight added]
What might be the meaning of this?
"If thought applied to self leads to incoherence", what about language applied to self?
Does this not suggest the idea that thought about self, language about self, can be incoherent pollution? -- dl
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From landmana at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 19:06:10 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Sun Dec 2 19:09:03 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <349400.64002.qm@web57409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an unfounded premise. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url (#default#vml) } v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url (#default#vml) } What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
---------------------------------
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info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From frantisekplessl at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 20:51:29 2007
From: frantisekplessl at yahoo.com (Mr. Frantisek Plessl)
Date: Sun Dec 2 20:54:23 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
In-Reply-To: <002f01c83509$2b8fa0b0$db76480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <260989.13017.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
The self must be perfect! This perfection or stable
and secure inward psyche is foremost importance of the
self. To obtain or reach such state of psyche being
secure and stable is of absolute importance otherwise
everything goes to chaos. Not to get hurt or being
able to get hurt under any circumstances. It is
therefore for such images of the inward psyche about
the self that gets hurt. This inward structure is in
place unconsciously as well consciously. Unconsciously
it is structure through implicit thought where one
picks up behavioral patterns unconsciously through the
society as a whole. Consciously one is force to become
somebody psychologically through various patterns of
behavior, which is obviously very limited process. I
have to become somebody inwardly as well outwardly but
inwardly this instable and insecure psyche is causing
tremendous conflict. As parents and society as a whole
impose inward psychological images on the individual,
and individual creates own psychological images about
the self, and therefore the battle is on. It doesn?t
matter what image I have rather presence of such image
being very real and alive, which governs the whole
individual actions and reactions. If, one image is
gone I then pick up another image. Therefore, if I
perceive one image as being right and true, I then
perceive such image of the foremost importance. I am
then creating this inward value and meaning, which I
must have it. Not only there is this image that I
think I have but as well image that I do have, and
then image that I want to have or reach. In order to
function coherently one is creating endless field of
images regards to the self and the world around. It is
like one is force to many patterns of life and living
through these patterns of society as they are. Take
example of such image as being good? It really means
many things to many people or it represents many
different things to many different people. It is
therefore for such believe what stands for being good
and how to achieve such state of being good. One is
then rather following sets of behavioral patterns
established ahead, which are set for individual to
follow without questioning. One also perceive oneself
as being good or bad but needless to say such
prejudgment notions are arising from already form
image about what it means to be good or bad. To be
creative human being is therefore not to follow
already set up behavioral patterns but rather
investigate and question all the patterns aiming at
the psyche. If, thought process collects and selects
from any given domain and then abstract thought
process comes in to choose what is most valuable and
important with it is meaning attached then it is has
it is own value for doing so. When aimed at psyche
with the same structure and mechanism then it is much
more complicated only because this psyche is highly
instable and insecure. It is also very confusing
because this self is really unknown process and always
changing and very alive. Things are rather very
unsubtle as they are outwardly stable up to the point.
Fanda
Fanda Plessl
e-mail: frantisekplessl@yahoo.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Sun Dec 2 22:58:54 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Sun Dec 2 23:01:51 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <349400.64002.qm@web57409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <349400.64002.qm@web57409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DF7AC6E4-C97E-4B91-A712-847B33D53416@dc.rr.com>
DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some of
his questions.
But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile, he
might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how Bohm
fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question, AL.
Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is
incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I too,
consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance of this
dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it probably tries to
bring more territory than a lot of readers want to handle. It may
also offer some insight into the sort of stuff that Eric has objected
to.
don (donF)
On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
> Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As
> for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an
> unfounded premise. AL
>
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker
> re group dynamics?
>
> What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
>
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of
> re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does
> not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Hi Al. Welcome.
>
> Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-
> image derive from De Mare?
>
> Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited
> meaning.
>
> Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
>
> What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
>
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi fellow listserv-members -
> I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare
> brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of
> his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of
> contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the
> proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things
> off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this
> quest? Thank you.
> AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> What horseshit!
>
>
> From: william
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> >I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped
> the trap.
> >Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then
> what?
>
> Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then
> he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
>
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo
> Mobile. Try it now.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donlay at knology.net Sun Dec 2 23:08:00 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 2 23:11:05 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01><005301c834ee$edba00b0$b5c16018@DL01>
<002f01c83509$2b8fa0b0$db76480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <009d01c8352f$cdc4f030$b5c16018@DL01>
My understanding is that Bohm used the word thought to represent what I would call our unconscious processes and the word thinking to represent what I would call our conscious processes. -- Susan
I believe Thought as a System has Bohm saying that thought presents and re-presents those processes which make up and present the notion of personal identity. Maybe he says the notions of personal identity are displayed in mind.
Keep in mind that identity or idem from the late Latin must be repeated, i.e., re-presented.
On this view, it seems Bohm's view is that thought and thinking are foundationally prior to the identity because it is tas telling us that we have identity and that consciousness is "ours", i.e., that consciousness is a property of the identity. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
Hmmmm.......so I think we are getting down to the nitty gritty here dl. This seems to be the basis for where you are getting your ideas of the SOS. I would use different language to talk about this so lets see if I can put it into my own language first and then talk about imagination and how I think about the role of imagination in all of this.
Bohm: "I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become."
I would say that what Bohm is describing here is one way that the imagination can be used, but not the only way. He also uses the term "makes me" which I think is an error.
Bohm: "So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem."
My understanding is that Bohm used the word thought to represent what I would call our unconscious processes and the word thinking to represent what I would call our conscious processes. The important part of what he is saying here has to do with how we have been taught to think about and so create feelings of value to my way of thinking. If we have learned to assign value to objects that are outside of us rather than to the quality of our own experience, then we may do just what Bohm describes and simply see ourselves as an object and try to assign value according to the way we assign value to other objects. This does indeed create an SOS. And this way of assigning value seems to be what Bohm is referring to as "esteeming ourselves". This is a market place type of value where objects are traded on the open market and the value is determined by what the group has determined is most popular for possession. This gives the market place the power to assign value to the individual and strips the individual of the power to create value from the satisfaction and fulfillment that comes from their own experience.
There are many other ways to use our imagination than to simply create an image and allow the market place to assign value to it. We can also use our imagination to step into that image and feel what it is like to have the experience we are imagining right now. This latter is a playful way to use the imagination for experimenting with change and try out new experiences to see what kind of choices we want to make for ourselves. We create choices from this based on the amount of satisfaction and fulfillment we get from the type of experience we are allowing ourselves to create. Time is then used as a way to compare the quality of what we are experiencing in our imagination with the quality we have experienced in our memories of the past. The comparison is then with our own experience rather than with the value we imagine others to be assigning to us. And our choices can then become a form of personal and social growth and development.
Bohm's ideas of thought seems to refer to the way we have made the market place mentality of assigning value to objects a "reality" and so think this is all there is to be experienced in terms of value. It then becomes a mechanical way of assigning value to ourselves and happens unconsciously and automatically. If the SOS is the only way we believe we have for experiencing value then we will automatically choose that value. Maturana has shown that all consciousness seeks value fulfillment. Becoming conscious of this and learning to consciously step back into the picture and place the value on the quality of our own experience reverses the process. At the same time it puts conscious experience of feelings back into the process. What we and those around us feel become immediate and known as well as immediately knowing the source of our feelings.
I would also say that language plays a huge role in all of this. The way we define and use words is what triggers and organizes our thoughts and so directs our imagination. Nouns create an image/object and put it at a distance and can trigger our market place mentality. Verbs are words that can trigger us to step into the picture and have an immediate experience of what we are imagining.
The key is learning to become conscious of our imagination and the significance it plays in our lives. My experience has been that imagination is central to creativity and change. But using it without consciousness can lead to stagnation and can be the source of conflict and what Bohm liked to call pollution.
Well, that's an attempt to put my thinking about this into words dl.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become. So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem. Someone can always come along and raise doubts about the "self esteem." So the self image(s) have to be defended. The order of time (succession) is the order of thought. Thought applied to self, leads to incoherence. Incoherence fogs intelligence and intelligence is required for the self to be informed in its becoming. -- Pat's quote of Bohm [highlight added]
What might be the meaning of this?
"If thought applied to self leads to incoherence", what about language applied to self?
Does this not suggest the idea that thought about self, language about self, can be incoherent pollution? -- dl
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donlay at knology.net Sun Dec 2 23:16:26 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 2 23:19:15 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01><005301c834ee$edba00b0$b5c16018@DL01>
<002f01c83509$2b8fa0b0$db76480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <00a701c83530$fb442a70$b5c16018@DL01>
The important part of what he is saying here has to do with how we have been taught to think about and so create feelings of value to my way of thinking. -- Susan
I believe I see your view, but it seems Bohm is saying we have been taught to think and act as if the personal self is primary, i.e., prior to the processes that comprise the biological entity.
I believe Bohm presents the idea that the subtle is the primary actuality rather than the "reality" of the social, personal identity. I believe he says in Dialogue that there ought to be a way to think of what's going on "in there without bringing in a self".
Maybe it is possible to think of consciousness as a medium ... maybe like the implicate in which the explicate is displayed. -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
Hmmmm.......so I think we are getting down to the nitty gritty here dl. This seems to be the basis for where you are getting your ideas of the SOS. I would use different language to talk about this so lets see if I can put it into my own language first and then talk about imagination and how I think about the role of imagination in all of this.
Bohm: "I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become."
I would say that what Bohm is describing here is one way that the imagination can be used, but not the only way. He also uses the term "makes me" which I think is an error.
Bohm: "So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem."
My understanding is that Bohm used the word thought to represent what I would call our unconscious processes and the word thinking to represent what I would call our conscious processes. The important part of what he is saying here has to do with how we have been taught to think about and so create feelings of value to my way of thinking. If we have learned to assign value to objects that are outside of us rather than to the quality of our own experience, then we may do just what Bohm describes and simply see ourselves as an object and try to assign value according to the way we assign value to other objects. This does indeed create an SOS. And this way of assigning value seems to be what Bohm is referring to as "esteeming ourselves". This is a market place type of value where objects are traded on the open market and the value is determined by what the group has determined is most popular for possession. This gives the market place the power to assign value to the individual and strips the individual of the power to create value from the satisfaction and fulfillment that comes from their own experience.
There are many other ways to use our imagination than to simply create an image and allow the market place to assign value to it. We can also use our imagination to step into that image and feel what it is like to have the experience we are imagining right now. This latter is a playful way to use the imagination for experimenting with change and try out new experiences to see what kind of choices we want to make for ourselves. We create choices from this based on the amount of satisfaction and fulfillment we get from the type of experience we are allowing ourselves to create. Time is then used as a way to compare the quality of what we are experiencing in our imagination with the quality we have experienced in our memories of the past. The comparison is then with our own experience rather than with the value we imagine others to be assigning to us. And our choices can then become a form of personal and social growth and development.
Bohm's ideas of thought seems to refer to the way we have made the market place mentality of assigning value to objects a "reality" and so think this is all there is to be experienced in terms of value. It then becomes a mechanical way of assigning value to ourselves and happens unconsciously and automatically. If the SOS is the only way we believe we have for experiencing value then we will automatically choose that value. Maturana has shown that all consciousness seeks value fulfillment. Becoming conscious of this and learning to consciously step back into the picture and place the value on the quality of our own experience reverses the process. At the same time it puts conscious experience of feelings back into the process. What we and those around us feel become immediate and known as well as immediately knowing the source of our feelings.
I would also say that language plays a huge role in all of this. The way we define and use words is what triggers and organizes our thoughts and so directs our imagination. Nouns create an image/object and put it at a distance and can trigger our market place mentality. Verbs are words that can trigger us to step into the picture and have an immediate experience of what we are imagining.
The key is learning to become conscious of our imagination and the significance it plays in our lives. My experience has been that imagination is central to creativity and change. But using it without consciousness can lead to stagnation and can be the source of conflict and what Bohm liked to call pollution.
Well, that's an attempt to put my thinking about this into words dl.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become. So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem. Someone can always come along and raise doubts about the "self esteem." So the self image(s) have to be defended. The order of time (succession) is the order of thought. Thought applied to self, leads to incoherence. Incoherence fogs intelligence and intelligence is required for the self to be informed in its becoming. -- Pat's quote of Bohm [highlight added]
What might be the meaning of this?
"If thought applied to self leads to incoherence", what about language applied to self?
Does this not suggest the idea that thought about self, language about self, can be incoherent pollution? -- dl
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donlay at knology.net Sun Dec 2 23:21:30 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 2 23:24:21 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
References: <975807.61044.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><022501c83487$a8c41070$b5c16018@DL01><005301c834ee$edba00b0$b5c16018@DL01>
<002f01c83509$2b8fa0b0$db76480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <00b101c83531$b24efdd0$b5c16018@DL01>
Maturana has shown that all consciousness seeks value fulfillment. -- Susan
Maybe so, but does Maturana show that the personal self is foundationally prior to consciousness?
Is it possible to think of ontic consciousness "seeking value"? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] SOS and imagination
Hmmmm.......so I think we are getting down to the nitty gritty here dl. This seems to be the basis for where you are getting your ideas of the SOS. I would use different language to talk about this so lets see if I can put it into my own language first and then talk about imagination and how I think about the role of imagination in all of this.
Bohm: "I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become."
I would say that what Bohm is describing here is one way that the imagination can be used, but not the only way. He also uses the term "makes me" which I think is an error.
Bohm: "So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem."
My understanding is that Bohm used the word thought to represent what I would call our unconscious processes and the word thinking to represent what I would call our conscious processes. The important part of what he is saying here has to do with how we have been taught to think about and so create feelings of value to my way of thinking. If we have learned to assign value to objects that are outside of us rather than to the quality of our own experience, then we may do just what Bohm describes and simply see ourselves as an object and try to assign value according to the way we assign value to other objects. This does indeed create an SOS. And this way of assigning value seems to be what Bohm is referring to as "esteeming ourselves". This is a market place type of value where objects are traded on the open market and the value is determined by what the group has determined is most popular for possession. This gives the market place the power to assign value to the individual and strips the individual of the power to create value from the satisfaction and fulfillment that comes from their own experience.
There are many other ways to use our imagination than to simply create an image and allow the market place to assign value to it. We can also use our imagination to step into that image and feel what it is like to have the experience we are imagining right now. This latter is a playful way to use the imagination for experimenting with change and try out new experiences to see what kind of choices we want to make for ourselves. We create choices from this based on the amount of satisfaction and fulfillment we get from the type of experience we are allowing ourselves to create. Time is then used as a way to compare the quality of what we are experiencing in our imagination with the quality we have experienced in our memories of the past. The comparison is then with our own experience rather than with the value we imagine others to be assigning to us. And our choices can then become a form of personal and social growth and development.
Bohm's ideas of thought seems to refer to the way we have made the market place mentality of assigning value to objects a "reality" and so think this is all there is to be experienced in terms of value. It then becomes a mechanical way of assigning value to ourselves and happens unconsciously and automatically. If the SOS is the only way we believe we have for experiencing value then we will automatically choose that value. Maturana has shown that all consciousness seeks value fulfillment. Becoming conscious of this and learning to consciously step back into the picture and place the value on the quality of our own experience reverses the process. At the same time it puts conscious experience of feelings back into the process. What we and those around us feel become immediate and known as well as immediately knowing the source of our feelings.
I would also say that language plays a huge role in all of this. The way we define and use words is what triggers and organizes our thoughts and so directs our imagination. Nouns create an image/object and put it at a distance and can trigger our market place mentality. Verbs are words that can trigger us to step into the picture and have an immediate experience of what we are imagining.
The key is learning to become conscious of our imagination and the significance it plays in our lives. My experience has been that imagination is central to creativity and change. But using it without consciousness can lead to stagnation and can be the source of conflict and what Bohm liked to call pollution.
Well, that's an attempt to put my thinking about this into words dl.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
I cannot see myself, except in image, and that image will have limits, and seeing my self in time, as becoming, makes me project two images, that which I am, and that which I intend to become. So the subject projects a subject and an object. How is this done? This is done by way of thought, which makes images, images that esteem themselves and are vulnerable to loss of esteem. Someone can always come along and raise doubts about the "self esteem." So the self image(s) have to be defended. The order of time (succession) is the order of thought. Thought applied to self, leads to incoherence. Incoherence fogs intelligence and intelligence is required for the self to be informed in its becoming. -- Pat's quote of Bohm [highlight added]
What might be the meaning of this?
"If thought applied to self leads to incoherence", what about language applied to self?
Does this not suggest the idea that thought about self, language about self, can be incoherent pollution? -- dl
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