From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Thu Dec 6 00:00:31 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Dec 6 00:04:13 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <001c01c83785$0ec13420$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <793604.76924.qm@web57402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<001c01c83785$0ec13420$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <673BBE23-A85F-45EB-BD51-853A76A7F493@dc.rr.com>
Maybe because some of us are here in order to gain a greater
understanding of the "whole thing" rather than to behave as academics
who devote their lives to simply studying just one fragment of it.
don
On Dec 5, 2007, at 1:23 PM, Don Lay wrote:
> Maybe, but why, for what reason?
>
> That is, seeing that the English word reason derives from the Greek
> word logos, and that we are subscribed to this that known ad Bohm
> Dialogue on line, dialogue deriving from the Greek reason -- what
> reason is involved with Thought as a System and over-population
> dynamics? -- dl
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi dl. You could ask and examine, side by side, Thought-as-a-System
> and Over-Population-Dynamics. AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Maybe, but why? -- dl
>
>
> http:From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to
> them. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
>
> I see this POV.
>
> However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used,
> it does not point to the territory and it does not point to the
> "maker" of the map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize,
> a territory -- not the maker of the map.
>
> What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the
> meaning that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower
> dimension) two products. AL
>
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
> Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that
> view does not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's
> remarks about the self and especially the identified personal self.
>
> One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS
> language. For example, language can create or present a
> mental scenario in thought or in consciousness, and no
> "real place on Earth" can be found that the mental scenario
> actually points to.
>
> Look for example at when people act and pretend being something
> they are not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it
> creates good FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can
> produce endorphins.
>
> That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as
> something "made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely
> by thought and does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the
> mind that creates it.
>
> Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. AL
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part
> of the meaning is that when using language to reference a self,
> then by definition of the way language functions, something like an
> image is used "in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the
> individual named.
>
> Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical
> the image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language
> requires the use of the image as symbol.
>
> Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act
> and pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced
> by the symbol?
>
> Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a
> map without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are
> the actuality.
>
> It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the
> quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the
> symbolized.
>
> And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory"
> point to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has
> inherited is based largely upon the notion of the separated
> observer and observed that the quantum discoveries have shown to be
> faulty?
>
> Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all
> use language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and
> therefore without much meaning.
>
> Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
>
>
> From: Alfred Landman
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>
> Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm",
> does reference not by whom, though. AL
>
> donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some
> of his questions.
> But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile,
> he might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how
> Bohm fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
>
> Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question,
> AL. Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is
> incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I
> too, consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance
> of this dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it
> probably tries to bring more territory than a lot of readers want
> to handle. It may also offer some insight into the sort of stuff
> that Eric has objected to.
>
> don (donF)
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
>
>> Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As
>> for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on
>> an unfounded premise. AL
>>
>>
>> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
>> Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/
>> thinker re group dynamics?
>>
>> What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Alfred Landman
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>>
>> Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work
>> of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking
>> does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
>>
>> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
>> Hi Al. Welcome.
>>
>> Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-
>> image derive from De Mare?
>>
>> Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited
>> meaning.
>>
>> Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
>>
>> What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Alfred Landman
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>>
>> Hi fellow listserv-members -
>> I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare
>> brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of
>> his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of
>> contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the
>> proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things
>> off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this
>> quest? Thank you.
>> AL
>>
>> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
>> What horseshit!
>>
>>
>> From: william
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes
>> on Image
>>
>> >I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you
>> escaped the trap.
>> >Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then
>> what?
>>
>> Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then
>> he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo
>> Mobile. Try it now.
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>
>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
> Try it now.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
> Try it now.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo
> Mobile. Try it now.
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your
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> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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>
>
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> Try it now.
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>
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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Thu Dec 6 00:17:01 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Dec 6 00:20:37 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
In-Reply-To: <004e01c8378b$1bdc3fa0$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <ecdf86757f624a869337fffcb46d79be@johnconyers.com>
<E80921FE-3C95-44AD-993D-91D219545BEE@dc.rr.com>
<004e01c8378b$1bdc3fa0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <3724CEDB-ED7B-4967-BF67-DACFD399CCA4@dc.rr.com>
I have no idea who your Eugene Weber is, but there was never a Roman
god called Christus who defeated death and rose on the third day.
There were some gods previous to Jesus who died and were resurrected
but none, so far as I know, by that name. If I am wrong please
enlighten me.
don
On Dec 5, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Don Lay wrote:
> Two millennia ago, people under Roman occupation could become a
> Roman citizen and therefore have personal rights by professing
> loyalty oath to Rome and maybe to a Roman god. It is greatly
> ironical a Jew who it is said professed an interest in truth became
> identified with the Roman God Christus who it was said, died and
> went to the grave, fought and there defeated death and rose on the
> third day (as per UCLA Historian Eugene Weber).
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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Thu Dec 6 00:18:16 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Dec 6 00:21:51 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
In-Reply-To: <47572553.000003.05940@VAIO-584793128F>
References: <004e01c8378b$1bdc3fa0$b5c16018@DL01>
<47572553.000003.05940@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <0E8A95D2-54B0-42ED-99F0-0A9C82E62CD6@dc.rr.com>
On Dec 5, 2007, at 2:25 PM, william wrote:
> Donald Bush
???
don
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From donlay at knology.net Thu Dec 6 03:44:15 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Thu Dec 6 03:48:07 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
References: <004e01c8378b$1bdc3fa0$b5c16018@DL01>
<47572553.000003.05940@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <009f01c837b1$e44efce0$b5c16018@DL01>
Of course, personal identity is man-made. -- w
Such a statement seems to suggest that people are somehow unreal, that people act and pretend they actually are their personal identity and, in that sense, are actors and pretenders as suggested by the idea of the mask of persona. What might be the meaning of this. -- dl
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
>Very interesting df. It seems most people are unable to look at and even less able
>to accept that the personal identity is something synthetic, man-made ...
What do you mean "unable to accept that personal identity is something man-made". Of course, personal identity is man-made. Have you ever met anyone who believes otherwise? In what kind of fantasy world do you live in? Do you perhaps live in the land of Donald Bush and Dick Disney?
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From donlay at knology.net Thu Dec 6 04:00:51 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Thu Dec 6 04:04:37 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
References: <ecdf86757f624a869337fffcb46d79be@johnconyers.com><E80921FE-3C95-44AD-993D-91D219545BEE@dc.rr.com><004e01c8378b$1bdc3fa0$b5c16018@DL01>
<3724CEDB-ED7B-4967-BF67-DACFD399CCA4@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c837b4$3668add0$b5c16018@DL01>
I have no idea who your Eugene Weber is ... -- df
Eugen Weber
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Eugen J. Weber (April 24, 1925, Bucharest - May 17, 2007, Brentwood, Los Angeles, California) was a prominent historian.
He immigrated to the United Kingdom from Romania as a young man and studied at the Ashville College in Windermere. During World War II, he served with the British Army in Belgium, Germany and India between 1943 and 1947. Afterwards, Weber studied history at the Sorbonne and Institut d'Etudes Politiques de Paris (Sciences Po) in Paris, France.
He lived in Britain for a time, graduating with a BA in 1950 and a MA from Cambridge in 1954. In 1950, he married Jacqueline Brument-Roth. Weber worked as a professor at Emmanuel College in Cambridge (1953-1954), University of Alberta (1954-1955), University of Iowa (1955-1956) and the University of California (1956-1993). He ultimately came to the United States, joining the faculty of UCLA. He published a variety of works, in addition to hosting The Western Tradition, a PBS program consisting of his lectures (available free on line) on the Western world.
Weber's main interest was French history. His first book, The Nationalist Revival in France, 1905-1914 was a study of integral nationalism in France in the decade before World War One. Weber was to follow this book with further studies in French fascism and right-wing radicalism in Action Fran?aise and Varieties of Fascism. Weber drew a strong distinction between what he considers to be reactionary authoritarian and fascist movements. At a conference in Moscow in 1970, Weber argued that "fascism and communism were not antithetical but fr?res ennemis".
Another area of interest for Weber was nation-building in France during the 19th century. He studied the political importance of sports in fin de si?cle France, where he has argued that contemporaries believed that healthy bodies made for healthy nations and weak bodies for decadent and defeated nations. Thus, Weber has presented a case that for the French in this period, sports were a matter of critical national importance.
In his seminal book Peasants Into Frenchmen, Weber examined school records, migration patterns, military service documents and economic trends to argue that until the middle of the Third Republic, a sense of French nationhood was weak in the provinces. Weber then looked at how the policies of the Third Republic created a sense of French nationality in rural areas. The book was widely praised, but was criticized by some historians who argued that a sense of Frenchness existed in the provinces before 1870.
Weber died of pancreatic cancer on May 17, 2007.
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
I have no idea who your Eugene Weber is, but there was never a Roman god called Christus who defeated death and rose on the third day. There were some gods previous to Jesus who died and were resurrected but none, so far as I know, by that name. If I am wrong please enlighten me.
don
On Dec 5, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Two millennia ago, people under Roman occupation could become a Roman citizen and therefore have personal rights by professing loyalty oath to Rome and maybe to a Roman god. It is greatly ironical a Jew who it is said professed an interest in truth became identified with the Roman God Christus who it was said, died and went to the grave, fought and there defeated death and rose on the third day (as per UCLA Historian Eugene Weber).
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From donlay at knology.net Thu Dec 6 04:19:57 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Thu Dec 6 04:23:41 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
References: <ecdf86757f624a869337fffcb46d79be@johnconyers.com><E80921FE-3C95-44AD-993D-91D219545BEE@dc.rr.com><004e01c8378b$1bdc3fa0$b5c16018@DL01>
<3724CEDB-ED7B-4967-BF67-DACFD399CCA4@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <00c801c837b6$e2808c30$b5c16018@DL01>
df: I have no idea who your Eugene Weber is, but there was never a Roman god called Christus who defeated death and rose on the third day. ...
dl: Are you certain?
df: If I am wrong please enlighten me.
dl: Enlighten you!?? -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
I have no idea who your Eugene Weber is, but there was never a Roman god called Christus who defeated death and rose on the third day. There were some gods previous to Jesus who died and were resurrected but none, so far as I know, by that name. If I am wrong please enlighten me.
don
On Dec 5, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Two millennia ago, people under Roman occupation could become a Roman citizen and therefore have personal rights by professing loyalty oath to Rome and maybe to a Roman god. It is greatly ironical a Jew who it is said professed an interest in truth became identified with the Roman God Christus who it was said, died and went to the grave, fought and there defeated death and rose on the third day (as per UCLA Historian Eugene Weber).
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From donlay at knology.net Thu Dec 6 04:59:26 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Thu Dec 6 05:03:05 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
References: <ecdf86757f624a869337fffcb46d79be@johnconyers.com><E80921FE-3C95-44AD-993D-91D219545BEE@dc.rr.com><004e01c8378b$1bdc3fa0$b5c16018@DL01>
<3724CEDB-ED7B-4967-BF67-DACFD399CCA4@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <00e201c837bc$64ecd0c0$b5c16018@DL01>
I have no idea who your Eugene Weber is .... -- df
What kind of reasoning would ignore Eugen Wever and refer to dl????????????
>From wikipedia .... Eugen J. Weber (April 24, 1925, Bucharest - May 17, 2007, Brentwood, Los Angeles, California) was a prominent historian.
Weber died of pancreatic cancer on May 17, 2007.
I'm really sad to see that this man died. He was a lovable figure. I loved seeing him on the TV giving his lectures on The Western Traditions.
I'm reminded of doing a segment on the significance of quantum physics at a local church where someone brought a tape of David Bohm giving a talk (as someone pointed out, I have read about Dancing woo li Guys). Bohm appeared to be around sixty-ish ... a smallish man, and it seemed he might have had a wig and his teeth clicked and clacked when he spoke. I recall being struck by the idea that he was a lovable sort of figure and appeared to be doing and saying what he felt was deeply important and meaningful. -- dl
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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Thu Dec 6 04:13:54 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Dec 6 09:17:17 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
In-Reply-To: <00be01c837b4$3668add0$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <ecdf86757f624a869337fffcb46d79be@johnconyers.com><E80921FE-3C95-44AD-993D-91D219545BEE@dc.rr.com><004e01c8378b$1bdc3fa0$b5c16018@DL01>
<3724CEDB-ED7B-4967-BF67-DACFD399CCA4@dc.rr.com>
<00be01c837b4$3668add0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <3FCA36EB-6422-43BB-B8C9-D98CFF3A92D4@dc.rr.com>
Ah, Eugen not Eugene. Sorry to hear about his death, but he was
certainly not an expert on Biblical history nor mythology if he said
or wrote about a Roman god called Christus.
don
Dying and Resurrected Gods: Archetypal Manifestations of
Psychological Need
By Ralph Monday
He who speaks with primordial images speaks with a thousand tongues?
(Carl Jung)
Every culture that is examined, whether ancient or modern, has the
concept of a dying and resurrected god. The manifestation takes many
forms and is as primal as the unconscious recognition of the deep
spiritual meaning grafted onto the vernal equinox, the present
religious veneer just as superficial and with as little "true" depth
as a drying stream. That river bed, though not quite as full as it
has been for the past several millennia, can be reasonably and
inevitably traced to (if not the ultimate source, at least a primary
one) the Nile, Euphrates, and Tigris. For it is in these regions that
the archetypal image of the dying/reborn god has most powerfully
shaped the Western ethos and sent the stream, at first a compelling,
full flowing fount in the ego strength of unbridled youth, adolescent
in the time of Constantine, thorough maturity from Charlemagne to
Luther, a bit decrepit now in the early twenty-first century, heir of
Newton, Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein, but yet even now, the majority
of the masses stand straddling that stream, one foot planted firmly
in an ancient and medieval mindset, the other faced with the
postmodern realization of the ravages done to the cool water by
science and technology. The paradigm shift that has been occurring
since at least the Renaissance, and baring some major upheaval of
Western Civilization, most likely will continue at an accelerated
pace, and yet the yearning for the god who perished, but mysteriously
and paradoxically lives, continues. The anthropomorphic hopes and
dreams of a collective humanity are grafted onto the image, perhaps
even intertwined somewhere deep in homo sapien DNA structure, and it
is most likely here, in the ancient, ancestral, shadowy regions of
human consciousness that a logical explanation can be found. In
regard to this matter Joseph Campbell said,
"Mythology-and therefore civilization-is a poetic, per-normal image,
conceived, like all poetry, in depth, but susceptible of
interpretation on various levels. The shallowest minds see in it the
local scenery; the deepest, the foreground of the void; and between
are all the stages of the Way from the ethnic to the elementary idea,
the local to the universal being, which is Everyman, as he both knows
and is afraid to know. For the human mind...is the ultimate
mythogenetic zone-the creator and destroyer, the slave and yet the
master, of all the gods." (qtd. in Salyer 57)
The dying and resurrected god images under discussion (there are many
others) are: the Osiris, Isis, Horus Egyptian resurrectional trinity
and the Sumerian/Babylonian Tammuz. These myths can be looked upon as
variations upon one great human mythical symphony, what Joseph
Campbell called the "monomyth." An argument is made that these
archetypal symbols are psychological projections of the collective
unconscious, the need of the human mind faced with the overwhelming
specter of imminent mortality to fashion eternal symbols of human
resurrection married to the god's victory over the shadowy domain of
death, a spiritual transcendence of the physical underworld to the
numinous realm of eternal spirit, logos, the human and the divine
united in a transcendent marriage of cycles of life, death, and
infinite revitalization. This is the role of the dying/reborn god.
This is the message to the believer, for they all share a similar
pattern: "Beginning with some violent cosmic or social crisis, and
culminating in the suffering of a mysterious victim (often at the
hands of a furious mob), all these myths conclude with the triumphal
return of the sufferer, thereby revealed as a divinity" (Girard 46).
Osiris, Isis, Horus
Osiris is one of the earliest examples, Egyptian, in human culture of
the dying and resurrected god. Frazer, in The Golden Bough, pointed
out that in his estimation the dying and reborn god was originally
tied to and connected with fertility rituals: the reborn vegetation
in the spring, the cyclical waning and waxing of the moon. This may
well be accurate, but clearly over time the vegetation rites
apparently slid into a forgotten past, and at some time in cultural
affirmation the dying/reborn god assumed anthropic genesis and was
transformed into a psychological interpretation of the need for an
eternal spiritual life.
Osiris was the Egyptian savior god and the chief deity of death, and
the only god to rival the solar cult of Ra. His death came about when
he was drowned, later dismembered, and the more than fourteen pieces
of his desecrated body were scattered across the land and water by
the brother of both Isis and her husband Osiris-Seth, (World
Mythology 40-41) "god of evil, darkness, drought,
perversity" (Knapp). After the death of Osiris, Isis searched for and
found his body. Then, with Nut's (Osiris' mother) assistance, she
resurrected the corpse except for the genitals which fish had eaten
(World Mythology 41). This miraculous revival demonstrates that
Osiris was one of the earliest archetypes of the dying and
resurrected god. His cult spread widely during the time of the Roman
Empire and was a large and important body of worship in many Roman
provinces. Jung recognized this Egyptian prototype for he wrote,
"...the Christian era itself owes its name and significance to the
antique mystery of the god-man, which has its roots in the archetypal
Osiris-Horus myth"...(Man and His Symbols 79). In addition, to
further emphasize the tacitly stated historical connection of an
actual living man who died and was reborn, there is an historical
remnant indicating that the god was an authentic king in the distant
Egyptian past who ruled from his capital in the delta, and that his
death was brought about by a rebellious Ombos in upper Egypt, a city
sacred to the dark god Seth (World Mythology 42).
Plutarch's chronicle of the birth, life, and death of Osiris is well
known. Osiris was the god who had been metaphorically crucified,
died, journeyed to the underworld, and then triumphantly rose again.
Through the terrible ordeal of suffering that Osiris experienced, the
ancient Egyptian believer held faith that his own mortal frame might
at some point in the future after his death, live again in a
phantasmagoric transformation or in some exalted shape. The believer
offered prayers to his resurrected god, Osiris, who had conquered
death and become lord of the otherworld, that eternal life would be
granted, the archetypal idea of rebirth from death clearly
demonstrated. On all known funeral inscriptions including pyramid
texts to prayers inscribed on coffins in the Roman Empire, the
believer symbolically identified with Osiris and the idea that if the
god lived forever, so, too, would the suppliant. An even clearer idea
of this belief is held in the XVIIIth, or early in the XIXth dynasty
where Osiris is called the king of eternity, the lord of
everlastingness, who traverseth millions of years in the duration of
his life, the firstborn son of the womb of Nut, begotten of Seb
(Geb), the prince of gods and men, the god of gods, the king of
kings, the lord of lords, the prince of princes, the governor of the
world, from the womb of Nut, whose existence is for
everlasting,...Unnefer of many forms and of many attributes, Tmu in
Annu, the lord of Akert,...the only one, the lord of the land on each
side of the celestial Nile." (Legend of Osiris)
In another context Osiris' rebirth from death can be seen as related
to fertility/vegetation rituals as the concept of God's renewal which
symbolically is grafted psychologically onto the reborn god object:
This is a well-known primordial image that is...universal...the whole
mythological complex of the dying and resurgent god...expresses a
transformation of attitude by means of which a new potential, a new
manifestation of life...is created. This latter analogy explains the
well-attested connection between the renewal of the god and seasonal
and vegetational phenomena. (Jung Psychological Types 193-194)
These myths began in the eastern Mediterranean (The Levant, the
Middle East, Mesopotamia, Persia-Assyria-Syria), where farming
cultures developed religions that celebrated the yearly return of
crop fertility, where Gaia "religions had Gods who personified the
cycle-of-nature by dying in the autumn and being reborn in the
spring" (Pagan Christs). Clearly, Osiris was viewed as a symbol of
new and eternal life.
Tammuz, Babylonian God of Vegetation
Tammuz was an ancient Babylonian archetype of the dying and reborn
god. He was connected with agriculture and livestock as well as wild
animals. His personification was that of the cyclic rebirth of nature
in the spring, and he was the consort of Ishtar, goddess of
fertility, for like the majority of these primordial manifestations
of the resurrected life force, in earth based religious traditions
the god and the goddess are equally represented for life springs from
pairs of opposites, dualities that form again and again the complete
trinity. One legend states that Ishtar
was so filled with grief over Tammuz's death that she...contrived to
enter the underworld to get him back. According to another legend,
she killed him and later restored him to life. These legends and his
festival, which took place in the early spring, commemorating the
yearly death and rebirth of vegetation, corresponded to the festivals
of the Phoenician and Greek Adonis and of the Phrygian Attis. (Leeflang)
Furthermore, Tammuz was also recognized as the river god of the
Tigris and Euphrates, and he was also the son and brother of Ishtar,
for the two came together when the world began where she gave birth
to Tammuz, had sexual intercourse with him and yet remained a virgin.
After his death in the summer all vegetation also perished and Ishtar
searched for him around the globe. When she finally descended into
the underworld and found her consort, she resurrected the god in the
spring and the world came back to life with his rise from the grave,
(The Goddess Ishtar) reminiscent of renewed life in many ancient
stories of these primordial archetypes. Likewise Lindemans writes
that ...[Tammuz was the] Akkadian vegetation-god, counterpart of the
Sumerian Damuzi and the symbol of death and rebirth in nature. He is
the son of Ea and husband of Ishtar. Each year he dies in the hot
summer (in the month tammus, June/July) and his soul is taken by the
Gallu demons to the underworld. Woe and desolation fall upon the
earth, and Ishtar leads the world in lamentation. She then descends
to the nether world, ruled by Ereshkigal, and after many trials
succeeds in bringing him back, as a result of which fertility and joy
return to the earth. In Syria he was identified with Adonis. (Tammuz)
So Tammuz, too, is identified with the concept of the eternal dying
and resurrected god. Both Osiris and Tammuz represent, perhaps, the
development of the Christ myth in western civilization and this is
connected to man's urge to dramatize when dealing with supernatural
realities. The human mind is given to project an unconscious
archetypal image onto people or objects, creating mythical figures. A
mythical image of a godman, who redeems heroically the fragile
fragmented man of his failures/sins and offers an escape, a ray of
hope, holds sway over him. When the true nature of the target figure
is seen, the projection is shattered into pieces. A fallen idol
remains, but the archetypal desire for the human race to achieve ego
immortality remains. When one god dies, another is created to replace
the deceased object; so has such a belief always been, likely it will
always remain.
Works Cited:
Campbell, Joseph. The Masks of God: Occidental Mythology, New York,
Arkana, 1981.
Cotterell, Arthur. A Dictionary of World Mythology, Melbourne: Oxford
University Press, 1990.
Girard, Rene. "Are the Gospels Mythical?" Quadrant, V. 43. i12. Dec.
1999.
10 Feb. 2004. Expanded Adademic ASAP. TEL. Roane State Community
College.
Goddess Ishtar, The," 29 March 2004. <http://inanna.virtualave.net/
ishtar.html#Relations>.
Jung, Carl. Man and His Symbols, New York: Anchor Press, 1964.
Jung, Carl. The Type Problem in Poetry, Psychological Types.
Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1971.
Knapp, Bettina. "The Archetypal Woman Fulfilled: Isis, Harmony of
Flesh/Spirit/Logos," Symposium, V. 50 N. 1. Spring (1996). 28-40. 6
Feb. 2004. Expanded Academic ASAP. TEL. Roane State Community College.
Leeflang, Tracy. "Tammuz, Babylonian God of Vegetation." 1999. 07 Apr
2004. <http://www.dutchie.org/Tracy/tam.html>.
Legend of Osiris, The. <http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/
ebod04.htm>.
Lindemans, Micha F. Tammuz, Encyclopedia Mythica 03 03 1997. 07 Apr
2004 <http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tammuz.html>.
Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth. Pagan Christs. <http://
home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/
PaganChrists_introduction.html>.
Salyer, Gregory. "Interpreting Campbell: Hermeneutics and Comparative
Mythology." Uses of Comparative Mythology: Essays on the Work of
Joseph Campbell. Ed. Kenneth L. Golden. New York: Garland Publishing
Inc., 1992. 57.
On Dec 5, 2007, at 7:00 PM, Don Lay wrote:
> I have no idea who your Eugene Weber is ... -- df
>
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From landmana at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 11:29:54 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Thu Dec 6 11:33:34 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
In-Reply-To: <673BBE23-A85F-45EB-BD51-853A76A7F493@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <211550.21491.qm@web57408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi don. Yes.Someone might say this: My --daily-- bread, this is nothing but flour and water. Now try this: Add, introduce, even minutely, some other things in that mix, like a bit salt and yeast, and "all of a sudden" you have a whole 'nother animal. Literally from, as well as in, a whole 'nother dimension. AL
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote: Maybe because some of us are here in order to gain a greater understanding of the "whole thing" rather than to behave as academics who devote their lives to simply studying just one fragment of it.
don
On Dec 5, 2007, at 1:23 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Maybe, but why, for what reason?
That is, seeing that the English word reason derives from the Greek word logos, and that we are subscribed to this that known ad Bohm Dialogue on line, dialogue deriving from the Greek reason -- what reason is involved with Thought as a System and over-population dynamics? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. You could ask and examine, side by side, Thought-as-a-System and Over-Population-Dynamics. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: Maybe, but why? -- dl
http:From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi Don Lay. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean to them. You could study mono-cultures and what pests mean. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: Map-maker and map are one process ... -- Al
I see this POV.
However, a very common POV says that when the word, map, is used, it does not point to the territory and it does not point to the "maker" of the map. The word map is used to stand for, symbolize, a territory -- not the maker of the map.
What is the meaning of these differing Points of View? Is the meaning that there is fused, con-fused points of views? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Map-maker and map are one process; to a lesser extend (lower dimension) two products. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. -- AL
Hi Al. I can see how that view might be useful. However, that view does not appear to address what db/thought addresses in db's remarks about the self and especially the identified personal self.
One view is that Bohm means that a map can be made of SOS language. For example, language can create or present a mental scenario in thought or in consciousness, and no "real place on Earth" can be found that the mental scenario actually points to.
Look for example at when people act and pretend being something they are not, just because "in there" in their thought systems, it creates good FEELS like the acting and pretending of fantasy can produce endorphins.
That kind of mental scenario has been treated for millennia as something "made up" by a confused mind, something presented purely by thought and does not re-present imagery "out there" outside the mind that creates it.
Can you see this view that this reasoning points to? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi dl. Any territory is nothing but a map. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: When Bohm says that "self is a map without a territory", maybe part of the meaning is that when using language to reference a self, then by definition of the way language functions, something like an image is used "in there" in tas or in mind to stand for the individual named.
Clearly, the individual referenced by the image is not identical the image by use of the reason that meaningful use of language requires the use of the image as symbol.
Speaking of insanity, is it not insane to use symbols and then act and pretend they are not symbols, but are the actuality referenced by the symbol?
Is not this what Bohm references with the idea that the "self is a map without a territory"? That is, we use symbols as if they are the actuality.
It seems the significance of the quantum discoveries is that at the quantum level of awareness the symbol is not and cannot be the symbolized.
And doesn't Bohm's use of the self as "a map without a territory" point to the idea that the language symbolism modern man has inherited is based largely upon the notion of the separated observer and observed that the quantum discoveries have shown to be faulty?
Once again, this is difficult to talk about because it seems we all use language reflexively or mechanically without awareness and therefore without much meaning.
Anyone else see this as being meaningful? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi donF. DL does assume an "attraction for Bohm", does reference not by whom, though. AL
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
DL might like to check out this link which may help to answer some of his questions. But even better would be if he read "Koinonia", In the meanwhile, he might go from this link to the "connections" link to see how Bohm fits in. to what Diversity is up to.
Part two: I don't understand your comment about DonL's question, AL. Is it the question below that you are inquiring about? What is incomplete, and what are the unfounded premises? I am curious. I too, consider DeMare's work of great importance in the furtherance of this dialogue project. Koinonia is a difficult book - it probably tries to bring more territory than a lot of readers want to handle. It may also offer some insight into the sort of stuff that Eric has objected to.
don (donF)
On Dec 2, 2007, at 10:06 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi DL. Not drawing a line, I am not in a position to survey. As for your other question, it appears to be incomplete or based on an unfounded premise. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Al, is De Mare mostly known as a therapist or as a theorist/thinker re group dynamics?
What was the attraction for Bohm? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi DL. Thanks. It depends, like anything else, on the frame-work of re-presentation of "self-image" in usage. The idea of liking does not surface here when it comes to going through their work. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: Hi Al. Welcome.
Does Bohm's ideas regarding the identified personal self or self-image derive from De Mare?
Evidently, Bohm considers the self and self-image to have limited meaning.
Perhaps because at the level of quantum movement it has no meaning.
What do you like about De Mare/Bohm thought? -- dl
From: Alfred Landman
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
Hi fellow listserv-members -
I am new to this group. My interest in the work of Patrick De Mare brought me to David Bohm and his writings. I just finished some of his books and want to join your discussion. Has the body of contributions of this forum over the years taken the ideas and the proposal of dialogue to another level from where Bohm left things off? Can you point me and other readers to any progress in this quest? Thank you.
AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
What horseshit!
From: william
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Random Bohm quotes on Image
>I: I truly, truly hope you are right. I am glad that you escaped the trap.
>Sometimes they refuse to stay where you can confront them. Then what?
Don't worry, he is not going to run away. If he is a fighter then he will face the confrontation. Wait and see...
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From landmana at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 11:53:58 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Thu Dec 6 11:57:38 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <47572134.000001.05940@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <541449.75596.qm@web57401.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi william. Anticonceptie. Birth.Control _ For a "start". Vraag.Teken. AL
william <w@david-bohm.net> wrote: v\:* {behavior:url (#default#vml);} v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url (#default#vml) } >"Suspension" just grows and grows. Where the surface fruits of "suspension" are
>appreciated, suspension through the strata begins to show its appeal. The fruits of
>suspension [of action, which includes speech, in relation to what is read or heard] are
>that something unknown surfaces as a possible response. Very satisfying to respond
>with these. But these too, can be suspended. It may take awhile to be able to do this
>because the little bit of satisfaction needs to be "invested." Very long story short, with
>each "reinvestment" something even more amazing surfaces.
>Eventually, there comes the curiosity about a kind of 'complete investment'. This is the
>logical conclusion of Bohm's brilliant but humble and simple proposal of "suspension'.
>Along the way of this, and relatively soon though, you will find yourself responding with
>things you have never heard of before. So the process is never not fun. And there is no
>rush for the "completion."
>-- funny
Is there anyone out there who can make sense out of this? I am sorry "funny" but to me it sounds as if you are drunk or crazy or demented. Or could you possibly be enlightened, or are you an unrecognized artist, or some brilliant genious ahead of his time, or what else could this be? Is there anyway this could be understood as something other than sheer nonsense? Or if you are talking from some higher intelligence could you please come down and try to explain it to this stupid chimpansee?
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From w at david-bohm.net Thu Dec 6 12:48:40 2007
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Thu Dec 6 12:52:26 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
References: <009f01c837b1$e44efce0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <4757E198.000005.05940@VAIO-584793128F>
>>Of course, personal identity is man-made. -- w
>Such a statement seems to suggest that people are somehow unreal, that
people act
>and pretend they actually are their personal identity and, in that sense,
are actors
>and pretenders as suggested by the idea of the mask of persona. What might
be
>the meaning of this. -- dl
Personal identity is a highly sophisticated human invention, the purpose of
which should be obvious. It is the foundation of many other inventions such
as property, money, law and liability. I am sure many books have been
written about the development of personal identity and it's purpose. It's
true, personal identity has to be acted out but the intellectual capacity of
people is generally sufficient to do this. I know of one or two people who
cannot do it and they are in the care of someone who does it for them. I don
t understand why you keep going on about this question of personal identity.
Is this too complicated for you?
We are not at the end of this development. Nowadays, in complex
organizations there is an increasing tendency to assign multiple identities
to one and the same person. I was in one of those organizations for a while.
With the "human resources" department you are registered under your civil
identity but in the technical departments you would be known under different
resource identities. The human resource manager assigns resource identities.
I.e. one could work in one department as "resource X" for several hours,
then switch identity to become "resource Y" and work for another department
or on some other project. It has something to do with accounting and
auditing requirements from the financial and legal departments. For instance
as resource X, i once needed authorization for something from resource Y,
which happened to be one of my other identities. So, as resource X, i sent
an email to resource Y requesting authorization. I subsequently
authenticated myself as resource Y and granted resource X the requested
authorization. The technical term for this identity management is
impersonation', which is a special use of the word in the dictionary.
Until recently, personal identity was restricted to a simple "one man, one
identity" scenario: A person was given one single permanent identity for the
rest of one's life. That was easy. But in a more complex scenario, when you
pick up the phone or log on to a computer, you have to remember which
resource" you are impersonating at the moment.
So, while i agree with you, Mr Lay, about your thing about "acting and
pretending" as you like to call it, i still wonder what's the meaning of
making such a fuss about it. Is it worth it to spend so much time on such an
easy point?
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From w at david-bohm.net Thu Dec 6 12:54:48 2007
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Thu Dec 6 12:58:33 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fwd: Setting the Record Straight on persons
References: <0E8A95D2-54B0-42ED-99F0-0A9C82E62CD6@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4757E308.000007.05940@VAIO-584793128F>
>>In what kind of fantasy world do you live in? Do you perhaps live in the
land of
>>Donald Bush and Dick Disney?
>Donald Bush
>
>???
>
>don
I meant the land of Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse, currently impersonated by
Bush and Dick.
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From w at david-bohm.net Thu Dec 6 13:07:31 2007
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Thu Dec 6 13:11:16 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Language, Map, and Email Identities
References: <541449.75596.qm@web57401.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4757E603.00000B.05940@VAIO-584793128F>
>Hi william. Anticonceptie. Birth.Control _ For a "start". Vraag.Teken. AL
If you meant to say something, I'm not hearing it. Vraagteken indeed!
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Thu Dec 6 17:38:29 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Thu Dec 6 17:38:34 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Unfolding of "layered" suspending - was: Language,
Map, and Email Identities
Message-ID: <20071206.113837.2428.146.ae.dropper@juno.com>
"The principle here is the same as that advanced by Rudolf Steiner when
he advised teachers to prepare their lessons painstakingly and then be
ready to sacrifice the prepared plan at the dictate of circumstances
which may point to an entirely fresh approach to their material."
from: THE ART OF GOETHEAN CONVERSATION
This speaks to what I was saying - except "sacrifice the prepared plan "
again and again.
The response gets more and more "whole" each time. It draws on more of
what the group
is saying as a whole. And with a little experience one comes to see the
"sacrifices"
[of the satisfactions] as "investments" in evermore surprising surprises.
Or, one
could say that one is "spending" the satisfaction of the response on what
further
"suspending" might yield in terms of an even more surprising response.
Simple suspension alone though has yielded
surprise from the start. It's just an amazing discovery
[the unfolding of this "layered" suspending] for someone really
interested in "suspension."
Not recommending; just reporting.
-- funny
>"Suspension" just grows and grows. Where the surface fruits of
"suspension" are
>appreciated, suspension through the strata begins to show its appeal.
The fruits of
>suspension [of action, which includes speech, in relation to what is
read or heard] are
>that something unknown surfaces as a possible response. Very satisfying
to respond
>with these. But these too, can be suspended. It may take awhile to be
able to do this
>because the little bit of satisfaction needs to be "invested." Very long
story short, with
>each "reinvestment" something even more amazing surfaces.
>Eventually, there comes the curiosity about a kind of 'complete
investment'. This is the
>logical conclusion of Bohm's brilliant but humble and simple proposal of
"suspension'.
>Along the way of this, and relatively soon though, you will find
yourself responding with
>things you have never heard of before. So the process is never not fun.
And there is no
>rush for the "completion."
>-- funny
Is there anyone out there who can make sense out of this? I am sorry
"funny" but to me it sounds as if you are drunk or crazy or demented. Or
could you possibly be enlightened, or are you an unrecognized artist, or
some brilliant genious ahead of his time, or what else could this be? Is
there anyway this could be understood as something other than sheer
nonsense? Or if you are talking from some higher intelligence could you
please come down and try to explain it to this stupid chimpansee?
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 17:42:14 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Thu Dec 6 17:46:04 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Unfolding of "layered" suspending - was: Language,
Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <20071206.113837.2428.146.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20071206.113837.2428.146.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712060842n15458010nb4a4106d0127dffc@mail.gmail.com>
I: This is the principle of improvisation, and why the art of improvisation
in any area leads to being comfortable with a flexible, changing context in
any life context. For instance, I'm finding that the study of musical
improvisation is as much brain training as anything else.
And it's an attitude.
On Dec 6, 2007 11:38 AM, <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> "The principle here is the same as that advanced by Rudolf Steiner when
> he advised teachers to prepare their lessons painstakingly and then be ready
> to sacrifice the prepared plan at the dictate of circumstances which may
> point to an *entirely fresh approach* to their material."
>
> from: THE ART OF GOETHEAN CONVERSATION
>
> This speaks to what I was saying - except "sacrifice the prepared plan "
> again and again.
>
> The response gets more and more "whole" each time. It draws on more of
> what the group
>
> is saying as a whole. And with a little experience one comes to see the
> "sacrifices"
>
> [of the satisfactions] as "investments" in evermore surprising surprises.
> Or, one
>
> could say that one is "*spending*" the satisfaction of the response on
> what further
>
> "*suspending*" might yield in terms of an even more surprising response.
>
>
>
> Simple suspension alone though has yielded
>
> surprise from the start. It's just an amazing discovery
>
> [the unfolding of this "layered" suspending] for someone really interested
> in "suspension."
>
> Not recommending; just reporting.
>
> -- funny
>
>
> >"Suspension" just grows and grows. Where the surface fruits of
> "suspension" are
> >appreciated, suspension through the strata begins to show its appeal. The
> fruits of
> >suspension [of action, which includes speech, in relation to what is read
> or heard] are
> >that something unknown surfaces as a possible response. Very satisfying
> to respond
> >with these. But these too, can be suspended. It may take awhile to be
> able to do this
> >because the little bit of satisfaction needs to be "invested." Very long
> story short, with
> >each "reinvestment" something even more amazing surfaces.
> >Eventually, there comes the curiosity about a kind of 'complete
> investment'. This is the
> >logical conclusion of Bohm's brilliant but humble and simple proposal of
> "suspension'.
> >Along the way of this, and relatively soon though, you will find
> yourself responding with
> >things you have never heard of before. So the process is never not fun.
> And there is no
> >rush for the "completion."
> >-- funny
>
> Is there anyone out there who can make sense out of this? I am sorry
> "funny" but to me it sounds as if you are drunk or crazy or demented. Or
> could you possibly be enlightened, or are you an unrecognized artist, or
> some brilliant genious ahead of his time, or what else could this be? Is
> there anyway this could be understood as something other than sheer
> nonsense? Or if you are talking from some higher intelligence could you
> please come down and try to explain it to this stupid chimpansee?
>
>
> <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue>
>
>
--
Irene
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Thu Dec 6 19:25:36 2007
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Thu Dec 6 19:29:24 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Unfolding of "layered" suspending - was:
Language, Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712060842n15458010nb4a4106d0127dffc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C37D8CB0.F694%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Yes, and yes, again. This is a discovery that is so important to me,
probably since so hard won (and I have to keep re-learning!). (I am
reminded of the comment, Life is what happens when you make plans.) That
attitude of openness, of letting go of expectations is so freeing. I find
it in meditation. I find it grappling with Bohm?s ideas or Buddhist ideas
(often similar). As my awareness grows, so do my opportunities to suspend.
That leads to listening more, actually hearing more. In the process, I seem
to expand (like the Grinch?s heart).
Lynne
On 12/6/07 9:42 AM, "Irene Darcy" <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
> I: This is the principle of improvisation, and why the art of improvisation
> in any area leads to being comfortable with a flexible, changing context in
> any life context. For instance, I'm finding that the study of musical
> improvisation is as much brain training as anything else.
> And it's an attitude.
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2007 11:38 AM, <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>> "The principle here is the same as that advanced by Rudolf Steiner when he
>> advised teachers to prepare their lessons painstakingly and then be ready to
>> sacrifice the prepared plan at the dictate of circumstances which may point
>> to an entirely fresh approach to their material."
>>
>> from: THE ART OF GOETHEAN CONVERSATION
>>
>> This speaks to what I was saying - except "sacrifice the prepared plan "
>> again and again.
>>
>> The response gets more and more "whole" each time. It draws on more of what
>> the group
>>
>> is saying as a whole. And with a little experience one comes to see the
>> "sacrifices"
>>
>> [of the satisfactions] as "investments" in evermore surprising surprises. Or,
>> one
>>
>> could say that one is "spending" the satisfaction of the response on what
>> further
>>
>> "suspending" might yield in terms of an even more surprising response.
>>
>>
>>
>> Simple suspension alone though has yielded
>>
>> surprise from the start. It's just an amazing discovery
>>
>> [the unfolding of this "layered" suspending] for someone really interested in
>> "suspension."
>>
>> Not recommending; just reporting.
>>
>> -- funny
>>
>>
>>
>>> >"Suspension" just grows and grows. Where the surface fruits of "suspension"
>>> are
>>> >appreciated, suspension through the strata begins to show its appeal. The
>>> fruits of
>>> >suspension [of action, which includes speech, in relation to what is read
>>> or heard] are
>>> >that something unknown surfaces as a possible response. Very satisfying to
>>> respond
>>> >with these. But these too, can be suspended. It may take awhile to be able
>>> to do this
>>> >because the little bit of satisfaction needs to be "invested." Very long
>>> story short, with
>>> >each "reinvestment" something even more amazing surfaces.
>>> >Eventually, there comes the curiosity about a kind of 'complete
>>> investment'. This is the
>>> >logical conclusion of Bohm's brilliant but humble and simple proposal of
>>> "suspension'.
>>> >Along the way of this, and relatively soon though, you will find yourself
>>> responding with
>>> >things you have never heard of before. So the process is never not fun. And
>>> there is no
>>> >rush for the "completion."
>>> >-- funny
>>
>> Is there anyone out there who can make sense out of this? I am sorry "funny"
>> but to me it sounds as if you are drunk or crazy or demented. Or could you
>> possibly be enlightened, or are you an unrecognized artist, or some brilliant
>> genious ahead of his time, or what else could this be? Is there anyway this
>> could be understood as something other than sheer nonsense? Or if you are
>> talking from some higher intelligence could you please come down and try to
>> explain it to this stupid chimpansee?
>>
>>
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From landmana at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 20:06:47 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Thu Dec 6 20:10:31 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Unfolding of "layered" suspending - was: Language,
Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <C37D8CB0.F694%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <157312.90962.qm@web57413.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi Lynne Tolk. Whisk together eggs and vanilla in a small bowl, then whisk into cooled chocolate mixture until combined well. Add flour mixture and whisk until just combined --batter will be thin and bubbly. Pour batter into bundt pan and bake until a wooden pick or skewer inserted in center comes out clean, 40 to 50 minutes. AL
Lynne Tolk <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote: Yes, and yes, again. This is a discovery that is so important to me, probably since so hard won (and I have to keep re-learning!). (I am reminded of the comment, Life is what happens when you make plans.) That attitude of openness, of letting go of expectations is so freeing. I find it in meditation. I find it grappling with Bohm?s ideas or Buddhist ideas (often similar). As my awareness grows, so do my opportunities to suspend. That leads to listening more, actually hearing more. In the process, I seem to expand (like the Grinch?s heart).
Lynne
On 12/6/07 9:42 AM, "Irene Darcy" <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: This is the principle of improvisation, and why the art of improvisation in any area leads to being comfortable with a flexible, changing context in any life context. For instance, I'm finding that the study of musical improvisation is as much brain training as anything else.
And it's an attitude.
On Dec 6, 2007 11:38 AM, <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
"The principle here is the same as that advanced by Rudolf Steiner when he advised teachers to prepare their lessons painstakingly and then be ready to sacrifice the prepared plan at the dictate of circumstances which may point to an entirely fresh approach to their material."
from: THE ART OF GOETHEAN CONVERSATION
This speaks to what I was saying - except "sacrifice the prepared plan " again and again.
The response gets more and more "whole" each time. It draws on more of what the group
is saying as a whole. And with a little experience one comes to see the "sacrifices"
[of the satisfactions] as "investments" in evermore surprising surprises. Or, one
could say that one is "spending" the satisfaction of the response on what further
"suspending" might yield in terms of an even more surprising response.
Simple suspension alone though has yielded
surprise from the start. It's just an amazing discovery
[the unfolding of this "layered" suspending] for someone really interested in "suspension."
Not recommending; just reporting.
-- funny
>"Suspension" just grows and grows. Where the surface fruits of "suspension" are
>appreciated, suspension through the strata begins to show its appeal. The fruits of
>suspension [of action, which includes speech, in relation to what is read or heard] are
>that something unknown surfaces as a possible response. Very satisfying to respond
>with these. But these too, can be suspended. It may take awhile to be able to do this
>because the little bit of satisfaction needs to be "invested." Very long story short, with
>each "reinvestment" something even more amazing surfaces.
>Eventually, there comes the curiosity about a kind of 'complete investment'. This is the
>logical conclusion of Bohm's brilliant but humble and simple proposal of "suspension'.
>Along the way of this, and relatively soon though, you will find yourself responding with
>things you have never heard of before. So the process is never not fun. And there is no
>rush for the "completion."
>-- funny
Is there anyone out there who can make sense out of this? I am sorry "funny" but to me it sounds as if you are drunk or crazy or demented. Or could you possibly be enlightened, or are you an unrecognized artist, or some brilliant genious ahead of his time, or what else could this be? Is there anyway this could be understood as something other than sheer nonsense? Or if you are talking from some higher intelligence could you please come down and try to explain it to this stupid chimpansee?
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Thu Dec 6 22:03:18 2007
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Thu Dec 6 22:07:08 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Unfolding of "layered" suspending - was:
Language, Map, and Email Identities
In-Reply-To: <157312.90962.qm@web57413.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C37DB1A6.F6A1%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Hi Al, It?s a pleasure to meet you. One of my favorite hobbies is baking.
The catalyst of heat works wonders. A similar thing happens to the seeds I
plant in the spring.
Lynne
On 12/6/07 12:06 PM, "Alfred Landman" <landmana@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Lynne Tolk. Whisk together eggs and vanilla in a small bowl, then whisk
> into cooled chocolate mixture until combined well. Add flour mixture and whisk
> until just combined --batter will be thin and bubbly. Pour batter into bundt
> pan and bake until a wooden pick or skewer inserted in center comes out clean,
> 40 to 50 minutes. AL
>
> Lynne Tolk <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
>> Yes, and yes, again. This is a discovery that is so important to me,
>> probably since so hard won (and I have to keep re-learning!). (I am reminded
>> of the comment, Life is what happens when you make plans.) That attitude of
>> openness, of letting go of expectations is so freeing. I find it in
>> meditation. I find it grappling with Bohm?s ideas or Buddhist ideas (often
>> similar). As my awareness grows, so do my opportunities to suspend. That
>> leads to listening more, actually hearing more. In the process, I seem to
>> expand (like the Grinch?s heart).
>>
>> Lynne
>> On 12/6/07 9:42 AM, "Irene Darcy" <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I: This is the principle of improvisation, and why the art of improvisation
>>> in any area leads to being comfortable with a flexible, changing context in
>>> any life context. For instance, I'm finding that the study of musical
>>> improvisation is as much brain training as anything else.
>>> And it's an attitude.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 6, 2007 11:38 AM, <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "The principle here is the same as that advanced by Rudolf Steiner when he
>>>> advised teachers to prepare their lessons painstakingly and then be ready
>>>> to sacrifice the prepared plan at the dictate of circumstances which may
>>>> point to an entirely fresh approach to their material."
>>>>
>>>> from: THE ART OF GOETHEAN CONVERSATION
>>>>
>>>> This speaks to what I was saying - except "sacrifice the prepared plan "
>>>> again and again.
>>>>
>>>> The response gets more and more "whole" each time. It draws on more of what
>>>> the group
>>>>
>>>> is saying as a whole. And with a little experience one comes to see the
>>>> "sacrifices"
>>>>
>>>> [of the satisfactions] as "investments" in evermore surprising surprises.
>>>> Or, one
>>>>
>>>> could say that one is "spending" the satisfaction of the response on what
>>>> further
>>>>
>>>> "suspending" might yield in terms of an even more surprising response.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Simple suspension alone though has yielded
>>>>
>>>> surprise from the start. It's just an amazing discovery
>>>>
>>>> [the unfolding of this "layered" suspending] for someone really interested
>>>> in "suspension."
>>>>
>>>> Not recommending; just reporting.
>>>>
>>>> -- funny
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