From DStulberg at msw-law.com Sat Oct 14 00:02:03 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Sun Oct 15 00:58:52 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695CFEC9@msw2k.msw.local>
Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that needs
some thoughtful consideration.
Working on being present in the "now" is worth while. I know when I
"strive" I lose the moment--it is so easy to do during a trial or even
during a deposition or even when trying to understand the position of a
client. I can tell when I lose my "self" but often can't stop. I think
it is possible to be in the now even when striving if it is an honest
striving. D.
-----Original Message-----
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Regina
Bensch-Coe
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:17 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
We unfold and enfold simultaneously. There is nothing else. (pat)
To have moments of this awareness of "unfolding and enfolding
simultaneously" is to live in the "Now," to be fully present, to not
grasp or seek anything. When I am striving, I am in a reflex-mode, in a
non-proprioception state, and the sense of "unfolding and enfolding
simultaneously" is so easily forgotten.
Regina
>From: ae.dropper@juno.com
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:46:31 -0400
>
>There's the old, old idea of being logos directed. Two millennia ago,
>wise men were said to be logos directed. Perhaps PROCESS THOUGHT is a
>way to understand that -- not the kind of process philosophy that would
>require a prissy PhD to explain -- just everyday knocking around sense.
>The idea is that many,many processes must obtain before you can bat
>an eye lash, before you can know that you are. (don L)
>
>We unfold and enfold simultaneously. There is nothing else. The
"process"
>part (regarding self)
>is hidden from the "outer" senses but not from the "inner" senses.
>This is a "self - aware movement. It is like musical "movement [where,
>incidentally, the "outer"
>senses do perceive the
>simultaneity" of unfoldment / enfoldment]. (pat)
>
>
>When it became law that everyone must "have a personal identity",
>somehow we stopped being wise and started acting and pretending to be
>the image associated with the personal identity. That is, we ignore
>the processes
> that we are, by which we interact with the WHOLE and act and pretend
>that we are identical with the optical image, the photo image.
>
>Giving careful attention to universal processes, logos, perhaps we can
>begin to investigate and perhaps somehow identify with those processes
>that actually identify what we are instead of just what the imagery
>suggests.
>
>Reason-ance? -- Don Lay
>
>Yes. There seem to be such identity phases or moments - if it could be
>called that - a sense that 'what I am is process or in process'. But it
>seems that even this kind of identification is not necessary - except
>probably as a means of attempting to think and speak of what is
>happening now in relation to what was happening when identity was with
>images.
>
>pat
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_______________________________________________
info:
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
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_______________________________________________
From DStulberg at msw-law.com Sat Oct 14 00:05:43 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Sun Oct 15 01:02:25 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695CFECA@msw2k.msw.local>
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? D.
________________________________
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Arizmendi
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions?
My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
elaborate more when I've sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
incorporate today at CCNY.
Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
principles, we will forge a new path.
Hurray! k
On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
I'm in! Let's work with it.
pat
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
writes:
What does it mean that the Greek logos has been
interpreted as meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning?
What is the meaning?
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and
arbitrary definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an
experiment, to use the idea that logos means meaning?
Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as
dia meaning or in terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance,
logos-ance
Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about
Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance. _R
.
.
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music
& assumptions
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
It seems to me that so long as we continue
talking about the persona instead of instead of the processes, we
continue to pollute experience. Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance?
-- Don L
________________________________
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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From DStulberg at msw-law.com Sat Oct 14 00:15:57 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Sun Oct 15 01:12:40 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695CFECB@msw2k.msw.local>
It's funny. Today a client and I met with the opposite side. She told
me I am too nice and don't have the inutition of how bad the other
people are. She has an intuition, according to her, of who is being
honest and who is a "good" person.
I thought about that on the two hour drive back from the meeting.
I have fought that kind of intuition, if I ever had it. I don't want to
begin with the idea someone is cheating or evil (Bush aside--he has
given so many examples it is beyond intuition.) The idea of Bohm and of
collaborative learning has directed me to avoid deciding what kind of
person a person is. Rather look at the actions and talk about them and
try to understand the grounding of the other one.
I'm rattling as usual. This has been a very demanding day. D.
________________________________
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Arizmendi
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:10 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
Morning, Rodger -
Thanks for the "heart" reference.
As for "intuition" - are you referring to these definitions?
in*tu*i*tion n
1. the state of being aware of or knowing something without having to
discover or perceive it, or the ability to do this
2. something known or believed instinctively, without actual evidence
for it
3. immediate knowledge of something
Encarta(r) World English Dictionary (c) 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All
rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
I get hunches (see the book "Blink"), but I don't consider that
knowledge. And when I get a hunch, possibly a variation on the idea of
"theory", I don't consider that knowledge in the sense of scientific
fact. It is definitely something I investigate further.
Also, I'm curious about the subtext of this particular question. I'm
sensing a little abrasiveness below the surface. Hope I'm wrong.
Best, k
On 10/13/06 6:53 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
<Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger __Intuition. Are you asking about intuition because you
have no personal experience of intuition?
Like photographic memory, intuition does not scientifically
exist. In science, photographic memory exists only by other names,
according to the era you search for it; Eidetic-memory is a present
favorite, while Epidetectorial memory was a previous.
While intuition may not exist, there are many related areas
which do -- telekinetic, telepathic, etc.
And in fact I do consider the unique neural cell process in the
human heart to be part the component of conscience. The trouble is,
people always want -knowing- defined according to the brain.
To know more about neural cells of the heart: -Basic & Clinical
Neurocardiology, J.A. Armour, J.L. Ardell- describes the heart from a
purely medical standpoint. _R
.
.
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:34:00 -0400
From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: No right brain?
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
Did you and the scientist you worked with define intuition?
Where can I find scientific information on "the hearts own
complex neuronal
processing and memory capabilities."
What do you mean by "heart"? For a while, I thought you meant
my heart
inside my body pumping blood, but I don't think so now.
.
.
________________________________
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 04:36:39 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 05:35:06 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
In-Reply-To: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695CFECB@msw2k.msw.local>
Message-ID: <C155C577.37E8%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Rather look at the actions and talk about them and try to understand the
grounding of the other one.
I'm rattling as usual. This has been a very demanding day. D.
Hello D ? I don?t remember meeting you, but I agree with your first and last
sentences. Have a restful night. k
On 10/13/06 6:15 PM, "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote:
> It's funny. Today a client and I met with the opposite side. She told me I
> am too nice and don't have the inutition of how bad the other people are. She
> has an intuition, according to her, of who is being honest and who is a "good"
> person.
> I thought about that on the two hour drive back from the meeting.
> I have fought that kind of intuition, if I ever had it. I don't want to begin
> with the idea someone is cheating or evil (Bush aside--he has given so many
> examples it is beyond intuition.) The idea of Bohm and of collaborative
> learning has directed me to avoid deciding what kind of person a person is.
> Rather look at the actions and talk about them and try to understand the
> grounding of the other one.
> I'm rattling as usual. This has been a very demanding day. D.
>
>
>
> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn Arizmendi
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:10 AM
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
>
> Morning, Rodger -
>
> Thanks for the ?heart? reference.
>
> As for ?intuition? - are you referring to these definitions?
>
> in?tu?i?tion n
> 1. the state of being aware of or knowing something without having to
> discover or perceive it, or the ability to do this
> 2. something known or believed instinctively, without actual evidence for
> it
> 3. immediate knowledge of something
>
> Encarta? World English Dictionary ? 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights
> reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
>
> I get hunches (see the book ?Blink?), but I don?t consider that knowledge.
> And when I get a hunch, possibly a variation on the idea of ?theory?, I don?t
> consider that knowledge in the sense of scientific fact. It is definitely
> something I investigate further.
>
> Also, I?m curious about the subtext of this particular question. I?m sensing
> a little abrasiveness below the surface. Hope I?m wrong.
>
> Best, k
>
>
> On 10/13/06 6:53 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Rodger __Intuition. Are you asking about intuition because you have no
>> personal experience of intuition?
>>
>> Like photographic memory, intuition does not scientifically exist. In
>> science, photographic memory exists only by other names, according to the era
>> you search for it; Eidetic-memory is a present favorite, while
>> Epidetectorial memory was a previous.
>>
>> While intuition may not exist, there are many related areas which do --
>> telekinetic, telepathic, etc.
>>
>> And in fact I do consider the unique neural cell process in the human heart
>> to be part the component of conscience. The trouble is, people always want
>> -knowing- defined according to the brain.
>>
>> To know more about neural cells of the heart: -Basic & Clinical
>> Neurocardiology, J.A. Armour, J.L. Ardell- describes the heart from a purely
>> medical standpoint. _R
>> .
>> .
>> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:34:00 -0400
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: No right brain?
>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>> .
>> Did you and the scientist you worked with define intuition?
>>
>> Where can I find scientific information on ?the hearts own complex neuronal
>> processing and memory capabilities.?
>>
>> What do you mean by ?heart?? For a while, I thought you meant my heart
>> inside my body pumping blood, but I don?t think so now.
>> .
>> .
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Oct 14 04:41:37 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 15 05:39:54 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
References: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695CFECA@msw2k.msw.local>
Message-ID: <002d01c6ef3a$45700a30$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions? -- D.
What about meaning? It seems easy to see that definitions are arbitrary. Is it easy to see that meaning is not, that there is something ultimate about meaning. For example, dark clouds mean rain. Thick bark on the North side of a tree may mean a cold winter is on the way.
Is the meaning of dark clouds as ultimate as is energy and matter? Is the meaning of heavier bark on the North side of a tree as fundamental, as ultimate as matter and energy?
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Dorothy Stulberg
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions? D.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn Arizmendi
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions?
My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will elaborate more when I've sorted out my notes, and have more to take and incorporate today at CCNY.
Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and principles, we will forge a new path.
Hurray! k
On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
I'm in! Let's work with it.
pat
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the meaning?
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment, to use the idea that logos means meaning?
Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance. _R
.
.
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute experience. Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
info:
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 04:42:37 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 05:40:54 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
In-Reply-To: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695CFEC9@msw2k.msw.local>
Message-ID: <C155C6DD.37EA%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that needs
some thoughtful consideration.
Sorry, don't get the "Prissy PhD" stuff.
I can tell when I lose my "self" but often can't stop. I think
it is possible to be in the now even when striving if it is an honest
striving. D.
I agree with this one, but am too tired to elaborate.
G'night. k
On 10/13/06 6:02 PM, "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote:
> Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that needs
> some thoughtful consideration.
> Working on being present in the "now" is worth while. I know when I
> "strive" I lose the moment--it is so easy to do during a trial or even
> during a deposition or even when trying to understand the position of a
> client. I can tell when I lose my "self" but often can't stop. I think
> it is possible to be in the now even when striving if it is an honest
> striving. D.
From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Oct 14 07:04:58 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 15 08:06:11 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
Message-ID: <20061013.220458.1588.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Yes, Dorothy!
Whenever someone declares a similar conviction to me I have a question
that I trot out for them: -
when is a gut feeling an intuition -
and when is it a prejudice?
How would you tell the difference between those two?
I once had to write morals to imaginary fables for a performance art
event. "Hesitate to assign a malicious motive when imaginative
explanations will work."
Ahhh, gotta cut that idea down to come out a little more simply.
Any suggestions? (pat you're good at these sorts of things...)
Maybe from the opposite point of view, coming from the other side, where
someone else makes a snap judgment about you, and then you are forced to
understand and forgive their paranoia.
"Hesitate to assign malice to mere stupidity"?
I think that intuition in me is a feeling that perhaps something else is
happening other than what I assummed was going on. So then I look for it
- and I've learned to not only look for negative paranoia.
Also have a fairly reliable process for self-protection of avoiding
accidents intuitively. I discovered this in myself after a few accidents
happened that I'd "known" were going to happen. I didn't know enough to
know how to interpret the intuitive warning - until I got a little wiser.
Now I recognize them with much more certainty enough to scare others into
taking my advice in those situations.
- Franis
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:15:57 -0400 "Dorothy Stulberg"
<DStulberg@msw-law.com> writes:
> It's funny. Today a client and I met with the opposite side. She
> told
> me I am too nice and don't have the inutition of how bad the other
> people are. She has an intuition, according to her, of who is being
> honest and who is a "good" person.
> I thought about that on the two hour drive back from the meeting.
> I have fought that kind of intuition, if I ever had it. I don't
> want to
> begin with the idea someone is cheating or evil (Bush aside--he has
> given so many examples it is beyond intuition.) The idea of Bohm
> and of
> collaborative learning has directed me to avoid deciding what kind
> of
> person a person is. Rather look at the actions and talk about them
> and
> try to understand the grounding of the other one.
> I'm rattling as usual. This has been a very demanding day. D.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
> Arizmendi
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:10 AM
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
>
>
> Morning, Rodger -
>
> Thanks for the "heart" reference.
>
> As for "intuition" - are you referring to these definitions?
>
> in*tu*i*tion n
> 1. the state of being aware of or knowing something without
> having to
> discover or perceive it, or the ability to do this
> 2. something known or believed instinctively, without actual
> evidence
> for it
> 3. immediate knowledge of something
>
> Encarta(r) World English Dictionary (c) 1999 Microsoft Corporation.
> All
> rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing
> Plc.
>
> I get hunches (see the book "Blink"), but I don't consider that
> knowledge. And when I get a hunch, possibly a variation on the idea
> of
> "theory", I don't consider that knowledge in the sense of scientific
> fact. It is definitely something I investigate further.
>
> Also, I'm curious about the subtext of this particular question.
> I'm
> sensing a little abrasiveness below the surface. Hope I'm wrong.
>
> Best, k
>
>
> On 10/13/06 6:53 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Rodger __Intuition. Are you asking about intuition because
> you
> have no personal experience of intuition?
>
> Like photographic memory, intuition does not scientifically
> exist. In science, photographic memory exists only by other names,
> according to the era you search for it; Eidetic-memory is a present
> favorite, while Epidetectorial memory was a previous.
>
> While intuition may not exist, there are many related areas
> which do -- telekinetic, telepathic, etc.
>
> And in fact I do consider the unique neural cell process in
> the
> human heart to be part the component of conscience. The trouble is,
> people always want -knowing- defined according to the brain.
>
> To know more about neural cells of the heart: -Basic &
> Clinical
> Neurocardiology, J.A. Armour, J.L. Ardell- describes the heart from
> a
> purely medical standpoint. _R
> .
> .
> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:34:00 -0400
> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: No right brain?
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> Did you and the scientist you worked with define intuition?
>
> Where can I find scientific information on "the hearts own
> complex neuronal
> processing and memory capabilities."
>
> What do you mean by "heart"? For a while, I thought you
> meant
> my heart
> inside my body pumping blood, but I don't think so now.
> .
> .
>
> ________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
From donlay at gte.net Sat Oct 14 13:51:54 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 15 14:50:16 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
References: <C155C6DD.37EA%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c6ef87$254ec320$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Dorothy: Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that
needs some thoughtful consideration.
Kathryn: Sorry, don't get the "Prissy PhD" stuff.
Apologies to those holding advanced degrees. Locally we have laughed at
the "prissy interpretation" of the Copenhagen interpretation of qm, namely
that consciousness collapses the wave function, but it "must be the
consciousness of someone holding a PhD in physics" (Jim al Khaleli's book on
qm). We have called that the 'prissy interpretation' of qm. Again,
apology. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
> Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that needs
> some thoughtful consideration.
>
> Sorry, don't get the "Prissy PhD" stuff.
>
>
> I can tell when I lose my "self" but often can't stop. I think
> it is possible to be in the now even when striving if it is an honest
> striving. D.
>
> I agree with this one, but am too tired to elaborate.
>
> G'night. k
>
>
> On 10/13/06 6:02 PM, "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote:
>
>> Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that needs
>> some thoughtful consideration.
>> Working on being present in the "now" is worth while. I know when I
>> "strive" I lose the moment--it is so easy to do during a trial or even
>> during a deposition or even when trying to understand the position of a
>> client. I can tell when I lose my "self" but often can't stop. I think
>> it is possible to be in the now even when striving if it is an honest
>> striving. D.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Sat Oct 14 13:37:40 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 15:03:27 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] LOGOS-Intuition
In-Reply-To: <20061015100002.5D73423C37@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF325D7C89.D567238D-ON85257207.003B51B3-85257207.003FDFAB@dialogos.com>
Rodger __I think that the experience & expression of improv, its unfolding/
enfolding meaning, is intuitive. How do you know what music to play without
sheets, scores, or song compositions predetermined between the musicians?
Of course some styles improv have predetermined boundaries for the music --
thats not what the improve to which I refer.
Similarly, when composing/creating an original piece of music; Does the
composer reason the piece into existance or does the composer TUNE IN to an
inspiration they are receiving of a music they hear within a space of INNER
LISTENING -- receiving.
There intuitive integrity refuses to pass off a technical rearrangement of
works by other composer -- as their own ORIGINAL piece/ inspiration.
Even if no other listener recognized the lack of originality in the
rearrangement -- the composer themself KNOWS when their piece is TRUE to
what they HEARD WITHIN THEMSELVES and thus were inspired to create.
What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this
dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how
the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience
of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
.
From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
We unfold and enfold simultaneously. (pat)
This is improv, too. k
.
.
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Sat Oct 14 14:25:09 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 15:23:37 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
In-Reply-To: <20061015100002.5D73423C37@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF93FBD590.7F9D530E-ON85257207.004024F3-85257207.004438BD@dialogos.com>
Rodger __ Hi Dorothy, welcome back!!
I think intuition is often confused with language in a sense that different
character-types speak/ recognize vocal intonations specific to each
character-type. Generally.
With the exception of circumstances composed of deception -- therefore not
best for telling the truth in -- I find if I DO NOT LIE, I can HEAR more
distinctly when others do not lie. Conversely, the more often I lie, the
more difficult it is to HEAR when others tell the truth.
Or, at least HEAR an indication of the semantic-truth the other person
believes they are telling = language.
I have also found that if I am not BEING TRUSTWORTHY, then I will find it
impossible to know who/ what/ when to TRUST.
Which brings me back to language: To include my awareness of thought &
collaberative learning in my daily interactions, I need to discern how I
use that language of awareness.
Go easy on yourself. If you try to introduce that language as if it were a
universal rule to people who are unfamiliar with it, and expect that they
should somehow recognize the subtlety of it -- the results might become a
bit frustrating. _R
.
From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com>
Subject: RE: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
She has an intuition, according to her, of who is being
honest and who is a "good" person. D.
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Sat Oct 14 14:32:31 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 15:30:59 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061015100002.5D73423C37@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF77CED40A.38B634E8-ON85257207.0044BE22-85257207.0044E551@dialogos.com>
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time.
And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 15:14:20 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 16:12:51 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] LOGOS-Intuition
In-Reply-To: <OF325D7C89.D567238D-ON85257207.003B51B3-85257207.003FDFAB@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C1565AEC.37F3%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Rodger __I think that the experience & expression of improv, its unfolding/
enfolding meaning, is intuitive. How do you know what music to play without
sheets, scores, or song compositions predetermined between the musicians?
Similarly, when composing/creating an original piece of music; Does the
composer reason the piece into existance or does the composer TUNE IN to an
inspiration they are receiving of a music they hear within a space of INNER
LISTENING -- receiving.
Morning, Rodger -
For paragraph #1 ? We undergo rigorous training that enables us to do this
in both through composed and improvised music. On Creativity p, 71 speaks
of reactive thought ?reactive thought is necessary because without it we
would have to reflect on every step...it is an essential side or aspect of
thought as a whole...unless there is an opportunity for reflective thought
to respond beyond the framework of such a mechanical mode of operation, etc,
etc. Musicians say ?I do or don?t have such and such a thing ?under my
fingers??. Sometimes it?s called ?having it on automatic?. One of the
skills ear training puts on automatic is something called ?inner hearing? -
what you call ?inner listening?. As we improvise, in essence, we take
dictation from what we hear, because we have the training that allows us to
do this. Taking dictation is also part of musical training. As is musical
design and architecture. Anyway, that, and many other things go into the
training. Once these abilities/skills are on automatic, my experience is
that what I feel and think turns to sound in my head which flows out my
fingers into the keys. Somewhere, Bohm mentioned that music expresses
emotion. Absolutely ? or in the case of someone like Debussy, it paints a
musical picture. Ex - ?Footprints in the Snow?, ?What the West Wind Saw?,
?La Mer?. Bartok ? Out of Doors Suite. Kinesthesia also plays a part.
Stravinsky talks about sitting down to improvise, and finding his fingers
lead him to a different place than where his reasoning or conscious choice
was headed. On a much less sophisticated level, I have had the same
experience.
#2 ? reason, genius and inspiration play their parts in composed as well as
improvised music. If you look at an analysis of Beethoven?s Fifth Symphony,
and get a good verbal explanation of it that includes the role of motif and
its development, it may clarify what I?m talking about. Or an explanation
and diagram of one of Bach?s fugues. Such strategies are available to the
musician.
Finally, shared knowledge of enfolded structures allows us to play together
without predetermining choices. It requires a lot of training, practice,
and experience, but that?s how it works. There is no fragmentation between
reason and inspiration. They work together at a very deep level.
I tried to explain this from Jerry Coker?s jazz pov some time back. Maybe
together with what I just wrote, it will make more sense. But it may also
be that one has to actually experience this to truly get a handle on it.
Best, k
On 10/14/06 7:37 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> Rodger __I think that the experience & expression of improv, its unfolding/
> enfolding meaning, is intuitive. How do you know what music to play without
> sheets, scores, or song compositions predetermined between the musicians?
>
> Of course some styles improv have predetermined boundaries for the music --
> thats not what the improve to which I refer.
>
> Similarly, when composing/creating an original piece of music; Does the
> composer reason the piece into existance or does the composer TUNE IN to an
> inspiration they are receiving of a music they hear within a space of INNER
> LISTENING -- receiving.
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 15:15:23 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 16:13:46 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <OF77CED40A.38B634E8-ON85257207.0044BE22-85257207.0044E551@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C1565B2B.37F4%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Yes! k
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this
> dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how
> the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of
> MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
> .
> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> .
> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
> prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 15:21:34 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 16:19:57 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
In-Reply-To: <20061013.220458.1588.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C1565C9E.37F6%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
On 10/14/06 1:04 AM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
>> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
>> Arizmendi
Hi Franis - could you please tell me why the heading says "On Behalf of..."?
Also why another post says "resent" with my name?
I've never seen this before, and I'm not sure I want someone to have the
power to send things on my behalf unless I know about it! What's it all
about? Thanks, k
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 15:40:53 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 16:39:21 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <OF77CED40A.38B634E8-ON85257207.0044BE22-85257207.0044E551@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C1566125.37F8%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
I spent the last two days researching improvisation practices and their
history in European music. I am not a poet, but I was so fed up, the words
below had almost completely written themselves by the time the bus got me
home. I offer it as another pov in the discussion we are having.
DIALOG
1,006 years of life measured in semi breves, breves,
metrics, scales ? and in the length of a single breath
bound inside the covers of books, living in the basements of libraries.
Laughter, llanto, cante jondo codified, labelled ?ornaments?;
told by an ?authority? how loud and how long to scream-sob-murmur-and
whisper ?I love you?.
La music es el alma del pueblo y el alma es inmortal!
No, Music, the soul of the people, is fragmented, dissected, ordered ?in
good taste? by psychiatrists, politicians, clergymen, heads of state, and
musicologists ? all well meaning ? as far as they can see. How far is that?
Improvisation is verboten ? it?s too spontaneous! It means freedom. Not
freedom ? anarchy! Then where would be be?
Can you prepare for an improv session? Yes, but you have to strip your
layers down to below flesh and bone, expose the beating heart, throw away
the precise measurements, the dynamic markings in musical scores, and the
?tasteful execution? of ?ornaments?. And above all, plug your ears and eyes
up to the theorist-authorities. And FEEL! Put that in your instrument and
play and sing and dance it.
Can the natural order manifest again? I don?t know. We think theories and
speculations and culturally conditioned prejudices is truth, and have no
idea that?s what we think.
Then I come home and reread:
We unfold and enfold simultaneously. There is nothing else. The "process"
part (regarding self) is hidden from the "outer" senses but not from the
"inner" senses. This is a "self ? aware movement. It is like musical
"movement [where, incidentally, the "outer" senses do perceive the
simultaneity" of unfoldment / enfoldment]. (pat)
I turn to the keyboard.
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this
> dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how
> the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of
> MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
> .
> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> .
> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
> prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Oct 14 15:48:16 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 15 16:46:43 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
References: <C1565B2B.37F4%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005601c6ef97$668a7d10$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Yes! k
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 15:53:35 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 16:52:04 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
In-Reply-To: <001f01c6ef87$254ec320$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Message-ID: <C156641F.37FA%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
No offense taken. After my bout with "authorities" on improvisation in the
library yesterday, plus your explanation, I found myself chuckling. k
On 10/14/06 7:51 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
>
> Dorothy: Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that
> needs some thoughtful consideration.
>
> Kathryn: Sorry, don't get the "Prissy PhD" stuff.
>
> Apologies to those holding advanced degrees. Locally we have laughed at
> the "prissy interpretation" of the Copenhagen interpretation of qm, namely
> that consciousness collapses the wave function, but it "must be the
> consciousness of someone holding a PhD in physics" (Jim al Khaleli's book on
> qm). We have called that the 'prissy interpretation' of qm. Again,
> apology. -- Don L
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
>
>
>> Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that needs
>> some thoughtful consideration.
>>
>> Sorry, don't get the "Prissy PhD" stuff.
>>
>>
>> I can tell when I lose my "self" but often can't stop. I think
>> it is possible to be in the now even when striving if it is an honest
>> striving. D.
>>
>> I agree with this one, but am too tired to elaborate.
>>
>> G'night. k
>>
>>
>> On 10/13/06 6:02 PM, "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Prissy PhD sounds like a real assumption and generalization that needs
>>> some thoughtful consideration.
>>> Working on being present in the "now" is worth while. I know when I
>>> "strive" I lose the moment--it is so easy to do during a trial or even
>>> during a deposition or even when trying to understand the position of a
>>> client. I can tell when I lose my "self" but often can't stop. I think
>>> it is possible to be in the now even when striving if it is an honest
>>> striving. D.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 15:58:53 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 16:57:18 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <005601c6ef97$668a7d10$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Message-ID: <C156655E.37FC%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Gotta think about that one. But off the top of my head, do you feel they
could be related? k
On 10/14/06 9:48 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
> Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the
> Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal
> identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity
> experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness
> to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don
> L
>
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>
>>
>> Yes! k
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
>>> this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time.
>>> And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
>>> experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
>>> .
>>> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
>>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>> .
>>> .
>>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
>>> prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 15:59:36 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 16:58:00 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <005601c6ef97$668a7d10$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Message-ID: <C1566588.37FD%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Is there an ?ultimate experience??
On 10/14/06 9:48 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
> Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the
> Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal
> identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity
> experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness
> to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don
> L
>
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>
>>
>> Yes! k
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
>>> this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time.
>>> And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
>>> experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
>>> .
>>> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
>>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>> .
>>> .
>>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
>>> prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
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>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Oct 14 16:18:00 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 15 17:16:49 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
References: <C156655E.37FC%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001501c6ef9b$8e2d2350$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)Assuming you mean, are meaning and reason related --. Yes. They both derive from the Greek jjword logos (as does dia-logue). That is, Heraclitus' juse of the word, logos, has been interpreted as both reason and meaning. That says they're related, doesn't it?
Also, Bohm says they're related, doesn't he?
Further, in Parmenides/Heraclitus there is no separation. Even thought, thinking is the same as being -- persona is not needed for thinking. I'm understanding 'being' to mean 'the WHOLE'.
Given this then, wouldn't we say the source of creativity, improv, is being itself?
-- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Gotta think about that one. But off the top of my head, do you feel they could be related? k
On 10/14/06 9:48 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Yes! k
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Oct 14 16:20:56 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 15 17:19:20 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
References: <C1566588.37FD%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002401c6ef9b$f7125160$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)Ultimate is defined as foundation and aim or end. Thus, isn't the experience of 'being' ultimate in that being is the foundation of all experience as well as the aim and intention of all experience? -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Is there an "ultimate experience"?
On 10/14/06 9:48 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Yes! k
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Oct 14 16:28:20 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 17:28:02 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.102821.3988.54.ae.dropper@juno.com>
When I look at Meaning as a member of the Matter, Energy, Meaning
"Trinity,"
a very meaningful interpretation in relation to Ultimacy comes easily.
Energy is the first "member" from which Matter [second "member"] proceeds
and Meaning [as the third "member"] "reunites" Energy and Matter. They
are one. The "two" are one. Energy IS Matter. [Einstein was a mystic,
no?] And, the "three" are one. Energy IS Matter IS Meaning. This is
quite meaningful as well.
This generalization of all this translates immediately
to an experience of ultimacy.
This also translates into a general "meaning of life."
And here again, meaning also works well as identical
with my sense of "logos" (as in dia-logos).
Interestingly though, here (in this trinity) "logos" becomes
the third person [member] of the trinity where in the Roman version
"logos" is the "second person {member]."
pat
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? -- D.
What about meaning? It seems easy to see that definitions are arbitrary.
Is it easy to see that meaning is not, that there is something ultimate
about meaning. For example, dark clouds mean rain. Thick bark on the
North side of a tree may mean a cold winter is on the way.
Is the meaning of dark clouds as ultimate as is energy and matter? Is
the meaning of heavier bark on the North side of a tree as fundamental,
as ultimate as matter and energy?
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Dorothy Stulberg
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? D.
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Arizmendi
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions?
My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
elaborate more when I?ve sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
incorporate today at CCNY.
Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
principles, we will forge a new path.
Hurray! k
On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
I'm in! Let's work with it.
pat
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as
meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the
meaning?
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment,
to use the idea that logos means meaning?
Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance,
ratio-ance. _R
.
.
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona
instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute experience.
Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 16:30:10 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 17:28:37 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <002401c6ef9b$f7125160$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Message-ID: <C1566CB2.3800%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
This is a new definition of ?ultimate? for me. I will have to consider its
implications and get back to you. k
On 10/14/06 10:20 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
> Ultimate is defined as foundation and aim or end. Thus, isn't the experience
> of 'being' ultimate in that being is the foundation of all experience as well
> as the aim and intention of all experience? -- Don L
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:59 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>
>>
>> Is there an ?ultimate experience??
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/06 9:48 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the
>>> Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal
>>> identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal
>>> identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that
>>> direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is
>>> being done. -- Don L
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>>>
>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
>>>> (resent)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes! k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
>>>> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
>>>>> this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time.
>>>>> And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
>>>>> experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
>>>>> .
>>>>> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
>>>>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>>>>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>>>>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker
>>>>> bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> info:
>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>
>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
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>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 16:53:31 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 17:51:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061014.102821.3988.54.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C156722B.3803%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
On 10/14/06 10:28 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> This generalization of all this translates immediately
> to an experience of ultimacy.
>
> I?m with you up to the point of ?ultimacy?. Do you mean it as ?most perfect
> underlying reality?? k
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Oct 14 17:09:16 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:08:30 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.110924.3988.58.ae.dropper@juno.com>
The coherence and creativity in the dialoguing of recent days
seems quite unusual.
pat
From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Oct 14 16:50:41 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:08:31 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
Message-ID: <20061014.110924.3988.56.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Also why another post says "resent" with my name? (k)
The "re-sent's" were a part of the "testing" I was doing
yesterday. Since you responded to one of my posts with this
in the subject line, it remained in the subject line.
pat
From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Oct 14 17:06:34 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:08:34 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.110924.3988.57.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Interesting here, that old cliche "The means are the end."
How about "The meanings are the end."
pat
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:20:56 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
Ultimate is defined as foundation and aim or end. Thus, isn't the
experience of 'being' ultimate in that being is the foundation of all
experience as well as the aim and intention of all experience? -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
(resent)
Is there an ?ultimate experience??
On 10/14/06 9:48 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the
Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal
identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal
identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that
direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it
is being done. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
(resent)
Yes! k
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
<Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time.
And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker
bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
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Administrator of the mailing list:
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 17:17:05 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:15:30 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
In-Reply-To: <20061014.110924.3988.56.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C15677B1.3807%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
ok. thanks. k
On 10/14/06 10:50 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> Also why another post says "resent" with my name? (k)
>
> The "re-sent's" were a part of the "testing" I was doing
> yesterday. Since you responded to one of my posts with this
> in the subject line, it remained in the subject line.
>
> pat
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 17:18:20 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:16:45 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061014.110924.3988.58.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C15677FC.3808%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Again, consonant with my sense of beauty, Pat. I hope everyone is enjoying
it as much as I. k
On 10/14/06 11:09 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> The coherence and creativity in the dialoguing of recent days
> seems quite unusual.
>
> pat
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 17:19:32 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:17:58 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061014.110924.3988.57.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C1567844.3809%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Touche!
On 10/14/06 11:06 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> Interesting here, that old cliche "The means are the end."
> How about "The meanings are the end."
>
> pat
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:20:56 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>>
>> Ultimate is defined as foundation and aim or end. Thus, isn't the
>> experience of 'being' ultimate in that being is the foundation of all
>> experience as well as the aim and intention of all experience? -- Don L
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>>
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:59 AM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there an ?ultimate experience??
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/14/06 9:48 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the
>>>> Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal
>>>> identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal
>>>> identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that
>>>> direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is
>>>> being done. -- Don L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
>>>>> (resent)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes! k
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
>>>>> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the
>>>>>> way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in
>>>>>> time. And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what
>>>>>> takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
>>>>>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>>>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>>>>>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>>>>>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker
>>>>>> bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> info:
>>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>>
>>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> info:
>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>
>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Oct 14 17:22:50 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:23:05 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.112431.3988.60.ae.dropper@juno.com>
This generalization of all this translates immediately
to an experience of ultimacy.
I?m with you up to the point of ?ultimacy?. Do you mean it as ?most
perfect underlying reality?? k
Have to look at the context to see what I may have meant (so I re-pasted
it below), but I have no problem with ?most perfect underlying reality.?
What I said had referred to don L's "there is something ultimate about
meaning."
pat
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:53:31 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
On 10/14/06 10:28 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
This generalization of all this translates immediately
to an experience of ultimacy.
I?m with you up to the point of ?ultimacy?. Do you mean it as ?most
perfect underlying reality?? k
When I look at Meaning as a member of the Matter, Energy, Meaning
"Trinity," a very meaningful interpretation in relation to Ultimacy comes
easily. Energy is the first "member" from which Matter [second "member"]
proceeds and Meaning [as the third "member"] "reunites" Energy and
Matter. They are one. The "two" are one. Energy IS Matter. [Einstein was
a mystic, no?] And, the "three" are one. Energy IS Matter IS Meaning.
This is quite meaningful as well.
This generalization of all this translates immediately
to an experience of ultimacy.
This also translates into a general "meaning of life."
And here again, meaning also works well as identical
with my sense of "logos" (as in dia-logos).
Interestingly though, here (in this trinity) "logos" becomes
the third person [member] of the trinity where in the Roman version
"logos" is the "second person {member]."
pat
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? -- D.
What about meaning? It seems easy to see that definitions are arbitrary.
Is it easy to see that meaning is not, that there is something ultimate
about meaning. For example, dark clouds mean rain. Thick bark on the
North side of a tree may mean a cold winter is on the way.
Is the meaning of dark clouds as ultimate as is energy and matter? Is
the meaning of heavier bark on the North side of a tree as fundamental,
as ultimate as matter and energy?
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Dorothy Stulberg
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? D.
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Arizmendi
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions?
My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
elaborate more when I?ve sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
incorporate today at CCNY.
Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
principles, we will forge a new path.
Hurray! k
On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
I'm in! Let's work with it.
pat
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as
meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the
meaning?
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment,
to use the idea that logos means meaning?
Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance,
ratio-ance. _R
..
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
..
It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona
instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute experience.
Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 17:32:26 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:30:54 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061014.112431.3988.60.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C1567B4A.380C%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Time out ? I thinking! k
On 10/14/06 11:22 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> What I said had referred to don L's "there is something ultimate about
>> meaning."
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 17:43:03 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:41:30 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061014.112431.3988.60.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C1567DC7.380E%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
OK ? in the sense of ?most perfect underlying reality?, it works for me. In
the sense of ?final?, it doesn?t. I don?t think it?s likely, or even
possible to get to ?final?.
He also says:
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
I would reply birth, death, life, and all things unknown aka the rhythm of
being ? in the parameters of the above definition. k
On 10/14/06 11:22 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>> This generalization of all this translates immediately
>> to an experience of ultimacy.
>>
>> I?m with you up to the point of ?ultimacy?. Do you mean it as ?most perfect
>> underlying reality?? k
>>
>> Have to look at the context to see what I may have meant (so I re-pasted it
>> below), but I have no problem with ?most perfect underlying reality.?
>>
>>
>>
>> What I said had referred to don L's "there is something ultimate about
>> meaning."
>>
>>
>>
>> pat
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:53:31 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> writes:
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/06 10:28 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>
> This generalization of all this translates immediately
> to an experience of ultimacy.
>
> I?m with you up to the point of ?ultimacy?. Do you mean it as ?most perfect
> underlying reality?? k
>
>
> When I look at Meaning as a member of the Matter, Energy, Meaning "Trinity,"
> a very meaningful interpretation in relation to Ultimacy comes easily. Energy
> is the first "member" from which Matter [second "member"] proceeds and
> Meaning [as the third "member"] "reunites" Energy and Matter. They are one.
> The "two" are one. Energy IS Matter. [Einstein was a mystic, no?] And, the
> "three" are one. Energy IS Matter IS Meaning. This is quite meaningful as
> well.
>
>
>
> This generalization of all this translates immediately
>
> to an experience of ultimacy.
>
>
>
> This also translates into a general "meaning of life."
>
> And here again, meaning also works well as identical
>
> with my sense of "logos" (as in dia-logos).
>
>
>
> Interestingly though, here (in this trinity) "logos" becomes
>
> the third person [member] of the trinity where in the Roman version
>
> "logos" is the "second person {member]."
>
>
>
> pat
>
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>
>>
>>
>> is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions?
>> -- D.
>>
>>
>> What about meaning? It seems easy to see that definitions are arbitrary.
>> Is it easy to see that meaning is not, that there is something ultimate
>> about meaning. For example, dark clouds mean rain. Thick bark on the
>> North side of a tree may mean a cold winter is on the way.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the meaning of dark clouds as ultimate as is energy and matter? Is the
>> meaning of heavier bark on the North side of a tree as fundamental, as
>> ultimate as matter and energy?
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>>
>>
>>
>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
>> prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Dorothy Stulberg <mailto:DStulberg@msw-law.com>
>>>
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>
>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:05 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions?
>>> D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
>>> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
>>> Arizmendi
>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
>>> definitions?
>>>
>>> My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
>>> elaborate more when I?ve sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
>>> incorporate today at CCNY.
>>>
>>> Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
>>> principles, we will forge a new path.
>>>
>>> Hurray! k
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm in! Let's work with it.
>>>>
>>>> pat
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as
>>>>> meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the
>>>>> meaning?
>>>>>
>>>>> Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
>>>>> definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment,
>>>>> to use the idea that logos means meaning?
>>>>>
>>>>> Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
>>>>> terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
>>>>>
>>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance,
>>>>> ratio-ance. _R
>>>>> ..
>>>>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
>>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>> ..
>>>>> It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona
>>>>> instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute experience.
>>>>> Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
>>>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 14 17:57:45 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:56:13 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061014.102821.3988.54.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C1568139.3810%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
In music, we have what Mathieu calls ?Three Chord Music?. The tonic as
monad, which oddly enough, was (in overtone structure) begat in the overtone
series by the Subdominant aka fourth tone of the scale (a folded over
structure of overtones), and the Dominant, the fifth tone. The Tonic is
balance and hozhoon, the Subdominant is aptly called ?ma? in Indian (not
American) theory and is Yin, the Dominant is ?Pa? - the most aggressive,
dissonant, and Yang of the scale tones. That progression I < IV < V > I is
the basis of all music, and enfolded into the scale.
I?ve tucked that plus your ?Trinity? into my body-mind computer, to see what
connections may be there. Dialog would be welcome and appreciated on that
topic. k
On 10/14/06 10:28 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> When I look at Meaning as a member of the Matter, Energy, Meaning "Trinity,"
> a very meaningful interpretation in relation to Ultimacy comes easily. Energy
> is the first "member" from which Matter [second "member"] proceeds and Meaning
> [as the third "member"] "reunites" Energy and Matter. They are one. The "two"
> are one. Energy IS Matter. [Einstein was a mystic, no?] And, the "three" are
> one. Energy IS Matter IS Meaning. This is quite meaningful as well.
>
> This generalization of all this translates immediately
> to an experience of ultimacy.
>
> This also translates into a general "meaning of life."
> And here again, meaning also works well as identical
> with my sense of "logos" (as in dia-logos).
>
> Interestingly though, here (in this trinity) "logos" becomes
> the third person [member] of the trinity where in the Roman version
> "logos" is the "second person {member]."
>
> pat
>
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>>
>>
>> is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions?
>> -- D.
>>
>>
>> What about meaning? It seems easy to see that definitions are arbitrary.
>> Is it easy to see that meaning is not, that there is something ultimate
>> about meaning. For example, dark clouds mean rain. Thick bark on the
>> North side of a tree may mean a cold winter is on the way.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the meaning of dark clouds as ultimate as is energy and matter? Is the
>> meaning of heavier bark on the North side of a tree as fundamental, as
>> ultimate as matter and energy?
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>>
>>
>>
>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
>> prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Dorothy Stulberg <mailto:DStulberg@msw-law.com>
>>>
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>
>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:05 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions?
>>> D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
>>> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
>>> Arizmendi
>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
>>> definitions?
>>>
>>> My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
>>> elaborate more when I?ve sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
>>> incorporate today at CCNY.
>>>
>>> Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
>>> principles, we will forge a new path.
>>>
>>> Hurray! k
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm in! Let's work with it.
>>>>
>>>> pat
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as
>>>>> meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the
>>>>> meaning?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
>>>>> definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment,
>>>>> to use the idea that logos means meaning?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
>>>>> terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance,
>>>>>> ratio-ance. _R
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
>>>>>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona
>>>>>> instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute
>>>>>> experience. Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Oct 14 17:59:17 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sun Oct 15 18:58:50 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.115931.3988.62.ae.dropper@juno.com>
The beauty of this (of "ultimacy" as "finality") is
that within the "original" question was this [context below] query:
"Could it possibly mean that words have
temporary and arbitrary definitions?"
Is there a sense of "ultimacy" that doesn't
intend "finality."
As I ask, a sense comes of "ultimacy" as "the
ongoing and absolute absence of "finality."
(I am in love with the "aliveness" of words).
pat
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:43:03 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
OK ? in the sense of ?most perfect underlying reality?, it works for me.
In the sense of ?final?, it doesn?t. I don?t think it?s likely, or even
possible to get to ?final?.
He also says:
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
I would reply birth, death, life, and all things unknown aka the rhythm
of being ? in the parameters of the above definition. k
On 10/14/06 11:22 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
This generalization of all this translates immediately
to an experience of ultimacy.
I?m with you up to the point of ?ultimacy?. Do you mean it as ?most
perfect underlying reality?? k
Have to look at the context to see what I may have meant (so I re-pasted
it below), but I have no problem with ?most perfect underlying
reality.?
What I said had referred to don L's "there is something ultimate about
meaning."
pat
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:53:31 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
On 10/14/06 10:28 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
This generalization of all this translates immediately
to an experience of ultimacy.
I?m with you up to the point of ?ultimacy?. Do you mean it as ?most
perfect underlying reality?? k
When I look at Meaning as a member of the Matter, Energy, Meaning
"Trinity," a very meaningful interpretation in relation to Ultimacy comes
easily. Energy is the first "member" from which Matter [second "member"]
proceeds and Meaning [as the third "member"] "reunites" Energy and
Matter. They are one. The "two" are one. Energy IS Matter. [Einstein was
a mystic, no?] And, the "three" are one. Energy IS Matter IS Meaning.
This is quite meaningful as well.
This generalization of all this translates immediately
to an experience of ultimacy.
This also translates into a general "meaning of life."
And here again, meaning also works well as identical
with my sense of "logos" (as in dia-logos).
Interestingly though, here (in this trinity) "logos" becomes
the third person [member] of the trinity where in the Roman version
"logos" is the "second person {member]."
pat
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? -- D.
What about meaning? It seems easy to see that definitions are
arbitrary. Is it easy to see that meaning is not, that there is
something ultimate about meaning. For example, dark clouds mean rain.
Thick bark on the North side of a tree may mean a cold winter is on the
way.
Is the meaning of dark clouds as ultimate as is energy and matter? Is
the meaning of heavier bark on the North side of a tree as fundamental,
as ultimate as matter and energy?
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker
bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Dorothy Stulberg <mailto:DStulberg@msw-law.com>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? D.
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Arizmendi
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions?
My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
elaborate more when I?ve sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
incorporate today at CCNY.
Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
principles, we will forge a new path.
Hurray! k
On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
I'm in! Let's work with it.
pat
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as
meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the
meaning?
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment,
to use the idea that logos means meaning?
Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-anc