From rk33 at bigpond.com  Sat Nov  4 00:03:09 2006
From: rk33 at bigpond.com (Robyn Knight)
Date: Sun Nov  5 01:05:54 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
References: <012D600E-AF61-4BEC-BC09-A1C85B61ADBC@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <454BCAA9.00000A.02756@AMDPC>

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From ae.dropper at juno.com  Sat Nov  4 05:07:05 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 06:12:45 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
Message-ID: <20061103.230710.1696.3.ae.dropper@juno.com>

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From rk33 at bigpond.com  Sat Nov  4 11:28:40 2006
From: rk33 at bigpond.com (Robyn Knight)
Date: Sun Nov  5 12:31:55 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
References: <20061103.230710.1696.3.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <454C6B58.000004.02412@AMDPC>

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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 13:07:58 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 14:10:49 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
In-Reply-To: <454BCAA9.00000A.02756@AMDPC>
References: <012D600E-AF61-4BEC-BC09-A1C85B61ADBC@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
	<454BCAA9.00000A.02756@AMDPC>
Message-ID: <44807DDE-2935-4582-867E-5451C2AEB72F@donfactor.demon.co.uk>

Thanks for this. Its  very useful bit of insight for me. If you still  
want off just send a brief note and I will unsubscribe you,
don factor
On 3 Nov 2006, at 23:03, Robyn Knight wrote:

> Hello Don
> This is in no way meant to offend.
> Well actually yes it is that bad for me. It reminds me of the  
> continual chatter I used to have in my head:)) (I'm smiling when  
> saying this)  I am a very simple person with a huge interest in the  
> work of Krishnmurti and a passion for Prof David Bohm and have  
> found that for me just to facilitate the work for others in via  
> viewing's (from home, parks, University) then share food that we  
> all bring, its great. If they require further information I lend it  
> to them to take home and in turn they share it with others.
> I was feeling a little alone and was excited when I found your  
> site, (wow to get right to the source) however the brief exposure  
> to this Internet dialogue had made me feel just great being quite.
> What you are all doing is wonderful however I am not an  
> intellectual and nor are most of the people I share the information  
> with. I do however have a unique way of knowing my target group and  
> can present in a way that gets their interest. The idea is to get  
> them to watch intently then the rest is up to them. And so the  
> movement goes.
> If it is ok with you I will keep in touch as I have so much to  
> learn and Im sure you would be one of the people to ask
> Kindest regards
> Robyn
>
> <060105~1.GIF>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Don Factor
> Date: 11/04/06 08:30:49
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
>
> Gosh, you just joined.
> Is it that bad?
> don
> On 3 Nov 2006, at 22:17, Robyn Knight wrote:
>
> Hi Guy
> Can someone please advise me how to remove myself from this  
> dialogue email list. I am not too familiar with computers etc and  
> am not sure how to do this.
> Regards Robyn
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Gill Wyatt
> Date: 11/04/06 06:50:04
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
> Hi Don,
> Yeah I'm sure these things come and go and yes I think it is more  
> revealing
> and/or difficult to talk about feelings, emotions etc.
> And I also know what you been about 'partaking of'... No judgement  
> intended
> but sometimes it is my experience that those at the periphery, by  
> their
> partaking, are sometimes more deeply engaged.
> I guess there is simply difference ... In so many different ways. I  
> have
> felt sometimes that some ways here are embraced more fully than  
> others ...
> And after an exploration into something more than language  
> exploration,
> there seems to be a return to the language exploration.
> I feel good speaking out ... Thanks Joachim for starting this and Don,
> Rodger and everyone else participating and partaking!!
> Gill
> on 3/11/06 18:08, Don Factor at donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > Don't worry, we have been into the power stuff at various times and
> > no doubt will be again.
> > These things kind of come and go in waves. And it is considerably
> > more difficult to talk about
> > emotions and feelings than it is about language and thought. It
> > requires a kind of taking risks
> > with language, perhaps exposing something our selves that doesn't
> > really want to be revealed.
> > That's really what all this talk about self image and self-world- 
> view
> > is really about - I think.
> >
> > Also, your comments make me think back to Bohm's comment that
> > participation involves both
> > active taking part and also partaking of. You need both. And
> > according to a link I sent a week
> > or so ago ninety percent of members of forums and discussion groups
> > never write anything. So
> > we're not unusual. That's one reason why I have sort of why I quit
> > complaining about all the silent
> > members of this group. I just have to remember that they are
> > partaking and when it becomes important
> > for them to take part actively they will, just as you have.
> >
> > don
> >
> > On 3 Nov 2006, at 17:45, Gill Wyatt wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Joachim, Rodger and all interested in this theme,
> >>
> >> I'm not sure how much I can say yet about this ... But it did feel
> >> important
> >> to step away from the periphery (in some regard) to say something.
> >>
> >> I think a core/periphery distinction exists in every discussion
> >> group to
> >> some degree whether its decreed simply from how much people are
> >> engaged, or
> >> how much people are actively participating, or whether it has an
> >> additional
> >> dimension attached which derives from who holds the power within
> >> the group,
> >> who determines what is 'right' (I hasten to say, however I don't
> >> operate
> >> within a right/wrong dichotomy), or what is the dominant  
> culture. What
> >> weight is given to who's contributions.
> >>
> >> This discussion group seems to be more interested in  
> intellectual type
> >> explorations of language rather than looking at these sort of  
> 'power
> >> dynamics' ... Yet of course such power dynamics inhabit the very
> >> words that
> >> we use to communicate. I do see a place for senses, feelings,
> >> emotions some
> >> of the time but it seems as if the intellectual is given more  
> weight.
> >>
> >> This isn't about me being wary of the intellect, I guess my
> >> difficulty is
> >> that I can't separate it from senses, feelings, emotions,
> >> intuitions etc.
> >>
> >> Gill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> on 2/11/06 15:31, Joachim Faust at joachimfaust@earthlink.net  
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Rodger,
> >>>
> >>> Well, I think your question could lead to some interesting  
> insights
> >>> into the nature of Bohm-Dialogue. My "line of
> >>> thinking" was: initially, some people here (Rogier, Owen, Gill)
> >>> identified themselves as being on the periphery of this
> >>> e-mail dialogue. I am of course not sure what each of them  
> means by
> >>> this, and probably they all mean something slightly
> >>> (or even totally) different, but anyway, this act of "self-
> >>> localization" rang a bell with me. So did the fact that all  
> three of
> >>> them
> >>> seemed to have some sort of "concern" about this dialogue (e.g.
> >>> Gill's heart vs. mind-dichotomy).
> >>>
> >>> In any case, this seems to indicate there is such a thing here, a
> >>> core and a periphery.
> >>> How can this be measured? Well, perhaps it's not a matter of
> >>> distance, as you seem to suggest, but one of other quantifiable
> >>> properties:
> >>> the core could be defined as a certain level of activity (such  
> as how
> >>> often to you participate, how many words, messages you are  
> producing,
> >>> etc.)
> >>> Katherine responded to my initial post saying something like  
> "as far
> >>> as I am concerned, you don't have to be on the
> >>> periphery," which could lead one to conclude that there is no need
> >>> for the periphery, every participant could/should be in the core.
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me that everywhere in nature (and culture) there is  
> core
> >>> and periphery (the sun and its planets; the nucleus
> >>> of the atom vs. the electrons orbiting it; London vs. the rest of
> >>> England, etc.) Both depend on each other, and each have different
> >>> functions, which contribute
> >>> to the whole.
> >>>
> >>> Now, if people on the periphery of this dialogue have concerns  
> about
> >>> it (that are not heard, perhaps?), then what does this
> >>> tell us about this particular (natural/cultural) process?
> >>>
> >>> I am aware that a lot of what I say here is based on my  
> speculation
> >>> about what the other people on the periphery actually mean,
> >>> which is why I suggested a "dialogue of the periphery."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Joachim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 03.11.2006, at 05:00, bohm_dialogue-request@david-bohm.org  
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Rodger __ hi Joachim, re: periphery -- please define how  
> distances
> >>>> are measured from what is believed as central to bohm_dialogue?
> >>>>
> >>>> Since that measuring is applied to everyone, by way of  
> conclussions
> >>>> drawn, is it a conclussion we can each play our part in?
> >>>>
> >>>> Or is everyone simply placed in specific locations according  
> to the
> >>>> opinion of whoever does the measuring?
> >>>>
> >>>> How do you decide what defines the core and periphery of
> >>>> dialogue? _R
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:38:58 -0600
> >>>> From: Joachim Faust <joachimfaust@earthlink.net>
> >>>> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Re: periphery
> >>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >>>> .
> >>>> Joachim
> >>>>
> >>>> PS: are there any other people on the "periphery" who can/would
> >>>> like to share their experience?
> >>>> .
> >>>
> >>> Joachim Faust
> >>> joachimfaust@earthlink.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> info:
> >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>>
> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> dialogue facilitator:
> >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >>> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
> _______________________________________________
> --
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> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> <IMSTP9.gif>
> <Cream_stripes_cream_border2.gif>
> <060105~1.GIF>
> <IMSTP9.gif>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>

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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com  Sat Nov  4 14:40:49 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 15:43:51 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Strawman
In-Reply-To: <20061105110002.020362456A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OFB44AFC4D.DDFF71E6-ON8525721C.004A2A50-8525721C.004B2603@dialogos.com>







Rodger __true enough. And just to clarify what my friend had meant;  when
training to attack with bayonet -blade at end of rifle- they had to stab at
strawmen with the sergeant yelling that the enemy soldier is nothing but a
dirty xxx strawman. But on the front lines the truth was that the enemy
soldier always turned out to be another human being. _R
.
.
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:39:39 +0000
From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Strawman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
A strawman is one that is too easy to knock down. A lot of people
build up what look like very powerful arguments but their opponents
are often just strawmen and their arguments carry no weight.

don
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From DStulberg at msw-law.com  Sat Nov  4 15:12:56 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Sun Nov  5 16:13:13 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695D04C4@msw2k.msw.local>

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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com  Sat Nov  4 15:22:38 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 16:25:36 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
In-Reply-To: <20061105110002.020362456A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF114D3908.94BD8F87-ON8525721C.004BFA4A-8525721C.004EFA0F@dialogos.com>







Rodger __hi Gill, you describe a few ways that core & periphery can be
seen, and each apply within their given context. Core & periphery also
apply to interactions in almost countless numbers of ways.

Almost every definition of core & periphery will apply to each interaction.
Those definitions are core-periphery interactions taking place within the
mind of each individual -- how they sees themself in regard to others,
near-or-far, agree-or-disagree, and they then project accordingly onto the
larger group exchange.

Personally, in relation to dialogue, the way I tend to see core is; anyone
who offers their insight, thought, feeling, into the dialogue is at the
center, is the core of the process during that offering. And when we stay
quiet we are doing a quiet part of being core.  When we disengage from the
dialogue completely we become periphery to the dialogue.

And mind or soul connection/oneness among us human beings will tend to
continue influencing the dialogue regardless of whether a person is
actively a member or not. _R
.
.
From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
I think a core/periphery distinction exists in every discussion group to
some degree whether its decreed simply from how much people are engaged, or
how much people are actively participating, or whether it has an additional
dimension attached which derives from who holds the power within the group,
who determines what is 'right' (I hasten to say, however I don't operate
within a right/wrong dichotomy), or what is the dominant culture. What
weight is given to who's contributions.
.
.
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com  Sat Nov  4 15:25:38 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Sun Nov  5 16:28:28 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
In-Reply-To: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695D04C4@msw2k.msw.local>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F349F1054DBE295DCFE71AA5FD0@phx.gbl>

Yes, Dorothy.  Those are the things I value, too.  I also checked out 
Ellison.  I hope she comes to NYC, I would like to hear her speak, a 
workshop, etc.  Thanks for posting that.   k


>From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
>Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 09:12:56 -0500
>
>I am intrigued by your message. What you are doing sounds so human and
>natural and developing and so relating across age.   It reminds me of
>the days when the University of Tennessee started a discipline called
>Collaborative Learning.  Dialogue and Bohm were a big element in the
>process of collaborative learning.  But the beauty of those early days
>(about 7 years ago) was that we "knew" nothing and were just exploring.
>I fear that the proram has become set in stone without that continual
>searching for where we were going.  Back then we searched, now I believe
>it is more what did someone (an expert) say.  Even we can become
>that--look to someone else's thinking.
>The part of this list serve that I like is when people report or
>describe their own experiences, viewing them in light of the search that
>apparently Bohm was on throughout his life.  Sometimes there seems to be
>"this is what Bohm said" without stretching on as I think he would be
>doing.
>Those of you who knew him, did he ever feel and "ownership" of what he
>was thinking and doing and being?  Did he ever stop D
>
>________________________________
>
>From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
>[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Robyn Knight
>Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 5:29 AM
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
>
>
>Hello Pat,
>Thank you for your reply. I am not sure what I can contribute at this
>stage as I feel its all a little out of my league. At the moment from
>what I have read it seems to me that dialogue (though I'm not sure what
>that is) seems very complicated.
>I am from Brisbane Australia and have only been involved with
>Krishnamurti and David Bohm for a very short time. I would be happy to
>share my experiences regarding my viewing's but they are quite
>unremarkable.
>I have a son and a daughter attending university and I am a part time
>student myself. It all started when I was researching quantum physics on
>line and found David Bohm's work which lead me to his work with
>Krishnamurti. I purchase several dvds and after a few months have quite
>a large library.
>I just started watching the dvds for my own benefit and they resinated
>with me instantly. My son became very interested. He then told his uni
>friends and they came to view. They all bring food to share and we
>watch, chat and eat. None of us know much so we are very open to each
>others comments. It is such an individual process and words don't seem
>to be able to convey what happens, so we seem to smile a lot. In
>response to a lot of questions the statement " what does it really
>matter" comes up a lot.  The average age is about 24 and all are
>studying psychology, natural medicine or medicine and their insights
>leave me speechless. (I am 52 and feel I am the baby.)
>  At the moment the only dvdss I facilitate are dialogues and
>conversations of Krishnamurti and various other speakers, my favorite
>being of course David Bohm. I also show some of Father Anthony de Mellos
>work, his book Awareness has been a favorite for many years. I have only
>recently found his dvds.
>The other viewing are with local members of the community in which I
>share. They are a little different as people want to share their Gugus,
>teachers and general love vibration feelings. These conversations feel
>heavy and go around in circles. At these meetings I start by showing
>things like "What the Bleep, or secrets etc.  So by design at these
>viewing's there is very little conversion after viewing's and I lend
>people various dvds to take home if they have questions to ponder for
>themselves and with other friends.  (A little long winded but I hope it
>explains a little)
>Regards Robyn.
>
>-------Original Message-------
>
>From: ae.dropper@juno.com
>Date: 11/04/06 14:10:10
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
>
>What would you like to see here Robyn? Each participant changes the
>whole thing.
>I wonder where you are and would love to hear more about the "via
>viewings," what it is you facilitate, and ALL about your interest in
>Bohm and Krishnamurti. I almost never 'meet' anyone who has a passion
>for Prof David Bohm.
>
>pat
>
>On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 09:03:09 +1000 "Robyn Knight" <rk33@bigpond.com>
>writes:
>Hello Don
>This is in no way meant to offend.
>Well actually yes it is that bad for me. It reminds me of the continual
>chatter I used to have in my head:)) (I'm smiling when saying this)  I
>am a very simple person with a huge interest in the work of Krishnmurti
>and a passion for Prof David Bohm and have found that for me just to
>facilitate the work for others in via viewing's (from home, parks,
>University) then share food that we all bring, its great. If they
>require further information I lend it to them to take home and in turn
>they share it with others.
>I was feeling a little alone and was excited when I found your site,
>(wow to get right to the source) however the brief exposure to this
>Internet dialogue had made me feel just great being quite.
>What you are all doing is wonderful however I am not an intellectual and
>nor are most of the people I share the information with. I do however
>have a unique way of knowing my target group and can present in a way
>that gets their interest. The idea is to get them to watch intently then
>the rest is up to them. And so the movement goes.
>If it is ok with you I will keep in touch as I have so much to learn and
>Im sure you would be one of the people to ask
><http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?lang=9&version=5002206&setup_id=7&
>aff_id=54475&addon=IncrediMail&id=95202&guid=6D306466-0DA7-42CE-B847-459
>ECD4EFE3E> Kindest regards
>Robyn
>
><http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?lang=9&version=5002206&setup_id=7&
>aff_id=54475&addon=IncrediMail&id=95202&guid=6D306466-0DA7-42CE-B847-459
>ECD4EFE3E>
>
>-------Original Message-------
>
>From: Don Factor <mailto:donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>Date: 11/04/06 08:30:49
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
>
>Gosh, you just joined.
>Is it that bad?
>don
>
>On 3 Nov 2006, at 22:17, Robyn Knight wrote:
>
>Hi Guy
>Can someone please advise me how to remove myself from this dialogue
>email list. I am not too familiar with computers etc and am not sure how
>to do this.
>Regards Robyn
>
>
>   <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=509&lang=9>
><< IMSTP9.gif >>
><< Cream_stripes_cream_border2.gif >>


>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com  Sat Nov  4 15:29:55 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 16:33:01 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
In-Reply-To: <20061105110002.020362456A@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF1B45F3B5.6EBECC74-ON8525721C.004F5E77-8525721C.004FA501@dialogos.com>






Rodger __hi Gill, I firmly believe that if you see-sense something missing
in a group process it is because no one else sees it as clearly as you do
-- therefore you are the missing link._R
.
.
From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
In so many different ways. I have felt sometimes that some ways here are
embraced more fully than others ...
.
.
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 15:37:00 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 16:39:51 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Strawman
In-Reply-To: <OFB44AFC4D.DDFF71E6-ON8525721C.004A2A50-8525721C.004B2603@dialogos.com>
References: <OFB44AFC4D.DDFF71E6-ON8525721C.004A2A50-8525721C.004B2603@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <8741A65E-E956-4060-8B34-4A4DDE543A98@donfactor.demon.co.uk>

Not so in philosophical debate.
don
On 4 Nov 2006, at 13:40, Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com wrote:

> Rodger __true enough. And just to clarify what my friend had meant;  
> when training to attack with bayonet -blade at end of rifle- they  
> had to stab at strawmen with the sergeant yelling that the enemy  
> soldier is nothing but a dirty xxx strawman. But on the front lines  
> the truth was that the enemy soldier always turned out to be  
> another human being. _R
> .
> .
> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:39:39 +0000
> From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Strawman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> .
> A strawman is one that is too easy to knock down. A lot of people
> build up what look like very powerful arguments but their opponents
> are often just strawmen and their arguments carry no weight.
>
> don
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>

From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 17:21:10 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 18:23:58 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
In-Reply-To: <OF114D3908.94BD8F87-ON8525721C.004BFA4A-8525721C.004EFA0F@dialogos.com>
References: <OF114D3908.94BD8F87-ON8525721C.004BFA4A-8525721C.004EFA0F@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <86BB3CEA-23FD-4478-8A46-CCB493D0803C@donfactor.demon.co.uk>

It struck me that this core periphery-distinction might also be  
similar to hierarchical ones. I recall saying to one of the top dogs  
in an organisation that I was once involved in that I, along with a  
lot of others, were unhappy with the hierarchy that had evolved in a  
group that was supposed to be non-hierarchical. He said, "but I'm not  
aware of any hierarchy." He was an old friend and I could see that he  
was being completely honest with me. But after thinking about it for  
a while I came to see that when you are at the top of the hill, you  
don't notice that there's not a lot of room up there and you just  
assume that everyone who wanted could be up there with you.

don

On 4 Nov 2006, at 14:22, Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com wrote:

> Rodger __hi Gill, you describe a few ways that core & periphery can  
> be seen, and each apply within their given context. Core &  
> periphery also apply to interactions in almost countless numbers of  
> ways.
>
> Almost every definition of core & periphery will apply to each  
> interaction. Those definitions are core-periphery interactions  
> taking place within the mind of each individual -- how they sees  
> themself in regard to others, near-or-far, agree-or-disagree, and  
> they then project accordingly onto the larger group exchange.
>
> Personally, in relation to dialogue, the way I tend to see core is;  
> anyone who offers their insight, thought, feeling, into the  
> dialogue is at the center, is the core of the process during that  
> offering. And when we stay quiet we are doing a quiet part of being  
> core.  When we disengage from the dialogue completely we become  
> periphery to the dialogue.
>
> And mind or soul connection/oneness among us human beings will tend  
> to continue influencing the dialogue regardless of whether a person  
> is actively a member or not. _R
> .
> .
> From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> I think a core/periphery distinction exists in every discussion  
> group to
> some degree whether its decreed simply from how much people are  
> engaged, or
> how much people are actively participating, or whether it has an  
> additional
> dimension attached which derives from who holds the power within  
> the group,
> who determines what is 'right' (I hasten to say, however I don't  
> operate
> within a right/wrong dichotomy), or what is the dominant culture. What
> weight is given to who's contributions.
> .
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>

From ae.dropper at juno.com  Sat Nov  4 17:04:46 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 19:00:19 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spores?
Message-ID: <20061104.115517.1696.8.ae.dropper@juno.com>

Loving the game of "which of the new and relatively new
people might be peter krauss spores?" 

Absolutely fascinating (since there are definite limits to 
the skill of personality obscuration, i.e., definite signs
of personality revelation). Interesting how, when inventing a 
character, feigned characteristics lack integrity with the 
invented character, but not with the original, more settled 
character (although some of these need to be "flipped" 
to their opposite). Interesting how the "invention" 
evolves. Perhaps this challenge will make the 
game even more interesting).

pat
From ae.dropper at juno.com  Sat Nov  4 17:54:57 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 19:00:20 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
Message-ID: <20061104.115517.1696.9.ae.dropper@juno.com>

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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com  Sat Nov  4 18:10:48 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Sun Nov  5 19:13:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spores?
In-Reply-To: <20061104.115517.1696.8.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F246942EF31CA9B4EFB783EA5FD0@phx.gbl>

Pat - do you mean Peter under a different name, or Zoe or Kris?  Or do you 
mean people who have those characteristic in common with the PZK trinity?  I 
correspond fairly regularly with Zoe, and can assure you that there is no 
one currently posting who sounds at all like the Zoe I am coming to know, 
hence the question.  I didn't even know we were into that game!   k


>From: ae.dropper@juno.com
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spores?
>Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 11:04:46 -0500
>
>Loving the game of "which of the new and relatively new
>people might be peter krauss spores?"
>
>Absolutely fascinating (since there are definite limits to
>the skill of personality obscuration, i.e., definite signs
>of personality revelation). Interesting how, when inventing a
>character, feigned characteristics lack integrity with the
>invented character, but not with the original, more settled
>character (although some of these need to be "flipped"
>to their opposite). Interesting how the "invention"
>evolves. Perhaps this challenge will make the
>game even more interesting).
>
>pat
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 19:01:32 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 20:04:25 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spores?
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F246942EF31CA9B4EFB783EA5FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F246942EF31CA9B4EFB783EA5FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FC364F9E-1F09-4B21-94ED-A5B393022E49@donfactor.demon.co.uk>

Nor did I, at least not at this moment. I wonder why Pat brought it  
up just now.
don
On 4 Nov 2006, at 17:10, Morgan Jett wrote:

> Pat - do you mean Peter under a different name, or Zoe or Kris?  Or  
> do you mean people who have those characteristic in common with the  
> PZK trinity?  I correspond fairly regularly with Zoe, and can  
> assure you that there is no one currently posting who sounds at all  
> like the Zoe I am coming to know, hence the question.  I didn't  
> even know we were into that game!   k
>
>
>> From: ae.dropper@juno.com
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spores?
>> Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 11:04:46 -0500
>>
>> Loving the game of "which of the new and relatively new
>> people might be peter krauss spores?"
>>
>> Absolutely fascinating (since there are definite limits to
>> the skill of personality obscuration, i.e., definite signs
>> of personality revelation). Interesting how, when inventing a
>> character, feigned characteristics lack integrity with the
>> invented character, but not with the original, more settled
>> character (although some of these need to be "flipped"
>> to their opposite). Interesting how the "invention"
>> evolves. Perhaps this challenge will make the
>> game even more interesting).
>>
>> pat
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from  
> Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/ 
> mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>

From w at david-bohm.net  Sat Nov  4 19:10:30 2006
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Sun Nov  5 20:13:28 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
References: <20061103013655.68143.qmail@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <454CD796.000003.04804@VAIO-584793128F>

 
 
From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
>Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>does comes to us uninvited in many different times.
 
Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and it does come
through occasionally. 
Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the separation
from her husband, which was very painful until something happened that made
the pain turn into compassion. I know of several people where something
similar happened. In all cases they went through a rough time before it
happened. The potential is there but somehow it seems a rare thing. I tend
to think that our culture doesn't do very much to unfold this potential, in
fact it seems to be doing everything to suppress it. I was wondering if
something can be done to make passion part of our culture making it easier
for the individual to actualize the potential.
 
William
 
 
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 19:36:58 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 20:39:50 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
In-Reply-To: <454CD796.000003.04804@VAIO-584793128F>
References: <20061103013655.68143.qmail@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<454CD796.000003.04804@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <1F82D16A-829A-4C49-BDB4-F63344A52270@donfactor.demon.co.uk>

William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about  
passion and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It  
seems right and importtant, but I still can't get my head around what  
it is you are talking about.  At times you seem to talk about passion  
as a passive state and at others as a more intense one. Maybe I am  
just used to the intense aspec, like being passonate about someone or  
about chocolate. But now you seem to equate passion with compassion.  
Well, etymologically they have something to do with each other, but  
in experience I am not so sure. Could you try once again to explain  
what you mean when you use the term. Maybe an example, even fictional  
will do?

don

On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:

>
>
> From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
> >Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
> >pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
> >does comes to us uninvited in many different times.
>
> Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and it  
> does come through occasionally.
> Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the  
> separation from her husband, which was very painful until something  
> happened that made the pain turn into compassion. I know of several  
> people where something similar happened. In all cases they went  
> through a rough time before it happened. The potential is there but  
> somehow it seems a rare thing. I tend to think that our culture  
> doesn't do very much to unfold this potential, in fact it seems to  
> be doing everything to suppress it. I was wondering if something  
> can be done to make passion part of our culture making it easier  
> for the individual to actualize the potential.
>
> William
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>

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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com  Sat Nov  4 19:49:51 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Sun Nov  5 20:52:47 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
In-Reply-To: <1F82D16A-829A-4C49-BDB4-F63344A52270@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F25845004460362C0F5585CA5FD0@phx.gbl>

now you seem to equate passion with compassion.

Don - I see myself as passionately compassionate.  I also see the Buddhist 
practice of maitre as passionately compassionate.    k


>From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
>Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 18:36:58 +0000
>
>William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about  passion 
>and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It  seems right and 
>importtant, but I still can't get my head around what  it is you are 
>talking about.  At times you seem to talk about passion  as a passive state 
>and at others as a more intense one. Maybe I am  just used to the intense 
>aspec, like being passonate about someone or  about chocolate. But now you 
>seem to equate passion with compassion.  Well, etymologically they have 
>something to do with each other, but  in experience I am not so sure. Could 
>you try once again to explain  what you mean when you use the term. Maybe 
>an example, even fictional  will do?
>
>don
>
>On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
>> >Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>> >pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>> >does comes to us uninvited in many different times.
>>
>>Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and it  does 
>>come through occasionally.
>>Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the  
>>separation from her husband, which was very painful until something  
>>happened that made the pain turn into compassion. I know of several  
>>people where something similar happened. In all cases they went  through a 
>>rough time before it happened. The potential is there but  somehow it 
>>seems a rare thing. I tend to think that our culture  doesn't do very much 
>>to unfold this potential, in fact it seems to  be doing everything to 
>>suppress it. I was wondering if something  can be done to make passion 
>>part of our culture making it easier  for the individual to actualize the 
>>potential.
>>
>>William
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>


>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 20:03:06 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 21:05:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F25845004460362C0F5585CA5FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F25845004460362C0F5585CA5FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <49109B19-BF1E-44A1-A501-3786D87C58D7@donfactor.demon.co.uk>

So again maybe you can tell me what this is like. To me, to feel  
compassionate is like second nature. If I see someone suffering  
that's my response. But passion is reserved for something more  
positive. I've never heard of the Buddhist practice of maitre. could  
you tell me more?

don
On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:49, Morgan Jett wrote:

> now you seem to equate passion with compassion.
>
> Don - I see myself as passionately compassionate.  I also see the  
> Buddhist practice of maitre as passionately compassionate.    k
>
>
>> From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
>> Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 18:36:58 +0000
>>
>> William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about   
>> passion and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It   
>> seems right and importtant, but I still can't get my head around  
>> what  it is you are talking about.  At times you seem to talk  
>> about passion  as a passive state and at others as a more intense  
>> one. Maybe I am  just used to the intense aspec, like being  
>> passonate about someone or  about chocolate. But now you seem to  
>> equate passion with compassion.  Well, etymologically they have  
>> something to do with each other, but  in experience I am not so  
>> sure. Could you try once again to explain  what you mean when you  
>> use the term. Maybe an example, even fictional  will do?
>>
>> don
>>
>> On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
>>> >Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>>> >pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>>> >does comes to us uninvited in many different times.
>>>
>>> Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and  
>>> it  does come through occasionally.
>>> Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the   
>>> separation from her husband, which was very painful until  
>>> something  happened that made the pain turn into compassion. I  
>>> know of several  people where something similar happened. In all  
>>> cases they went  through a rough time before it happened. The  
>>> potential is there but  somehow it seems a rare thing. I tend to  
>>> think that our culture  doesn't do very much to unfold this  
>>> potential, in fact it seems to  be doing everything to suppress  
>>> it. I was wondering if something  can be done to make passion  
>>> part of our culture making it easier  for the individual to  
>>> actualize the potential.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your  
> cash with Live Search! http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/ 
> default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmtagline
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
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From ae.dropper at juno.com  Sat Nov  4 19:55:32 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 21:09:55 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
Message-ID: <20061104.140625.1696.15.ae.dropper@juno.com>

It struck me that this core periphery-distinction might also be  
similar to hierarchical ones. I recall saying to one of the top dogs  
in an organisation that I was once involved in that I, along with a  
lot of others, were unhappy with the hierarchy that had evolved in a  
group that was supposed to be non-hierarchical. He said, "but I'm not  
aware of any hierarchy." He was an old friend and I could see that he  
was being completely honest with me. But after thinking about it for  
a while I came to see that when you are at the top of the hill, you  
don't notice that there's not a lot of room up there and you just  
assume that everyone who wanted could be up there with you.
 
don

Interesting. 

But I read it differently the first time. I read it wrong. I thought you
said
there is a LOT of room up there. But you said "not" a lot of room. So is
there "room"
for the others?

My initial thought was "it's lonely at the top."

Is it lonely at the core?

Is it lonely on the periphery?

When we were doing the weekly groups we (at the core) decided that we
would
not open the group anymore for single newcomers. They usually feel SO out
of it.
We started taking them in bunches. AND, we now meet with them for an hour
before the actual dialogue so that THEY are the established circle and
the longer term participants are entering THEIR territory.

This is done mainly because people who feel really out of it don't
generally come back and it really affects the general numbers in the
circle.

pat

pat
From ae.dropper at juno.com  Sat Nov  4 19:43:38 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 21:09:55 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
Message-ID: <20061104.140625.1696.14.ae.dropper@juno.com>

This is a - if not THE - critical point. The "periphery" IS the "core."
Thanks, Rogder and Gill.

pat

On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 09:29:55 -0500 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
Rodger __hi Gill, I firmly believe that if you see-sense something
missing in a group process it is because no one else sees it as clearly
as you do -- therefore you are the missing link._R
.
.
From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
In so many different ways. I have felt sometimes that some ways here are
embraced more fully than others ...
.
.
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From ae.dropper at juno.com  Sat Nov  4 20:05:23 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 21:09:56 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spores?
Message-ID: <20061104.140625.1696.16.ae.dropper@juno.com>

Ever since after peter spent his first incarnation with us several years
ago, and was with us intensively for a couple of years, AS peter (or as
pit, etc.), a few of us who have been here long, have mentioned that they
had thought a certain newcomer was  peter again (with a new name) and
were interested when finding this suspicion either  wrong or right. This
continues. No one has mentioned it for awhile. But I brought it up
because I noticed it happening with the new voices. With each one of
them. There seems to be this easy, automatic process that occurs in
thought, regarding this. It's VERY fun. And it is based on an assumption
(which could be wrong - or turn wrong at any time) that peter
REALLY REALLY wants to be involved here.

I remember both Matti [pretty sure it was Matti] 
and I flashed on a possibility that Mr. Frantisek Plessl  
might be peter when he first came on. But it wasn't long 
before we were certain that he wasn't.

pat
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com  Sat Nov  4 20:47:58 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Sun Nov  5 21:50:53 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
In-Reply-To: <49109B19-BF1E-44A1-A501-3786D87C58D7@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F7E8CF59EF1199ED3ED2D7A5FD0@phx.gbl>

gladly - after supper.  Time out for a while.   k


>From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
>Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 19:03:06 +0000
>
>So again maybe you can tell me what this is like. To me, to feel  
>compassionate is like second nature. If I see someone suffering  that's my 
>response. But passion is reserved for something more  positive. I've never 
>heard of the Buddhist practice of maitre. could  you tell me more?
>
>don
>On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:49, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
>>now you seem to equate passion with compassion.
>>
>>Don - I see myself as passionately compassionate.  I also see the  
>>Buddhist practice of maitre as passionately compassionate.    k
>>
>>
>>>From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
>>>Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 18:36:58 +0000
>>>
>>>William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about   
>>>passion and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It   seems 
>>>right and importtant, but I still can't get my head around  what  it is 
>>>you are talking about.  At times you seem to talk  about passion  as a 
>>>passive state and at others as a more intense  one. Maybe I am  just used 
>>>to the intense aspec, like being  passonate about someone or  about 
>>>chocolate. But now you seem to  equate passion with compassion.  Well, 
>>>etymologically they have  something to do with each other, but  in 
>>>experience I am not so  sure. Could you try once again to explain  what 
>>>you mean when you  use the term. Maybe an example, even fictional  will 
>>>do?
>>>
>>>don
>>>
>>>On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
>>>> >Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>>>> >pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>>>> >does comes to us uninvited in many different times.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and  it  
>>>>does come through occasionally.
>>>>Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the   
>>>>separation from her husband, which was very painful until  something  
>>>>happened that made the pain turn into compassion. I  know of several  
>>>>people where something similar happened. In all  cases they went  
>>>>through a rough time before it happened. The  potential is there but  
>>>>somehow it seems a rare thing. I tend to  think that our culture  
>>>>doesn't do very much to unfold this  potential, in fact it seems to  be 
>>>>doing everything to suppress  it. I was wondering if something  can be 
>>>>done to make passion  part of our culture making it easier  for the 
>>>>individual to  actualize the potential.
>>>>
>>>>William
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>info:
>>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>info:
>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your  cash 
>>with Live Search! http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/ 
>>default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmtagline
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip  
http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001

From w at david-bohm.net  Sat Nov  4 21:05:07 2006
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Sun Nov  5 22:08:04 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
References: <1F82D16A-829A-4C49-BDB4-F63344A52270@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <454CF272.000004.04960@VAIO-584793128F>

 
 
From: Don Factor
William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about passion
and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It seems right and
importtant, but I still can't get my head around what it is you are talking
about. At times you seem to talk about passion as a passive state and at
others as a more intense one. Maybe I am just used to the intense aspec,
like being passonate about someone or about chocolate. But now you seem to
equate passion with compassion. Well, etymologically they have something to
do with each other, but in experience I am not so sure. Could you try once
again to explain what you mean when you use the term. Maybe an example, even
fictional will do? 
 
william: I cannot find that post from whoever it was; someone whose husband
left her, and she cried running through the woods in the rain. Don't you
remember? It's not all that long ago, a few days or a week maybe. That post
impressed me very much because that was a perfect example of someone who
discovered the passion point on her own, discovered all by herself how it
turned into compassion; an al round love for everything. When this happens
that's what I call the passion point. Passion is the gate to compassion. It
has to do with giving up resistance, accepting, and then the gate opens and
let's it through. As a result the energy is not used to block everything but
the energy can now flow and it feels like a relief. If you want to know more
see if you can find that post and talk to her. She may not have realized at
the time what gem she has discovered. Verbalizing these things is not easy..

 
 
 
 
 
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From ae.dropper at juno.com  Sat Nov  4 21:46:00 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Nov  5 22:50:57 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
Message-ID: <20061104.154707.1696.18.ae.dropper@juno.com>

I don't know if this will help don (and I don't at all know what I am
about to say) but it was the talking about "passion" on this list 
(several years ago) that really got me understanding, what it was, that
was SO difficult and elusive for me. It really got me started focusing on
one simple thing which is to "stay with" what is happening rather than
"running away" in some way or another. We talked about how this "Passion"
was an extremely "high energy" state. Both in its initiation and in its
"energy building" capacity (if not in actuality - in its lack of energy
draining). 

That "Passion" was the opposite of "Action" (etymologically) really made
an impression on me. I could see how the "non action" of "Passion" was a
"non action" in terms of "running away" (in its various forms). And that
the "non action" of "Passion" was a relaxation into a new source of
"action."

This "non action" is considered to be the "suffering" of something. And
it may indeed seem so or be so. But this is mostly in the anticipation;
the fear. And in the "inventions" of retrospect. And that "Passion" is
also connected to "patience" gives further credentials and sense
development. But 'Patience" is a thing that only seems like "suffering"
in its anticipation or in seeing it from the outside. Actual patience is
utter ease and doesn't seem like typical ideas of "patience." (which are
more like "tolerance").

"Passion" is "relaxation" of that which would be in control or that which
would want the moment to "be different" than what it is. But "passion" is
simultaneously freedom of movement or activity, unencumbered now by
conflicting efforts.

pat



On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 18:36:58 +0000 Don Factor
<donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes:
William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about passion
and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It seems right and
importtant, but I still can't get my head around what it is you are
talking about.  At times you seem to talk about passion as a passive
state and at others as a more intense one. Maybe I am just used to the
intense aspec, like being passonate about someone or about chocolate. But
now you seem to equate passion with compassion. Well, etymologically they
have something to do with each other, but in experience I am not so sure.
Could you try once again to explain what you mean when you use the term.
Maybe an example, even fictional will do?


don


On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:




From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
>Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>does comes to us uninvited in many different times.

Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and it does
come through occasionally. 
Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the
separation from her husband, which was very painful until something
happened that made the pain turn into compassion. I know of several
people where something similar happened. In all cases they went through a
rough time before it happened. The potential is there but somehow it
seems a rare thing. I tend to think that our culture doesn't do very much
to unfold this potential, in fact it seems to be doing everything to
suppress it. I was wondering if something can be done to make passion
part of our culture making it easier for the individual to actualize the
potential.

William





_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue


post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net


dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net


Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net


_______________________________________________
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 21:50:58 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 22:53:51 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
In-Reply-To: <454CF272.000004.04960@VAIO-584793128F>
References: <1F82D16A-829A-4C49-BDB4-F63344A52270@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
	<454CF272.000004.04960@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <BBDDEDAD-0A49-4FAD-B05E-C68068E9EDBB@donfactor.demon.co.uk>


On 4 Nov 2006, at 20:05, william wrote:

> that was a perfect example of someone who discovered the passion  
> point on her own, discovered all by herself how it turned into  
> compassion; an al round love for everything. When this happens  
> that's what I call the passion point. Passion is the gate to  
> compassion. It has to do with giving up resistance, accepting, and  
> then the gate opens and let's it through.

So, are you suggesting that passion is a form of resistance the cause  
of pain or suffering, and that a point comes - something like the  
maximum or breaking point of passion - and then this is transformed  
into compassion? That's what it sounds like.

Or am it just thick?



don

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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com  Sat Nov  4 20:56:32 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Sun Nov  5 22:59:19 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Core/Periphery
In-Reply-To: <454C6B58.000004.02412@AMDPC>
Message-ID: <C1724C90.7CA7%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>

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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 22:08:51 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 23:11:45 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
In-Reply-To: <20061104.154707.1696.18.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20061104.154707.1696.18.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <01854B22-5020-4B8C-B850-2F1CF1B34903@donfactor.demon.co.uk>

I'm not sure that this does much for me either. Etymologically,  
action means to act. And passion means to suffer. I am not sure that  
the suffering is of the sort that means non-action but rather refers  
to putting up with the pain. Compassion has to do with sharing the  
suffering or 'sustained' pain. It has the same root as patience. But  
even here, what do we mean by 'passionately in love"? for instance.  
Is this a state of passivity? Not in my lexicon.

Damn it, I am trying to be patient here, but it just doesn't compute.  
There is something there but I don't know what it is.
don

> I don't know if this will help don (and I don't at all know what I  
> am about to say) but it was the talking about "passion" on this  
> list  (several years ago) that really got me understanding, what it  
> was, that was SO difficult and elusive for me. It really got me  
> started focusing on one simple thing which is to "stay with" what  
> is happening rather than "running away" in some way or another. We  
> talked about how this "Passion" was an extremely "high energy"  
> state. Both in its initiation and in its "energy building" capacity  
> (if not in actuality - in its lack of energy draining).
>
> That "Passion" was the opposite of "Action" (etymologically) really  
> made an impression on me. I could see how the "non action" of  
> "Passion" was a "non action" in terms of "running away" (in its  
> various forms). And that the "non action" of "Passion" was a  
> relaxation into a new source of "action."
>
> This "non action" is considered to be the "suffering" of something.  
> And it may indeed seem so or be so. But this is mostly in the  
> anticipation; the fear. And in the "inventions" of retrospect. And  
> that "Passion" is also connected to "patience" gives further  
> credentials and sense development. But 'Patience" is a thing that  
> only seems like "suffering" in its anticipation or in seeing it  
> from the outside. Actual patience is utter ease and doesn't seem  
> like typical ideas of "patience." (which are more like "tolerance").
>
> "Passion" is "relaxation" of that which would be in control or that  
> which would want the moment to "be different" than what it is. But  
> "passion" is simultaneously freedom of movement or activity,  
> unencumbered now by conflicting efforts.
>
> pat
>
>
>
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 18:36:58 +0000 Don Factor  
> <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes:
> William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about  
> passion and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It  
> seems right and importtant, but I still can't get my head around  
> what it is you are talking about.  At times you seem to talk about  
> passion as a passive state and at others as a more intense one.  
> Maybe I am just used to the intense aspec, like being passonate  
> about someone or about chocolate. But now you seem to equate  
> passion with compassion. Well, etymologically they have something  
> to do with each other, but in experience I am not so sure. Could  
> you try once again to explain what you mean when you use the term.  
> Maybe an example, even fictional will do?
>
> don
>
> On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
>> >Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>> >pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>> >does comes to us uninvited in many different times.
>>
>> Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and it  
>> does come through occasionally.
>> Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the  
>> separation from her husband, which was very painful until  
>> something happened that made the pain turn into compassion. I know  
>> of several people where something similar happened. In all cases  
>> they went through a rough time before it happened. The potential  
>> is there but somehow it seems a rare thing. I tend to think that  
>> our culture doesn't do very much to unfold this potential, in fact  
>> it seems to be doing everything to suppress it. I was wondering if  
>> something can be done to make passion part of our culture making  
>> it easier for the individual to actualize the potential.
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>

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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 22:10:48 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Nov  5 23:13:39 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spores?
In-Reply-To: <20061104.140625.1696.16.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20061104.140625.1696.16.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <CC1252E8-B7D7-4DA8-92DD-8F2CD0BAA8CF@donfactor.demon.co.uk>

Pat. what inspired you to writ this post at this particular time?

I am asking for a particular reason that I am not yet at liberty to  
revea

don


On 4 Nov 2006, at 19:05, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:

> Ever since after peter spent his first incarnation with us several  
> years ago, and was with us intensively for a couple of years, AS  
> peter (or as pit, etc.), a few of us who have been here long, have  
> mentioned that they had thought a certain newcomer was  peter again  
> (with a new name) and were interested when finding this suspicion  
> either  wrong or right. This continues. No one has mentioned it for  
> awhile. But I brought it up because I noticed it happening with the  
> new voices. With each one of them. There seems to be this easy,  
> automatic process that occurs in thought, regarding this. It's VERY  
> fun. And it is based on an assumption (which could be wrong - or  
> turn wrong at any time) that peter
> REALLY REALLY wants to be involved here.
>
> I remember both Matti [pretty sure it was Matti]
> and I flashed on a possibility that Mr. Frantisek Plessl
> might be peter when he first came on. But it wasn't long
> before we were certain that he wasn't.
>
> pat
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>

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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com  Sat Nov  4 21:24:14 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Sun Nov  5 23:27:00 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
In-Reply-To: <01854B22-5020-4B8C-B850-2F1CF1B34903@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C172530E.7CAE%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>

I?ll have a go.  To me, passion is feeling, rather intense feeling.  If I
care about something, that?s a little lukewarm.  If I?m passionate about it,
I really care a lot!  It could be a passion of suffering or it could be a
passion of joy.  But it?s very powerful.  The word compassion means passion
or feeling WITH.  If I have compassion for others, I feel their passion as
my own.  If I am feeling everyone?s passion of suffering and passion of joy,
then who I am is expanded into almost a new realm of being (anyway, stage of
consciousness).  This was my interpretation of William?s reference to
Regina?s extremely beautiful post.

Lynne
On 11/4/06 3:08 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I'm not sure that this does much for me either. Etymologically, action means
> to act. And passion means to suffer. I am not sure that the suffering is of
> the sort that means non-action but rather refers to putting up with the pain.
> Compassion has to do with sharing the suffering or 'sustained' pain. It has
> the same root as patience. But even here, what do we mean by 'passionately in
> love"? for instance. Is this a state of passivity? Not in my lexicon.
> 
> Damn it, I am trying to be patient here, but it just doesn't compute. There is
> something there but I don't know what it is.
> don
> 
>>  
>> I don't know if this will help don (and I don't at all know what I am about
>> to say) but it was the talking about "passion" on this list? (several years
>> ago) that really got me understanding, what it was, that was SO difficult and
>> elusive for me. It really got me started focusing on one simple thing which
>> is to "stay with" what is happening rather than "running away" in some way or
>> another. We talked about how this "Passion" was an extremely "high energy"
>> state. Both in its initiation and in its "energy building" capacity (if not
>> in actuality - in its lack of energy draining).
>>  
>> ?
>>  
>> That "Passion" was the opposite of "Action" (etymologically) really made an
>> impression on me. I could see how the "non action" of "Passion" was a "non
>> action" in terms of "running away" (in its various forms). And that the "non
>> action" of "Passion" was a relaxation into a new source of "action."
>>  
>> ?
>>  
>> This "non action" is considered to be the "suffering" of something. And it
>> may indeed seem so or be so. But this is mostly in the anticipation; the
>> fear. And in the "inventions" of retrospect.?And that "Passion" is also
>> connected to "patience" gives further credentials and sense development. But
>> 'Patience" is a thing that only seems like "suffering" in its anticipation or
>> in seeing it from the outside. Actual patience is utter ease and doesn't seem
>> like typical ideas of "patience." (which are more like "tolerance").
>>  
>> ?
>>  
>> "Passion" is "relaxation" of that which would be in control or that which
>> would want the moment to "be different" than what it is. But "passion" is
>> simultaneously freedom of movement or activity, unencumbered now by
>> conflicting efforts.
>>  
>> ?
>>  
>> pat
>>  
>> ?
>>  
>> ?
>>  
>> ?
>>  
>> On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 18:36:58 +0000 Don Factor
>> <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>  
>>>   
>>> William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about passion
>>> and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It seems right and
>>> importtant, but I still can't get my head around what it is you are talking
>>> about.? At times you seem to talk about passion as a passive state and at
>>> others as a more intense one. Maybe I am just used to the intense aspec,
>>> like   being passonate about someone or about chocolate. But now you seem to
>>> equate   passion with compassion. Well, etymologically they have something
>>> to do with   each other, but in experience I am not so sure. Could you try
>>> once again to   explain what you mean when you use the term. Maybe an
>>> example, even fictional   will do?
>>>   
>>> 
>>>   
>>> don
>>>   
>>> 
>>>   
>>>   
>>> On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:
>>> 
>>>   
>>>>           
>>>>           ?
>>>>           ?
>>>>                     From: Mr. Frantisek           Plessl
>>>> <mailto:frantisekplessl@yahoo.com>
>>>>>           >Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>>>>>           >pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>>>>>           >does comes to us uninvited in many different times.
>>>>           ?
>>>>           Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and
>>>> it does come through occasionally.
>>>>           Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the
>>>> separation from her husband, which was very painful until something
>>>> happened that made the pain turn into compassion. I know of several
>>>> people where something similar happened. In all cases they went
>>>> through a rough time before?it happened. The potential is there
>>>> but somehow it seems a rare thing. I tend to think that our culture
>>>> doesn't do very much to unfold this potential, in fact it seems to be
>>>> doing everything to suppress it. I was wondering if something can be
>>>> done to make passion part of our culture making it easier for the
>>>> individual to actualize the potential.
>>>>           ?
>>>>           William
>>>>           ?
>>>>           ?
>>>>               
>>>>     
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>     
>>>> info:
>>>>     
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>     
>>>> 
>>>>     
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>     
>>>> 
>>>>     
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>     
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>     
>>>> 
>>>>     
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>     
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>     
>>>> 
>>>>     
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>     
>>>> 
>>>>     
>>>> 
>>> 
>>>   
>>> ?
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>> 
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>> 
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>> 
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> 
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> 
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> 
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> 


-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
   208 376-1336
   www.lifedirectionscoach.com
    (visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)


"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen


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From w at david-bohm.net  Sat Nov  4 22:41:52 2006
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Sun Nov  5 23:44:56 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
References: <01854B22-5020-4B8C-B850-2F1CF1B34903@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <454D0920.000006.04960@VAIO-584793128F>

 
 
From: Don Factor
>..Damn it, I am trying to be patient here, but it just doesn't compute. 
>There is something there but I don't know what it is.
 
Yes, it does sound like you don't know what this is all about. However, Pat
seems to be on the right track. Follow her; it is leading to somewhere.
 
William
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
I don't know if this will help don (and I don't at all know what I am about
to say) but it was the talking about "passion" on this list (several years
ago) that really got me understanding, what it was, that was SO difficult
and elusive for me. It really got me started focusing on one simple thing
which is to "stay with" what is happening rather than "running away" in some
way or another. We talked about how this "Passion" was an extremely "high
energy" state. Both in its initiation and in its "energy building" capacity
(if not in actuality - in its lack of energy draining). 
That "Passion" was the opposite of "Action" (etymologically) really made an
impression on me. I could see how the "non action" of "Passion" was a "non
action" in terms of "running away" (in its various forms). And that the "non
action" of "Passion" was a relaxation into a new source of "action."
This "non action" is considered to be the "suffering" of something. And it
may indeed seem so or be so. But this is mostly in the anticipation; the
fear. And in the "inventions" of retrospect. And that "Passion" is also
connected to "patience" gives further credentials and sense development. But
'Patience" is a thing that only seems like "suffering" in its anticipation
or in seeing it from the outside. Actual patience is utter ease and doesn't
seem like typical ideas of "patience." (which are more like "tolerance").
"Passion" is "relaxation" of that which would be in control or that which
would want the moment to "be different" than what it is. But "passion" is
simultaneously freedom of movement or activity, unencumbered now by
conflicting efforts.
pat
On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 18:36:58 +0000 Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co
uk> writes:
William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about passion
and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It seems right and
importtant, but I still can't get my head around what it is you are talking
about. At times you seem to talk about passion as a passive state and at
others as a more intense one. Maybe I am just used to the intense aspec,
like being passonate about someone or about chocolate. But now you seem to
equate passion with compassion. Well, etymologically they have something to
do with each other, but in experience I am not so sure. Could you try once
again to explain what you mean when you use the term. Maybe an example, even
fictional will do?


don


On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:


From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
>Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>does comes to us uninvited in many different times.
Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and it does come
through occasionally. 
Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the separation
from her husband, which was very painful until something happened that made
the pain turn into compassion. I know of several people where something
similar happened. In all cases they went through a rough time before it
happened. The potential is there but somehow it seems a rare thing. I tend
to think that our culture doesn't do very much to unfold this potential, in
fact it seems to be doing everything to suppress it. I was wondering if
something can be done to make passion part of our culture making it easier
for the individual to actualize the potential.
William



_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue


post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net


dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net


Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net


_______________________________________________






_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue


post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net


dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net


Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net


_______________________________________________






 
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From w at david-bohm.net  Sat Nov  4 22:57:21 2006
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Mon Nov  6 00:00:22 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
References: <C172530E.7CAE%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <454D0CAD.000008.04960@VAIO-584793128F>

 
 
From: Lynne Tolk
>...This was my interpretation of William?s reference 
>to Regina?s extremely beautiful post
 
Oh yes, it was Regina. I found it again. It was posted on 1 Nov. I'll
cut-and-paste it below...
 
William
 
Regina:
Here is a story; part universal, part personal.
Many years ago, my husband and I risked every thing we had to send him to
Flight school. I stayed up north (New England) with two jobs and two kids.
In my consulting job, I produced large-scale events (15,000 people) that
Connected employers to jobseekers. In my teaching job, I worked at a women?s
College.
 
Shortly after he finished his training, my husband met someone else. (While
This happens every day, when it happens personally, it is a shock.) I was in
Shock; I was a walking zombie. The first thing I did was take my sons with
Me into therapy.
 
I knew my husband?s affair would not last and I knew intuitively that our
21-year marriage had to end. However, although I knew this intellectually,
Emotionally I was still very attached. Two decades  is a long time.
 
What we had at this point were two sons, bills, and a highly mortgaged
Century-old, in-need-of-repair Victorian house. I had three goals: one was
To make sure my sons were OK; the other was to leave my husband with
Kindness (he did not want a divorce); and third, to end the marriage without
Filing bankruptcy.
 
The process took two years and here is how it went. I did not tell anyone
Including my family about our situation. I did not need a team of
Strategists to tell me how to cut off his legs.
 
Everyday around 6 AM, I drove to a reservoir in another town. It was during
My four-mile run that I allowed myself to cry. And, I cried and cried, and
Felt pain that I had never knew could exist. As I was running, I felt as
Though my body was splitting in half. I ran during rain, sunshine, sleet,
Snow. Sometimes I made the first tracks in the snow, since no one else was
Crazy enough to enter the woods during blizzard-type weather. I ran prior to
Teaching my first class or prior to client meetings.
 
One day, after almost a year of crying and running, I came out of the woods
And my face held no tears. Since it was raining that day, I wasn?t sure if
The moisture on my face was rain or tears. The next day, I ran again. This
Time, it wasn?t raining and there were no tears. What happened was, in an
Unexpected moment, I felt profound gratitude and love for this man that I
Knew half of my life. It was a kind of love I had never felt before; it was
A love of appreciation and gratitude. But here is the kicker, I felt this
Love towards everyone. I realized that all the sacrifices I had made for my
Husband, and for the nonprofit organizations I had worked for, was to win or
Get love. I had this CORE BELIEF that I could change someone ? that I could
Make someone else successful or happy. In that moment of feeling this
Profound love or wholeness, I realized that the only person I could change
Is myself. In that moment, my whole world changed. I left the woods with
Clarity that I never envisioned was possible. There was no turning back. The
Veil was lifted and my whole life began.
 
Regina
 
 
 
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From ae.dropper at juno.com  Sat Nov  4 22:53:36 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Mon Nov  6 00:05:48 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
Message-ID: <20061104.170201.1696.20.ae.dropper@juno.com>

don, you talked about the two levels from which one can look at something
the other day. This applies here. The "Passion" of being "passionately in
love" for instance is a movement whose source is not explicate but
implicate. Not ordinary. Not guided by thought but by something "non
rational" (or maybe I should say "Super" rational. None of these terms is
literal or perfectly applicable - you just might have to 'get a sense of
it').

It's kind of like working with the concepts of "core" and "periphery."
One is totally the other each time you try to pin it down in a lasting
way.

"Passion" is a wonderful example of a word seeming to have mirror image
meanings but considering the "two levels" from which to look at it makes
it easier.

Bohm's explicate and implicate are examples of "two levels."
Also "Relative & Absolute.

Words never "sit still." Certain words reveal the "lives" words can
"take on" at the different levels. And some words do this VERY
eloquently - like "passion."

What happens is the effects of the "relaxation" that is "passion" [that
is the source, the passion itself] are noted, and effects (the energetic
intensity) is taken as source - and the word in common usage takes on a
different and sometimes opposite meaning.

Was is peace.
Medicine is health.
Religion is morality.
Government keeps us safe.

pat





On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 21:08:51 +0000 Don Factor
<donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes:
I'm not sure that this does much for me either. Etymologically, action
means to act. And passion means to suffer. I am not sure that the
suffering is of the sort that means non-action but rather refers to
putting up with the pain. Compassion has to do with sharing the suffering
or 'sustained' pain. It has the same root as patience. But even here,
what do we mean by 'passionately in love"? for instance. Is this a state
of passivity? Not in my lexicon.


Damn it, I am trying to be patient here, but it just doesn't compute.
There is something there but I don't know what it is.
don


I don't know if this will help don (and I don't at all know what I am
about to say) but it was the talking about "passion" on this list 
(several years ago) that really got me understanding, what it was, that
was SO difficult and elusive for me. It really got me started focusing on
one simple thing which is to "stay with" what is happening rather than
"running away" in some way or another. We talked about how this "Passion"
was an extremely "high energy" state. Both in its initiation and in its
"energy building" capacity (if not in actuality - in its lack of energy
draining). 

That "Passion" was the opposite of "Action" (etymologically) really made
an impression on me. I could see how the "non action" of "Passion" was a
"non action" in terms of "running away" (in its various forms). And that
the "non action" of "Passion" was a relaxation into a new source of
"action."

This "non action" is considered to be the "suffering" of something. And
it may indeed seem so or be so. But this is mostly in the anticipation;
the fear. And in the "inventions" of retrospect. And that "Passion" is
also connected to "patience" gives further credentials and sense
development. But 'Patience" is a thing that only seems like "suffering"
in its anticipation or in seeing it from the outside. Actual patience is
utter ease and doesn't seem like typical ideas of "patience." (which are
more like "tolerance").

"Passion" is "relaxation" of that which would be in control or that which
would want the moment to "be different" than what it is. But "passion" is
simultaneously freedom of movement or activity, unencumbered now by
conflicting efforts.

pat



On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 18:36:58 +0000 Don Factor
<donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes:
William, you know I have read a lot of what you have to say about passion
and all of it, at some level. makes intriguing sense. It seems right and
importtant, but I still can't get my head around what it is you are
talking about.  At times you seem to talk about passion as a passive
state and at others as a more intense one. Maybe I am just used to the
intense aspec, like being passonate about someone or about chocolate. But
now you seem to equate passion with compassion. Well, etymologically they
have something to do with each other, but in experience I am not so sure.
Could you try once again to explain what you mean when you use the term.
Maybe an example, even fictional will do?


don


On 4 Nov 2006, at 18:10, william wrote:




From: Mr. Frantisek Plessl
>Passion is a gift and not a train skills acquired by
>pratice. We all have this capability for passion, and
>does comes to us uninvited in many different times.

Yes, i would say we have an inherent potential for passion, and it does
come through occasionally. 
Somebody recently wrote something about her experience with the
separation from her husband, which was very painful until something
happened that made the pain turn into compassion. I know of several
people where something similar happened. In all cases they went through a
rough time before it happened. The potential is there but somehow it
seems a rare thing. I tend to think that our culture doesn't do very much
to unfold this potential, in fact it seems to be doing everything to
suppress it. I was wondering if something can be done to make passion
part of our culture making it easier for the individual to actualize the
potential.

William





_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue


post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net


dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net


Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net


_______________________________________________







_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue


post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net


dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net


Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net


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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov  4 23:22:02 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Mon Nov  6 00:24:57 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suffering
In-Reply-To: <C172530E.7CAE%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
References: <C172530E.7CAE%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <D3EA59E3-5CA1-4E3A-9948-F56F2CE5A835@donfactor.demon.co.uk>


On 4 Nov 2006, at 20:24, Lynne Tolk wrote:

> I?ll have a go.  To me, passion is feeling, rather intense  
> feeling.  If I care about something, that?s a little lukewarm.  If  
> I?m passionate about it, I really care a lot!  It could be a  
> passion of suffering or it could be a passion of joy.  But it?s  
> very powerful.  The word compassion means passion or feeling WITH.   
> If I have compassion for others, I feel their passion as my own.   
> If I am feeling everyone?s passion of suffering and passion of joy,  
> then who I am is expanded into almost a new realm of being (anyway,  
> stage of consciousness).  This was my interpretation of William?s  
> reference to Regina?s extremely beautiful post.
>
> Lynne
>
I agree, that's the way I feel too. Its just that William (and Bohm)  
somewhere appears to be treating passion in a more general way, that  
includes ideas of passivity. To me neither passion or compassion are  
passive states. They are active, even if the urge to action is internal.

don
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