From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 5 00:57:12 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 5 01:00:35 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <99E637C0-ED19-4389-AE0C-DCF631A83C6D@dc.rr.com>
References: <973216.57152.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<003201c836bb$05e33620$b5c16018@DL01>
<99E637C0-ED19-4389-AE0C-DCF631A83C6D@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W50B30505D4D3EC869D8C9DC6D0@phx.gbl>
there is no tradition for this moment. no answer. no answer is an answer.
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on ImageDate: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:30:12 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgAre you raising the question of the possibility that a Bohm dialogue monoculture - that is, where all the participants in the group share a common content of consciousness - might be incoherent and therefore destructive from the point of view of the rest of the natural world?
don
On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Hi Al, Is this the sort of thing you reference?
http://www.alternativeradio.org/programs/SHIV007.shtml
Over centuries, communities all over the world have developed knowledge and skills to derive livelihoods from the bounties of nature's diversity. Today, traditional agriculture is being undermined by external inputs and new rules of international trade. Globalization advocates render local knowledge invisible by declaring it non-existent or illegitimate. Monocultures of the mind generate models of production which destroy diversity and legitimize that destruction as progress.
Do we suggest that everyone using and identifying as imagery could lead to extinction as happens with some crops? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to them. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. ALDon Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
I see this POV.
However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used, it does not point to the territory and it does not point to the "maker" of the map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize, a territory -- not the maker of the map.
What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the meaning that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower dimension) two products. ALDon Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that view does not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's remarks about the self and especially the identified personal self.
One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS language. For example, language can create or present a mental scenario in thought or in consciousness, and no "real place on Earth" can be found that the mental scenario actually points to.
Look for example at when people act and pretend being something they are not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it creates good FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can produce endorphins.
That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as something "made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely by thought and does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the mind that creates it.
Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. ALDon Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part of the meaning is that when using language to reference a self, then by definition of the way language functions, something like an image is used "in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the individual named.
Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical the image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language requires the use of the image as symbol.
Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act and pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced by the symbol?
Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a map without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are the actuality.
It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the symbolized.
And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory" point to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has inherited is based largely upon the notion of the separated observer and observed that the quantum discoveries have shown to be faulty?
Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all use language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and therefore without much meaning.
Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm", does reference not by whom, though. ALdonald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some of his questions.
But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile, he might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how Bohm fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question, AL. Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I too, consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance of this dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it probably tries to bring more territory than a lot of readers want to handle. It may also offer some insight into the sort of stuff that Eric has objected to.
don (donF)
On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an unfounded premise. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. ALDon Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
ALDon Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
_________________________________________________________________
Telly addicts unite!
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/tvtown.shtml
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071204/5f2b32c2/attachment.html
From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Wed Dec 5 01:01:36 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Wed Dec 5 01:05:00 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W50B30505D4D3EC869D8C9DC6D0@phx.gbl>
References: <973216.57152.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<003201c836bb$05e33620$b5c16018@DL01>
<99E637C0-ED19-4389-AE0C-DCF631A83C6D@dc.rr.com>
<BAY123-W50B30505D4D3EC869D8C9DC6D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E3080A71-A17D-4EF2-B03F-6FAE6AA59CC1@dc.rr.com>
Welcome back to the cave, We've been wondering what had
become of you.
don
On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:57 PM, rob mooney wrote:
> there is no tradition for this moment. no answer. no answer is an
> answer.
>
> From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:30:12 -0800
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>
> Are you raising the question of the possibility that a Bohm
> dialogue monoculture - that is, where all the participants in the
> group share a common content of consciousness - might be
> incoherent and therefore destructive from the point of view of the
> rest of the natural world?
>
> don
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Don Lay wrote:
>
> Hi Al, Is this the sort of thing you reference?
>
> http://www.alternativeradio.org/programs/SHIV007.shtml
> Over centuries, communities all over the world have developed
> knowledge and skills to derive livelihoods from the bounties of
> nature's diversity. Today, traditional agriculture is being
> undermined by external inputs and new rules of international trade.
> Globalization advocates render local knowledge invisible by
> declaring it non-existent or illegitimate. Monocultures of the mind
> generate models of production which destroy diversity and
> legitimize that destruction as progress.
> Do we suggest that everyone using and identifying as imagery could
> lead to extinction as happens with some crops? -- dl
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to
> them. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
>
> I see this POV.
>
> However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used,
> it does not point to the territory and it does not point to the
> "maker" of the map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize,
> a territory -- not the maker of the map.
>
> What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the
> meaning that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower
> dimension) two products. AL
>
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
> Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that
> view does not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's
> remarks about the self and especially the identified personal self.
>
> One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS
> language. For example, language can create or present a mental
> scenario in thought or in consciousness, and no "real place on
> Earth" can be found that the mental scenario actually points to.
>
> Look for example at when people act and pretend being something
> they are not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it
> creates good FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can
> produce endorphins.
>
> That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as
> something "made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely
> by thought and does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the
> mind that creates it.
>
> Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part
> of the meaning is that when using language to reference a self,
> then by definition of the way language functions, something like an
> image is used "in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the
> individual named.
>
> Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical
> the image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language
> requires the use of the image as symbol.
>
> Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act
> and pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced
> by the symbol?
>
> Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a
> map without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are
> the actuality.
>
> It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the
> quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the
> symbolized.
>
> And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory"
> point to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has
> inherited is based largely upon the notion of the separated
> observer and observed that the quantum discoveries have shown to be
> faulty?
>
> Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all
> use language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and
> therefore without much meaning.
>
> Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm", does reference
> not by whom, though. AL
>
> donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some
> of his questions.
> But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile,
> he might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how
> Bohm fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
>
> Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question,
> AL. Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is
> incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I
> too, consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance
> of this dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it
> probably tries to bring more territory than a lot of readers want
> to handle. It may also offer some insight into the sort of stuff
> that Eric has objected to.
>
> don (donF)
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
>
> Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As
> for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an
> unfounded premise. AL
>
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker
> re group dynamics?
>
> What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
>
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of
> re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does
> not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Hi Al. Welcome.
>
> Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-
> image derive from De Mare?
>
> Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited
> meaning.
>
> Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
>
> What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
>
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi fellow listserv-members -
> I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare
> brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of
> his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of
> contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the
> proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things
> off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this
> quest? Thank you.
> AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> What horseshit!
>
>
> From: william
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> >I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped
> the trap.
> >Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then
> what?
>
> Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then
> he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
>
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo
> Mobile. Try it now.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
> Try it now.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
> Try it now.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo
> Mobile. Try it now.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your
> homepage.
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071204/885eabf4/attachment.html
From donlay at knology.net Wed Dec 5 02:16:11 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Wed Dec 5 02:19:27 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <973216.57152.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><003201c836bb$05e33620$b5c16018@DL01>
<99E637C0-ED19-4389-AE0C-DCF631A83C6D@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c836dc$6c634810$b5c16018@DL01>
Not me. -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Are you raising the question of the possibility that a Bohm dialogue monoculture - that is, where all the participants in the group share a common content of consciousness - might be incoherent and therefore destructive from the point of view of the rest of the natural world?
don
On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Hi Al, Is this the sort of thing you reference?
http://www.alternativeradio.org/programs/SHIV007.shtml
Over centuries, communities all over the world have developed knowledge and skills to derive livelihoods from the bounties of nature's diversity. Today, traditional agriculture is being undermined by external inputs and new rules of international trade. Globalization advocates render local knowledge invisible by declaring it non-existent or illegitimate. Monocultures of the mind generate models of production which destroy diversity and legitimize that destruction as progress.
Do we suggest that everyone using and identifying as imagery could lead to extinction as happens with some crops? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to them. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
I see this POV.
However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used, it does not point to the territory and it does not point to the "maker" of the map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize, a territory -- not the maker of the map.
What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the meaning that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower dimension) two products. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that view does not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's remarks about the self and especially the identified personal self.
One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS language. For example, language can create or present a mental scenario in thought or in consciousness, and no "real place on Earth" can be found that the mental scenario actually points to.
Look for example at when people act and pretend being something they are not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it creates good FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can produce endorphins.
That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as something "made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely by thought and does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the mind that creates it.
Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part of the meaning is that when using language to reference a self, then by definition of the way language functions, something like an image is used "in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the individual named.
Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical the image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language requires the use of the image as symbol.
Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act and pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced by the symbol?
Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a map without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are the actuality.
It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the symbolized.
And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory" point to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has inherited is based largely upon the notion of the separated observer and observed that the quantum discoveries have shown to be faulty?
Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all use language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and therefore without much meaning.
Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm", does reference not by whom, though. AL
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some of his questions.
But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile, he might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how Bohm fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question, AL. Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I too, consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance of this dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it probably tries to bring more territory than a lot of readers want to handle. It may also offer some insight into the sort of stuff that Eric has objected to.
don (donF)
On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an unfounded premise. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--------------------------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
--------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
--------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071204/bcf09864/attachment.html
From donlay at knology.net Wed Dec 5 02:18:28 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Wed Dec 5 02:21:41 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <973216.57152.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><003201c836bb$05e33620$b5c16018@DL01><99E637C0-ED19-4389-AE0C-DCF631A83C6D@dc.rr.com><BAY123-W50B30505D4D3EC869D8C9DC6D0@phx.gbl>
<E3080A71-A17D-4EF2-B03F-6FAE6AA59CC1@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <006e01c836dc$be392420$b5c16018@DL01>
Yeah Rob Mooney, glad to hear from you. -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Welcome back to the cave, We've been wondering what had
become of you.
don
On Dec 4, 2007, at 3:57 PM, rob mooney wrote:
there is no tradition for this moment. no answer. no answer is an answer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:30:12 -0800
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Are you raising the question of the possibility that a Bohm dialogue monoculture - that is, where all the participants in the group share a common content of consciousness - might be incoherent and therefore destructive from the point of view of the rest of the natural world?
don
On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Hi Al, Is this the sort of thing you reference?
http://www.alternativeradio.org/programs/SHIV007.shtml
Over centuries, communities all over the world have developed knowledge and skills to derive livelihoods from the bounties of nature's diversity. Today, traditional agriculture is being undermined by external inputs and new rules of international trade. Globalization advocates render local knowledge invisible by declaring it non-existent or illegitimate. Monocultures of the mind generate models of production which destroy diversity and legitimize that destruction as progress.
Do we suggest that everyone using and identifying as imagery could lead to extinction as happens with some crops? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to them. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
I see this POV.
However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used, it does not point to the territory and it does not point to the "maker" of the map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize, a territory -- not the maker of the map.
What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the meaning that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower dimension) two products. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that view does not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's remarks about the self and especially the identified personal self.
One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS language. For example, language can create or present a mental scenario in thought or in consciousness, and no "real place on Earth" can be found that the mental scenario actually points to.
Look for example at when people act and pretend being something they are not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it creates good FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can produce endorphins.
That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as something "made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely by thought and does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the mind that creates it.
Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part of the meaning is that when using language to reference a self, then by definition of the way language functions, something like an image is used "in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the individual named.
Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical the image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language requires the use of the image as symbol.
Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act and pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced by the symbol?
Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a map without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are the actuality.
It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the symbolized.
And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory" point to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has inherited is based largely upon the notion of the separated observer and observed that the quantum discoveries have shown to be faulty?
Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all use language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and therefore without much meaning.
Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm", does reference not by whom, though. AL
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some of his questions.
But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile, he might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how Bohm fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question, AL. Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I too, consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance of this dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it probably tries to bring more territory than a lot of readers want to handle. It may also offer some insight into the sort of stuff that Eric has objected to.
don (donF)
On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an unfounded premise. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--------------------------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
--------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
----------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
--------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071204/8154edfc/attachment.html
From donlay at knology.net Wed Dec 5 03:01:02 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Wed Dec 5 03:04:16 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <973216.57152.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><003201c836bb$05e33620$b5c16018@DL01><99E637C0-ED19-4389-AE0C-DCF631A83C6D@dc.rr.com>
<005a01c836dc$6c634810$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <008801c836e2$b12d8b80$b5c16018@DL01>
I'm having a beer, doing this and watching Roy Orbison on Public TV, Black and White Night with k.d. lang singing backup and it almost brings tears to me eyes. That's a couple of very gifted people. -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Not me. -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Are you raising the question of the possibility that a Bohm dialogue monoculture - that is, where all the participants in the group share a common content of consciousness - might be incoherent and therefore destructive from the point of view of the rest of the natural world?
don
On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Hi Al, Is this the sort of thing you reference?
http://www.alternativeradio.org/programs/SHIV007.shtml
Over centuries, communities all over the world have developed knowledge and skills to derive livelihoods from the bounties of nature's diversity. Today, traditional agriculture is being undermined by external inputs and new rules of international trade. Globalization advocates render local knowledge invisible by declaring it non-existent or illegitimate. Monocultures of the mind generate models of production which destroy diversity and legitimize that destruction as progress.
Do we suggest that everyone using and identifying as imagery could lead to extinction as happens with some crops? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to them. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
I see this POV.
However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used, it does not point to the territory and it does not point to the "maker" of the map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize, a territory -- not the maker of the map.
What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the meaning that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower dimension) two products. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that view does not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's remarks about the self and especially the identified personal self.
One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS language. For example, language can create or present a mental scenario in thought or in consciousness, and no "real place on Earth" can be found that the mental scenario actually points to.
Look for example at when people act and pretend being something they are not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it creates good FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can produce endorphins.
That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as something "made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely by thought and does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the mind that creates it.
Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part of the meaning is that when using language to reference a self, then by definition of the way language functions, something like an image is used "in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the individual named.
Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical the image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language requires the use of the image as symbol.
Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act and pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced by the symbol?
Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a map without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are the actuality.
It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the symbolized.
And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory" point to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has inherited is based largely upon the notion of the separated observer and observed that the quantum discoveries have shown to be faulty?
Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all use language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and therefore without much meaning.
Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm", does reference not by whom, though. AL
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some of his questions.
But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile, he might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how Bohm fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question, AL. Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I too, consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance of this dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it probably tries to bring more territory than a lot of readers want to handle. It may also offer some insight into the sort of stuff that Eric has objected to.
don (donF)
On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an unfounded premise. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
----------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--------------------------------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
----------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071204/ac192ef4/attachment.html
From obsolete_idiom at hotmail.com Wed Dec 5 05:23:08 2007
From: obsolete_idiom at hotmail.com (eric scott nelson)
Date: Wed Dec 5 05:26:33 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <00ff01c835db$dde8a360$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <703462.40929.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><00e101c835d1$7d56d9e0$b5c16018@DL01>
<00f001c835da$b015f1f0$b5c16018@DL01>
<00ff01c835db$dde8a360$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <BLU108-W3554425928F15ADF03A470FF6E0@phx.gbl>
please check out my "word maps" at
http://www.ericscottnelson.com
the site is incomplete and lacks description.
words are symbols that are used to convey meanings so that we can communicate and understand each other.
i am spelling verbs in city blocks to explore language, people, and place.
feedback is more than welcome.
thanks,
esn
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:39:41 -0500
More on this theme:
Rajath and I talked briefly about Googling up some material, maybe from
Wikipedia, and then presenting it online as if we
(our identity) knew and had that
knowledge all along.
It can give a little pleasure "rush". I've done that and noticed the
rush, and evidently Rajath had also.
Are we the only ones or are we the only ones able to see that talking about
it is a use of db/thought presented in Though as a
System? I know, of course, that Pat knows because she has
talked about it and pointed it out on list.
Is not that another little example of a self without a
territory? And doesn't tas give us a way to talk about
that kind of situation without digging deeper the
false identity hole? -- dl
From:
Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:31
PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map,
and Email Identities
Language can create a mental scenario, something
like a map. In a way, that's what novelists
do.
The science fiction novelist may construct a language map which may only
stand for fantasy.
In the same way, scientists do that except the
scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent
"things" in space and time. Something like that. The
map or mental scenario created
by the fiction writer only has a make-believe
reality. The map is not intended to be used to explore
space-time.
I have read two or three little essays regarding how people can "get on
line" and create an identity, i.e., create
imagery for the imagination of
others -- and then become confused about that identity
as if it might actually be their identity, what they
actually are.
For example, someone could log onto a chat line
and create a completely false identity in someone's
mind.
In such a case, would it not be adequate to say that was
a self identity without a territory
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
_________________________________________________________________
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/cd5cc990/attachment.html
From ae.dropper at juno.com Wed Dec 5 05:33:14 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Wed Dec 5 05:34:00 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Message-ID: <20071204.233326.2428.130.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Savin nickels savin dimes
Working till the sun don't shine
Lookin forward to happier times
On Blue Bayou
I'm goin back one day
Come what may
To Blue Bayou
Where you sleep all day
And the Catfish play
On Blue Bayou
Oh those fishing boats
With their sails afloat
If I could only see
That familiar sunrise
Through sleepy eyes
How happy I'd be
-- funny
On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:01:02 -0500 "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> writes:
I'm having a beer, doing this and watching Roy Orbison on Public TV,
Black and White Night with k.d. lang singing backup and it almost brings
tears to me eyes. That's a couple of very gifted people. -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Not me. -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Are you raising the question of the possibility that a Bohm dialogue
monoculture - that is, where all the participants in the group share a
common content of consciousness - might be incoherent and therefore
destructive from the point of view of the rest of the natural world?
don
On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:17 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Hi Al, Is this the sort of thing you reference?
http://www.alternativeradio.org/programs/SHIV007.shtml
Over centuries, communities all over the world have developed knowledge
and skills to derive livelihoods from the bounties of nature's diversity.
Today, traditional agriculture is being undermined by external inputs and
new rules of international trade. Globalization advocates render local
knowledge invisible by declaring it non-existent or illegitimate.
Monocultures of the mind generate models of production which destroy
diversity and legitimize that destruction as progress.
Do we suggest that everyone using and identifying as imagery could lead
to extinction as happens with some crops? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to them.
You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
I see this POV.
However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used, it does
not point to the territory and it does not point to the "maker" of the
map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize, a territory -- not
the maker of the map.
What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the meaning
that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower
dimension) two products. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that view does
not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's remarks about the
self and especially the identified personal self.
One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS language. For
example, language can create or present a mental scenario in thought or
in consciousness, and no "real place on Earth" can be found that the
mental scenario actually points to.
Look for example at when people act and pretend being something they are
not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it creates good
FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can produce endorphins.
That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as something
"made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely by thought and
does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the mind that creates it.
Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part of
the meaning is that when using language to reference a self, then by
definition of the way language functions, something like an image is used
"in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the individual named.
Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical the
image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language requires the
use of the image as symbol.
Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act and
pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced by the
symbol?
Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a map
without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are the
actuality.
It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the
quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the
symbolized.
And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory" point
to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has inherited is based
largely upon the notion of the separated observer and observed that the
quantum discoveries have shown to be faulty?
Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all use
language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and therefore
without much meaning.
Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm", does reference not by
whom, though. AL
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some of his
questions.
But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile, he
might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how Bohm fits
in. to what Diversity is up to.
Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question, AL. Is
it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is incomplete,
and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I too, consider
DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance of this dialogue
project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it probably tries to bring more
territory than a lot of readers want to handle. It may also offer some
insight into the sort of stuff that Eric has objected to.
don (donF)
On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As for your
other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an unfounded
premise. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re
group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of
re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not
surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image
derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited
meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare
brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his
books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of
this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to
another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other
readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the
trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will
face the confrontation. Wait and see...
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try
it now.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
now.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
now.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try
it now.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071204/dcb60a1d/attachment.html
From obsolete_idiom at hotmail.com Wed Dec 5 05:33:26 2007
From: obsolete_idiom at hotmail.com (eric scott nelson)
Date: Wed Dec 5 05:36:49 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <00ff01c835db$dde8a360$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <703462.40929.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><00e101c835d1$7d56d9e0$b5c16018@DL01>
<00f001c835da$b015f1f0$b5c16018@DL01>
<00ff01c835db$dde8a360$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <BLU108-W4FA7123AA1099A7E314C6FF6E0@phx.gbl>
where can i find "In the same way, scientists do that except the
scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent
"things" in space and time."? is that from "On Dialogue"? what page(s)?
-esn
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:39:41 -0500
More on this theme:
Rajath and I talked briefly about Googling up some material, maybe from
Wikipedia, and then presenting it online as if we
(our identity) knew and had that
knowledge all along.
It can give a little pleasure "rush". I've done that and noticed the
rush, and evidently Rajath had also.
Are we the only ones or are we the only ones able to see that talking about
it is a use of db/thought presented in Though as a
System? I know, of course, that Pat knows because she has
talked about it and pointed it out on list.
Is not that another little example of a self without a
territory? And doesn't tas give us a way to talk about
that kind of situation without digging deeper the
false identity hole? -- dl
From:
Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:31
PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map,
and Email Identities
Language can create a mental scenario, something
like a map. In a way, that's what novelists
do.
The science fiction novelist may construct a language map which may only
stand for fantasy.
In the same way, scientists do that except the
scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent
"things" in space and time. Something like that. The
map or mental scenario created
by the fiction writer only has a make-believe
reality. The map is not intended to be used to explore
space-time.
I have read two or three little essays regarding how people can "get on
line" and create an identity, i.e., create
imagery for the imagination of
others -- and then become confused about that identity
as if it might actually be their identity, what they
actually are.
For example, someone could log onto a chat line
and create a completely false identity in someone's
mind.
In such a case, would it not be adequate to say that was
a self identity without a territory
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
_________________________________________________________________
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy!
http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/13bb64a8/attachment.html
From landmana at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 12:12:44 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Wed Dec 5 12:16:12 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <008b01c836af$1bfe0c70$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <793604.76924.qm@web57402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi dl. You could ask and examine, side by side, Thought-as-a-System and Over-Population-Dynamics. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: Maybe, but why? -- dl
http:From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to them. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
I see this POV.
However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used, it does not point to the territory and it does not point to the "maker" of the map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize, a territory -- not the maker of the map.
What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the meaning that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower dimension) two products. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that view does not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's remarks about the self and especially the identified personal self.
One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS language. For example, language can create or present a mental scenario in thought or in consciousness, and no "real place on Earth" can be found that the mental scenario actually points to.
Look for example at when people act and pretend being something they are not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it creates good FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can produce endorphins.
That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as something "made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely by thought and does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the mind that creates it.
Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part of the meaning is that when using language to reference a self, then by definition of the way language functions, something like an image is used "in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the individual named.
Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical the image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language requires the use of the image as symbol.
Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act and pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced by the symbol?
Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a map without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are the actuality.
It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the symbolized.
And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory" point to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has inherited is based largely upon the notion of the separated observer and observed that the quantum discoveries have shown to be faulty?
Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all use language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and therefore without much meaning.
Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm", does reference not by whom, though. AL
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some of his questions. But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile, he might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how Bohm fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question, AL. Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I too, consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance of this dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it probably tries to bring more territory than a lot of readers want to handle. It may also offer some insight into the sort of stuff that Eric has objected to.
don (donF)
On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an unfounded premise. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/8cce52b5/attachment.html
From landmana at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 12:06:14 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Wed Dec 5 12:16:24 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <BLU108-W3554425928F15ADF03A470FF6E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <996116.87057.qm@web57415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi Eric Scott Nelson. Your art is therapy. Art is therapy. AL
eric scott nelson <obsolete_idiom@hotmail.com> wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } please check out my "word maps" at
http://www.ericscottnelson.com
the site is incomplete and lacks description.
words are symbols that are used to convey meanings so that we can communicate and understand each other.
i am spelling verbs in city blocks to explore language, people, and place.
feedback is more than welcome.
thanks,
esn
---------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:39:41 -0500
More on this theme:
Rajath and I talked briefly about Googling up some material, maybe from Wikipedia, and then presenting it online as if we (our identity) knew and had that knowledge all along.
It can give a little pleasure "rush". I've done that and noticed the rush, and evidently Rajath had also.
Are we the only ones or are we the only ones able to see that talking about it is a use of db/thought presented in Though as a System? I know, of course, that Pat knows because she has talked about it and pointed it out on list.
Is not that another little example of a self without a territory? And doesn't tas give us a way to talk about that kind of situation without digging deeper the false identity hole? -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:31 PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Language can create a mental scenario, something like a map. In a way, that's what novelists do. The science fiction novelist may construct a language map which may only stand for fantasy.
In the same way, scientists do that except the scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent "things" in space and time. Something like that. The map or mental scenario created by the fiction writer only has a make-believe reality. The map is not intended to be used to explore space-time.
I have read two or three little essays regarding how people can "get on line" and create an identity, i.e., create imagery for the imagination of others -- and then become confused about that identity as if it might actually be their identity, what they actually are.
For example, someone could log onto a chat line and create a completely false identity in someone's mind.
In such a case, would it not be adequate to say that was a self identity without a territory
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! Try it!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/1c2a5a9b/attachment.html
From donlay at knology.net Wed Dec 5 14:48:29 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Wed Dec 5 14:52:05 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
References: <703462.40929.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><00e101c835d1$7d56d9e0$b5c16018@DL01><00f001c835da$b015f1f0$b5c16018@DL01><00ff01c835db$dde8a360$b5c16018@DL01>
<BLU108-W4FA7123AA1099A7E314C6FF6E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <004701c83745$85050930$b5c16018@DL01>
Eric, that appears to be a paraphrase of material in On Creativity where Bohm addresses how Scientists and Artists have similar goals, etc. It should not have been in quotation marks. My apology. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: eric scott nelson
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
where can i find "In the same way, scientists do that except the scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent "things" in space and time."? is that from "On Dialogue"? what page(s)?
-esn
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:39:41 -0500
More on this theme:
Rajath and I talked briefly about Googling up some material, maybe from Wikipedia, and then presenting it online as if we (our identity) knew and had that knowledge all along.
It can give a little pleasure "rush". I've done that and noticed the rush, and evidently Rajath had also.
Are we the only ones or are we the only ones able to see that talking about it is a use of db/thought presented in Though as a System? I know, of course, that Pat knows because she has talked about it and pointed it out on list.
Is not that another little example of a self without a territory? And doesn't tas give us a way to talk about that kind of situation without digging deeper the false identity hole? -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:31 PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Language can create a mental scenario, something like a map. In a way, that's what novelists do.
The science fiction novelist may construct a language map which may only stand for fantasy.
In the same way, scientists do that except the scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent "things" in space and time. Something like that. The map or mental scenario created by the fiction writer only has a make-believe reality. The map is not intended to be used to explore space-time.
I have read two or three little essays regarding how people can "get on line" and create an identity, i.e., create imagery for the imagination of others -- and then become confused about that identity as if it might actually be their identity, what they actually are.
For example, someone could log onto a chat line and create a completely false identity in someone's mind.
In such a case, would it not be adequate to say that was a self identity without a territory
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! Try it!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/42f28a6f/attachment.html
From w at david-bohm.net Wed Dec 5 15:42:04 2007
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Wed Dec 5 15:45:44 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
References: <99E637C0-ED19-4389-AE0C-DCF631A83C6D@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4756B8BB.000001.04796@VAIO-584793128F>
>Are you raising the question of the possibility that a Bohm dialogue
monoculture -
>that is, where all the participants in the group share a common content of
>consciousness - might be incoherent and therefore destructive from the
point
>of view of the rest of the natural world?
>
>don
It struck me that the notion of sharing a common content of consciousness
sounds incompatible with the idea that Bohmian dialogue is ideally supposed
to be a micro-cosmos of the world. Also, i am not totally convinced that
incoherence is necessarily destructive. There are many religious and other
social systems that are incoherent but harmless (although some are
destructive).
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/cd56532a/attachment.html
From donlay at knology.net Wed Dec 5 16:11:48 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Wed Dec 5 16:15:26 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
References: <703462.40929.qm@web57414.mail.re1.yahoo.com><00e101c835d1$7d56d9e0$b5c16018@DL01><00f001c835da$b015f1f0$b5c16018@DL01><00ff01c835db$dde8a360$b5c16018@DL01><BLU108-W4FA7123AA1099A7E314C6FF6E0@phx.gbl>
<004701c83745$85050930$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <005b01c83751$291f1280$b5c16018@DL01>
Apology retracted because I did not put my paraphrase in quotes.
Eric, you might be very interested in Bohm's remarks regarding the esthetics of science and art in his essay, On the Relationships of Science and Art in On Creativity. I like very much Lee Nichol's thoughts in the Foreword regarding Bohm's ideas of the similarity of perception processes and the processes of abstraction use by both artist and scientist.
They shed light on the processes of suspension that may be practiced in Dialogue. As the artist must suspend the reflex to make a painting in the same old way in order that creative processes may present new formulations, in dialogue we may suspend the usual understanding of dialogue (per Bohm) so that creative processes may present new formulations.
Obviously the "usual understanding of dialogue" is that it is just reflexive, mechanical talk. Bohm says he gives it different meaning which seems to mean that he goes to the origin of the idea of dialogue in the Greek which has something to do with the structure of the universe as Reason and Meaning.
Part of the problems of modern civilization is that both artists and scientists must formulate their discoveries using language that fits the paradigm of physical evolution -- that is we must use the language that has evolved. Even to talk about the inadequacy of language, we must use the inadequate language. Is it possible to see similarity here of using the electron microscope to measure an electron?
My view as artist is that just as science discovered that measuring an electron with an electron measuring device is inadequate because the electron that measures is indivisible from the electron that is measured -- similarly the word that may be used to measure and describe experience is itself a measure of experience.
Pat (of anyone), if you're reading this, I'd appreciate your thoughts on the above notions re measuring and describing experience with words that are measures and descriptions of experience. -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Eric, that appears to be a paraphrase of material in On Creativity where Bohm addresses how Scientists and Artists have similar goals, etc. It should not have been in quotation marks. My apology. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: eric scott nelson
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
where can i find "In the same way, scientists do that except the scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent "things" in space and time."? is that from "On Dialogue"? what page(s)?
-esn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:39:41 -0500
More on this theme:
Rajath and I talked briefly about Googling up some material, maybe from Wikipedia, and then presenting it online as if we (our identity) knew and had that knowledge all along.
It can give a little pleasure "rush". I've done that and noticed the rush, and evidently Rajath had also.
Are we the only ones or are we the only ones able to see that talking about it is a use of db/thought presented in Though as a System? I know, of course, that Pat knows because she has talked about it and pointed it out on list.
Is not that another little example of a self without a territory? And doesn't tas give us a way to talk about that kind of situation without digging deeper the false identity hole? -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:31 PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Language can create a mental scenario, something like a map. In a way, that's what novelists do.
The science fiction novelist may construct a language map which may only stand for fantasy.
In the same way, scientists do that except the scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent "things" in space and time. Something like that. The map or mental scenario created by the fiction writer only has a make-believe reality. The map is not intended to be used to explore space-time.
I have read two or three little essays regarding how people can "get on line" and create an identity, i.e., create imagery for the imagination of others -- and then become confused about that identity as if it might actually be their identity, what they actually are.
For example, someone could log onto a chat line and create a completely false identity in someone's mind.
In such a case, would it not be adequate to say that was a self identity without a territory
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! Try it!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/c343dc20/attachment.html
From ae.dropper at juno.com Wed Dec 5 17:31:00 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Wed Dec 5 17:30:42 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Message-ID: <20071205.113101.2428.132.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Pat (of anyone), if you're reading this, I'd appreciate your thoughts on
the above notions re measuring and describing experience with words that
are measures and descriptions of experience. -- dl
It's in the hopper.
[Looked up "hopper." Interesting.
"A tank holding a liquid and having a device for releasing its contents
through a pipe."
"A box into which a bill to be considered by a legislative body, is
dropped."
"A freight car with hinged doors in a sloping bottom."
"A usually funnel-shaped container for delivering material (as grain)."]
-- funny
On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:11:48 -0500 "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> writes:
Apology retracted because I did not put my paraphrase in quotes.
Eric, you might be very interested in Bohm's remarks regarding the
esthetics of science and art in his essay, On the Relationships of
Science and Art in On Creativity. I like very much Lee Nichol's
thoughts in the Foreword regarding Bohm's ideas of the similarity of
perception processes and the processes of abstraction use by both artist
and scientist.
They shed light on the processes of suspension that may be practiced in
Dialogue. As the artist must suspend the reflex to make a painting in
the same old way in order that creative processes may present new
formulations, in dialogue we may suspend the usual understanding of
dialogue (per Bohm) so that creative processes may present new
formulations.
Obviously the "usual understanding of dialogue" is that it is just
reflexive, mechanical talk. Bohm says he gives it different meaning
which seems to mean that he goes to the origin of the idea of dialogue in
the Greek which has something to do with the structure of the universe as
Reason and Meaning.
Part of the problems of modern civilization is that both artists and
scientists must formulate their discoveries using language that fits the
paradigm of physical evolution -- that is we must use the language that
has evolved. Even to talk about the inadequacy of language, we must use
the inadequate language. Is it possible to see similarity here of using
the electron microscope to measure an electron?
My view as artist is that just as science discovered that measuring an
electron with an electron measuring device is inadequate because the
electron that measures is indivisible from the electron that is measured
-- similarly the word that may be used to measure and describe experience
is itself a measure of experience.
Pat (of anyone), if you're reading this, I'd appreciate your thoughts on
the above notions re measuring and describing experience with words that
are measures and descriptions of experience. -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Eric, that appears to be a paraphrase of material in On Creativity where
Bohm addresses how Scientists and Artists have similar goals, etc. It
should not have been in quotation marks. My apology. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: eric scott nelson
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
where can i find "In the same way, scientists do that except the
scientists (and the artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to
represent "things" in space and time."? is that from "On Dialogue"?
what page(s)?
-esn
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:39:41 -0500
More on this theme:
Rajath and I talked briefly about Googling up some material, maybe from
Wikipedia, and then presenting it online as if we (our identity) knew and
had that knowledge all along.
It can give a little pleasure "rush". I've done that and noticed the
rush, and evidently Rajath had also.
Are we the only ones or are we the only ones able to see that talking
about it is a use of db/thought presented in Though as a System? I know,
of course, that Pat knows because she has talked about it and pointed it
out on list.
Is not that another little example of a self without a territory? And
doesn't tas give us a way to talk about that kind of situation without
digging deeper the false identity hole? -- dl
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:31 PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Language can create a mental scenario, something like a map. In a way,
that's what novelists do.
The science fiction novelist may construct a language map which may only
stand for fantasy.
In the same way, scientists do that except the scientists (and the
artist says Bohm) intend their language maps to represent "things" in
space and time. Something like that. The map or mental scenario created
by the fiction writer only has a make-believe reality. The map is not
intended to be used to explore space-time.
I have read two or three little essays regarding how people can "get on
line" and create an identity, i.e., create imagery for the imagination of
others -- and then become confused about that identity as if it might
actually be their identity, what they actually are.
For example, someone could log onto a chat line and create a completely
false identity in someone's mind.
In such a case, would it not be adequate to say that was a self identity
without a territory
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live
Spaces. It's easy! Try it!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/9e69b5ca/attachment.html
From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Wed Dec 5 18:44:05 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Wed Dec 5 18:47:39 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <20071205.113101.2428.132.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20071205.113101.2428.132.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <15D6B45C-9FFE-46D0-8271-E39101517E00@dc.rr.com>
Also, the name of an old friend of mine who is an actor, but more
recently turns out to be a very talented artist.
don
On Dec 5, 2007, at 8:31 AM, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
>
> It's in the hopper.
>
> [Looked up "hopper." Interesting.
>
> "A tank holding a liquid and having a device for releasing its
> contents through a pipe."
> "A box into which a bill to be considered by a legislative body, is
> dropped."
> "A freight car with hinged doors in a sloping bottom."
> "A usually funnel-shaped container for delivering material (as
> grain)."]
>
> -- funny
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/c00a5245/attachment.html
From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Dec 5 18:57:53 2007
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Wed Dec 5 19:01:26 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
References: <ecdf86757f624a869337fffcb46d79be@johnconyers.com>
Message-ID: <E80921FE-3C95-44AD-993D-91D219545BEE@dc.rr.com>
As a point of interest, please scroll down to the highlighted lines
of this letter. It deals, amongst more urgent topics. with dl's ideas
about "person-persona".
don
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Congressman John Conyers " <info@johnconyers.com>
> Date: December 5, 2007 6:01:52 AM PST
> To: dfactor@dc.rr.com
> Subject: Setting the Record Straight on FISA
> Reply-To: info@johnconyers.com
>
>
>
> Setting the Record Straight on FISA
>
>
>
>
> Dear Donald,
>
> In recent weeks, there has been lot of conflicting information
> floating around about efforts by House Democrats to protect the
> country by adopting rules for intelligence gathering that are both
> flexible and constitutional. This week, President Bush suggested
> that my legislative alternative to this summer's hastily-enacted
> Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) reform, the "Protect
> America Act," would take away important tools from our intelligence
> community. He characterized as "obstruction" the skepticism that
> many of us have about granting amnesty to telecommunications
> carriers who may have cooperated in warrantless surveillance. I
> was disappointed that the President did not propose any concrete
> steps to improve our capabilities or protect our freedoms -- he
> just repeated his demand for immunity.
>
> This comes close on the heels of a recent controversy concerning
> the House Democrats' FISA legislation stemming from Joe Klein's
> column in Time Magazine on November 21st, in which his Republican
> sources seem to have spun a tale that led Mr. Klein to characterize
> our efforts as "more than stupid."
>
> I believe that it is time for a comprehensive and detailed response
> to the President's accusations of obstruction, the misinformation
> in the Time Magazine column, and the debate over warrantless
> surveillance. Below is that response. Please let me know what you
> think, and feel free to pass along to your friends and colleagues.
>
> Joe Klein's recent column deriding the House-passed FISA
> legislation, along with his subsequent stumbling efforts to clarify
> its intent, and Time Magazine's failure to publish the protests my
> Democratic colleagues and I had regarding its many inaccuracies are
> only the most recent manifestation of disinformation put forth
> concerning the Bush Administration's warrantless surveillance
> program and legislative efforts to modify the law. As the lead
> author, along with Silvestre Reyes, of the RESTORE Act, allow me to
> set the record straight once and for all.
>
> First, contrary to GOP and media spin, the RESTORE Act does not
> grant "terrorists the same rights as Americans." Section 105A of
> the RESTORE Act explicitly provides that foreign-to-foreign
> communications are totally exempt from FISA ? clearly, this
> exception for foreigners such as members of Al Qaeda does not apply
> to Americans. In cases involving foreign agents where
> communications with Americans could be picked up, Section 105B of
> the legislation provides for liberalized "basket warrant"
> procedures by which entire terrorist organizations can be
> surveilled without the need to obtain individual warrants from the
> FISA court. Again, this new authority is aimed at foreign
> terrorists, not Americans.
>
> Mr. Klein appears to base much of his criticism of our bill on our
> use of the term "person" to describe who may be surveilled, based
> on the suggestion of a Republican "source" that this risks an
> interpretation that terrorist groups would not be covered. The
> truth is that under FISA the term person has been clearly defined
> for almost thirty years to include "any group, entity, association,
> corporation, or foreign power." It is also notable that both the
> RESTORE Act, and the Administration's bill passed this summer,
> contain the exact same language that Mr. Klein questions, yet we've
> never heard an objection to the Administration's bill on this score.
>
> Second, I must strongly disagree with Mr. Klein's assertion that
> the Speaker "quashed ... a bipartisan [compromise] effort." As the
> Chairman of the Committee with principal jurisdiction over FISA,
> the House Judiciary Committee, I am aware of no effort to prevent
> bipartisan compromise on this issue. As a matter of fact, last
> summer, beginning in July, Democrats tirelessly negotiated with
> Director of National Intelligence (DNI), Mike McConnell, to develop
> consensus legislation to address the Administration's stated
> concerns about our intelligence capability.
>
> We addressed every one of the concerns Mr. McConnell raised. He
> said he needed to clarify that a court order was not required for
> foreign-to-foreign communications -- our bill did just that.
> McConnell said he needed an assurance that telecommunications
> companies would be compelled to assist in gathering of national
> security information ? our bill did that. The DNI said he needed
> provisions to extend FISA to foreign intelligence in addition to
> terrorism ? the bill did that. He asked us to eliminate the
> requirement that the FISA Court adjudicate how recurring
> communications to the United States from foreign targets would be
> handled ? the bill did that. McConnell insisted that basket
> warrants be structured to allow additional targets to be added
> after the warrant was initially approved ? again, the bill did
> that. When this legislation was described to DNI McConnell, he
> acknowledged that "it significantly enhances America's security.''
>
> Yet, suddenly, on the eve of the vote, Director McConnell withdrew
> his support after consultation with the White House. If the media
> wanted to identify over-the-top partisanship, they could begin by
> citing the declaration of David Addington, Vice President Cheney's
> Chief of Staff, that "We're one bomb away from getting rid of that
> obnoxious FISA Court," and DNI McConnell's assertion that by merely
> having an open debate on surveillance, "some Americans are going to
> die."
>
> Third, the RESTORE Act legislation is badly needed to provide
> accountability to the Bush Administration's unilateral approach to
> surveillance. The warrantless surveillance program has been
> riddled with deceptions that only began to come to light when The
> New York Times first disclosed the existence of the program in
> 2005. The program itself appears to directly violate FISA and the
> Fourth Amendment, as a federal court, the non-partisan
> Congressional Research Service, numerous Republican legislators,
> and independent legal scholars have found.
>
> The Administration has also mischaracterized the existence, degree,
> extent and nature of the program itself as well as how much
> information it has shared with Congress. For instance, compare the
> President's speech in 2004 with his admission that there was indeed
> a program of warrantless surveillance. When high-ranking DOJ
> officials found the program lacking, the White House went to
> absurd, if not comical lengths, to convince a dangerously ill and
> hospitalized Attorney General Ashcroft to overrule them. Even
> today, the Administration continues to obscure its own past
> misconduct with extravagant claims that the "state secrets"
> doctrine bars any legal challenges whatsoever - a position that has
> been rejected by the Court of Appeals.
>
> The Administration's hastily enacted legislation, signed this
> summer, is little better. Instead of being limited to the stated
> problem of foreign-to-foreign electronic surveillance, it could
> apply to domestic business records, library files, personal mail,
> and even searches of our homes.
>
> Against that backdrop, it is clear we need a new law with the
> critical oversight provisions included in the RESTORE Act, such as
> requiring the Administration to turn over relevant documents to
> Congress, mandating periodic Inspector General reports, and
> acknowledging that the Administration is indeed bound by FISA.
>
> Finally, the Administration has yet to explain why offering
> retroactive immunity to telephone giants who may have participated
> in an unlawful program is vital to our national security. Under
> current law, the phone companies can easily avoid liability if they
> can establish they received either an appropriate court order or
> legal certification from the Attorney General. Asking Congress to
> grant legal immunity at a time when the Administration has refused
> to provide the House of Representatives with relevant legal
> documents for more than eleven months is not only unreasonable, it
> is irresponsible.
>
> Civil liberties and national security need not be contradictory
> policies, rather they are inexorably linked. Perhaps nowhere is
> this interrelationship more true than in intelligence gathering,
> where information must be reliable and untainted by abuse to be
> useful. So when we discuss FISA, the first thing we need to do is
> drop the partisan rhetoric, and stick to the actual record. Under
> the RESTORE Act, the intelligence community has the flexibility to
> intercept communications by foreign terrorists without obtaining
> individual warrants, and the Court and Congress are given the
> authority to perform their constitutional oversight roles. The
> only parties who lose in this process are the terrorists, and those
> who want the executive branch to have absolute and unreviewable power.
>
> Rather than being, in Mr. Klein's words, "well beyond stupid," the
> RESTORE Act offers a smart and well balanced approach to updating
> FISA and reining in the excesses of an unchecked executive branch.
>
> Your Friend,
>
> John Conyers, Jr.
>
>
>
>
> johnconyers.com
>
>
> Paid for by the Conyers, John
>
>
> Conyers for Congress
> 1831 Bay Street, SE
> Washington, DC 20003
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, click here
> Powered by NGP Software, Inc.
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20071205/b0f1fd96/attachment.html
From ae.dropper at juno.com Wed Dec 5 19:19:24 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Wed Dec 5 19:19:45 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
Message-ID: <20071205.131933.2428.137.ae.dropper@juno.com>
They shed light on the processes of suspension that may be practiced in
Dialogue. (dl)
"Suspension" just grows and grows. Where the surface fruits of
"suspension" are appreciated, suspension through the strata begins to
show its appeal. The fruits of suspension [of action, which includes
speech, in relation to what is read or heard] are
that something unknown surfaces as a possible response. Very satisfying
to respond with these. But these too, can be suspended. It may take
awhile to be able to do this because the little bi