From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 9 00:03:12 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Tue Oct 10 01:00:25 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Logos
Message-ID: <cb3.39dcf5.325acfa0@aol.com>
Well, you know, Kirsten, or whatever your name is, energy does ebb and flow
sometimes.
>Thanks thanks thanks - and sorry sorry sorry - I realise as soon as I sent
>it that it was probably a
>silly question, or else would require a huge answer which might stop stop
>stop you doing
>what you were doing before I I I interrupted you! Hope it goes chat chat
>chat
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Oct 9 01:02:46 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Oct 10 01:59:59 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F21E7BF75EFFEC31B7D70FEA8110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F15DAFB4E9101C4BD44C786A8110@phx.gbl>
For all you hobby com posers at this for umumum of groomoomooming
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/sundayfeature/pip/zvj26/
G'night, K'bot
>From: "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:11:33 -0400
>
>
>
> [...] but a group that is too small
>doesnt work very well. if five or six people get
>together, they can usually adjust to each other so that they
>dont say the thinkgs that upset each other - they get a 'cozy
>adjustment'. people can easily be very polite to each other and
>avoid the issues that may cause trouble. and if there IS a
>confrontation between two or more people in such a small group,
>it seems very hard to stop it; it gets stuck. in a larger group,
>we may well start out politely. after a while, though, people
>can seldom continue to avoid all the issues that would be
>troublesome. the politeness falls away pretty soon. in a group
>of less than about 20 it may not, because people get to know
>each other and know the rough edges that they have to avoid.
>they can take it all into account; its not too much. but in a
>group of forty it IS too much
>
>
>
>so much cuddling here in this chatclub
>so much shoulder-tapping
>so much chest-clapping
>so little tough questioning
>so little daring
>so little radicalling
>
>where 're the tough thoughts/thinkgs
>where 're the uncomfortable questions
>where 're the thinkgers with balls & bearings
>where 's the bohm/dialog
>
>.....what a bunch of old lonely ego-starved
>truth-seeking denial-finding subscribers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Love & Cuttingthecrap, Kbot
>
>--------------------------
>Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>
>>Don L, forgive my wrongness or my tardiness (whichever applies) but there
>>is a flashing of a sense that Logos IS Meaning. -- Pat
>>
>>Yes. As a matter of course. That's the significance of Heidegger re the
>>Logos of Heraclitus. Both Heidegger and Bohm speak of unfolding, etc
>>(certainly not intending to sully Bohm here with H's politics).
>>
>>Again: "Since antiquity the Aoyoc* [Logos] of Heraclitus has been
>>interpreted in variouis ways: as Ratio, as Verbum, as cosmic law, as the
>>logical, as necessity in thought, as meaning and as reason." Heidegger,
>>Early Greek Thinking, p 60
>>
>>Note: Logos interpreted as Ratio (Latin), as MEANING and as REASON ....
>>
>>Pat, it seems the modern fragmented, alienated, estranged mind wants to
>>know, just exactly which is the logos: is it, Ratio, or REason, or
>>Meaning, etc, as if that which is (actuality) can be fractured, actually
>>separated in order to match the manmade, synthetic subject object
>>structure of language. However, giving close attention perhaps we see
>>this is not, cannot be the case.
>>
>>Again: Logos interpreted as MEANING. :-)
>>
>>Resonance? -- dbl
>>
>>
>>* this is as near to the Greek font as my typer will readily do.
>>
>>From: <ae.dropper@juno.com>
>>
>> > Don L, forgive my wrongness or my tardiness
>> > (whichever applies) but there is a flashing of a
>> > sense that Logos IS Meaning.
>> >
>> > If this is coherent or if it is consistent with
>> > what you would like to say, it would seem significant
>> > in that bohm Always qualified the Logos part of Dia Logos
>> > in his reference being not to "the word" but to "the meaning
>> > [of the word]."
>> >
>> > pat
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Search—Your way, your world, right now!
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From franis_franis at juno.com Mon Oct 9 01:44:11 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Tue Oct 10 02:45:53 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Logos
Message-ID: <20061008.164411.636.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Why, ...she could practice her high notes on a wind instrument or any
instrument she's unfamiliar with that she may be playing. She could be
programing the chord changes into "Band in the Box" music program and be
practicing improvising over them to get used to where the song might be
going. She could be meeting with the other members of the band to arrange
the beginnings and endings of the songs; so the improvising in the middle
sounds more polished. She could be printing out the invitations, or
making the banner announcing the event, or printing the tickets, or
calling to arrange for the bouncer/cleanup, etc.
Lots of ways to preparing for improvisational music!
- Franis
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 16:11:20 EDT MarkHarmer@aol.com writes:
>
>
> Without stopping you doing it, how do you prepare for an improv
> session?
> Hadn't struck me till I read it but it could seem a contradiction!
>
> I'm going to delay that for a little while. I'm preparing for an
> ensemble
> improv session tomorrow. But again, thanks. k
>
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 02:21:48 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 03:20:20 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F15DAFB4E9101C4BD44C786A8110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C14F0E5C.36C5%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Wow, Kris. I have never heard of him, but after reading the blurb, I'm
looking forward to what you sent. I'm done for the day on my own work. Do
you like his music? More coming on the other stuff you posted. k
On 10/8/06 7:02 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> For all you hobby com posers at this for umumum of groomoomooming
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/sundayfeature/pip/zvj26/
>
> G'night, K'bot
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>> Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:11:33 -0400
>>
>>
>>
>> [...] but a group that is too small
>> doesnt work very well. if five or six people get
>> together, they can usually adjust to each other so that they
>> dont say the thinkgs that upset each other - they get a 'cozy
>> adjustment'. people can easily be very polite to each other and
>> avoid the issues that may cause trouble. and if there IS a
>> confrontation between two or more people in such a small group,
>> it seems very hard to stop it; it gets stuck. in a larger group,
>> we may well start out politely. after a while, though, people
>> can seldom continue to avoid all the issues that would be
>> troublesome. the politeness falls away pretty soon. in a group
>> of less than about 20 it may not, because people get to know
>> each other and know the rough edges that they have to avoid.
>> they can take it all into account; its not too much. but in a
>> group of forty it IS too much
>>
>>
>>
>> so much cuddling here in this chatclub
>> so much shoulder-tapping
>> so much chest-clapping
>> so little tough questioning
>> so little daring
>> so little radicalling
>>
>> where 're the tough thoughts/thinkgs
>> where 're the uncomfortable questions
>> where 're the thinkgers with balls & bearings
>> where 's the bohm/dialog
>>
>> .....what a bunch of old lonely ego-starved
>> truth-seeking denial-finding subscribers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Love & Cuttingthecrap, Kbot
>>
>> --------------------------
>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>
>>
>>
>>> Don L, forgive my wrongness or my tardiness (whichever applies) but there
>>> is a flashing of a sense that Logos IS Meaning. -- Pat
>>>
>>> Yes. As a matter of course. That's the significance of Heidegger re the
>>> Logos of Heraclitus. Both Heidegger and Bohm speak of unfolding, etc
>>> (certainly not intending to sully Bohm here with H's politics).
>>>
>>> Again: "Since antiquity the Aoyoc* [Logos] of Heraclitus has been
>>> interpreted in variouis ways: as Ratio, as Verbum, as cosmic law, as the
>>> logical, as necessity in thought, as meaning and as reason." Heidegger,
>>> Early Greek Thinking, p 60
>>>
>>> Note: Logos interpreted as Ratio (Latin), as MEANING and as REASON ....
>>>
>>> Pat, it seems the modern fragmented, alienated, estranged mind wants to
>>> know, just exactly which is the logos: is it, Ratio, or REason, or
>>> Meaning, etc, as if that which is (actuality) can be fractured, actually
>>> separated in order to match the manmade, synthetic subject object
>>> structure of language. However, giving close attention perhaps we see
>>> this is not, cannot be the case.
>>>
>>> Again: Logos interpreted as MEANING. :-)
>>>
>>> Resonance? -- dbl
>>>
>>>
>>> * this is as near to the Greek font as my typer will readily do.
>>>
>>> From: <ae.dropper@juno.com>
>>>
>>>> Don L, forgive my wrongness or my tardiness
>>>> (whichever applies) but there is a flashing of a
>>>> sense that Logos IS Meaning.
>>>>
>>>> If this is coherent or if it is consistent with
>>>> what you would like to say, it would seem significant
>>>> in that bohm Always qualified the Logos part of Dia Logos
>>>> in his reference being not to "the word" but to "the meaning
>>>> [of the word]."
>>>>
>>>> pat
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial!
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.
>> windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Search?Your way, your world, right now!
>
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTA>
G
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 02:24:17 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 03:22:44 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Logos
In-Reply-To: <20061008.164411.636.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C14F0EF1.36C6%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Fran, I didn't know about "Band in a Box". That would be a help in my
practicing. I have Garage Band, but I don't know if that has the same
option. best, k
On 10/8/06 7:44 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> Why, ...she could practice her high notes on a wind instrument or any
> instrument she's unfamiliar with that she may be playing. She could be
> programing the chord changes into "Band in the Box" music program and be
> practicing improvising over them to get used to where the song might be
> going. She could be meeting with the other members of the band to arrange
> the beginnings and endings of the songs; so the improvising in the middle
> sounds more polished. She could be printing out the invitations, or
> making the banner announcing the event, or printing the tickets, or
> calling to arrange for the bouncer/cleanup, etc.
> Lots of ways to preparing for improvisational music!
> - Franis
>
>
> On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 16:11:20 EDT MarkHarmer@aol.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Without stopping you doing it, how do you prepare for an improv
>> session?
>> Hadn't struck me till I read it but it could seem a contradiction!
>>
>> I'm going to delay that for a little while. I'm preparing for an
>> ensemble
>> improv session tomorrow. But again, thanks. k
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From franis_franis at juno.com Mon Oct 9 01:58:49 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Tue Oct 10 03:26:48 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <20061008.165849.636.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Kbot: you'll love this blog:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/
enjoy, you linguistic gamer you. Just think of the text messaging morass
of comments that Kbot can leave on this blog! -
Actually - why don't you start your own blog, Peter? - Franis
On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:02:46 -0400 "kirsten schneide"
<kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> For all you hobby com posers at this for umumum of groomoomooming
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/sundayfeature/pip/zvj26/
>
> G'night, K'bot
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> >Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:11:33 -0400
> >
> >
> >
> > [...] but a group that is too small
> >doesnt work very well. if five or six people get
> >together, they can usually adjust to each other so that they
> >dont say the thinkgs that upset each other - they get a 'cozy
> >adjustment'. people can easily be very polite to each other and
> >avoid the issues that may cause trouble. and if there IS a
> >confrontation between two or more people in such a small group,
> >it seems very hard to stop it; it gets stuck. in a larger group,
> >we may well start out politely. after a while, though, people
> >can seldom continue to avoid all the issues that would be
> >troublesome. the politeness falls away pretty soon. in a group
> >of less than about 20 it may not, because people get to know
> >each other and know the rough edges that they have to avoid.
> >they can take it all into account; its not too much. but in a
> >group of forty it IS too much
> >
> >
> >
> >so much cuddling here in this chatclub
> >so much shoulder-tapping
> >so much chest-clapping
> >so little tough questioning
> >so little daring
> >so little radicalling
> >
> >where 're the tough thoughts/thinkgs
> >where 're the uncomfortable questions
> >where 're the thinkgers with balls & bearings
> >where 's the bohm/dialog
> >
> >.....what a bunch of old lonely ego-starved
> >truth-seeking denial-finding subscribers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Love & Cuttingthecrap, Kbot
> >
> >--------------------------
> >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >
> >
> >>Don L, forgive my wrongness or my tardiness (whichever applies)
> but there
> >>is a flashing of a sense that Logos IS Meaning. -- Pat
> >>
> >>Yes. As a matter of course. That's the significance of Heidegger
> re the
> >>Logos of Heraclitus. Both Heidegger and Bohm speak of unfolding,
> etc
> >>(certainly not intending to sully Bohm here with H's politics).
> >>
> >>Again: "Since antiquity the Aoyoc* [Logos] of Heraclitus has been
>
> >>interpreted in variouis ways: as Ratio, as Verbum, as cosmic law,
> as the
> >>logical, as necessity in thought, as meaning and as reason."
> Heidegger,
> >>Early Greek Thinking, p 60
> >>
> >>Note: Logos interpreted as Ratio (Latin), as MEANING and as REASON
> ....
> >>
> >>Pat, it seems the modern fragmented, alienated, estranged mind
> wants to
> >>know, just exactly which is the logos: is it, Ratio, or REason, or
>
> >>Meaning, etc, as if that which is (actuality) can be fractured,
> actually
> >>separated in order to match the manmade, synthetic subject object
> >>structure of language. However, giving close attention perhaps we
> see
> >>this is not, cannot be the case.
> >>
> >>Again: Logos interpreted as MEANING. :-)
> >>
> >>Resonance? -- dbl
> >>
> >>
> >>* this is as near to the Greek font as my typer will readily do.
> >>
> >>From: <ae.dropper@juno.com>
> >>
> >> > Don L, forgive my wrongness or my tardiness
> >> > (whichever applies) but there is a flashing of a
> >> > sense that Logos IS Meaning.
> >> >
> >> > If this is coherent or if it is consistent with
> >> > what you would like to say, it would seem significant
> >> > in that bohm Always qualified the Logos part of Dia Logos
> >> > in his reference being not to "the word" but to "the meaning
> >> > [of the word]."
> >> >
> >> > pat
> >
> >
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>info:
> >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >>dialogue facilitator:
> >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >>Administrator of the mailing list:
> >>admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day
> trial!
>
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http:/
/www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >info:
> >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> >dialogue facilitator:
> >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> >Administrator of the mailing list:
> >admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Search—Your way, your world, right now!
>
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=
WLMTAG
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 03:00:10 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 03:57:27 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F21E7BF75EFFEC31B7D70FEA8110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C14F175A.36C9%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Dear Kris -
so little tough questioning
so little daring
so little radicalling
We can ask the tough questions without insulting each other. There's a
difference between being honest, tough and assertive, and just plain
aggressive and mean. Putdowns is a kind of bullying. Also, a rapport that
permits constructive criticism usually must be developed over time. It's
part of learning to trust someone. With time, we gather information about a
person's intents. My experience has been that there are two ways people
have dealt with life challenges. Either they're out to get revenge by
hurting others, or they look for ways to keep the hurting from repeating. I
don't think it has anything to do with the size of the group.
Bohm wasn't god. Question his words against your own and the cumulative
experience of many different cultures. Don't be afraid to say "The Emperor
has on no clothes". It's how you say it plus the other person's readiness
to consider your pov that gets results - wanted or unwanted. I believe B
mentioned something about looking for new connections among old conclusions
- mechanistic knowledge. I don't think he thought he had exhausted all
there was to know on the topics he investigated. Creative thinking for him
was finding hitherto unnoticed connections, wherever they might be.
I certainly look forward to that kind of dialog with you, as well as with
the others in this group, and in my life.
Some people use "authorities'" (notably psychotherapists) conclusions, as a
rationalization to continue living with their neuroses, simply because it's
scary to change. Sometimes, they want to change, but hope for the cavalry
to ride in and rescue them instead of taking responsibility for changing
their attitudes and behavior. Contrary to what much of the "literature"
says, we can change behavior. It's call inhibition, and can be practiced in
stages. It starts with learning to have compassion for yourself. It's
having the guts to saw your arm off with a pocket knife because you want to
live.
In conclusion, tell me - do you know the story about the little boy who was
walking along the beach with an adult? The tide had stranded myriads of
little starfish on the sand. He began picking them up and throwing them
back in the water. The adult commented that he was wasting his time. That
the few little starfish he was able to throw back wouldn't make any
difference. The little boy looked at the adult with a very determined look
on his face, and said, "It makes a difference to the ones I threw back in
the water."
Love and Hozhoon, my friend. Hope to see you at coffee in the morning. k
On 10/8/06 5:11 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
> .....what a bunch of old lonely ego-starved
> truth-seeking denial-finding subscribers
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 03:17:07 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 04:14:24 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] RE: Peterfranis
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F21DAD9F6918D4F131BA97BA8110@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C14F1B53.36CB%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Kris - did you write this? If not, who did? If you didn't write it, it
obviously resonates with you.
Intent, as a thought, must arouse the brain cells before the act can occur.
Yes, many links are hidden, but looking for them is what I value in life.
And yes, we are often mistaken, but that's what learning is about. And life
goes on. And we can still love and be loved -both ourselves and others.
What is your take on the excerpt? Do you agree - that is if you didn't
write it? If you didn't write it, I would so much rather hear your own
thoughts in your own language, however much dissonance it contains, however
difficult it is to read, than to hear you let others put their words in your
mouth.
Is the Emperor wearing clothes? With Tough Love, k
On 10/8/06 4:52 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Chatgrouper of "dialog",
>
> Most persons remain quite incredulous when they are told that the rational
> principle of causality has exploded our native belief in na?f activity as
> somethinkg real, and our assumption that genuinely new fact can be created
> by work done. 'Le sens de la vie qui s'indigne de taiat de discourse'
> awakens in them and snaps its fingers at the 'critical' view. The present
> writer has also just called the critical view an incomplete abstraction. But
> its 'functional laws' and schematisms are splendidly useful, and its
> negations are true oftener than is commonly supposed. We feel as if our
> 'will' immediately moved our members, and we ignore the brain-cells whose
> activity that will must first arouse; we thinkg we cause the bell-ring, but
> we only close a contact and the battery in the cellar rings the bell; we
> thinkg a certain star's light is the cause of our now seeing it, but
> ether-waves are the causes, and the star may have been extinguished long
> ago."
>
> We call the 'draft,' the cause of our 'cold;' but without co-operant
> microbes the draft could do no harm. Mill says that causes must be
> unconditional antecedents, and Venn
> that they must be 'close' ones. In nature's numerous successions so many
> links are hidden, that we seldom know exactly which antecedent is
> unconditional or which is close. Often the cause which we name only fits
> some other cause for producing the phenomenon; and thinkgs, as Mill says,
> are frequently then most active when we assume them to be acted upon.
>
> This vast amount of error in our instinctive perceptions of causal activity
> encourages the conceptualist view. A step farther, and we suspect that to
> suppose causal activity anywhere may be a blunder, and that only
> consecutions and juxtapositions can be real. Such sweeping scepticism is,
> however, quite uncalled for. Other parts of experience expose us to error,
> yet we do not say that in them is no truth."
>
> We see trains moving at stations, when they are really standing still, or
> falsely we feel ourselves to be moving, when we are giddy, without such
> errors leading us to deny that motion anywhere exists. It exists elsewhere;
> and the problem is to place it rightly. It is the same with all other
> illusions of sense.
>
> Love & Powers, Kathryn
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>> That's all Peterbot seems to know how to do. He likes to see if he can
>> get anyone else's reaction to go off by saying whatever he thingks will
>> get a rise out of specific people. There is always an insult lurking
>> behind mostly anything he says, that's why he's learned to apologize as a
>> signature with the "love," salutation. He also is always pointing out
>> what he thingks is wrong with anyone else and how they shouldn't attach
>> their expectations.
>> If I didn't know better, I'd say Peter's age is thirteen. Franis
>>
>> On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 11:04:59 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
>> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>>> Pushing buttons again, Peter? k
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/8/06 8:39 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Peterkris
>>>>> Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 00:49:49 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>> Peterkris, you aren?t a musician at all! Why would you pretend
>>> to be who
>>>>> you aren?t? You must realize that it?s quite frustrating and
>>> exasperating
>>>>> to try to dialog with a kaleidoscopic hologram instead of a
>>> person.
>>>>> Furthermore, it doesn?t ring true. And DON?T ask what?s true.
>>> We don?t
>>>>> really have different definitions, and I don?t need to be prodded
>>> to
>>>>> ?think?.
>>>>>
>>>>> So come on. Games are games when all the players know they are
>>> playing a
>>>>> game, know the rules, and consent to it. That?s one of the ways
>>> you keep
>>>>> balanced when moving between realities.
>>>>> How you tango without getting kicked where it hurts. You and
>>> your wife are
>>>>> undoubtedly very nice people. Perhaps the potential for
>>> friendship could
>>>>> be
>>>>> there, but I have not consented to whatever this game is. And
>>> that is not
>>>>> the stuff friendship can be built on.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sending this to your private address because it is
>>> absolutely none of
>>>>> the group?s business.
>>>>>
>>>>> Disappointfrustrated ? Gutennacht!
>>>>>
>>>>> k
>>>>>
>>>>> I read yours and your wife?s dialog with Don F. Interesting.
>>> Fills in
>>>>> some of the blanks for a newbie. Do you know that one can?t open
>>> your
>>>>> movies on the web?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free
>>> 90-day trial!
>>>>
>>>
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://
>> www.w
>>>> indowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial!
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.w
> indowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 9 10:02:54 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Tue Oct 10 11:00:10 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <bc9.40e191a.325b5c2e@aol.com>
Yes. Negative thinking is the antithesis of creativity, and is an easy
option. That's why I asked Kirsten if s/he had been a journalist. I've worked with
a lot of them. It was just a hunch that he/she was, after getting so many
negative vibes. I've asked him/her a few other questions, none of which he/she
has responded to. Which leads me to think that s/he just enjoys insulting
people.
I'd like to ask you directly, Kirsten/Peter/Whoever, but honestly, what's
the point?
Creative thinking for him
was finding hitherto unnoticed connections, wherever they might be.
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Oct 9 11:23:04 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Oct 10 12:20:25 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Riskey
In-Reply-To: <bc9.40e191a.325b5c2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F3380DAF667999B5B28E610A8160@phx.gbl>
Dear Mark, sorry if I missed some of your questions. I am very busy
currently. And (unfortunately) don't have time to read all what gets flushed
through this chatpipe.
~ No, I was never a journalist. They are not part of my life/death.... other
than seeing their products. But i mostly consume other forms of input.
~ Please asked those questions again I might have skipped, if you care.
Thanks.
~ Whats the "point" of "what", dear? Don't understand.
~ And why do you feel I insult (you)? What is an 'insult', Mark. What kind
of thinkg is this? How does it 'work'
Thanks for dialogging & love, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>Yes. Negative thinking is the antithesis of creativity, and is an easy
>option. That's why I asked Kirsten if s/he had been a journalist. I've
>worked with
>a lot of them. It was just a hunch that he/she was, after getting so many
>negative vibes. I've asked him/her a few other questions, none of which
>he/she
>has responded to. Which leads me to think that s/he just enjoys insulting
>people.
>
>I'd like to ask you directly, Kirsten/Peter/Whoever, but honestly, what's
>the point?
>
>Creative thinking for him
>was finding hitherto unnoticed connections, wherever they might be.
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Search—Your way, your world, right now!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Oct 9 11:29:08 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Oct 10 12:26:26 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Humachine
In-Reply-To: <C14EB8D4.36B0%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F33BCC2929AA98EC1DFED42A8160@phx.gbl>
Dear "k", what are you talking about? Riversidechurch?...... And then you
keep asking me to fix 'my' website?? Because, as you say, you can't get
them???
PS: Your local Bohmoutfit: Why the hell do you need a 'leader' to talk, to
communicate, to share, to investigate, to live, to die....
pretty&ugly&pathetictictic ;-!
Screw "leaders".....(to {not just} the cross)
Love & Strolling, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>To: kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Humachine
>Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 14:16:52 -0400
>
>Hi - you're in. I'll send you either the page or the address of the site.
>(My idiosyncratic computer refuses to forward whole pages.) Probably
>tonight.
>
>So who the **** are you, then? How about a truthful image to go with the
>words? I really want to trust you, and I don't want to feel that you're
>mocking me.
>
>One more thing that's none of the group's business. The Bohm group that
>used to meet at Riverside Church no longer exists due to its "leader's"
>death. No one has taken responsibility for continuing the group "because
>no
>one knows enough about Bohm dialog". I can't function in a large group
>because I can't hear most of them even with hearing aids. They mumble.
>Also, I get impatient for other reasons, just like you do with the online
>group. I believe in taking something beyond the limits its originator was
>able to envision, even while keeping its monad and some of its connections
>intact, which is what I think you're doing, and revising when necessary. I
>like imagery, even though I am not a photographer or a visual artist. (The
>monad image you sent was striking.) My friend is, though - and one of her
>interests is physics. She and her sister also had their own language.
>
>Would you be interested in discussing with us, the possibility of forming
>such a group here in NYC? We can make our own game rules.
>
>Loveandhope - Kathy
>
>
>On 10/8/06 11:54 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
> > "k"
> >
> > what website do you keep talking about, dear?
> >
> > ps: I am not Peter, don't be a sucker
> >
> > Don't go for all that is posted at y'our Chatgroup
> >
> > (It 's 'just' a bunch of very lonely starving souls...
> >
> > ..... some of which have been around for 20-30 y
> >
> > Doing the same thinkg over and over and over..
> >
> > Wellaugh, you'll find out if you stick a round a bit
> >
> > ---- Which, I dare say, you will not ;-} ---
> >
> > Any how
> >
> > Use your brain
> >
> > Ask (yourselves) more ..... its: be coming
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Love, Kirsten
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hope you fix the web page so I can access your movies.
> >> Hozhoon - mayyouwalkinharmoniousrelationshiptoallyouarerelatedto,
>Peter.
> >> k
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/8/06 8:48 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Dear Chatclubbers (this one especially for Donf):
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Even when we think we are making rational choices and decisions, this
> >> may be
> >>> illusory too. The intriguing possibility is that we simply do not have
> >>> access to all of the unconscious information on which we base our
> >> decisions,
> >>> so we create fictions upon which to rationalise them, says
>Kringelbach.
> >> That
> >>> may well be a good thing, he adds. If we were aware of how we made
>every
> >>> choice we would never get anything done - we cannot hold that much
> >>> information in our consciousness. Wilson backs up this idea with some
> >>> numbers: he says our senses may take in more than 11 million pieces of
> >>> information each second, whereas even the most liberal estimates
>suggest
> >>> that we are conscious of just 40 of these.
> >>>
> >>> Nevertheless it is an unsettling thought that perhaps all our
>conscious
> >> mind
> >>> ever does is dream up stories in an attempt to make sense of our
>world.
> >> "The
> >>> possibility is left open that in the most extreme case all of the
>people
> >> may
> >>> confabulate all of the time," says Hall.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In the mean'time: hahahappy "dialoguing" .... for 'truth'.... and to
> >> 'get'
> >>> thought/tas
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kb ot
> >>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day
> >> trial!
> >>>
> >>
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.>>
>w
> >>> indowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> info:
> >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>>
> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> dialogue facilitator:
> >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >>> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
> >
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.m
> >
>icrosoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hm
> > tagline
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Oct 9 11:37:37 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Oct 10 12:34:55 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] bbbblokgkgkging
In-Reply-To: <20061008.165849.636.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F204CD1922C4054B8D42436A8160@phx.gbl>
Engel: >Kbot: you'll love this blog:
>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/
Dear Franis, actually, no, not interested in it... just as boring and
meaningless as your own blog, which i visited the other day. But thanks for
passing it along. Kbot is all ways interested in expansion. Ps: Where does
that necessity come from, this sperading dis ease, to blog blog blog....
what a waste ;-!... but then, we all 'gotta' waste our life some how, don't
we :;--!? Love & Hug, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>enjoy, you linguistic gamer you. Just think of the text messaging morass
>of comments that Kbot can leave on this blog! -
>Actually - why don't you start your own blog, Peter? - Franis
>
>On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:02:46 -0400 "kirsten schneide"
><kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> > For all you hobby com posers at this for umumum of groomoomooming
> >
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/sundayfeature/pip/zvj26/
> >
> > G'night, K'bot
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > >To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > >Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> > >Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:11:33 -0400
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [...] but a group that is too small
> > >doesnt work very well. if five or six people get
> > >together, they can usually adjust to each other so that they
> > >dont say the thinkgs that upset each other - they get a 'cozy
> > >adjustment'. people can easily be very polite to each other and
> > >avoid the issues that may cause trouble. and if there IS a
> > >confrontation between two or more people in such a small group,
> > >it seems very hard to stop it; it gets stuck. in a larger group,
> > >we may well start out politely. after a while, though, people
> > >can seldom continue to avoid all the issues that would be
> > >troublesome. the politeness falls away pretty soon. in a group
> > >of less than about 20 it may not, because people get to know
> > >each other and know the rough edges that they have to avoid.
> > >they can take it all into account; its not too much. but in a
> > >group of forty it IS too much
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >so much cuddling here in this chatclub
> > >so much shoulder-tapping
> > >so much chest-clapping
> > >so little tough questioning
> > >so little daring
> > >so little radicalling
> > >
> > >where 're the tough thoughts/thinkgs
> > >where 're the uncomfortable questions
> > >where 're the thinkgers with balls & bearings
> > >where 's the bohm/dialog
> > >
> > >.....what a bunch of old lonely ego-starved
> > >truth-seeking denial-finding subscribers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Love & Cuttingthecrap, Kbot
> > >
> > >--------------------------
> > >Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Don L, forgive my wrongness or my tardiness (whichever applies)
> > but there
> > >>is a flashing of a sense that Logos IS Meaning. -- Pat
> > >>
> > >>Yes. As a matter of course. That's the significance of Heidegger
> > re the
> > >>Logos of Heraclitus. Both Heidegger and Bohm speak of unfolding,
> > etc
> > >>(certainly not intending to sully Bohm here with H's politics).
> > >>
> > >>Again: "Since antiquity the Aoyoc* [Logos] of Heraclitus has been
> >
> > >>interpreted in variouis ways: as Ratio, as Verbum, as cosmic law,
> > as the
> > >>logical, as necessity in thought, as meaning and as reason."
> > Heidegger,
> > >>Early Greek Thinking, p 60
> > >>
> > >>Note: Logos interpreted as Ratio (Latin), as MEANING and as REASON
> > ....
> > >>
> > >>Pat, it seems the modern fragmented, alienated, estranged mind
> > wants to
> > >>know, just exactly which is the logos: is it, Ratio, or REason, or
> >
> > >>Meaning, etc, as if that which is (actuality) can be fractured,
> > actually
> > >>separated in order to match the manmade, synthetic subject object
> > >>structure of language. However, giving close attention perhaps we
> > see
> > >>this is not, cannot be the case.
> > >>
> > >>Again: Logos interpreted as MEANING. :-)
> > >>
> > >>Resonance? -- dbl
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>* this is as near to the Greek font as my typer will readily do.
> > >>
> > >>From: <ae.dropper@juno.com>
> > >>
> > >> > Don L, forgive my wrongness or my tardiness
> > >> > (whichever applies) but there is a flashing of a
> > >> > sense that Logos IS Meaning.
> > >> >
> > >> > If this is coherent or if it is consistent with
> > >> > what you would like to say, it would seem significant
> > >> > in that bohm Always qualified the Logos part of Dia Logos
> > >> > in his reference being not to "the word" but to "the meaning
> > >> > [of the word]."
> > >> >
> > >> > pat
> > >
> > >
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>info:
> > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >>
> > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > >>
> > >>dialogue facilitator:
> > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > >>
> > >>Administrator of the mailing list:
> > >>admin@david-bohm.net
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day
> > trial!
> >
> >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http:/
>/www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >info:
> > >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >dialogue facilitator:
> > >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >Administrator of the mailing list:
> > >admin@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Search—Your way, your world, right now!
> >
>http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=
>WLMTAG
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Oct 9 11:40:52 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Oct 10 12:38:12 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Prepared Improvising
In-Reply-To: <C14EC700.36B8%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F4E648EF0B0BADAAD5A4C5A8160@phx.gbl>
>I'm going to delay that for a little while. I'm preparing for an ensemble
>improv session tomorrow.
Great "improv" that needs to be "prepared" for.... o boy o boy ... ok, gotta
["gotta'} go and get some 'rteal' work done here. Adios gringos. Love &
Thoroughunpreparedness, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
But again, thanks. k
>
>
>On 10/8/06 2:52 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > Check out this web site, download the graphic "intervalometers" for your
> > favorite musical instruments...
> > then I'll tell you some of what this guy has done with his reverse
> > engineered jazz music theories that will blow your mind and make you an
> > easier improviser. - Franis
> > http://www.mrnatural.net
> >
> > I‚m trying to do that as I search for the patterns, structures, and
> > connections in music theory, and apply them to learning to improvise.
>k
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best
route! http://local.live.com
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 12:10:37 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 13:08:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Prepared Improvising
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F4E648EF0B0BADAAD5A4C5A8160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C14F985D.36DA%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Oh boy, Kris. Looks like you got up on the wrong side of the bed today.
Have a good one, k
On 10/9/06 5:40 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> I'm going to delay that for a little while. I'm preparing for an ensemble
>> improv session tomorrow.
>
>
> Great "improv" that needs to be "prepared" for.... o boy o boy ... ok, gotta
> ["gotta'} go and get some 'rteal' work done here. Adios gringos. Love &
> Thoroughunpreparedness, Kbot
>
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But again, thanks. k
>>
>>
>> On 10/8/06 2:52 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Check out this web site, download the graphic "intervalometers" for your
>>> favorite musical instruments...
>>> then I'll tell you some of what this guy has done with his reverse
>>> engineered jazz music theories that will blow your mind and make you an
>>> easier improviser. - Franis
>>> http://www.mrnatural.net
>>>
>>> I???m trying to do that as I search for the patterns, structures, and
>>> connections in music theory, and apply them to learning to improvise.
>> k
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
then map the best
> route! http://local.live.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 13:10:18 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 14:07:37 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Logos
In-Reply-To: <20061008.115331.1696.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C14FA65A.36DC%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
On 10/8/06 2:52 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> then I'll tell you some of what this guy has done with his reverse
> engineered jazz music theories that will blow your mind and make you an
> easier improviser. - Franis
Morning, Franis -
I just went through the website. Interesting, but I guess I need more
information. What I found on the website is no help to me at all. Numbers
are used in many ways by music, so that is nothing new. One use of numbers
is to denote the chord functions of a key, which apply to all keys
permitting one to grasp the art of transposition. And, I've been reading
and writing music for 66 years! That's the problem! I'm visually oriented
in an auditory art. And I'm not working with jazz improvisation, either at
this time. Although jazz and classical share the same materials, there are
significant harmonic differences in addition to the obvious rhythmic ones,
and a greater variety of structures larger than Song Form in the classical
palette.
Also, Mr. Natural states that Bach developed the well tempered system of
tuning. I don't know what his definition of "developed" is, but what Bach
actually did was to compose The Well Tempered Klavier to demonstrate the
unique characteristics of tempered tuning. Evidence apparently exists that
he actually preferred just over tempered tuning.
I really appreciate your taking the time to forward the link, in spite of my
critique.
The book I keep referring to that I am working with, Mathieu "Harmonic
Experience", works through just tuning, Pythagorean commas, well tempered
tuning and Indian ragas.
Best, k
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 13:14:02 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 14:11:23 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Humachine
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F33BCC2929AA98EC1DFED42A8160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C14FA73A.36DE%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
What's the content under the wrapper today, Kris?
Hozhoon, k
On 10/9/06 5:29 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear "k", what are you talking about? Riversidechurch?...... And then you
> keep asking me to fix 'my' website?? Because, as you say, you can't get
> them???
>
> PS: Your local Bohmoutfit: Why the hell do you need a 'leader' to talk, to
> communicate, to share, to investigate, to live, to die....
> pretty&ugly&pathetictictic ;-!
>
> Screw "leaders".....(to {not just} the cross)
>
>
> Love & Strolling, Kbot
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>> To: kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Humachine
>> Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 14:16:52 -0400
>>
>> Hi - you're in. I'll send you either the page or the address of the site.
>> (My idiosyncratic computer refuses to forward whole pages.) Probably
>> tonight.
>>
>> So who the **** are you, then? How about a truthful image to go with the
>> words? I really want to trust you, and I don't want to feel that you're
>> mocking me.
>>
>> One more thing that's none of the group's business. The Bohm group that
>> used to meet at Riverside Church no longer exists due to its "leader's"
>> death. No one has taken responsibility for continuing the group "because
>> no
>> one knows enough about Bohm dialog". I can't function in a large group
>> because I can't hear most of them even with hearing aids. They mumble.
>> Also, I get impatient for other reasons, just like you do with the online
>> group. I believe in taking something beyond the limits its originator was
>> able to envision, even while keeping its monad and some of its connections
>> intact, which is what I think you're doing, and revising when necessary. I
>> like imagery, even though I am not a photographer or a visual artist. (The
>> monad image you sent was striking.) My friend is, though - and one of her
>> interests is physics. She and her sister also had their own language.
>>
>> Would you be interested in discussing with us, the possibility of forming
>> such a group here in NYC? We can make our own game rules.
>>
>> Loveandhope - Kathy
>>
>>
>> On 10/8/06 11:54 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "k"
>>>
>>> what website do you keep talking about, dear?
>>>
>>> ps: I am not Peter, don't be a sucker
>>>
>>> Don't go for all that is posted at y'our Chatgroup
>>>
>>> (It 's 'just' a bunch of very lonely starving souls...
>>>
>>> ..... some of which have been around for 20-30 y
>>>
>>> Doing the same thinkg over and over and over..
>>>
>>> Wellaugh, you'll find out if you stick a round a bit
>>>
>>> ---- Which, I dare say, you will not ;-} ---
>>>
>>> Any how
>>>
>>> Use your brain
>>>
>>> Ask (yourselves) more ..... its: be coming
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Love, Kirsten
>>>
>>> --------------------------
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hope you fix the web page so I can access your movies.
>>>> Hozhoon - mayyouwalkinharmoniousrelationshiptoallyouarerelatedto,
>> Peter.
>>>> k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/8/06 8:48 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Chatclubbers (this one especially for Donf):
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even when we think we are making rational choices and decisions, this
>>>> may be
>>>>> illusory too. The intriguing possibility is that we simply do not have
>>>>> access to all of the unconscious information on which we base our
>>>> decisions,
>>>>> so we create fictions upon which to rationalise them, says
>> Kringelbach.
>>>> That
>>>>> may well be a good thing, he adds. If we were aware of how we made
>> every
>>>>> choice we would never get anything done - we cannot hold that much
>>>>> information in our consciousness. Wilson backs up this idea with some
>>>>> numbers: he says our senses may take in more than 11 million pieces of
>>>>> information each second, whereas even the most liberal estimates
>> suggest
>>>>> that we are conscious of just 40 of these.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nevertheless it is an unsettling thought that perhaps all our
>> conscious
>>>> mind
>>>>> ever does is dream up stories in an attempt to make sense of our
>> world.
>>>> "The
>>>>> possibility is left open that in the most extreme case all of the
>> people
>>>> may
>>>>> confabulate all of the time," says Hall.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the mean'time: hahahappy "dialoguing" .... for 'truth'.... and to
>>>> 'get'
>>>>> thought/tas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kb ot
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day
>>>> trial!
>>>>>
>>>>
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.
>> >>
>> w
>>>>> indowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> info:
>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>
>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
>>>
>>
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.>>
m
>>>
>>
icrosoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=h>>
m
>>> tagline
>>>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagi
> ne-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 14:39:01 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 15:36:26 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Prepared Improvising
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F4E648EF0B0BADAAD5A4C5A8160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C14FBB25.36E4%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
From the introduction by Gunther Schuller to "Improvising Jazz" by Jerry
Coker.
There are a number of myths which, by their weed-like persistence,
contribute much to the controversy surrounding the subject of teaching
improvisation and its characteristic techniques...One myth consists of the
unfortunate notion that the creation of music is a vague, nebulous act
fundamentally outside the control of the creator, that is, the composer; and
that there is a state called "inspiration" which periodically descends from
"above," being granted only to those...who, for equally nebulous reasons,
are especially endowed to receive such inspirations..Indeed, until quite
recently...if one dared suggest that a King Oliver or Charlie Parker did
some kind of "thinking"...one was ostracized as a spoilsport...Music was
thought to emanate full-flown from the mouth and fingers of the player,
without benefit of any intermediary such as the brain.
This deception is and was possible because very few people bother to make
the distinction between what is conscious and what is subconscious in the
creative process...Inspiration is like a seed which cannot come forth until
the ground has been prepared and a certain formative period has elapsed. In
a sense, the composer, when inspired, is discovering the next move. But
this discovery can occur only when all or almost all of the inherent
possibilities for that next move have been appraised...Thus what I have here
called "the most complete mental and psychological preparation" is really
the crux of the matter. It is the requisite condition under which
inspiration can take wings.
I find this to be absolutely true. And the discovery and use of structures,
patterns, and relationships is all part of it. k
On 10/9/06 5:40 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> I'm going to delay that for a little while. I'm preparing for an ensemble
>> improv session tomorrow.
>
>
> Great "improv" that needs to be "prepared" for.... o boy o boy ... ok, gotta
> ["gotta'} go and get some 'rteal' work done here. Adios gringos. Love &
> Thoroughunpreparedness, Kbot
>
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But again, thanks. k
>>
>>
>> On 10/8/06 2:52 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Check out this web site, download the graphic "intervalometers" for your
>>> favorite musical instruments...
>>> then I'll tell you some of what this guy has done with his reverse
>>> engineered jazz music theories that will blow your mind and make you an
>>> easier improviser. - Franis
>>> http://www.mrnatural.net
>>>
>>> I???m trying to do that as I search for the patterns, structures, and
>>> connections in music theory, and apply them to learning to improvise.
>> k
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
then map the best
> route! http://local.live.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Mon Oct 9 15:15:49 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Tue Oct 10 16:13:23 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: No right brain?
In-Reply-To: <20061010100003.76A3323AF0@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF312A32FD.7CE81046-ON85257202.0042F423-85257202.0048DC49@dialogos.com>
Rodger __ Declarative memory is our ability to store and recall information
that we speak or write. The brain does not store memories in a linear
manner, it stores memories in neural circuits or networks located through
out the brain.
When we recall an event, we are actually reconstructing it, data is drawn
from all around the brain. Our emotional-cognitive functions or 'structure
of knowledge' from a specific learning event, will include the memory
patterns of the emotional hormones prominent at the time of learning.
Thus the emotions experienced while learning become part of the learned
pattern -- even years later, the same emotional hormones will fire on cue
and our body, brain and feelings automatically respond accordingly.
Until quite recently medical science thought neural cel locations were
limited to the brain. But neurocardiology has affirmed that each organ has
its own neural cells.
The human heart has its own complex neuronal processing and memory
capabilities, indicating the heart can process information independent of
CNS/ brain.
The glial cells make up 80 percent of the mass of our brain. Glia was long
considered the glue that held the neurons in place. But recent discoveries
reveal glia as electromagnetically sensitive, forming an interactive em
field in the brain -- over and above the electrochemical fields of neurons.
There are ten or more glia clustered around each neuron. Em-sensitive glia
select from the electromagnetic surrounding -- in order for em frequencies
to be translated into electrochemical signals to the neurons?from there the
neural system uses the information to build our world experience.
This may be how we pick up on another persons feelings. Or on a crowded
street how we intuitively become aware of a stranger who is
on-our-wave-length.
While each section of the brain focuses on doing its part in working
together, re: the whole -- the Left Hemisphere is the only section that can
reach conclusions almost completely independent of real-time sensory input.
i.e. it performs logical reasoning as if separate from the whole --its task
is not to learn anew, but arrange and rearrange data already processed &
stored by other sections.
For example, by using an idea of liberation, the Left-Hemisphere of the
brain can simply find lines of reasoning to justify violation in a way that
gives the act an appearance of being right -- i.e. Iraq? Thus
rationalizing any number of conflicting relationships or actions.
ref: Dr. J. Andrew Armour , Roegel JC, Toussaint M, Ehrhart J, Stephan D,
Imbs JL., Goldberg, J Pearce, - END--_R
.
.
From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: gender brain difference
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
Hi Rodger ? About a year ago I attended a several day series of workshops
at
Harvard on this topic. One very outstanding point made was that not only
are physical movement and emotion part of cognitive processing, but that
many different parts of the brain are involved in any task. They were very
careful to debunk the idea of right brain ? left brain focus. k
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 15:27:17 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 16:25:01 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: No right brain?
In-Reply-To: <OF312A32FD.7CE81046-ON85257202.0042F423-85257202.0048DC49@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C14FC675.36E6%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Thank you. Will check this out. k
On 10/9/06 9:15 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> Rodger __ Declarative memory is our ability to store and recall information
> that we speak or write. The brain does not store memories in a linear manner,
> it stores memories in neural circuits or networks located through out the
> brain.
>
> When we recall an event, we are actually reconstructing it, data is drawn from
> all around the brain. Our emotional-cognitive functions or 'structure of
> knowledge' from a specific learning event, will include the memory patterns of
> the emotional hormones prominent at the time of learning.
>
> Thus the emotions experienced while learning become part of the learned
> pattern -- even years later, the same emotional hormones will fire on cue and
> our body, brain and feelings automatically respond accordingly.
>
> Until quite recently medical science thought neural cel locations were limited
> to the brain. But neurocardiology has affirmed that each organ has its own
> neural cells.
> The human heart has its own complex neuronal processing and memory
> capabilities, indicating the heart can process information independent of CNS/
> brain.
>
> The glial cells make up 80 percent of the mass of our brain. Glia was long
> considered the glue that held the neurons in place. But recent discoveries
> reveal glia as electromagnetically sensitive, forming an interactive em field
> in the brain -- over and above the electrochemical fields of neurons.
>
> There are ten or more glia clustered around each neuron. Em-sensitive glia
> select from the electromagnetic surrounding -- in order for em frequencies to
> be translated into electrochemical signals to the neurons?from there the
> neural system uses the information to build our world experience.
>
> This may be how we pick up on another persons feelings. Or on a crowded street
> how we intuitively become aware of a stranger who is on-our-wave-length.
>
> While each section of the brain focuses on doing its part in working together,
> re: the whole -- the Left Hemisphere is the only section that can reach
> conclusions almost completely independent of real-time sensory input.
>
> i.e. it performs logical reasoning as if separate from the whole --its task is
> not to learn anew, but arrange and rearrange data already processed & stored
> by other sections.
>
> For example, by using an idea of liberation, the Left-Hemisphere of the brain
> can simply find lines of reasoning to justify violation in a way that gives
> the act an appearance of being right -- i.e. Iraq? Thus rationalizing any
> number of conflicting relationships or actions.
>
> ref: Dr. J. Andrew Armour , Roegel JC, Toussaint M, Ehrhart J, Stephan D, Imbs
> JL., Goldberg, J Pearce, - END--_R
> .
> .
> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: gender brain difference
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> Hi Rodger ? About a year ago I attended a several day series of workshops at
> Harvard on this topic. One very outstanding point made was that not only
> are physical movement and emotion part of cognitive processing, but that
> many different parts of the brain are involved in any task. They were very
> careful to debunk the idea of right brain ? left brain focus. k
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 16:46:22 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 17:43:46 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Humachine
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F33BCC2929AA98EC1DFED42A8160@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C14FD8FE.36E9%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
On 10/9/06 5:29 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
... you keep asking me to fix 'my' website
> Because, as you say, you can't get
> them???
Quote me accurately, Kris, if you're going to quote me.
"Them" was the movies attributed to Peter Krauss that won't open. Judging
from your choice of forwarded images, I would have thought those moves, if
yours, would have been extraordinary.
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Oct 9 18:48:59 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Oct 10 19:46:24 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: No right brain?
In-Reply-To: <OF312A32FD.7CE81046-ON85257202.0042F423-85257202.0048DC49@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C14FF5BB.36ED%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Wow! In other words - ?how rationalization works, a scientific
explanation?. I had seen it happen more than once, but did not have the
scientific data you supplied.
I believe the part on emotional hormones is what present therapists and
theorists base their ideas on that certain responses can?t be changed. I
may be wrong.
How great that you had the applicable information. k
On 10/9/06 9:15 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> Rodger __ Declarative memory is our ability to store and recall information
> that we speak or write. The brain does not store memories in a linear manner,
> it stores memories in neural circuits or networks located through out the
> brain.
>
> When we recall an event, we are actually reconstructing it, data is drawn from
> all around the brain. Our emotional-cognitive functions or 'structure of
> knowledge' from a specific learning event, will include the memory patterns of
> the emotional hormones prominent at the time of learning.
>
> Thus the emotions experienced while learning become part of the learned
> pattern -- even years later, the same emotional hormones will fire on cue and
> our body, brain and feelings automatically respond accordingly.
>
> Until quite recently medical science thought neural cel locations were limited
> to the brain. But neurocardiology has affirmed that each organ has its own
> neural cells.
> The human heart has its own complex neuronal processing and memory
> capabilities, indicating the heart can process information independent of CNS/
> brain.
>
> The glial cells make up 80 percent of the mass of our brain. Glia was long
> considered the glue that held the neurons in place. But recent discoveries
> reveal glia as electromagnetically sensitive, forming an interactive em field
> in the brain -- over and above the electrochemical fields of neurons.
>
> There are ten or more glia clustered around each neuron. Em-sensitive glia
> select from the electromagnetic surrounding -- in order for em frequencies to
> be translated into electrochemical signals to the neurons?from there the
> neural system uses the information to build our world experience.
>
> This may be how we pick up on another persons feelings. Or on a crowded street
> how we intuitively become aware of a stranger who is on-our-wave-length.
>
> While each section of the brain focuses on doing its part in working together,
> re: the whole -- the Left Hemisphere is the only section that can reach
> conclusions almost completely independent of real-time sensory input.
>
> i.e. it performs logical reasoning as if separate from the whole --its task is
> not to learn anew, but arrange and rearrange data already processed & stored
> by other sections.
>
> For example, by using an idea of liberation, the Left-Hemisphere of the brain
> can simply find lines of reasoning to justify violation in a way that gives
> the act an appearance of being right -- i.e. Iraq? Thus rationalizing any
> number of conflicting relationships or actions.
>
> ref: Dr. J. Andrew Armour , Roegel JC, Toussaint M, Ehrhart J, Stephan D, Imbs
> JL., Goldberg, J Pearce, - END--_R
> .
> .
> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: gender brain difference
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> Hi Rodger ? About a year ago I attended a several day series of workshops at
> Harvard on this topic. One very outstanding point made was that not only
> are physical movement and emotion part of cognitive processing, but that
> many different parts of the brain are involved in any task. They were very
> careful to debunk the idea of right brain ? left brain focus. k
>
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>
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>
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From donlay at gte.net Mon Oct 9 23:01:34 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Tue Oct 10 23:59:12 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Logos
References: <c17.67d15a1.325a7aaa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003601c6ebe6$1ae8fd00$2f01a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Yes. It's sort of like science worship. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Logos
Is that because there was a point where science and art split, and the language of measurement and commerce was seen as more "useful" than the language of emotion and affect?
And after all those centuries of physical laws and measurement, we have descovered that the more closely we look(quantum mechanics) the more difficult things become to measure. Quantum mechanics is full of strange and charming language as we start to have to describe what we assume is our physical world in quite abstract, poetic terms again.
Paracelsus is in ?Alchemy & Mysticism?, but not Parmenides. I don?t remember the others in question, but perhaps there is some subconscious feeling that these early thinkers weren?t
?scientific?, therefore we tend to discount them, even fear them. I have seen that happen in other areas of endeavor. k
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Oct 9 23:31:50 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Wed Oct 11 00:29:26 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: Logos
Message-ID: <c38.4c5a257.325c19c6@aol.com>
But in some of the writing I've seen, scientists indulge in arts worship
too!!
Yes. It's sort of like science worship. -- Don L
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