From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 08:01:05 2006 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Thu Nov 9 09:04:41 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles Message-ID: <20061108070105.17566.qmail@web52904.mail.yahoo.com> i didnt realize you two were 71 and 81. you sounded wise but energetic, like you could have been 40 or so. im 24. i have been enjoying the exchanges in the last day or so. thanks william, susan, dorothy, and kathryn. kari ----- Original Message ---- From: Dorothy Stulberg <DStulberg@msw-law.com> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 12:03:56 PM Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles Good to hear about you and your past and your present. Are you using the conflict resolution skills today? I was just trained as a faciliator. Not sure I have what it takes. Just finished a mediation which upset me terribly. It cost me $800 to end up with no move on the other side. I've really decided that mediation works when a "person" is there, not a corporation. Your email made me think a little about the age of those of us who message back and forth. Your 71 and my 81 made me wonder if we are doing anything to introduce the younger folks to the beauty of dialogue. D -----Original Message----- From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Morgan Jett Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:51 PM To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles Hi Susan - No we haven't met. I don't mind at all giving information about myself. I'm Kathy, 71 year old retired bilingual Spanish and music teacher and composer, originally from Florida, with 35 years of service, 10 years in Puerto Rico, and over 40 years living in NYC. I was also one of the first teachers to be trained in conflict resolution. I have 2 sons by a Puerto Rican father, and raised them alone/working mother, the whole bit, here in NYC. I taught in both the South Bronx and the Upper West Side. I lost my last husband, a Navajo with whom I lived on the ancestral land in the Navajo Nation, on Dec. 25, right after 9 - 11. I also had the privilege and delight of studying Navajo language, literature, traditions and culture at Dine College/Navajo Community College. Navajo world view is SO compatible with Bohm. That's one reason I'm so pro-Bohm and dialog. I am also a co-moderator on another list, which is why, like you, I am somewhat familiar with internet protocol and needs. I appreciate your thoughtful, candid response. Now I would like to reciprocate. S: I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know from past experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of us have. K: I absolutely agree. He is every inch a scholar and a gentleman. If requested, with acceptable guidelines in place, I'd be happy to help him co-moderate, or in any way I could. I can't think of a better way to use my time, except to get my face-to-face group started. Zoe also knows and has accepted that I have said I will be the first to call her on any actions I find inappropriate, as everyone else has the right to do. S: But I also know that it isn't going to do much good to pursue this conversation until Don gets to >Calif. and gets back on line. He will be facing 100's of posts on his >return and could miss the important parts of the discussion trying to >weed through the posts. K: That also sounds reasonable to me. S: he (Peter) spams the list - K: that should go in the guidelines and principles.I think, as should any other experiences that have been disruptive in the past. S: Peter has been given every chance - K: here's where we diverge. I'm convinced he's not Peter, but if proven wrong, I'll claim responsibility for my error, and help boot him with proper procedure, if he violates guidelines. S: I have come to learn that, as you have mentioned, principles and guidelines do seem to be necessary K: Yes, and I deliberately chose the terminology hoping it was more compatible with the original aims of Dialog. The terms are also open to suggestion and change. S: I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and no spam. I would also agree with you that the guidelines should be posted K: Thank you. We need to list specifics that we consider trolling. I testified to how it happened, and I know Don F will not deny it. He has a log of all our correspondence on the subject, as I do. S: and anyone that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a warning before being unsubscribed. K: I had a lot of experience and training in documenting children's undesirable behavior. I'd be happy to put that knowledge to use here. S: I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted with people's suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the chance to respond. But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people >think. K: I did not see that happen, and Zoe is very hurt that things were handled this way. If anyone else has proof to the contrary about ZOE - NOT Peter or Kris - both she and the rest of us should receive it, and Zoe given a chance to respond. S: As you will discover, open honest communication is important to me. K: I do see that, and am very comfortable dialoging with you. I hope we can work together with interested others to develop and implement these principles and guidelines. We are definitely forging a new path in Bohm, required by a new era in the technological development of communication. It has been a pleasure dialoging with you. If you are near or ever in NYC, please let me know. I'd love to meet you. Hozhoon, Kathryn Morgan Jett Arizmendi (just so you'll know the identities I currently use!) (picture Kathy smiling happily) >From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles >Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:10 -0700 > >I'm feeling a little confused about who wrote this message. You are a new >member who was not here when I went on vacation so I'm not sure what your >name is since the letter K doesn't say and there seem to be more than one >person on the list today whose name starts with a K. > >When it comes to what is happening currently with Kris, Zoe and Peter, I'm >not really up to speed. However, I am very familiar with the Peter >phenomena of the past. Those of us who have been on the list for any >length of time know that Peter has incarnated multiple times under many >different names. > >As Franis has mentioned, Peter is very intelligent and a very good >journalist and some of his incarnations have been very articulate and some >of them have also been pseudo female. Whether he is in an articulate mode >or not, Peter has a definite style that many of us have come to recognize >fairly easily. Part of that style is when he is feeling that his posts are >being neglected or ignored by the rest of us he spams the list with dozens >of one or two line posts to get the attention he craves and to punish us >for not paying attention. Since this list requires you to receive emails >in order to respond to posts (rather than having a way to post from the >online site like Yahoo) , getting dozens of emails per day that have the >sole purpose of irritating the members is simply not tolerable for most of >us. Most of us simply don't have the time. > >Peter has been given every chance in the world when it comes to talking to >him about what he is doing. Many of us have attempted communicating with >him both on and off list to try to come to a reasonable solution to >including him on the list. Nothing has worked. > >When it comes to ideas of rules or no rules many here will tell you that I >am one who has been in favor of no rules in the past. In the beginning I >felt this was a foundation of dialogue. However, being on many different >internet lists I have come to learn that ,as you have mentioned, principles >and guidelines do seem to be necessary for a group pursuing a serious topic >of discussion such as this one. I have come to believe that any group that >wants to cohere, even as an ongoing stream, needs what I have come to think >of as a flexible structure. Something like the banks of a river that hold >together well enough to keep the stream defined as a stream but are also >flexible enough to broaden their banks and reformat themselves with the >natural fluctuation of movement. Reading Bohm's proposal several times >helped me to realize that Dialogue does have a purpose although it is a >very general, and so flexible purpose. > >I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and no spam. And >I would definitely categorize much of Peter's behavior as both trolling and >spam. He seems determined to either turn this group into a "Peter" >Dialogue instead of a Bohm Dialogue or else destroy the list trying. I >would also agree with you that the guidelines should be posted and anyone >that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a warning before being >unsubscribed. I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted with >people's suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the chance to >respond. But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people think. > As you will discover, open honest communication is important to me. > >I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know from past >experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of us have. >And perhaps the fact that Peter keeps reemerging is a reflection of our >inner struggle. But I also know that it isn't going to do much good to >pursue this conversation until Don gets to Calif. and gets back on line. >He will be facing 100's of posts on his return and could miss the important >parts of the discussion trying to weed through the posts. So I suggest >that we continue the discussion when he returns. > >Susan > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com> >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:24 AM >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > > >>If this is a duplicate for you, please forgive. I posted it last night, >>but it's not in my inbox. k >> >>These comments are made with all due respect. >> >>A great deal of debate has gone into the Zoe-Kris-Peter situation. It is >>no secret that I am trying to work out terms for Zoe - not Kris or Peter - >>to be reinstated. There is no real evidence that Zoe is Kris or Peter. I >>am convinced she is not, because I have enough interaction on which to >>base my opinion. Also, Don F. today posted that he tends to agree with me. >> >>Zoe was unsubscribed without warning, without notice, and "on suspicion" >>of being Peter and/or Kris. List members didn't even know she had been >>bounced. I guessed, emailed her for confirmation, and because she >>expressed her hurt, disappointment and desire to be with us, approached >>Don privately in hopes of mediating the situation. Yes, she refused to try >>to come up with an "acceptable" answer. But could she possibly have >>understandable reasons for refusing such a request, without their >>signifying she doesn't want to be here? What is the meaning of >>"acceptable"? Look at what's happening. She's bounced without warning or >>notification "on suspicion", has no expectation of recourse or appeal, and >>now we are talking about her behind her back, and she can't defend >>herself. That's not what I believe America is about, much less a Bohm >>group. >> >>There is much more here than fighting for a friend. There are principles >>involved which I risk stating that I am passionate about. >> >>It is kind of fascinating to watch this very sophisticated dance that goes >>on here with Peter Krauss and his potential recruits. >>K: I do not see this as a sophisticated dance performance, as a >>"recruiting center" or a competition for loyalties between groups and >>group leaders. Such ideas have more in common with the gang mentality of >>the streets of New York. I don't even want to take it to a historical and >>international level. I don't affiliate with anyone or anything that would >>limit or try to punish me for making my own decisions, or insinuate that >>I'm incapable of it. If that's what Bohm is about, I'm really in the >>wrong place! >>It's not fascinating, it's sad & disturbing, alarming to watch >>intelligent, sane people stuck on ferreting out whether or not Peter is >>Peter, Zoe, Kris, or a maniac, instead of acting on the knowledge that >>koinonia, passion & compassion need more than debate about meaning to have >>meaning. >> >>Exactly why is the group focused on Peter, anyway? What is the >>fascination? >> >>Hard questions to think about: >>For me just responding doesn't mean you become part of the core. I think >>it is something to do with how you are received and whether you are >>responded to and what the response is. >>K: not just in the past, but now as well. Why is it that I got along >>with Kris and Zoe? It certainly wasn't that I am gullible or senile, as >>one member of our list implies. Maybe my age and experience gave me some >>insight and expertise that deserves respect. >>He gradually encourages them to say and do things that he knows will >>cause them to get unsubscribed eventually, such as when he taught Kathryn >>to send huge pictures embedded inside the email. >> >>K: there is a lot I object to here, such as the imbedded threat of >>excommunication, and the implication that I don't have any >>proprioreception, indeed any sense at all. Also note the passion in the >>words. What's that all about? Even though I sent only one picture, I >>will let that go, and head for the group issue. Don F. specified that >>images are allowed, subject to a particular size in a very dignified >>non-threatening way. Yes, some of Kris's images were frighteningly >>inappropriate. But - Let's not say "all Kris's images were objectionable, >>therefore all images are objectionable, especially all Kris's images. And >>Zoe is Chris, therefore Zoe is objectionable." >> >>Usually, a new order arises out of chaos (which seems to have been the >>experience with the earlier incarnation of this list). How can we set up a >>more human face to face interaction? >>We are pioneering, stretching the original conditions of Dialog by putting >>it on the internet. It takes time, effort, patience, and group insight to >>work out the kinks. >>I propose that all of us reread our Bohm, look at the present situation, >>reformulate and restate what we expect of Dialog AND what we can bring to >>it. And post it and discuss it. This should not be just a "Zoe-thing". We >>need to be mindful of this always. I shall begin on my statement tonight, >>and post it as soon as I have it in an acceptable form. I invite you to >>do the same. A consensus could be made, voted on, and posted. I >>volunteer to do the compiling, posting for feedback, and editing. Someone >>else would need to take care of the website. >> >>"...where everything is allowed and there are no rules." >>K: What real good have "rules" and jails done? Do people really need >>rules to keep them from killing each other? Have the rules worked? >>I propose parameters & principles not rules, to be developed and approved >>by the group. Including Zoe. Whether or not the majority agrees with her, >>listen to what she is saying. Some of it might make sense. >>Further, authors of inappropriate postings should be issued a warning as >>to the specific nature of the unacceptable action. Basic courtesy is a >>must. Three warnings by the moderator, and the offender is out. Flame >>wars, i.e. personal heated arguments, are to be taken off the list. >>Appropriate guidelines to be issued before these remedies are put in >>place. Moderator to let list members know when a member is on probation >>for unsubscription. List rules and aims are customarily set out before a >>person joins, but we can also say "back to the drawing board". >> >>oh darn, where is Kris when we need her - s/he's right here. So are Zoe >>and apparently Peter, too. They never left. And as long as we talk >>about them instead of inviting them back, the more of a phantom life their >>presence will become. >> >>People who aren't open tend to stop the flow on some level. Another >>question might be is that the case here as well? Hmmmmm. >> >> >>"Peripherals Unite" - I'm with you. >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from >>Microsoft Office Live >>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>info: >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >>dialogue facilitator: >>facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >>Administrator of the mailing list: >>admin@david-bohm.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >info: >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >dialogue facilitator: >facilitator@david-bohm.net > >Administrator of the mailing list: >admin@david-bohm.net > >_______________________________________________ > > _________________________________________________________________ Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your cash with Live Search! http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&loca le=en-US&source=hmtagline _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061107/7a2032d6/attachment.html From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 08:02:09 2006 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Thu Nov 9 09:05:46 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles Message-ID: <20061108070210.40699.qmail@web52912.mail.yahoo.com> peter kris zoe? ----- Original Message ---- From: Dorothy Stulberg <DStulberg@msw-law.com> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 12:41:49 PM Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles I live in Knoxville TN, my law office is in Oak Ridge, TN. Mediation when there is litigation costs a whale of a lot of money. Most of the facilitators here charge around $350 and hour. Your experience sounds wonderful. Conflict resolution IS a life skill and would be a great thing for marriage or for commitment without that piece of paper. (I don't know what the PKZ profile stands for? Nor the UFT)D -----Original Message----- From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Morgan Jett Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles Yes, Dorothy! We can only try our best. I've used those skills in places where I never thought I'd need them. I was a newbie on the group I co-moderate when war broke out, and I responded with the training. Got asked to do it officially, so I guess you could say I'm using them now. I also had inservice training on union negotiations, but I'm more at home with children - which seems to fit the PKZ profile! Although trying to present the povs of both the anti-pkz faction and the pro-group to each other seems more in the Union category. Of course, the UFT briefed us on how to handle problems in that system, and I'm no stranger to those. Then, there was a rent strike for needed apartment repairs, etc, etc, etc. Conflict resolution is a life skill everybody should be trained in! How did the thing end up costing you $800? For school mediation, the first step is to ask if they want or will accept mediation - build a climate that will make mediatiion desirable, and if they decline, call for reinforcements to keep them from fighting! In Unions, binding arbitration is often invoked. Email me anytime. It's nice talking to you. By the way, where do you live? k >From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles >Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:03:56 -0500 > >Good to hear about you and your past and your present. Are you using >the conflict resolution skills today? I was just trained as a >faciliator. Not sure I have what it takes. Just finished a mediation >which upset me terribly. It cost me $800 to end up with no move on the >other side. >I've really decided that mediation works when a "person" is there, not >a corporation. > >Your email made me think a little about the age of those of us who >message back and forth. Your 71 and my 81 made me wonder if we are >doing anything to introduce the younger folks to the beauty of dialogue. >D > >-----Original Message----- >From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org >[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Morgan Jett >Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:51 PM >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > >Hi Susan - No we haven't met. I don't mind at all giving information >about myself. I'm Kathy, 71 year old retired bilingual Spanish and >music teacher and composer, originally from Florida, with 35 years of >service, 10 years in Puerto Rico, and over 40 years living in NYC. I >was also one of the first teachers to be trained in conflict >resolution. I have >2 sons by a Puerto Rican father, and raised them alone/working mother, >the whole bit, here in NYC. I taught in both the South Bronx and the >Upper West Side. I lost my last husband, a Navajo with whom I lived on >the ancestral land in the Navajo Nation, on Dec. 25, right after 9 - 11. >I also had the privilege and delight of studying Navajo language, >literature, traditions and culture at Dine College/Navajo Community >College. Navajo world view is SO compatible with Bohm. That's one >reason I'm so pro-Bohm and dialog. I am also a co-moderator on another >list, which is why, like you, I am somewhat familiar with internet >protocol and needs. > >I appreciate your thoughtful, candid response. Now I would like to >reciprocate. > >S: I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know from >past experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of >us have. > >K: I absolutely agree. He is every inch a scholar and a gentleman. If >requested, with acceptable guidelines in place, I'd be happy to help >him co-moderate, or in any way I could. I can't think of a better way >to use my time, except to get my face-to-face group started. Zoe also >knows and has accepted that I have said I will be the first to call her >on any actions I find inappropriate, as everyone else has the right to >do. > >S: But I also know that it isn't going to do much good to pursue this >conversation until Don gets to > >Calif. and gets back on line. He will be facing 100's of posts on > >his return and could miss the important parts of the discussion > >trying to weed through the posts. > >K: That also sounds reasonable to me. > >S: he (Peter) spams the list - >K: that should go in the guidelines and principles.I think, as should >any other experiences that have been disruptive in the past. > >S: Peter has been given every chance - >K: here's where we diverge. I'm convinced he's not Peter, but if >proven wrong, I'll claim responsibility for my error, and help boot him >with proper procedure, if he violates guidelines. > >S: I have come to learn that, as you have mentioned, principles and >guidelines do seem to be necessary >K: Yes, and I deliberately chose the terminology hoping it was more >compatible with the original aims of Dialog. The terms are also open >to suggestion and change. > >S: I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and no >spam. I would also agree with you that the guidelines should be posted >K: Thank you. We need to list specifics that we consider trolling. I >testified to how it happened, and I know Don F will not deny it. He >has a log of all our correspondence on the subject, as I do. > >S: and anyone that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a >warning before being unsubscribed. >K: I had a lot of experience and training in documenting children's >undesirable behavior. I'd be happy to put that knowledge to use here. > >S: I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted with people's >suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the chance to respond. >But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people > >think. >K: I did not see that happen, and Zoe is very hurt that things were >handled this way. If anyone else has proof to the contrary about ZOE >- NOT Peter or Kris - both she and the rest of us should receive it, >and Zoe given a chance to respond. > >S: As you will discover, open honest communication is important to me. >K: I do see that, and am very comfortable dialoging with you. I hope >we can work together with interested others to develop and implement >these principles and guidelines. > >We are definitely forging a new path in Bohm, required by a new era in >the technological development of communication. It has been a pleasure >dialoging with you. If you are near or ever in NYC, please let me know. > >I'd love to meet you. > >Hozhoon, Kathryn Morgan Jett Arizmendi (just so you'll know the >identities I currently use!) (picture Kathy smiling happily) > > > > >From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> > >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> > >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > >Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:10 -0700 > > > >I'm feeling a little confused about who wrote this message. You are > >a >new > >member who was not here when I went on vacation so I'm not sure what >your > >name is since the letter K doesn't say and there seem to be more than >one > >person on the list today whose name starts with a K. > > > >When it comes to what is happening currently with Kris, Zoe and > >Peter, >I'm > >not really up to speed. However, I am very familiar with the Peter > >phenomena of the past. Those of us who have been on the list for any > >length of time know that Peter has incarnated multiple times under > >many > > >different names. > > > >As Franis has mentioned, Peter is very intelligent and a very good > >journalist and some of his incarnations have been very articulate and >some > >of them have also been pseudo female. Whether he is in an articulate >mode > >or not, Peter has a definite style that many of us have come to >recognize > >fairly easily. Part of that style is when he is feeling that his > >posts >are > >being neglected or ignored by the rest of us he spams the list with >dozens > >of one or two line posts to get the attention he craves and to punish >us > >for not paying attention. Since this list requires you to receive >emails > >in order to respond to posts (rather than having a way to post from > >the > > >online site like Yahoo) , getting dozens of emails per day that have >the > >sole purpose of irritating the members is simply not tolerable for >most of > >us. Most of us simply don't have the time. > > > >Peter has been given every chance in the world when it comes to > >talking >to > >him about what he is doing. Many of us have attempted communicating >with > >him both on and off list to try to come to a reasonable solution to > >including him on the list. Nothing has worked. > > > >When it comes to ideas of rules or no rules many here will tell you >that I > >am one who has been in favor of no rules in the past. In the > >beginning >I > >felt this was a foundation of dialogue. However, being on many >different > >internet lists I have come to learn that ,as you have mentioned, >principles > >and guidelines do seem to be necessary for a group pursuing a serious >topic > >of discussion such as this one. I have come to believe that any > >group >that > >wants to cohere, even as an ongoing stream, needs what I have come to >think > >of as a flexible structure. Something like the banks of a river that >hold > >together well enough to keep the stream defined as a stream but are >also > >flexible enough to broaden their banks and reformat themselves with > >the > > >natural fluctuation of movement. Reading Bohm's proposal several > >times > > >helped me to realize that Dialogue does have a purpose although it is > >a > > >very general, and so flexible purpose. > > > >I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and no spam. >And > >I would definitely categorize much of Peter's behavior as both > >trolling >and > >spam. He seems determined to either turn this group into a "Peter" > >Dialogue instead of a Bohm Dialogue or else destroy the list trying. > >I > > >would also agree with you that the guidelines should be posted and >anyone > >that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a warning before >being > >unsubscribed. I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted with > >people's suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the chance > >to > > >respond. But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people >think. > > As you will discover, open honest communication is important to me. > > > >I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know from past > >experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of us >have. > >And perhaps the fact that Peter keeps reemerging is a reflection of > >our > > >inner struggle. But I also know that it isn't going to do much good > >to > > >pursue this conversation until Don gets to Calif. and gets back on >line. > >He will be facing 100's of posts on his return and could miss the >important > >parts of the discussion trying to weed through the posts. So I > >suggest > > >that we continue the discussion when he returns. > > > >Susan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Jett" ><griffyn23@hotmail.com> > >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> > >Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:24 AM > >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > > > > > >>If this is a duplicate for you, please forgive. I posted it last >night, > >>but it's not in my inbox. k > >> > >>These comments are made with all due respect. > >> > >>A great deal of debate has gone into the Zoe-Kris-Peter situation. > >>It >is > >>no secret that I am trying to work out terms for Zoe - not Kris or >Peter - > >>to be reinstated. There is no real evidence that Zoe is Kris or >Peter. I > >>am convinced she is not, because I have enough interaction on which > >>to > > >>base my opinion. Also, Don F. today posted that he tends to agree > >>with >me. > >> > >>Zoe was unsubscribed without warning, without notice, and "on >suspicion" > >>of being Peter and/or Kris. List members didn't even know she had > >>been > > >>bounced. I guessed, emailed her for confirmation, and because she > >>expressed her hurt, disappointment and desire to be with us, >approached > >>Don privately in hopes of mediating the situation. Yes, she refused > >>to >try > >>to come up with an "acceptable" answer. But could she possibly have > >>understandable reasons for refusing such a request, without their > >>signifying she doesn't want to be here? What is the meaning of > >>"acceptable"? Look at what's happening. She's bounced without >warning or > >>notification "on suspicion", has no expectation of recourse or > >>appeal, >and > >>now we are talking about her behind her back, and she can't defend > >>herself. That's not what I believe America is about, much less a > >>Bohm > > >>group. > >> > >>There is much more here than fighting for a friend. There are >principles > >>involved which I risk stating that I am passionate about. > >> > >>It is kind of fascinating to watch this very sophisticated dance > >>that >goes > >>on here with Peter Krauss and his potential recruits. > >>K: I do not see this as a sophisticated dance performance, as a > >>"recruiting center" or a competition for loyalties between groups > >>and group leaders. Such ideas have more in common with the gang > >>mentality >of > >>the streets of New York. I don't even want to take it to a > >>historical >and > >>international level. I don't affiliate with anyone or anything that >would > >>limit or try to punish me for making my own decisions, or insinuate >that > >>I'm incapable of it. If that's what Bohm is about, I'm really in > >>the wrong place! > >>It's not fascinating, it's sad & disturbing, alarming to watch > >>intelligent, sane people stuck on ferreting out whether or not Peter >is > >>Peter, Zoe, Kris, or a maniac, instead of acting on the knowledge > >>that > > >>koinonia, passion & compassion need more than debate about meaning > >>to >have > >>meaning. > >> > >>Exactly why is the group focused on Peter, anyway? What is the > >>fascination? > >> > >>Hard questions to think about: > >>For me just responding doesn't mean you become part of the core. I >think > >>it is something to do with how you are received and whether you are > >>responded to and what the response is. > >>K: not just in the past, but now as well. Why is it that I got > >>along > > >>with Kris and Zoe? It certainly wasn't that I am gullible or > >>senile, >as > >>one member of our list implies. Maybe my age and experience gave me >some > >>insight and expertise that deserves respect. > >>He gradually encourages them to say and do things that he knows will > >>cause them to get unsubscribed eventually, such as when he taught >Kathryn > >>to send huge pictures embedded inside the email. > >> > >>K: there is a lot I object to here, such as the imbedded threat of > >>excommunication, and the implication that I don't have any > >>proprioreception, indeed any sense at all. Also note the passion in >the > >>words. What's that all about? Even though I sent only one picture, > >>I > > >>will let that go, and head for the group issue. Don F. specified > >>that images are allowed, subject to a particular size in a very > >>dignified non-threatening way. Yes, some of Kris's images were > >>frighteningly inappropriate. But - Let's not say "all Kris's images > >>were >objectionable, > >>therefore all images are objectionable, especially all Kris's images. >And > >>Zoe is Chris, therefore Zoe is objectionable." > >> > >>Usually, a new order arises out of chaos (which seems to have been >the > >>experience with the earlier incarnation of this list). How can we > >>set >up a > >>more human face to face interaction? > >>We are pioneering, stretching the original conditions of Dialog by >putting > >>it on the internet. It takes time, effort, patience, and group >insight to > >>work out the kinks. > >>I propose that all of us reread our Bohm, look at the present >situation, > >>reformulate and restate what we expect of Dialog AND what we can > >>bring >to > >>it. And post it and discuss it. This should not be just a >"Zoe-thing". We > >>need to be mindful of this always. I shall begin on my statement >tonight, > >>and post it as soon as I have it in an acceptable form. I invite > >>you >to > >>do the same. A consensus could be made, voted on, and posted. I > >>volunteer to do the compiling, posting for feedback, and editing. >Someone > >>else would need to take care of the website. > >> > >>"...where everything is allowed and there are no rules." > >>K: What real good have "rules" and jails done? Do people really > >>need > > >>rules to keep them from killing each other? Have the rules worked? > >>I propose parameters & principles not rules, to be developed and >approved > >>by the group. Including Zoe. Whether or not the majority agrees with >her, > >>listen to what she is saying. Some of it might make sense. > >>Further, authors of inappropriate postings should be issued a > >>warning >as > >>to the specific nature of the unacceptable action. Basic courtesy is > >>a > > >>must. Three warnings by the moderator, and the offender is out. >Flame > >>wars, i.e. personal heated arguments, are to be taken off the list. > >>Appropriate guidelines to be issued before these remedies are put in > >>place. Moderator to let list members know when a member is on >probation > >>for unsubscription. List rules and aims are customarily set out >before a > >>person joins, but we can also say "back to the drawing board". > >> > >>oh darn, where is Kris when we need her - s/he's right here. So are >Zoe > >>and apparently Peter, too. They never left. And as long as we talk > >>about them instead of inviting them back, the more of a phantom life >their > >>presence will become. > >> > >>People who aren't open tend to stop the flow on some level. Another > >>question might be is that the case here as well? Hmmmmm. > >> > >> > >>"Peripherals Unite" - I'm with you. > >> > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from > >>Microsoft Office Live > >>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>info: > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >> > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >> > >>dialogue facilitator: > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net > >> > >>Administrator of the mailing list: > >>admin@david-bohm.net > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >info: > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > > >dialogue facilitator: > >facilitator@david-bohm.net > > > >Administrator of the mailing list: > >admin@david-bohm.net > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your cash >with Live Search! >http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&loc >a >le=en-US&source=hmtagline > >_______________________________________________ >info: >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >dialogue facilitator: >facilitator@david-bohm.net > >Administrator of the mailing list: >admin@david-bohm.net > >_______________________________________________ > > >_______________________________________________ >info: >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >dialogue facilitator: >facilitator@david-bohm.net > >Administrator of the mailing list: >admin@david-bohm.net > >_______________________________________________ > > _________________________________________________________________ Use your PC to make calls at very low rates https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061107/4af18b43/attachment.html From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 08:10:24 2006 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Thu Nov 9 09:13:59 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way Message-ID: <20061108071024.16112.qmail@web52910.mail.yahoo.com> this is a marvelous post and line of inquiry joachim! i too wonder if we can consider what deeper meaning if any might exist in the midst of our Peter drama. it has amazed me how much energy is devoted to it/"him," and i wonder what aspects of our psyche that are needing to be brought to light...maybe it is just the human tendency to make meanings, but i wonder if there might be some individual and group shadow material (blocked energy) needing to emerge here. i have thought about leaving the list several times, but something keeps me here. at first though it is the amazing people, but i wonder if it is that simple? what is my/our lesson from this? the other thing i am excited about is you willingness to explore the false dichotomies of either or. how about both and. why cant compassion include challenging? lynne i think brought up ken wilber and idiot compassion ealiuer and i think pema chodron has talked about that. http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/qa5.php so we are talking about an ever evolving balance. i don't really have a point, i am tired abut wanted to jump in and encourage this type of questioning and sharing! "young" and "old" unite! warmly, kari ----- Original Message ---- From: Joachim Faust <joachimfaust@earthlink.net> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 1:55:01 PM Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way Inspired by by Gill's, Kari's, Lynne's, Pat's and Franis' recent posts: In Gill's post, there is the dichotomy between being able to "challenge" and being "compassionate/aware." It is hard to be both at the same time, and to find the balanced "middle way" between the two ( I hope I am not totally misunderstanding you, Gill). Pat has talked about words whose meaning turns out to be the opposite after deeper exploration (the passion/patience/compassion- example). And as far as Peter Krauss and the trolls go, there is the same issue: on the one hand, you want to protect the dialogue from destructive forces, but on the other hand, you don't want to overprotect and cut off potential sources of creative renewal (from both the outside and the periphery). Again, the challenge is to find a sustainable balance. I would say, we are not doing too well on this list as far as this balance is concerned. Case in point: it is fascinating to me how much power Peter Krauss actually has on this list, even now, when at least apparently, all his incarnations are banned. Most recently, in a truly Hamletian fashion, we even managed to channel the ghost of his father, the ostensible SS officer :) I can't help it, but I think there is something important "Peter" and "Kirsten" have to tell us, but we are not listening. Would it be possible to think about what this could be, without (or before) letting them back in? My intuition is that once we understand and consider their message on a deep level, they will go away. Or they will simply do "their act" in an orderly manner, just like Gary and Pine in Franis' marvelous story about her hometown Bolinas. On a more abstract level, could these problems be caused by a propensity toward dualistic (or dichotomous) thinking/feeling, that is, an "either/or-thinking": either "in" or "out," either "core," or "periphery," either "active" or "passive," etc., without being open to look for the liberating middle way. Anyway, I would like to reiterate Kari's observation/question: "People who aren't open tend to stop the flow on some level. Is that the case here?" Thanks, Joachim On 08.11.2006, at 05:00, bohm_dialogue-request@david-bohm.org wrote: > I do so appreciate lines of inquiry like this. Flexible, open, and > obviously sincere. The question for me is what is the intention of > this listserv? Everyone is asked to agree to certain terms. If we > want to stay true to the intention (inquiry in the spirit of David > Bohm or something I believe it is) of the list, then we should have > no problem ousting those who aren't on board with that. It is > nothing personal; it's just terms of use. If we believe in creating > a container and a core possibly, then maybe we should work on that > before challenging ourselves by letting the more chaotic ones in. > Anyone who has experienced in person dialogue knows the value of > having people present and participating who are sensitive, > supportive, and open to questioning (their own, but is there any > difference really) assumptions and opinions. People who aren't open > tend to stop the flow on some level. Another question might be is > that the case here as well? > > Great post Lynne! > > kari Hi Rodger, Back on line after a busy weekend! Yes I can see what you mean, what you said here kind of warmed me or enheartened me! I guess I have found some of the language orientated discussions a bit cold, hard, mechanical ... And I am drawn more to what I call heart-balanced being. Its about caring and being compassionate and also aware and being willing to challenge. And finding a response and action that is not embedded within the same cultural assumptions. I find so often the response or action taken to a situation maintains the same culture. Anyway its something to aim for ... Um ... I can see core and periphery within an individual I think as you suggest. For me just responding doesn?t mean you become part of the core I think it is something to do with how you are received and whether you are responded to and what the response is. Gill on 4/11/06 14:29, Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com at Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com wrote: Rodger __hi Gill, I firmly believe that if you see-sense something missing in a group process it is because no one else sees it as clearly as you do -- therefore you are the missing link._R . Joachim Faust joachimfaust@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061107/8fa9fb49/attachment.html From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 08:15:02 2006 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Thu Nov 9 09:18:39 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate Message-ID: <20061108071503.6920.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> hey mine is way male too! cool/weird! kari ----- Original Message ---- From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 1:04:02 PM Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate Yes, most of my writing is scored as male - possibly because male style is the lexicon of good writing in our culture, I don't know. I have adopted a very "male" style of speaking also, because as a kid I was always the only girl in a group of guys - which gets me into trouble with the gals. At this point, it's gotten me into trouble with one of the NA indian converts in my Dialogue group, because he thinks I should "know my feminine place." But the other guys seem to enjoy it, because they don't have to compensate to speak "womanese" around me. Franis On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:55:10 -0500 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes: > Very interesting! However, both paragraphs, below, were scored as > male. > > Thanks, > Don > > > > > Don L writes: I'm understanding the personal identity > defensiveness to be > > mechanical and reflexive .. reflexively defending the endorphin > pleasure > > of talking about the imaginary self. This seems to be the most > > economical way to explain both (1) the excessive personal pronoun > use and > > (2) the reflexive defense of the system when it is mentioned. > > > > You might be interested in how this "gender genie" works. It > analyzes > > writing by the use of certain words that are most common in the > way men > > and women talk. > > http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html > > > > > > Franis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > info: > > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > > > dialogue facilitator: > > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > > > Administrator of the mailing list: > > admin@david-bohm.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061107/df0a4fd1/attachment.html From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 8 09:02:54 2006 From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel) Date: Thu Nov 9 10:18:35 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way Message-ID: <20061108.000943.1128.1.franis_franis@juno.com> Any oneofus can beact asif youme are whatITis. NOW i mage in, me taking twentythirtyfifty different posts to say this? If anypodies does any enuff, gonna hit on somegold sometime. IMHO, txt msging chil' - is just hard to read - and English is my native language. hey - we can do anything we want now that Don's away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We know why people started txt messaging, because it's trouble to spell on the keyboard of a phone. People use this style when they're using a keyboard because they wanna be cool, pretend they're on their phone, maybe they wanna be artistic, or make up words because what they're talking about is important and so of course they need new words because their ideas are fresh and new... Maybe because they don't read, they think nobody else has ever thought of these "new" ideas. Every generation invents their own creole, but hey, I thought in Dialogue the point was to include rather than exclude - and the news is that creole excludes the come-latelys. Dialogue creole - that's a good buzzword for the tendency people have to assign new meaning to words or to make words up. But if we use it, will people understand what we mean without explaining it? Dialoguers can turn anything into something valuable. If someone communicates or only has a limited capacity to offer themselves because that's the way they really are and they are not capable of the norm - fine, they're welcome - tell your story about yourself as best you can; tell us where these core values come from that made you who you are.That way you're being responsible and accessible to others here to engage them to dialogue with you. Many who first come to Dialogue find it unusual to have a bunch of people actually listening to them. What about someone who has the ability to communicate better than any of us and they have more time to spend doing it? What if someone like this deliberately makes it difficult for others by adopting multiple affectations of how they want to write in text message style, for instance. Even when asked to stop, they continue to textmessg, - why would they want to continue to irritate and use an affectation by choice? If they tell us why or do otherwise, then we have a dialogue. Once the warning is made, if their response is to defend and attack, we may have a troll. Attacking and defending tends to preclude openness in all but the most practiced at mediating. Even then, mediating is something people should get paid for. What I'm describing here is beside the onslaught of all the other classic troll techniques, such as flooding the list with mysterious one-liners, delivering personal insults and accusations; posting as someone else on the list, misquoting people, etc. etc. > I can't help it, but I think there is something important "Peter" > and "Kirsten" have to tell us, but we are not listening. > Would it be possible to think about what this could be, without (or > before) letting them back in? > My intuition is that once we understand and consider their message on > a deep level, they will go away. Or they will simply > do "their act" in an orderly manner... Perhaps the point was to teach us to learn what is an internet troll, to name the various debate tactics and other manipulative strategies as they are used? Uniquely twisted letters/words with their own unique meanings demand quite a bit of energy to decipher and get something out of them. We like to write about that stuff here, ie: the word passion. In the distant past, here we invented a whole bunch of emoticons. Ones designed just for dialogue - because we found ourselves using the same qualifyers. They were cute & creative and some of us used them for awhile, but nobody here remembered them for very long. It turns out that when you get a bunch of people making up words and then using a string of these made up words in a sentence, nobody has a clue what anyone else is saying - people must constantly ask what was meant - so why not just say what you mean in the first place? On something important the troll has to offer - you may want to be hearing it, but we've put up with it for a looong, looong time. Importance is assigned from experience - perhaps you'd like to go get that experience? After being kept busy turning this card over and over, are we finally getting the joke? It's actually a fun joke for awhile. If you imagine a troll will become "orderly "- dream on - but a person who is genuinely a difficult person to understand will become easier to appreciate and understand in the course of dialogue. That's what I was describing in my small town. A troll will become more difficult. People who choose to fight just put up too much static - it takes two to communicate, and they demand the other person do all the work. Been there, done that, downloaded the CD and yanked the tunes I didn't wanna hear by now. But we haven't talked about this in such depth since Dwight was on the list. You're very articulate, Joachim. It's you that is using your own power to talk about this that I'm responding to - not the power of a former troll. - Franis On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:55:01 -0600 Joachim Faust <joachimfaust@earthlink.net> writes: > Inspired by by Gill's, Kari's, Lynne's, Pat's and Franis' recent > posts: In Gill's post, there is the dichotomy between being able > to "challenge" and being "compassionate/aware." It is hard to be > both at the same time, and to find the > balanced "middle way" between the two ( I hope I am not totally > misunderstanding you, Gill). Pat has talked about > words whose meaning turns out to be the opposite after deeper > exploration (the passion/patience/compassion- > example). And as far as Peter Krauss and the trolls go, there is the > > same issue: on the one hand, you want to > protect the dialogue from destructive forces, but on the other > hand, > you don't want to overprotect and cut off potential > sources of creative renewal (from both the outside and the > periphery). Again, the challenge is to find a sustainable > balance. > > I would say, we are not doing too well on this list as far as this > balance is concerned. Case in point: it is fascinating to me > how much power Peter Krauss actually has on this list, even now, > when > at least > apparently, all his incarnations are banned. Most recently, in a > truly Hamletian fashion, we even managed to channel the ghost of > his father, > the ostensible SS officer :) > > I can't help it, but I think there is something important "Peter" > and "Kirsten" have to tell us, but we are not listening. > Would it be possible to think about what this could be, without (or > > before) letting them back in? > My intuition is that once we understand and consider their message > on > a deep level, they will go away. Or they will simply > do "their act" in an orderly manner, just like Gary and Pine in > Franis' marvelous story about her hometown Bolinas. > > On a more abstract level, could these problems be caused by a > propensity toward dualistic (or dichotomous) thinking/feeling, > that is, an "either/or-thinking": either "in" or "out," either > "core," or "periphery," either "active" or "passive," etc., without > being open to look for the liberating middle way. > > Anyway, I would like to reiterate Kari's observation/question: > "People who aren't open tend to stop the flow on some level. Is that > the case here?" > > Thanks, > > Joachim > > > > On 08.11.2006, at 05:00, bohm_dialogue-request@david-bohm.org wrote: > > > I do so appreciate lines of inquiry like this. Flexible, open, and > > > obviously sincere. The question for me is what is the intention of > > > this listserv? Everyone is asked to agree to certain terms. If we > > > want to stay true to the intention (inquiry in the spirit of David > > > Bohm or something I believe it is) of the list, then we should > have > > no problem ousting those who aren't on board with that. It is > > nothing personal; it's just terms of use. If we believe in > creating > > a container and a core possibly, then maybe we should work on that > > > before challenging ourselves by letting the more chaotic ones in. > > > Anyone who has experienced in person dialogue knows the value of > > having people present and participating who are sensitive, > > supportive, and open to questioning (their own, but is there any > > difference really) assumptions and opinions. People who aren't > open > > tend to stop the flow on some level. Another question might be is > > > that the case here as well? > > > > Great post Lynne! > > > > kari > > Hi Rodger, > > Back on line after a busy weekend! > > Yes I can see what you mean, what you said here kind of warmed me or > > enheartened me! I guess I have found some of the language orientated > > discussions a bit cold, hard, mechanical ... And I am drawn more to > > what I call heart-balanced being. Its about caring and being > compassionate and also aware and being willing to challenge. And > finding a response and action that is not embedded within the same > cultural assumptions. I find so often the response or action taken > to > a situation maintains the same culture. > > Anyway its something to aim for ... > > Um ... I can see core and periphery within an individual I think as > > you suggest. > > For me just responding doesn’t mean you become part of the core I > think it is something to do with how you are received and whether > you > are responded to and what the response is. > > Gill > > > on 4/11/06 14:29, Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com at > Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com wrote: > > Rodger __hi Gill, I firmly believe that if you see-sense something > missing in a group process it is because no one else sees it as > clearly as you do -- therefore you are the missing link._R > . > > Joachim Faust > joachimfaust@earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 8 09:09:43 2006 From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel) Date: Thu Nov 9 10:18:36 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Introductions and language Message-ID: <20061108.000943.1128.2.franis_franis@juno.com> Yeah - I've been around at the stage of a couple of kids where they are gesturing toward things to ask about the language connected to the experiences. Of course I would say the verbs, rather than the nouns that every other adult would say. Good thing I never raised a kid during that time of its life. I would have done too many experiments on the poor thing. ;o) Franis I've posted quite a bit of my ideas about the differences in NA language and English in the past. The biggest difference having to do with verbs. I have come to understand that in the Western world we have come to think of processes as "things"/objects and this has created a lot of problems in our thought process. Where as the NA's have what I think of as a more verby language that is process oriented. In fact, many of the NA languages as well as some Eastern languages don't even have nouns. I have found a huge difference in learning to think in verby terms (process oriented rather than object oriented) in my own thought processes. On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 13:29:15 -0700 "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> writes: > Hi Kathy. Thanks for introducing yourself. I'll reciprocate with a > little > information on me. I'm single, no children, just turned 55 and live > in > Tucson, AZ. I currently work at home doing CAD drawings (computer > aided > drafting) for the construction industry and working with graphics. > I've > been a member of this group for 3 or 4 years now (can't remember > exactly > when I joined). > > Back at the end of June I was in a car accident and ended up with a > broken > right arm. They tell me that because it was broken close to the > shoulder it > caused a lot of problems that aren't associated with most breaks. > Because > of this the healing process has been long and taken a lot of my > energy. I > would say I'm about 70% back to normal now. I still have a few > problems > that will take a couple more months (so they say) for me to clear > up. > > I'm very interested in your experience with the Navajo. I'm very > interested > in language and particularly Native American Language. I grew up in > > Oklahoma among a large population of Native Americans and have had a > number > of Native American friends. I've posted quite a bit of my ideas > about the > differences in NA language and English in the past. The biggest > difference > having to do with verbs. I have come to understand that in the > Western > world we have come to think of processes as "things"/objects and > this has > created a lot of problems in our thought process. Where as the NA's > have > what I think of as a more verby language that is process oriented. > In fact, > many of the NA languages as well as some Eastern languages don't > even have > nouns. I have found a huge difference in learning to think in verby > terms > (process oriented rather than object oriented) in my own thought > processes. > > When it comes to forging a new path in Dialogue, I think the group > may be > only at the beginning of realizing and dealing with this. When I > first > joined the list it was not considered an actual dialogue because it > was not > face to face, and many people didn't believe that it was possible to > have an > actual dialogue in this format. It was considered to be simply a > list > started with the intentions of exploring Bohm's ideas done "in the > spirit" > of dialogue. And you may have noticed that's still it's definition. > But > recently people have begun to realize more and more that it might be > > possible to have a "true" dialogue in this format. Personally I > think it's > not only possible but that we do it on this list all the time. For > myself, > I'm not nearly as interested in an intellectual discussion of Bohms > ideas as > I am in actually doing Dialogue here in this format of the internet. > Like > you, I feel that we are pioneers in this area. > > Susan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com> > To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > > > > Hi Susan - No we haven't met. I don't mind at all giving > information > > about myself. I'm Kathy, 71 year old retired bilingual Spanish and > music > > teacher and composer, originally from Florida, with 35 years of > service, > > 10 years in Puerto Rico, and over 40 years living in NYC. I was > also one > > of the first teachers to be trained in conflict resolution. I > have 2 sons > > by a Puerto Rican father, and raised them alone/working mother, > the whole > > bit, here in NYC. I taught in both the South Bronx and the Upper > West > > Side. I lost my last husband, a Navajo with whom I lived on the > ancestral > > land in the Navajo Nation, on Dec. 25, right after 9 - 11. I also > had the > > privilege and delight of studying Navajo language, literature, > traditions > > and culture at Dine College/Navajo Community College. Navajo > world view > > is SO compatible with Bohm. That's one reason I'm so pro-Bohm and > dialog. > > I am also a co-moderator on another list, which is why, like you, > I am > > somewhat familiar with internet protocol and needs. > > > > I appreciate your thoughtful, candid response. Now I would like > to > > reciprocate. > > > > S: I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know > from past > > experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of > us > > have. > > > > K: I absolutely agree. He is every inch a scholar and a > gentleman. If > > requested, with acceptable guidelines in place, I'd be happy to > help him > > co-moderate, or in any way I could. I can't think of a better way > to use > > my time, except to get my face-to-face group started. Zoe also > knows and > > has accepted that I have said I will be the first to call her on > any > > actions I find inappropriate, as everyone else has the right to > do. > > > > S: But I also know that it isn't going to do much good to pursue > this > > conversation until Don gets to > >>Calif. and gets back on line. He will be facing 100's of posts on > his > >>return and could miss the important parts of the discussion trying > to weed > >>through the posts. > > > > K: That also sounds reasonable to me. > > > > S: he (Peter) spams the list - > > K: that should go in the guidelines and principles.I think, as > should any > > other experiences that have been disruptive in the past. > > > > S: Peter has been given every chance - > > K: here's where we diverge. I'm convinced he's not Peter, but if > proven > > wrong, I'll claim responsibility for my error, and help boot him > with > > proper procedure, if he violates guidelines. > > > > S: I have come to learn that, as you have mentioned, principles > and > > guidelines do seem to be necessary > > K: Yes, and I deliberately chose the terminology hoping it was > more > > compatible with the original aims of Dialog. The terms are also > open to > > suggestion and change. > > > > S: I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and > no spam. > > I would also agree with you that the guidelines should be posted > > K: Thank you. We need to list specifics that we consider > trolling. I > > testified to how it happened, and I know Don F will not deny it. > He has a > > log of all our correspondence on the subject, as I do. > > > > S: and anyone that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a > warning > > before being unsubscribed. > > K: I had a lot of experience and training in documenting > children's > > undesirable behavior. I'd be happy to put that knowledge to use > here. > > > > S: I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted with > people's > > suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the chance to > respond. > > But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people > >>think. > > K: I did not see that happen, and Zoe is very hurt that things > were > > handled this way. If anyone else has proof to the contrary about > ZOE - > > NOT Peter or Kris - both she and the rest of us should receive it, > and Zoe > > given a chance to respond. > > > > S: As you will discover, open honest communication is important to > me. > > K: I do see that, and am very comfortable dialoging with you. I > hope we > > can work together with interested others to develop and implement > these > > principles and guidelines. > > > > We are definitely forging a new path in Bohm, required by a new > era in the > > technological development of communication. It has been a > pleasure > > dialoging with you. If you are near or ever in NYC, please let me > know. > > I'd love to meet you. > > > > Hozhoon, Kathryn Morgan Jett Arizmendi (just so you'll know the > identities > > I currently use!) > > (picture Kathy smiling happily) > > > > > > > >>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> > >>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > >>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> > >>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > >>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:10 -0700 > >> > >>I'm feeling a little confused about who wrote this message. You > are a new > >>member who was not here when I went on vacation so I'm not sure > what your > >>name is since the letter K doesn't say and there seem to be more > than one > >>person on the list today whose name starts with a K. > >> > >>When it comes to what is happening currently with Kris, Zoe and > Peter, > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 8 09:13:57 2006 From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel) Date: Thu Nov 9 10:22:34 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles Message-ID: <20061108.001358.1128.3.franis_franis@juno.com> We once took a poll in our in-person dialogue group and found that only two people in a group of thirty had "regular" jobs. Dialogue seems to be a "leisure" activity. I guess to be able to do this you need some time on your hands as in being retired; or to be able to control your own time as in working for yourself. Franis On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:01:05 -0800 (PST) Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com> writes: > i didnt realize you two were 71 and 81. you sounded wise but > energetic, like you could have been 40 or so. im 24. > i have been enjoying the exchanges in the last day or so. thanks > william, susan, dorothy, and kathryn. > > kari > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dorothy Stulberg <DStulberg@msw-law.com> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 12:03:56 PM > Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > > > Good to hear about you and your past and your present. Are you using > the conflict resolution skills today? I was just trained as a > faciliator. Not sure I have what it takes. Just finished a > mediation > which upset me terribly. It cost me $800 to end up with no move on > the > other side. > I've really decided that mediation works when a "person" is there, > not a > corporation. > > Your email made me think a little about the age of those of us who > message back and forth. Your 71 and my 81 made me wonder if we are > doing anything to introduce the younger folks to the beauty of > dialogue. > D > > -----Original Message----- > From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org > [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Morgan > Jett > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:51 PM > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > > Hi Susan - No we haven't met. I don't mind at all giving > information > about myself. I'm Kathy, 71 year old retired bilingual Spanish and > music > teacher and composer, originally from Florida, with 35 years of > service, > 10 years in Puerto Rico, and over 40 years living in NYC. I was also > one of the first teachers to be trained in conflict resolution. I > have > 2 sons by a Puerto Rican father, and raised them alone/working > mother, > the whole bit, here in NYC. I taught in both the South Bronx and the > Upper West Side. I lost my last husband, a Navajo with whom I lived > on > the ancestral land in the Navajo Nation, on Dec. 25, right after 9 - > 11. > I also had the privilege and delight of studying Navajo language, > literature, traditions and culture at Dine College/Navajo Community > College. Navajo world view is SO compatible with Bohm. That's one > reason I'm so pro-Bohm and dialog. I am also a co-moderator on > another > list, which is why, like you, I am somewhat familiar with internet > protocol and needs. > > I appreciate your thoughtful, candid response. Now I would like to > reciprocate. > > S: I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know from > past > experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of us > have. > > K: I absolutely agree. He is every inch a scholar and a gentleman. > If > requested, with acceptable guidelines in place, I'd be happy to help > him > co-moderate, or in any way I could. I can't think of a better way to > use my time, except to get my face-to-face group started. Zoe also > knows and has accepted that I have said I will be the first to call > her > on any actions I find inappropriate, as everyone else has the right > to > do. > > S: But I also know that it isn't going to do much good to pursue > this > conversation until Don gets to > >Calif. and gets back on line. He will be facing 100's of posts on > his > >return and could miss the important parts of the discussion trying > to > >weed through the posts. > > K: That also sounds reasonable to me. > > S: he (Peter) spams the list - > K: that should go in the guidelines and principles.I think, as should > any other experiences that have been disruptive in the past. > > S: Peter has been given every chance - > K: here's where we diverge. I'm convinced he's not Peter, but if > proven > wrong, I'll claim responsibility for my error, and help boot him with > proper procedure, if he violates guidelines. > > S: I have come to learn that, as you have mentioned, principles and > guidelines do seem to be necessary > K: Yes, and I deliberately chose the terminology hoping it was more > compatible with the original aims of Dialog. The terms are also > open to > suggestion and change. > > S: I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and no > spam. I would also agree with you that the guidelines should be > posted > K: Thank you. We need to list specifics that we consider trolling. > I > testified to how it happened, and I know Don F will not deny it. He > has > a log of all our correspondence on the subject, as I do. > > S: and anyone that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a > warning before being unsubscribed. > K: I had a lot of experience and training in documenting children's > undesirable behavior. I'd be happy to put that knowledge to use > here. > > S: I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted with people's > suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the chance to > respond. > But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people > >think. > K: I did not see that happen, and Zoe is very hurt that things were > handled this way. If anyone else has proof to the contrary about > ZOE - > NOT Peter or Kris - both she and the rest of us should receive it, > and > Zoe given a chance to respond. > > S: As you will discover, open honest communication is important to > me. > K: I do see that, and am very comfortable dialoging with you. I > hope > we can work together with interested others to develop and implement > these principles and guidelines. > > We are definitely forging a new path in Bohm, required by a new era > in > the technological development of communication. It has been a > pleasure > dialoging with you. If you are near or ever in NYC, please let me > know. > > I'd love to meet you. > > Hozhoon, Kathryn Morgan Jett Arizmendi (just so you'll know the > identities I currently use!) (picture Kathy smiling happily) > > > > >From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> > >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> > >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > >Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:10 -0700 > > > >I'm feeling a little confused about who wrote this message. You > are a > new > >member who was not here when I went on vacation so I'm not sure what > your > >name is since the letter K doesn't say and there seem to be more > than > one > >person on the list today whose name starts with a K. > > > >When it comes to what is happening currently with Kris, Zoe and > Peter, > I'm > >not really up to speed. However, I am very familiar with the Peter > >phenomena of the past. Those of us who have been on the list for > any > >length of time know that Peter has incarnated multiple times under > many > > >different names. > > > >As Franis has mentioned, Peter is very intelligent and a very good > >journalist and some of his incarnations have been very articulate > and > some > >of them have also been pseudo female. Whether he is in an > articulate > mode > >or not, Peter has a definite style that many of us have come to > recognize > >fairly easily. Part of that style is when he is feeling that his > posts > are > >being neglected or ignored by the rest of us he spams the list with > dozens > >of one or two line posts to get the attention he craves and to > punish > us > >for not paying attention. Since this list requires you to receive > emails > >in order to respond to posts (rather than having a way to post from > the > > >online site like Yahoo) , getting dozens of emails per day that have > the > >sole purpose of irritating the members is simply not tolerable for > most of > >us. Most of us simply don't have the time. > > > >Peter has been given every chance in the world when it comes to > talking > to > >him about what he is doing. Many of us have attempted communicating > with > >him both on and off list to try to come to a reasonable solution to > >including him on the list. Nothing has worked. > > > >When it comes to ideas of rules or no rules many here will tell you > that I > >am one who has been in favor of no rules in the past. In the > beginning > I > >felt this was a foundation of dialogue. However, being on many > different > >internet lists I have come to learn that ,as you have mentioned, > principles > >and guidelines do seem to be necessary for a group pursuing a > serious > topic > >of discussion such as this one. I have come to believe that any > group > that > >wants to cohere, even as an ongoing stream, needs what I have come > to > think > >of as a flexible structure. Something like the banks of a river > that > hold > >together well enough to keep the stream defined as a stream but are > also > >flexible enough to broaden their banks and reformat themselves with > the > > >natural fluctuation of movement. Reading Bohm's proposal several > times > > >helped me to realize that Dialogue does have a purpose although it > is a > > >very general, and so flexible purpose. > > > >I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and no > spam. > And > >I would definitely categorize much of Peter's behavior as both > trolling > and > >spam. He seems determined to either turn this group into a "Peter" > >Dialogue instead of a Bohm Dialogue or else destroy the list > trying. I > > >would also agree with you that the guidelines should be posted and > anyone > >that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a warning before > being > >unsubscribed. I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted > with > >people's suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the > chance to > > >respond. But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people > think. > > As you will discover, open honest communication is important to > me. > > > >I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know from > past > >experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of > us > have. > >And perhaps the fact that Peter keeps reemerging is a reflection of > our > > >inner struggle. But I also know that it isn't going to do much > good to > > >pursue this conversation until Don gets to Calif. and gets back on > line. > >He will be facing 100's of posts on his return and could miss the > important > >parts of the discussion trying to weed through the posts. So I > suggest > > >that we continue the discussion when he returns. > > > >Susan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Jett" > <griffyn23@hotmail.com> > >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> > >Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:24 AM > >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > > > > > >>If this is a duplicate for you, please forgive. I posted it last > night, > >>but it's not in my inbox. k > >> > >>These comments are made with all due respect. > >> > >>A great deal of debate has gone into the Zoe-Kris-Peter situation. > It > is > >>no secret that I am trying to work out terms for Zoe - not Kris or > Peter - > >>to be reinstated. There is no real evidence that Zoe is Kris or > Peter. I > >>am convinced she is not, because I have enough interaction on > which to > > >>base my opinion. Also, Don F. today posted that he tends to agree > with > me. > >> > >>Zoe was unsubscribed without warning, without notice, and "on > suspicion" > >>of being Peter and/or Kris. List members didn't even know she had > been > > >>bounced. I guessed, emailed her for confirmation, and because she > >>expressed her hurt, disappointment and desire to be with us, > approached > >>Don privately in hopes of mediating the situation. Yes, she > refused to > try > >>to come up with an "acceptable" answer. But could she possibly > have > >>understandable reasons for refusing such a request, without their > >>signifying she doesn't want to be here? What is the meaning of > >>"acceptable"? Look at what's happening. She's bounced without > warning or > >>notification "on suspicion", has no expectation of recourse or > appeal, > and > >>now we are talking about her behind her back, and she can't defend > >>herself. That's not what I believe America is about, much less a > Bohm > > >>group. > >> > >>There is much more here than fighting for a friend. There are > principles > >>involved which I risk stating that I am passionate about. > >> > >>It is kind of fascinating to watch this very sophisticated dance > that > goes > >>on here with Peter Krauss and his potential recruits. > >>K: I do not see this as a sophisticated dance performance, as a > >>"recruiting center" or a competition for loyalties between groups > and > >>group leaders. Such ideas have more in common with the gang > mentality > of > >>the streets of New York. I don't even want to take it to a > historical > and > >>international level. I don't affiliate with anyone or anything that > would > >>limit or try to punish me for making my own decisions, or insinuate > that > >>I'm incapable of it. If that's what Bohm is about, I'm really in > the > >>wrong place! > >>It's not fascinating, it's sad & disturbing, alarming to watch > >>intelligent, sane people stuck on ferreting out whether or not > Peter > is > >>Peter, Zoe, Kris, or a maniac, instead of acting on the knowledge > that > > >>koinonia, passion & compassion need more than debate about meaning > to > have > >>meaning. > >> > >>Exactly why is the group focused on Peter, anyway? What is the > >>fascination? > >> > >>Hard questions to think about: > >>For me just responding doesn't mean you become part of the core. I > think > >>it is something to do with how you are received and whether you > are > >>responded to and what the response is. > >>K: not just in the past, but now as well. Why is it that I got > along > > >>with Kris and Zoe? It certainly wasn't that I am gullible or > senile, > as > >>one member of our list implies. Maybe my age and experience gave > me > some > >>insight and expertise that deserves respect. > >>He gradually encourages them to say and do things that he knows > will > >>cause them to get unsubscribed eventually, such as when he taught > Kathryn > >>to send huge pictures embedded inside the email. > >> > >>K: there is a lot I object to here, such as the imbedded threat > of > >>excommunication, and the implication that I don't have any > >>proprioreception, indeed any sense at all. Also note the passion > in > the > >>words. What's that all about? Even though I sent only one > picture, I > > >>will let that go, and head for the group issue. Don F. specified > that > >>images are allowed, subject to a particular size in a very > dignified > >>non-threatening way. Yes, some of Kris's images were > frighteningly > >>inappropriate. But - Let's not say "all Kris's images were > objectionable, > >>therefore all images are objectionable, especially all Kris's > images. > And > >>Zoe is Chris, therefore Zoe is objectionable." > >> > >>Usually, a new order arises out of chaos (which seems to have been > the > >>experience with the earlier incarnation of this list). How can we > set > up a > >>more human face to face interaction? > >>We are pioneering, stretching the original conditions of Dialog by > putting > >>it on the internet. It takes time, effort, patience, and group > insight to > >>work out the kinks. > >>I propose that all of us reread our Bohm, look at the present > situation, > >>reformulate and restate what we expect of Dialog AND what we can > bring > to > >>it. And post it and discuss it. This should not be just a > "Zoe-thing". We > >>need to be mindful of this always. I shall begin on my statement > tonight, > >>and post it as soon as I have it in an acceptable form. I invite > you > to > >>do the same. A consensus could be made, voted on, and posted. I > >>volunteer to do the compiling, posting for feedback, and editing. > Someone > >>else would need to take care of the website. > >> > >>"...where everything is allowed and there are no rules." > >>K: What real good have "rules" and jails done? Do people really > need > > >>rules to keep them from killing each other? Have the rules worked? > >>I propose parameters & principles not rules, to be developed and > approved > >>by the group. Including Zoe. Whether or not the majority agrees > with > her, > >>listen to what she is saying. Some of it might make sense. > >>Further, authors of inappropriate postings should be issued a > warning > as > >>to the specific nature of the unacceptable action. Basic courtesy > is a > > >>must. Three warnings by the moderator, and the offender is out. > Flame > >>wars, i.e. personal heated arguments, are to be taken off the > list. > >>Appropriate guidelines to be issued before these remedies are put > in > >>place. Moderator to let list members know when a member is on > probation > >>for unsubscription. List rules and aims are customarily set out > before a > >>person joins, but we can also say "back to the drawing board". > >> > >>oh darn, where is Kris when we need her - s/he's right here. So > are > Zoe > >>and apparently Peter, too. They never left. And as long as we > talk > >>about them instead of inviting them back, the more of a phantom > life > their > >>presence will become. > >> > >>People who aren't open tend to stop the flow on some level. > Another > >>question might be is that the case here as well? Hmmmmm. > >> > >> > >>"Peripherals Unite" - I'm with you. > >> > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site > from > >>Microsoft Office Live > >>http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>info: > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >> > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >> > >>dialogue facilitator: > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net > >> > >>Administrator of the mailing list: > >>admin@david-bohm.net > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >info: > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > > >dialogue facilitator: > >facilitator@david-bohm.net > > > >Administrator of the mailing list: > >admin@david-bohm.net > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your > cash > with > Live Search! > http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&loca > le=en-US&source=hmtagline > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 09:23:53 2006 From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays) Date: Thu Nov 9 10:27:30 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Introductions and language Message-ID: <20061108082353.66695.qmail@web52912.mail.yahoo.com> Susan, I want to answer your post with a resounding YES! Me too!!! We aren't the only ones experimenting with connecting in being online, and THAT also excites me. Thank you and welcome back! kari Susan: "Personally I think it's not only possible but that we do it on this list all the time. For myself, I'm not nearly as interested in an intellectual discussion of Bohms ideas as I am in actually doing Dialogue here in this format of the internet. Like you, I feel that we are pioneers in this area." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > Hi Susan - No we haven't met. I don't mind at all giving information > about myself. I'm Kathy, 71 year old retired bilingual Spanish and music > teacher and composer, originally from Florida, with 35 years of service, > 10 years in Puerto Rico, and over 40 years living in NYC. I was also one > of the first teachers to be trained in conflict resolution. I have 2 sons > by a Puerto Rican father, and raised them alone/working mother, the whole > bit, here in NYC. I taught in both the South Bronx and the Upper West > Side. I lost my last husband, a Navajo with whom I lived on the ancestral > land in the Navajo Nation, on Dec. 25, right after 9 - 11. I also had the > privilege and delight of studying Navajo language, literature, traditions > and culture at Dine College/Navajo Community College. Navajo world view > is SO compatible with Bohm. That's one reason I'm so pro-Bohm and dialog. > I am also a co-moderator on another list, which is why, like you, I am > somewhat familiar with internet protocol and needs. > > I appreciate your thoughtful, candid response. Now I would like to > reciprocate. > > S: I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know from past > experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of us > have. > > K: I absolutely agree. He is every inch a scholar and a gentleman. If > requested, with acceptable guidelines in place, I'd be happy to help him > co-moderate, or in any way I could. I can't think of a better way to use > my time, except to get my face-to-face group started. Zoe also knows and > has accepted that I have said I will be the first to call her on any > actions I find inappropriate, as everyone else has the right to do. > > S: But I also know that it isn't going to do much good to pursue this > conversation until Don gets to >>Calif. and gets back on line. He will be facing 100's of posts on his >>return and could miss the important parts of the discussion trying to weed >>through the posts. > > K: That also sounds reasonable to me. > > S: he (Peter) spams the list - > K: that should go in the guidelines and principles.I think, as should any > other experiences that have been disruptive in the past. > > S: Peter has been given every chance - > K: here's where we diverge. I'm convinced he's not Peter, but if proven > wrong, I'll claim responsibility for my error, and help boot him with > proper procedure, if he violates guidelines. > > S: I have come to learn that, as you have mentioned, principles and > guidelines do seem to be necessary > K: Yes, and I deliberately chose the terminology hoping it was more > compatible with the original aims of Dialog. The terms are also open to > suggestion and change. > > S: I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and no spam. > I would also agree with you that the guidelines should be posted > K: Thank you. We need to list specifics that we consider trolling. I > testified to how it happened, and I know Don F will not deny it. He has a > log of all our correspondence on the subject, as I do. > > S: and anyone that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a warning > before being unsubscribed. > K: I had a lot of experience and training in documenting children's > undesirable behavior. I'd be happy to put that knowledge to use here. > > S: I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted with people's > suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the chance to respond. > But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people >>think. > K: I did not see that happen, and Zoe is very hurt that things were > handled this way. If anyone else has proof to the contrary about ZOE - > NOT Peter or Kris - both she and the rest of us should receive it, and Zoe > given a chance to respond. > > S: As you will discover, open honest communication is important to me. > K: I do see that, and am very comfortable dialoging with you. I hope we > can work together with interested others to develop and implement these > principles and guidelines. > > We are definitely forging a new path in Bohm, required by a new era in the > technological development of communication. It has been a pleasure > dialoging with you. If you are near or ever in NYC, please let me know. > I'd love to meet you. > > Hozhoon, Kathryn Morgan Jett Arizmendi (just so you'll know the identities > I currently use!) > (picture Kathy smiling happily) > > > >>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> >>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles >>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:10 -0700 >> >>I'm feeling a little confused about who wrote this message. You are a new >>member who was not here when I went on vacation so I'm not sure what your >>name is since the letter K doesn't say and there seem to be more than one >>person on the list today whose name starts with a K. >> >>When it comes to what is happening currently with Kris, Zoe and Peter, _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061108/5899bb9f/attachment.html From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 8 09:25:02 2006 From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel) Date: Thu Nov 9 10:33:50 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] age Message-ID: <20061108.002503.1128.4.franis_franis@juno.com> Yeah - wait until you get older; there is some perspective that comes with a longer time and experiences, but most people will pretty much always be the person they were when they were younger. Unless you changed yourself deliberately - then you're "reborn." I'm 52 - but I feel about 28. When I was 28, I felt as if I was 14. If you're curious for a pic of me, check out my website www.franis.org - Franis On Tue, 7 Nov 2006 23:10:24 -0800 (PST) Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com> writes: > this is a marvelous post and line of inquiry joachim! i too wonder if > we can consider what deeper meaning if any might exist in the midst > of our Peter drama. it has amazed me how much energy is devoted to > it/"him," and i wonder what aspects of our psyche that are needing > to be brought to light...maybe it is just the human tendency to make > meanings, but i wonder if there might be some individual and group > shadow material (blocked energy) needing to emerge here. i have > thought about leaving the list several times, but something keeps me > here. at first though it is the amazing people, but i wonder if it > is that simple? what is my/our lesson from this? > > the other thing i am excited about is you willingness to explore the > false dichotomies of either or. how about both and. why cant > compassion include challenging? lynne i think brought up ken wilber > and idiot compassion ealiuer and i think pema chodron has talked > about that. http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/qa5.php > > so we are talking about an ever evolving balance. > > i don't really have a point, i am tired abut wanted to jump in and > encourage this type of questioning and sharing! > > "young" and "old" unite! > > warmly, > kari > > From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 8 14:19:20 2006 From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett) Date: Thu Nov 9 15:23:00 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Introductions and language In-Reply-To: <00e901c702ab$655fd170$a278480c@HOME> Message-ID: <BAY22-F109D9CAE42B892EB109614A5F10@phx.gbl> Susan, You have no idea how delighted I am that we met! How I wish I had known you when Michael and I were in Cave Creek! He was finishing up his MA in creative wriing here at New School when the cancer struck, and we literally fled to Mayo in Scottsdale, hoping for a liver transplant. While there, we went to Tucson. Simon Ortiz wanted Michael to come there for his PhD. Unfortunately, Michael crossed over, but I have those memories. Michael grew up in Clifton where his father worked for Phelps Dodge; the first Indian to get a job above ground. I am so sorry about your car accident. You have a great hospital in Tucson, though. One of our transplant support group came to us from there. I hope you have a full recovery. You are not too far from Dine/Navajo Community College. The tuition is next to nothing, and you can stay in the dorms. Go there and study. There is a marvellous teacher of Navajo language named Martha Jackson. Another one name OJ whom you should stay away from. One named Ben - Littlehorse, I think. I can go to the website and pull it up. Ben is great! The study of the language is not complete without living the life with them. Avery Denny is a hatathli/medicine man whom I did an independent study under, oh - gosh - if you do that, maybe I'll come out and do it again, too. I really loved it. Denny used to tell me when and where certain ceremonies were being held so I could go. Harry Walters, the head of the museum, when I meet again I'll just put my arms around him and cry. I do so miss it! I'd love to read your posts on the language. All you say about nouns and verbs is true, but upon studying Bohm, I realized that there is a more basic connection - that is, how the language reflects the world view of connection and relationship as beauty - hozhoon - all my relations. One single lo-o-o-o-og word embodies what we call a noun, verb, and all its descriptive properties. And the selection of the properties is more complete and complex than anything we have in English. Actually, I find that our words for our grammar and syntax aren't really adequate to think about Navajo because they activate our experiences of English, and we erroneously expect Navajo to follow suit. But - we have no other words, so we try to translate. I find it a much more precise language than English. Vincent Craig, the Navajo comedian, once compared it to "mental television" because one word can describe physical features, movement, 1st/2nd/3rd person, and singular, plural (2), plural (3 or more). That's also why I refuse to be told I can't use images. Also, we use verbal imagery all the time. With these new resources, a new language HAS to develop. "recently people have begun to realize more and more that it might be possible to have a "true" dialogue in this format." Yes, actually, it never occurred to me NOT to dialog. After all, we've "dialogued" through snail mail for a long time. Any time two people try to communicate, a broad definition of dialog happens - not Bohm - but why should it be any different? As for "intellectual discussion", I totally agree. Sometimes, some of the posts I see remind me of the poem Jabberwocky! Totally severed from action and the rest of the world. My wonderful teacher Frances used to say "you have all there is. It's what you do with it that counts." She was SO right. So, Susan - I think the true spirit of Bohm is the creative - mechanical interplay, finally to result in new perceptions, new connections. As our options expand for exchange with wonderful people around the globe, the closer I feel, we get to what Bohm really envisioned. Especially if it's not restricted to those who have money to buy and support computers. So - upward and onward. Let's not fear that we aren't "doing Bohm". He believed that everything is in flux, and a man of his brilliance would have flowed with the new opportunitites evolving. I still have my Navajo books downstairs in storage where I put them when I lost Michael. Maybe soon I'll go down there and get the titles of the ones I think you might be interested in. Also, the NCC bookstore has a lot of great stuff, and will order things for you. And the library there is rich with their cultural material. If I ever learn how to get pictures to an acceptable size, I'll send you photos of my life with the Navajo. Hozhoon, k >From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Introductions and language >Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 13:29:15 -0700 > >Hi Kathy. Thanks for introducing yourself. I'll reciprocate with a little >information on me. I'm single, no children, just turned 55 and live in >Tucson, AZ. I currently work at home doing CAD drawings (computer aided >drafting) for the construction industry and working with graphics. I've >been a member of this group for 3 or 4 years now (can't remember exactly >when I joined). > >Back at the end of June I was in a car accident and ended up with a broken >right arm. They tell me that because it was broken close to the shoulder >it caused a lot of problems that aren't associated with most breaks. >Because of this the healing process has been long and taken a lot of my >energy. I would say I'm about 70% back to normal now. I still have a few >problems that will take a couple more months (so they say) for me to clear >up. > >I'm very interested in your experience with the Navajo. I'm very >interested in language and particularly Native American Language. I grew >up in Oklahoma among a large population of Native Americans and have had a >number of Native American friends. I've posted quite a bit of my ideas >about the differences in NA language and English in the past. The biggest >difference having to do with verbs. I have come to understand that in the >Western world we have come to think of processes as "things"/objects and >this has created a lot of problems in our thought process. Where as the >NA's have what I think of as a more verby language that is process >oriented. In fact, many of the NA languages as well as some Eastern >languages don't even have nouns. I have found a huge difference in >learning to think in verby terms (process oriented rather than object >oriented) in my own thought processes. > >When it comes to forging a new path in Dialogue, I think the group may be >only at the beginning of realizing and dealing with this. When I first >joined the list it was not considered an actual dialogue because it was not >face to face, and many people didn't believe that it was possible to have >an actual dialogue in this format. It was considered to be simply a list >started with the intentions of exploring Bohm's ideas done "in the spirit" >of dialogue. And you may have noticed that's still it's definition. But >recently people have begun to realize more and more that it might be >possible to have a "true" dialogue in this format. Personally I think it's >not only possible but that we do it on this list all the time. For myself, >I'm not nearly as interested in an intellectual discussion of Bohms ideas >as I am in actually doing Dialogue here in this format of the internet. >Like you, I feel that we are pioneers in this area. > >Susan > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com> >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:50 PM >Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > > >>Hi Susan - No we haven't met. I don't mind at all giving information >>about myself. I'm Kathy, 71 year old retired bilingual Spanish and music >>teacher and composer, originally from Florida, with 35 years of service, >>10 years in Puerto Rico, and over 40 years living in NYC. I was also one >>of the first teachers to be trained in conflict resolution. I have 2 sons >>by a Puerto Rican father, and raised them alone/working mother, the whole >>bit, here in NYC. I taught in both the South Bronx and the Upper West >>Side. I lost my last husband, a Navajo with whom I lived on the ancestral >>land in the Navajo Nation, on Dec. 25, right after 9 - 11. I also had the >>privilege and delight of studying Navajo language, literature, traditions >>and culture at Dine College/Navajo Community College. Navajo world view >>is SO compatible with Bohm. That's one reason I'm so pro-Bohm and dialog. >>I am also a co-moderator on another list, which is why, like you, I am >>somewhat familiar with internet protocol and needs. >> >>I appreciate your thoughtful, candid response. Now I would like to >>reciprocate. >> >>S: I do not envy Don F. his job of being moderator and I know from past >>experience that he has struggled with this issue. I think most of us >>have. >> >>K: I absolutely agree. He is every inch a scholar and a gentleman. If >>requested, with acceptable guidelines in place, I'd be happy to help him >>co-moderate, or in any way I could. I can't think of a better way to use >>my time, except to get my face-to-face group started. Zoe also knows and >>has accepted that I have said I will be the first to call her on any >>actions I find inappropriate, as everyone else has the right to do. >> >>S: But I also know that it isn't going to do much good to pursue this >>conversation until Don gets to >>>Calif. and gets back on line. He will be facing 100's of posts on his >>>return and could miss the important parts of the discussion trying to >>>weed through the posts. >> >>K: That also sounds reasonable to me. >> >>S: he (Peter) spams the list - >>K: that should go in the guidelines and principles.I think, as should any >>other experiences that have been disruptive in the past. >> >>S: Peter has been given every chance - >>K: here's where we diverge. I'm convinced he's not Peter, but if proven >>wrong, I'll claim responsibility for my error, and help boot him with >>proper procedure, if he violates guidelines. >> >>S: I have come to learn that, as you have mentioned, principles and >>guidelines do seem to be necessary >>K: Yes, and I deliberately chose the terminology hoping it was more >>compatible with the original aims of Dialog. The terms are also open to >>suggestion and change. >> >>S: I would be happy with any guidelines that say no trolling and no spam. >>I would also agree with you that the guidelines should be posted >>K: Thank you. We need to list specifics that we consider trolling. I >>testified to how it happened, and I know Don F will not deny it. He has a >>log of all our correspondence on the subject, as I do. >> >>S: and anyone that we do not know for certain is Peter deserves a warning >>before being unsubscribed. >>K: I had a lot of experience and training in documenting children's >>undesirable behavior. I'd be happy to put that knowledge to use here. >> >>S: I don't know if Zoe (or Kris) were ever confronted with people's >>suspicions that they were Peter or not and given the chance to respond. >>But I do think they deserved to be openly told what people >>>think. >>K: I did not see that happen, and Zoe is very hurt that things were >>handled this way. If anyone else has proof to the contrary about ZOE - >>NOT Peter or Kris - both she and the rest of us should receive it, and Zoe >>given a chance to respond. >> >>S: As you will discover, open honest communication is important to me. >>K: I do see that, and am very comfortable dialoging with you. I hope we >>can work together with interested others to develop and implement these >>principles and guidelines. >> >>We are definitely forging a new path in Bohm, required by a new era in the >>technological development of communication. It has been a pleasure >>dialoging with you. If you are near or ever in NYC, please let me know. >>I'd love to meet you. >> >>Hozhoon, Kathryn Morgan Jett Arizmendi (just so you'll know the identities >>I currently use!) >>(picture Kathy smiling happily) >> >> >> >>>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> >>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >>>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles >>>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 10:38:10 -0700 >>> >>>I'm feeling a little confused about who wrote this message. You are a >>>new member who was not here when I went on vacation so I'm not sure what >>>your name is since the letter K doesn't say and there seem to be more >>>than one person on the list today whose name starts with a K. >>> >>>When it comes to what is happening currently with Kris, Zoe and Peter, > >_______________________________________________ >info: >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > >dialogue facilitator: >facilitator@david-bohm.net > >Administrator of the mailing list: >admin@david-bohm.net > >_______________________________________________ > > _________________________________________________________________ Try the next generation of search with Windows Live Search today! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 8 14:30:31 2006 From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett) Date: Thu Nov 9 15:34:16 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles In-Reply-To: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695D0542@msw2k.msw.local> Message-ID: <BAY22-F8F78E2D2F6162F065680AA5F10@phx.gbl> Morning Dorothy (smiles) - PKZ is Peter-Kris-Zoe; UFT is United Federation of Teachers. The resolution skills (my pov, of course) could be incorporated into dialog, so that when the tough parts get going, we can hang in there together with courtesy and respect. My forebears came to Tennessee and Kentucky, but I have never been there. I know it's beautiful. I had dreams of finding them some day, but now arthritis makes travel so uncomfortable. I had no idea conflict resolution skills could command so much money. NYC teachers were trained as in service training, and practiced it as part of the job description. But did somebody refuse to pay the bill? There are so many great people on this list. I'm delighted to be part of it. Have a great day. k >From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org> >Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles >Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 15:41:49 -0500 > >I live in Knoxville TN, my law office is in Oak Ridge, TN. Mediation >when there is litigation costs a whale of a lot of money. Most of the >facilitators here charge around $350 and hour. Your experience sounds >wonderful. Conflict resolution IS a life skill and would be a great >thing for marriage or for commitment without that piece of paper. (I >don't know what the PKZ profile stands for? Nor the UFT)D > >-----Original Message----- >From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org >[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Morgan Jett >Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org >Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Passion, Compassion, and Principles > >Yes, Dorothy! We can only try our best. > >I've used those skills in places where I never thought I'd need them. I >was a newbie on the group I co-moderate when war broke out, and I >responded with the training. Got asked to do it officially, so I guess >you could say I'm using them now. I also had inservice training on >union negotiations, but I'm more at home with children - which seems to >fit the PKZ profile! >Although trying to present the povs of both the anti-pkz faction and the >pro-group to each other seems more in the Union category. Of course, >the UFT briefed us on how to handle problems in that system, and I'm no >stranger to those. Then, there was a rent strike for needed apartment >repairs, etc, etc, etc. Conflict resolution is a life skill everybody >should be trained in! > >How did the thing end up costing you $800? For school mediation, the >first step is to ask if they want or will accept mediation - build a >climate that will make