From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 00:13:38 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:18:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F1533ECE6751BD5747E75B7A5EB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F1533ECE6751BD5747E75B7A5EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FCE845AD-EB30-4096-B735-E230B7D9BD3E@dc.rr.com>
On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> Oops, this is a really long post. Should it have been shortened? k
>
Yes, it has three info's at the end nor to mention copies of earlier
messages that the
recipients already have in their inboxes.
don
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 00:17:11 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:22:15 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way
In-Reply-To: <FCE845AD-EB30-4096-B735-E230B7D9BD3E@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F509754E4FB35C069E9B1EA5EB0@phx.gbl>
It would be helpful to me if you indicate at what point it should have
happened. I don't have any way to gauge size on hotmail, and I can use that
as an example. I have to estimate, and I suspect others did too, since I
only added a couple of words. Thanks, k
>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:13:38 -0800
>
>
>On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
>>Oops, this is a really long post. Should it have been shortened? k
>>
>Yes, it has three info's at the end nor to mention copies of earlier
>messages that the
>recipients already have in their inboxes.
>don
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
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From admin at david-bohm.net Wed Nov 15 00:18:15 2006
From: admin at david-bohm.net (dialogue-admin)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:23:20 2006
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
References: <BAY22-F24A62FA1A4799E9AFBA533A5EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <455A4EB7.000001.05164@VAIO-584793128F>
From: Morgan Jett
>What happened to the earlier archives, William or Don?
>I gather BD has been around since 1992 or 3. k
we didn't want an archive back then. Last year around this time there was
talk about whether or not we should activate the archive. I checked it out
to see if it would work in case we decided to switch it on. It worked but I
forgot to switch it off again. Ever since we have the archive running
without knowing it.
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 00:23:27 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:28:30 2006
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
In-Reply-To: <455A4EB7.000001.05164@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F192390DE2869AA7992E0D7A5EB0@phx.gbl>
Thanks for the reply. I learned so much about dialog from today's browsing,
that I'd really like to read others. It would seem that the closer they are
to when Bohm was alive, the more valuable they would be to Bohm history. Do
let us know when they're available.
I noticed today's are up, and it amazed me, because I have trouble keeping
my Inbox clear! k
>From: "dialogue-admin" <admin@david-bohm.net>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam] [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
>Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:18:15 +0100 (Westeuropäische Normalzeit)
>
>
>
>From: Morgan Jett
> >What happened to the earlier archives, William or Don?
> >I gather BD has been around since 1992 or 3. k
>
>we didn't want an archive back then. Last year around this time there was
>talk about whether or not we should activate the archive. I checked it out
>to see if it would work in case we decided to switch it on. It worked but I
>forgot to switch it off again. Ever since we have the archive running
>without knowing it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
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From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 00:27:07 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:32:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F17136F4A240CAE31AD5CA6A5EB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F17136F4A240CAE31AD5CA6A5EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8F40E09B-661A-4519-8984-DC5CC2DD7F25@dc.rr.com>
Yes, picture writing preceded separate icons in "written" language.
But I wonder if people didn't talk together before they learned how
to record it.
Hieroglyphs were early forms of writing and each glyph had a
conceptual meaning. Later, it would appear, that the need for greater
clarity or specificity required "letters" of some sort to accomplish
the required ends. After all, rock art and carving clay tablets took
a lot of work, and there wasn't much room for making mistakes. I
mean, typewriters in the pre-word processing era - for those of you
who remember them - were a pain.
You would type out a whole page and then your finger would slip and
you would have to type the whole thing out again.
So, yes, images are valuable but only for very general statements
unless they are symbols that contain previously shared meanings, like
a crucifix for example. And they remain ambiguous. The notorious dead
cut in half dead woman's body has since become an icon for a
Hollywood movie about the murder of that woman. This has taken some
of the charge out of it, but that's only when it is seen in the
context of the movie. So even pictures are context dependent. The
rest is imagination.
Thus endeth today's lesson
don
On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> I don't dream in words, and I have a theory that dream images
> indicate the body's natural capacity to produce symbols for
> thought. Remember Arnheim's "Visual Thinking"? And so-called "rock
> art", and teepee decorations? They aren't "decorations". They are
> language. I have books of them down in storage. k
>
>
>> From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:43:00 -0800
>>
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:35 AM, Don Lay wrote:
>>
>>> Seems to me what Bohm says of thought in TAS can and should be
>>> applied to language.
>>
>> This is a topic that I think calls for a lot more inquiry. I
>> would say that TAS in the sense that
>> you use it here applies primarily to language. But are there forms
>> of thought that don't depend
>> on words or combinations of words? Is there such a thing as
>> nonconceptual thought? I think
>> so, but I don't know how to expand on this, since I have to use
>> words.
>>
>> don
>>
>
From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 00:30:53 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:36:01 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F24A62FA1A4799E9AFBA533A5EB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F24A62FA1A4799E9AFBA533A5EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <D96314F1-DDD0-49D5-8B1A-2522DE4D9F8C@dc.rr.com>
I don't know if they still exist. After we closed down and started a
new list William blocked any access to them. Only later when some of
us wanted them, they were re-opened for list-member use. But the
older ones might have been lost. I have some of the earlier ones but
they are not at all complete and are organised in a way that I can
only use them when I want to look up a particular word or phrase.
But William may know more
don
On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> It was a privilege to read last year's posts. So interesting, the
> same topics we're dialoging now were being dialogued then, and by
> some of the same people. There were some particularly beautiful ones.
>
> What happened to the earlier archives, William or Don? I gather BD
> has been around since 1992 or 3. k
>
From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 15 00:28:40 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:38:46 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] teacherly
Message-ID: <20061114.152841.1408.6.franis_franis@juno.com>
Yeah, guess that would mean that (Morgan) k is even more teacherly. She's
awfully persistent. ;o)
I used to think that I wasn't persistent, then I realized I have the kind
of persistence that keeps circling back around, rather than the kind that
keeps pushing and repeating.
- Franis
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:43:49 -0500 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
>
>
>
> Rodger__Hmm, maybe I'm just too old but I have never had an
> impression that
> Susan or Franis used their diction to teach me something -- in
> dialogue.
>
> Yes, they tend to express perspectives with some passion and
> enthusiasm, or
> even sometimes explain themselves with zeal. But if I am ever too
> dumb or
> stubborn to actually understand what they hope to share, it seems
> they are
> always very quick to let the -lesson- GO. Which I think is very
> UN-teacherly of them. _R
> .
> .
> From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] teacherly
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> .
> What if the way you want to come across in the way you mean to
> communicate
> isn't "teacherly"? Franis
> .
> .=
From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 15 00:25:22 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:38:47 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
Message-ID: <20061114.152841.1408.5.franis_franis@juno.com>
concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more images
below in the context of the questions...
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
writes:
> Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a roadblock
What would a mental image that
>
> precedes words look like?
an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a newspaper
of words.
For instance, what would my sentence below
>
> look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they were
>
> about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
> > don
Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things," which
are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push into the
coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories of the
people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns, like a
coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of memories,
like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try on...
Franis
>
> On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:04 PM, Susan Clemons wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that you have left out a step. We actually
> > represent the concept to ourselves in our imagination first
> > (through a construct of memories) and then assign a word to
> > represent what we hold in our imagination. That's what NLP helped
>
> > me to understand about thought and how we structure our thoughts
> > and the connection between thoughts (mental imaginings that
> include
> > all five of our senses) and language.
> >
> > Susan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: donald factor
> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 14, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Susan Clemons wrote:
> >
> >
> > I would say that the words are not the concept, they are only
>
> > the symbols we use to represent the concept
> >
> >
> > This may be the case, but what is the difference? What is a
> > concept that is unrepresented?
> > Of course individual words generally have to be strung together
>
> > to represent a concept but concepts are what is communicated. No?
> > don
> >
From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 00:38:17 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:43:26 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F509754E4FB35C069E9B1EA5EB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F509754E4FB35C069E9B1EA5EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8A41FF25-D2A0-4FEE-B696-186EA4CE033E@dc.rr.com>
This has two info's at the bottom. I have removed them from this
reply and just left the post that you responded to. Si just scroll
down and see what is directly relevant to your reply. If it has been
copied before by you or someone else and then scrub it. If you have
some reason to want to keep whole threads together you might do well
to copy them onto a text file and keep them in a separate folder
That's what I sometimes do.. As for number of KBs, just so long as
the post is less than 100 the post will go through. Often it is just
laziness. I have often been guilty of that and have had posts refused
for the same reason.
don
On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:17 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> It would be helpful to me if you indicate at what point it should
> have happened. I don't have any way to gauge size on hotmail, and
> I can use that as an example. I have to estimate, and I suspect
> others did too, since I only added a couple of words. Thanks, k
>
>
>
>
>> From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way
>> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:13:38 -0800
>>
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>>
>>> Oops, this is a really long post. Should it have been shortened? k
>>>
>> Yes, it has three info's at the end nor to mention copies of
>> earlier messages that the
>> recipients already have in their inboxes.
>> don
>
From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 15 00:36:46 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:46:19 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
Message-ID: <20061114.153648.1408.7.franis_franis@juno.com>
I still have some from '05 and '04 and pre...I guess I could convert them
to a file and send that to you, k. - Franis
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:30:53 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
writes:
> I don't know if they still exist. After we closed down and started a
>
> new list William blocked any access to them. Only later when some of
>
> us wanted them, they were re-opened for list-member use. But the
> older ones might have been lost. I have some of the earlier ones but
>
> they are not at all complete and are organised in a way that I can
> only use them when I want to look up a particular word or phrase.
>
> But William may know more
>
> don
> On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
> > It was a privilege to read last year's posts. So interesting, the
>
> > same topics we're dialoging now were being dialogued then, and by
>
> > some of the same people. There were some particularly beautiful
> ones.
> >
> > What happened to the earlier archives, William or Don? I gather
> BD
> > has been around since 1992 or 3. k
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 00:43:17 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:48:19 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
In-Reply-To: <20061114.152841.1408.5.franis_franis@juno.com>
References: <20061114.152841.1408.5.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <AE25C2F5-2798-4AC8-9756-A5EB3A4350FB@dc.rr.com>
On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:25 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
> concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more images
> below in the context of the questions...
>
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
> writes:
>> Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
>
> image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a roadblock
>
>
> What would a mental image that
>>
>> precedes words look like?
>
> an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a
> newspaper
> of words.
>
> For instance, what would my sentence below
>>
>> look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they were
>>
>> about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
>>> don
>
> Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things," which
> are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
> coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push
> into the
> coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories
> of the
> people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns,
> like a
> coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
>
> ...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of
> memories,
> like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try on...
>
>
> Franis
So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is would
it be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a
closet?
don
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 00:47:49 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:52:56 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
In-Reply-To: <8F40E09B-661A-4519-8984-DC5CC2DD7F25@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F153002A0A876DD973823F1A5EB0@phx.gbl>
D: But I wonder if people didn't talk together before they learned how to
record it.
K: Absolutely. And Curt Sachs says that music and dance possibly preceeded
speech.
D: You would type out a whole page and then your finger would slip and
>you would have to type the whole thing out again.
K. That was the composer's delimma before whiteout and Finale (computer
software)! Awful!!!
D: . So even pictures are context dependent. The rest is imagination.
K: All symbols have to have meaning, and meaning is context dependent. I'm
not saying to throw away words and just use images. My experiment is seeing
at what place they reinforce, amplify, intersect, or say more than words
can. Words can't describe my feelings on seeing sunset in the Grand Canyon.
And maybe I don't want you to clone my experience. I want you to feel
your own feelings for it. Then in a moment of shared silence, we
communicate wordlessly. Something like that can be more powerful and more
bonding than words. Where did the saying "a picture is worth a thousand
words" come from?
The picture of Christ with the crown of thorns that I held after my mother
beat me when I was 7 went so deep into my deep mind, I didn't even remember
it until I got onlist. That image put me and Christ against everybody in
the world who would hurt another person, animal or plant. I suspect your
"mum" image of me hooked into that, and thanks for bringing it up, btw. Now
I wonder if it's fair to think that all people in helping professions have a
little of the "mum" and "dad" in them. And further, if and or when that's a
bad thing, really. Because at the time you said it, I think you were a bit
annoyed with me. k
>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:27:07 -0800
>
>Yes, picture writing preceded separate icons in "written" language. But I
>wonder if people didn't talk together before they learned how to record
>it.
>Hieroglyphs were early forms of writing and each glyph had a conceptual
>meaning. Later, it would appear, that the need for greater clarity or
>specificity required "letters" of some sort to accomplish the required
>ends. After all, rock art and carving clay tablets took a lot of work, and
>there wasn't much room for making mistakes. I mean, typewriters in the
>pre-word processing era - for those of you who remember them - were a
>pain.
>You would type out a whole page and then your finger would slip and you
>would have to type the whole thing out again.
>
>So, yes, images are valuable but only for very general statements unless
>they are symbols that contain previously shared meanings, like a crucifix
>for example. And they remain ambiguous. The notorious dead cut in half
>dead woman's body has since become an icon for a Hollywood movie about the
>murder of that woman. This has taken some of the charge out of it, but
>that's only when it is seen in the context of the movie. So even pictures
>are context dependent. The rest is imagination.
>
>Thus endeth today's lesson
>
>don
>
>
>On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
>>I don't dream in words, and I have a theory that dream images indicate
>>the body's natural capacity to produce symbols for thought. Remember
>>Arnheim's "Visual Thinking"? And so-called "rock art", and teepee
>>decorations? They aren't "decorations". They are language. I have
>>books of them down in storage. k
>>
>>
>>>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:43:00 -0800
>>>
>>>
>>>On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:35 AM, Don Lay wrote:
>>>
>>>> Seems to me what Bohm says of thought in TAS can and should be
>>>>applied to language.
>>>
>>>This is a topic that I think calls for a lot more inquiry. I would say
>>>that TAS in the sense that
>>>you use it here applies primarily to language. But are there forms of
>>>thought that don't depend
>>>on words or combinations of words? Is there such a thing as
>>>nonconceptual thought? I think
>>>so, but I don't know how to expand on this, since I have to use words.
>>>
>>>don
>>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 15 00:52:04 2006
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Nov 16 01:57:20 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
References: <20061114.152841.1408.5.franis_franis@juno.com>
<AE25C2F5-2798-4AC8-9756-A5EB3A4350FB@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <018d01c70847$ea2c23d0$b178480c@HOME>
The images aren't about communicating Don, they're about understanding thought as a system. That's how it works before (and maybe under?) the words. Those imaginings that Franis was describing is her own system of thoughts that the words represent to her. So to my way of thinking, if you really want to look at thought as a system then our private imaginings and memories are a necessary ingredient to look at. Learning how to talk about them and describe them to each other can be very helpful.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:25 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more images
below in the context of the questions...
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
writes:
Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a roadblock
What would a mental image that
precedes words look like?
an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a newspaper
of words.
For instance, what would my sentence below
look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they were
about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
don
Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things," which
are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push into the
coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories of the
people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns, like a
coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of memories,
like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try on...
Franis
So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is would it be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a closet?
don
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 01:10:15 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:15:18 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
In-Reply-To: <018d01c70847$ea2c23d0$b178480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F16C760D3E0AE14032D0CBEA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Nice amplification, Susan. I hadn't even thought of that, but that's at the
bottom of the problem that readymade images from Google reflect typecasting
cultural assumptions. k
>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:52:04 -0700
>
>The images aren't about communicating Don, they're about understanding
>thought as a system. That's how it works before (and maybe under?) the
>words. Those imaginings that Franis was describing is her own system of
>thoughts that the words represent to her. So to my way of thinking, if you
>really want to look at thought as a system then our private imaginings and
>memories are a necessary ingredient to look at. Learning how to talk about
>them and describe them to each other can be very helpful.
>
>Susan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: donald factor
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:25 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
>
>
> concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more images
>
> below in the context of the questions...
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>
> writes:
>
> Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
>
>
>
>
> image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a roadblock
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What would a mental image that
>
>
>
>
> precedes words look like?
>
>
>
>
> an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a
>newspaper
>
> of words.
>
>
>
>
> For instance, what would my sentence below
>
>
>
>
> look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they were
>
>
>
>
> about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
>
> don
>
>
>
>
> Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things," which
>
> are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
>
> coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push into
>the
>
> coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories of
>the
>
> people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns, like
>a
>
> coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
>
>
>
>
> ...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of
>memories,
>
> like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try on...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Franis
>
> So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
>rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
>
> but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is would it
>be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a closet?
>
>
> don
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best
route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 15 01:17:10 2006
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:22:22 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
References: <BAY22-F16C760D3E0AE14032D0CBEA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <019701c7084b$68156330$b178480c@HOME>
You'll find this is a subject I have been trying to talk about with this
group for a very long time and keep hitting a brick wall (particularly with
Don F.). The course I took in NLP was all about how to look at thoughts
that are not words and perceive their system and create changes by changing
the thoughts that are not words. Dream groups do the same thing. They help
us to look at our thoughts that are not words and see the association to
meaning and words. To my way of thinking for anyone who seriously wants to
look at thought as a system this is where you begin.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com>
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
> Nice amplification, Susan. I hadn't even thought of that, but that's at
> the bottom of the problem that readymade images from Google reflect
> typecasting cultural assumptions. k
>
>
>>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:52:04 -0700
>>
>>The images aren't about communicating Don, they're about understanding
>>thought as a system. That's how it works before (and maybe under?) the
>>words. Those imaginings that Franis was describing is her own system of
>>thoughts that the words represent to her. So to my way of thinking, if
>>you really want to look at thought as a system then our private imaginings
>>and memories are a necessary ingredient to look at. Learning how to talk
>>about them and describe them to each other can be very helpful.
>>
>>Susan
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: donald factor
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:25 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
>>
>>
>> concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more
>> images
>>
>> below in the context of the questions...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>>
>> writes:
>>
>> Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a roadblock
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What would a mental image that
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> precedes words look like?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a
>> newspaper
>>
>> of words.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For instance, what would my sentence below
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they
>> were
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
>>
>> don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things,"
>> which
>>
>> are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
>>
>> coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push into
>> the
>>
>> coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories of
>> the
>>
>> people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns,
>> like a
>>
>> coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of
>> memories,
>>
>> like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try on...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Franis
>>
>> So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
>> rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
>>
>> but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is would
>> it be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a
>> closet?
>>
>>
>> don
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more.then map the best
> route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 15 01:18:16 2006
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:23:22 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Clipping posts
References: <BAY22-F16C760D3E0AE14032D0CBEA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <019a01c7084b$8cc245e0$b178480c@HOME>
And I've been forgetting to clip my posts also. Sorry about that. It seems
like I remember it just about the time I hit the send button.
Susan
From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 01:21:33 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:26:36 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
In-Reply-To: <019701c7084b$68156330$b178480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F2469A42E6A7CB5EC6B7C8AA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Well, I'll be happy to dialog with you, and anyone else who wants to give it
a try. Sometimes it takes setting an example to get the ball really moving.
Images of a certain size are allowed. It'll be a little crude to start
with because I've just begun, but watching the process of thought was
something Bohm was about. And those who don't want to deal with it can hit
the delete button. Nobody has to play "mum" for them. k
>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:17:10 -0700
>
>You'll find this is a subject I have been trying to talk about with this
>group for a very long time and keep hitting a brick wall (particularly with
>Don F.). The course I took in NLP was all about how to look at thoughts
>that are not words and perceive their system and create changes by changing
>the thoughts that are not words. Dream groups do the same thing. They
>help us to look at our thoughts that are not words and see the association
>to meaning and words. To my way of thinking for anyone who seriously wants
>to look at thought as a system this is where you begin.
>
>Susan
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com>
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:10 PM
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>
>
>>Nice amplification, Susan. I hadn't even thought of that, but that's at
>>the bottom of the problem that readymade images from Google reflect
>>typecasting cultural assumptions. k
>>
>>
>>>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:52:04 -0700
>>>
>>>The images aren't about communicating Don, they're about understanding
>>>thought as a system. That's how it works before (and maybe under?) the
>>>words. Those imaginings that Franis was describing is her own system of
>>>thoughts that the words represent to her. So to my way of thinking, if
>>>you really want to look at thought as a system then our private
>>>imaginings and memories are a necessary ingredient to look at. Learning
>>>how to talk about them and describe them to each other can be very
>>>helpful.
>>>
>>>Susan
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: donald factor
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:25 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more
>>>images
>>>
>>> below in the context of the questions...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>>>
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a roadblock
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What would a mental image that
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> precedes words look like?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a
>>>newspaper
>>>
>>> of words.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For instance, what would my sentence below
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they
>>>were
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
>>>
>>> don
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things,"
>>>which
>>>
>>> are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
>>>
>>> coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push into
>>>the
>>>
>>> coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories of
>>>the
>>>
>>> people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns,
>>>like a
>>>
>>> coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of
>>>memories,
>>>
>>> like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try on...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Franis
>>>
>>> So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
>>>rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
>>>
>>> but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is would
>>>it be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a
>>>closet?
>>>
>>>
>>> don
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>info:
>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more.then map the best
>>route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip
http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001
From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 15 01:26:40 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:35:52 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] no endless quotes
Message-ID: <20061114.162641.1408.8.franis_franis@juno.com>
the trick is to not use the "quote" feature when you reply. You need to
configure it in the email options portion of your hotmail account.
As you are reading the post, just highlight what you want to reply to,
and on the keyboard hit: control "c" which is copy to clipboard.This
holds what you copied into you temp clipboard on the computer. (only one
thing at at a time, because it erases what you copied before.)
Then you hit 'reply' to the email and select 'do not quote post' and then
when the reply opens with the right email at the top, you keyboard
control "v" for pasting what you just copied into the post. Otherwise
you can just highlight and hit backspace to make what ever you want to
edit go away.
Then - no long quotes! - Franis
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:38:17 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
writes:
> This has two info's at the bottom. I have removed them from this
> reply and just left the post that you responded to. Si just scroll
> down and see what is directly relevant to your reply. If it has been
>
> copied before by you or someone else and then scrub it. If you have
>
> some reason to want to keep whole threads together you might do well
>
> to copy them onto a text file and keep them in a separate folder
> That's what I sometimes do.. As for number of KBs, just so long as
> the post is less than 100 the post will go through. Often it is just
>
> laziness. I have often been guilty of that and have had posts
> refused
> for the same reason.
> don
> >>
> >> On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> >>
> >>> Oops, this is a really long post. Should it have been
> shortened? k
> >>>
> >> Yes, it has three info's at the end nor to mention copies of
> >> earlier messages that the
> >> recipients already have in their inboxes.
> >> don
> >
From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 15 01:32:58 2006
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:38:01 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
References: <BAY22-F2469A42E6A7CB5EC6B7C8AA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01a301c7084d$9a578740$b178480c@HOME>
To my way of thinking, we don't need images to do this at all. What we need
to do is to learn how to recognize the thoughts that our words represent to
us and describe that to each other. This is easily done through the use of
story. If you want to see one of my early attempts at this within this
group then read the post on my web site about making tea. This was the
story I wrote to show the thoughts that the word nurturing represented to me
for a big part of my life and it is the story that I think many people who
grew up with a similar background to mine have for the word nurturing. I
used a format for writing that story that is used by dream groups and I
describe that format in the post.
http://naturallythriving.home.att.net/tea.htm
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com>
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>
> Well, I'll be happy to dialog with you, and anyone else who wants to give
> it a try. Sometimes it takes setting an example to get the ball really
> moving. Images of a certain size are allowed. It'll be a little crude to
> start with because I've just begun, but watching the process of thought
> was something Bohm was about. And those who don't want to deal with it can
> hit the delete button. Nobody has to play "mum" for them. k
>
>>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:17:10 -0700
>>
>>You'll find this is a subject I have been trying to talk about with this
>>group for a very long time and keep hitting a brick wall (particularly
>>with Don F.). The course I took in NLP was all about how to look at
>>thoughts that are not words and perceive their system and create changes
>>by changing the thoughts that are not words. Dream groups do the same
>>thing. They help us to look at our thoughts that are not words and see
>>the association to meaning and words. To my way of thinking for anyone
>>who seriously wants to look at thought as a system this is where you
>>begin.
>>
>>Susan
>>
>>
From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 01:38:07 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:43:13 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
Message-ID: <BAY22-F21B8DDC8DEB8B223E69593A5EA0@phx.gbl>
less than 100 kbs
but if I use an image, or image plus words, that has to fall in the 100kb
size. How can I measure the total kbs?
More cyberspace dialog pioneering! But isn't it great? k
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best
route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 01:40:53 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:45:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
In-Reply-To: <20061114.153648.1408.7.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F20D0F6E0854229E6A4B239A5EA0@phx.gbl>
Franis, I'd love that! Those of you who have been here have such a
different, broader perspective that newbies like me. And my perspective
changes as I read what has gone before me. Thanks so much. k
>From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:36:46 -0800
>
>I still have some from '05 and '04 and pre...I guess I could convert them
>to a file and send that to you, k. - Franis
>
>On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:30:53 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>writes:
> > I don't know if they still exist. After we closed down and started a
> >
> > new list William blocked any access to them. Only later when some of
> >
> > us wanted them, they were re-opened for list-member use. But the
> > older ones might have been lost. I have some of the earlier ones but
> >
> > they are not at all complete and are organised in a way that I can
> > only use them when I want to look up a particular word or phrase.
> >
> > But William may know more
> >
> > don
> > On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> >
> > > It was a privilege to read last year's posts. So interesting, the
> >
> > > same topics we're dialoging now were being dialogued then, and by
> >
> > > some of the same people. There were some particularly beautiful
> > ones.
> > >
> > > What happened to the earlier archives, William or Don? I gather
> > BD
> > > has been around since 1992 or 3. k
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 15 01:43:32 2006
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:48:36 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
References: <BAY22-F2469A42E6A7CB5EC6B7C8AA5EA0@phx.gbl>
<01a301c7084d$9a578740$b178480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <01b001c7084f$14567f00$b178480c@HOME>
And by the way Kathy, this discussion on making tea was one that Peter took
part in (but only a very small part).
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
> To my way of thinking, we don't need images to do this at all. What we
> need to do is to learn how to recognize the thoughts that our words
> represent to us and describe that to each other. This is easily done
> through the use of story. If you want to see one of my early attempts at
> this within this group then read the post on my web site about making tea.
> This was the story I wrote to show the thoughts that the word nurturing
> represented to me for a big part of my life and it is the story that I
> think many people who grew up with a similar background to mine have for
> the word nurturing. I used a format for writing that story that is used
> by dream groups and I describe that format in the post.
>
> http://naturallythriving.home.att.net/tea.htm
>
> Susan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com>
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>
>
>>
>> Well, I'll be happy to dialog with you, and anyone else who wants to give
>> it a try. Sometimes it takes setting an example to get the ball really
>> moving. Images of a certain size are allowed. It'll be a little crude to
>> start with because I've just begun, but watching the process of thought
>> was something Bohm was about. And those who don't want to deal with it
>> can hit the delete button. Nobody has to play "mum" for them. k
>>
>>>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:17:10 -0700
>>>
>>>You'll find this is a subject I have been trying to talk about with this
>>>group for a very long time and keep hitting a brick wall (particularly
>>>with Don F.). The course I took in NLP was all about how to look at
>>>thoughts that are not words and perceive their system and create changes
>>>by changing the thoughts that are not words. Dream groups do the same
>>>thing. They help us to look at our thoughts that are not words and see
>>>the association to meaning and words. To my way of thinking for anyone
>>>who seriously wants to look at thought as a system this is where you
>>>begin.
>>>
>>>Susan
>>>
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Nov 15 01:39:15 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:49:29 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
Message-ID: <20061114.163917.1408.9.franis_franis@juno.com>
no, no - I didn't suggest using the images to communicate with. I would
never use my private images for others, because they wouldn't get it.
That's the point of having a language, so you can use it to share what
you mean.
That's what people often mistake with metaphor - they think that metaphor
will communicate, but it doesn't, it gives an experience. What you think
about the experience is your own meaning that you assign to it. Each
person assigns a different meaning. A bunch of people will all share an
experience, and you'll have as many meanings assigned after it happens,
even though the exact same thing happened to everyone.
Besides, you even got the wrong idea what the image was. The movies were
woven into the cloth of the coats from experiences of the people who wore
them; so when you put on the coats, you got the experience that the
people had when they wore the coats. So you could be inside how they
assigned the meaning, impossibly.
Franis
> > Franis
> So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
>
> rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
> but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is
> would
> it be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a
>
> closet?
>
> don
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:43:17 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
writes:
>
> On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:25 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
>
> > concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more
> images
> > below in the context of the questions...
> >
> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor
> <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
> > writes:
> >> Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
> >
> > image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a
> roadblock
> >
> >
> > What would a mental image that
> >>
> >> precedes words look like?
> >
> > an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a
> > newspaper
> > of words.
> >
> > For instance, what would my sentence below
> >>
> >> look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they
> were
> >>
> >> about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
> >>> don
> >
> > Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things,"
> which
> > are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
> > coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push
> > into the
> > coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories
>
> > of the
> > people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns,
>
> > like a
> > coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
> >
> > ...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of
> > memories,
> > like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try
> on...
> >
> >
> > Franis
> So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
>
> rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
> but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is
> would
> it be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a
>
> closet?
>
> don
From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 15 01:53:43 2006
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Nov 16 02:58:49 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
References: <20061114.163917.1408.9.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <01b701c70850$8093e350$b178480c@HOME>
Cool metaphor Franis. I'm going to have to remember that one.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com>
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
> no, no - I didn't suggest using the images to communicate with. I would
> never use my private images for others, because they wouldn't get it.
> That's the point of having a language, so you can use it to share what
> you mean.
>
> That's what people often mistake with metaphor - they think that metaphor
> will communicate, but it doesn't, it gives an experience. What you think
> about the experience is your own meaning that you assign to it. Each
> person assigns a different meaning. A bunch of people will all share an
> experience, and you'll have as many meanings assigned after it happens,
> even though the exact same thing happened to everyone.
>
> Besides, you even got the wrong idea what the image was. The movies were
> woven into the cloth of the coats from experiences of the people who wore
> them; so when you put on the coats, you got the experience that the
> people had when they wore the coats. So you could be inside how they
> assigned the meaning, impossibly.
> Franis
>
>> > Franis
>> So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
>>
>> rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
>> but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is
>> would
>> it be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a
>>
>> closet?
>>
>> don
>
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:43:17 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
> writes:
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:25 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
>>
>> > concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more
>> images
>> > below in the context of the questions...
>> >
>> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor
>> <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>> > writes:
>> >> Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
>> >
>> > image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a
>> roadblock
>> >
>> >
>> > What would a mental image that
>> >>
>> >> precedes words look like?
>> >
>> > an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a
>> > newspaper
>> > of words.
>> >
>> > For instance, what would my sentence below
>> >>
>> >> look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they
>> were
>> >>
>> >> about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
>> >>> don
>> >
>> > Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things,"
>> which
>> > are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
>> > coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push
>> > into the
>> > coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories
>>
>> > of the
>> > people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns,
>>
>> > like a
>> > coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
>> >
>> > ...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of
>> > memories,
>> > like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try
>> on...
>> >
>> >
>> > Franis
>> So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
>>
>> rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
>> but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is
>> would
>> it be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a
>>
>> closet?
>>
>> don
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 02:08:47 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:13:54 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
In-Reply-To: <01b001c7084f$14567f00$b178480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F249F1AAD0A7A23C75E93AAA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Susan, the truths you got at are so right on! This is similar to myths to
live by - except replace the damaging myths with good ones. Very important
to stop the perpetration of violence handed down in child rearing, and other
experiences that go in the garbage bags we carry on our shoulders. I just
don't think the point is "need". In language, we can make word pictures.
But sometimes emotions and thoughts are too big to be put into words. I
don't think one replaces the other. I think they're complimentary.
I had no idea you'd been with the group so long. Did you find Peter to be
difficult?
I did think the opening discourse between the two was less alive than your
working through of it. It was interesting to watch my mind relax and go
with the flow as you progressed. Thanks for posting this. BTW, one of your
posts in the archive was one that really touched my heart. k
>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:43:32 -0700
>
>And by the way Kathy, this discussion on making tea was one that Peter took
>part in (but only a very small part).
>
>Susan
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Clemons"
><Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:32 PM
>Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
>
>
>>To my way of thinking, we don't need images to do this at all. What we
>>need to do is to learn how to recognize the thoughts that our words
>>represent to us and describe that to each other. This is easily done
>>through the use of story. If you want to see one of my early attempts at
>>this within this group then read the post on my web site about making tea.
>>This was the story I wrote to show the thoughts that the word nurturing
>>represented to me for a big part of my life and it is the story that I
>>think many people who grew up with a similar background to mine have for
>>the word nurturing. I used a format for writing that story that is used
>>by dream groups and I describe that format in the post.
>>
>>http://naturallythriving.home.att.net/tea.htm
>>
>>Susan
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Morgan Jett" <griffyn23@hotmail.com>
>>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:21 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Well, I'll be happy to dialog with you, and anyone else who wants to give
>>>it a try. Sometimes it takes setting an example to get the ball really
>>>moving. Images of a certain size are allowed. It'll be a little crude to
>>>start with because I've just begun, but watching the process of thought
>>>was something Bohm was about. And those who don't want to deal with it
>>>can hit the delete button. Nobody has to play "mum" for them. k
>>>
>>>>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>>>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>>>>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:17:10 -0700
>>>>
>>>>You'll find this is a subject I have been trying to talk about with this
>>>>group for a very long time and keep hitting a brick wall (particularly
>>>>with Don F.). The course I took in NLP was all about how to look at
>>>>thoughts that are not words and perceive their system and create changes
>>>>by changing the thoughts that are not words. Dream groups do the same
>>>>thing. They help us to look at our thoughts that are not words and see
>>>>the association to meaning and words. To my way of thinking for anyone
>>>>who seriously wants to look at thought as a system this is where you
>>>>begin.
>>>>
>>>>Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From donlay at gte.net Wed Nov 15 02:16:39 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:22:56 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
References: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D1695D070A@msw2k.msw.local>
Message-ID: <008701c70853$d6b655d0$fc1b153f@DL01>
that has meaning -- d
High D. Say Hi to M for me.
Yes ... just what is the meaning? Could it mean something like ... whatever is, is -- and whatever is SAID, LANGUAGED, is something very different? -- don L
http://home1.gte.net/donlay
----- Original Message -----
From: Dorothy Stulberg
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 3:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
that has meaning--measuring experience alters what is measured--or with other words, describing experience alters (adds to) experience. d
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Don Lay
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 3:36 PM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
I don't know how to expand on this, since I have to use words. -- don
Yes. It seems convenient at times to ignore that no matter what actually is, talking about seems to change it just as measuring an electron with an electron alters what is measured.
It really seems helpful to view words as measures of experience such that we say measuring experience alters what is measured.
Thoughts? dbl
http://home1.gte.net/donlay
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:35 AM, Don Lay wrote:
Seems to me what Bohm says of thought in TAS can and should be applied to language.
This is a topic that I think calls for a lot more inquiry. I would say that TAS in the sense that
you use it here applies primarily to language. But are there forms of thought that don't depend
on words or combinations of words? Is there such a thing as nonconceptual thought? I think
so, but I don't know how to expand on this, since I have to use words.
don
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 02:23:47 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:28:53 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
In-Reply-To: <018d01c70847$ea2c23d0$b178480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F2126B6528838591B793483A5EA0@phx.gbl>
What would a mental image that precedes words look like? an empty outline of
a silouette of me, positioned underneath a newspaper of words.
K: Don, that's pretty good!
>From: "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:52:04 -0700
>
>The images aren't about communicating Don, they're about understanding
>thought as a system. That's how it works before (and maybe under?) the
>words. Those imaginings that Franis was describing is her own system of
>thoughts that the words represent to her. So to my way of thinking, if you
>really want to look at thought as a system then our private imaginings and
>memories are a necessary ingredient to look at. Learning how to talk about
>them and describe them to each other can be very helpful.
>
>Susan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: donald factor
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:25 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
>
>
> concepts are the relationships that are communicated...see more images
>
> below in the context of the questions...
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:29:41 -0800 donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>
> writes:
>
> Maybe, but it doesn't compute for me.
>
>
>
>
> image of light traveling along a wire, and running into a roadblock
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What would a mental image that
>
>
>
>
> precedes words look like?
>
>
>
>
> an empty outline of a silouette of me, positioned underneath a
>newspaper
>
> of words.
>
>
>
>
> For instance, what would my sentence below
>
>
>
>
> look like? What would a construct of memories look like if they were
>
>
>
>
> about abstract ideas rather than place, people or things?
>
> don
>
>
>
>
> Well, my symbols tend to give an experience toward the "things," which
>
> are transformed into being impossible things. Such as:
>
> coats are hanging on a rack; when you walk up the rack and push into
>the
>
> coats to see what they look like, you find there are the memories of
>the
>
> people who wore the coats flickering across their cloth patterns, like
>a
>
> coat held up in the way of a movie projector.
>
>
>
>
> ...so a movie of the experience of searching through a file of
>memories,
>
> like searching through an outdoor closet of free things to try on...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Franis
>
> So, yeah, we could send each other little movies and I could use the
>rest of my waking hours watching them and then making my own
>
> but words are more efficient. And, for that matter, how easy is would it
>be to interpret the meanings of a movie of a bunch of coats in a closet?
>
>
> don
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
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From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 02:26:21 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:31:52 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
In-Reply-To: <01a301c7084d$9a578740$b178480c@HOME>
References: <BAY22-F2469A42E6A7CB5EC6B7C8AA5EA0@phx.gbl>
<01a301c7084d$9a578740$b178480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <8DC6048B-6DC8-4D4F-AD59-719E4C2B3C07@dc.rr.com>
I have nothing against images, but as has been said many times before
and not only by me, images are not the problem. nor is making music
or dancing or singing together. Talking together is. Especially when
it is about subjects that are important to us. Governments,
parliaments, congresses, boards of directors, families, and so on,
are the means by which decisions get made that effect all of our
lives all over the world and in every culture. And we humans seem
pretty incompetent when it comes to this. There are entire industries
devoted to getting people to communicate better. Katherine has first
hand experience of some of them. So far as I can see, it isn't
language itself that is the problem but rather, its the way we use it
or the way we understand it. When Bohm used the example of sticking
with an angry feeling until you recognise the thought that underlies
the emotion. The thought will unfold as words. Once those words are
heard/noticed then the anger dissolves because the underlying thought
is usually not relevant to the actual event that made you angry,
That's the theory anyway.
So, it could be that exchanging images is a distraction. Of course,
there may be times when an image is pertinent and says something
better than it can be said in words. I use images every once in a
while. I have a small collection of such images that I have used from
time to time. My only problem with images is the nuisance of trying
to shrink them down to an allowable size.
don
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>
>
From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 02:28:09 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:33:13 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F21B8DDC8DEB8B223E69593A5EA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F21B8DDC8DEB8B223E69593A5EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9504472E-F59F-445A-B293-74ED32FAB521@dc.rr.com>
my Apple mail ap tells me in a little note at the bottom left hand
corner. I only just noticed it. Usually I have to take the picture
and using a graphics app like Photoshop or Graphic Converter fiddle
with it until I get it down to size.
don
On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> less than 100 kbs
>
> but if I use an image, or image plus words, that has to fall in the
> 100kb size. How can I measure the total kbs?
>
> More cyberspace dialog pioneering! But isn't it great? k
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
> then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 02:30:11 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:35:14 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] teacherly
In-Reply-To: <20061114.152841.1408.6.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F19762174A90C54C74AA90A5EA0@phx.gbl>
Yeah, guess that would mean that (Morgan) k is even more teacherly. She's
awfully persistent. ;o)
K: Franis, image me chuckling at recognizing myself! Actually, I'm going
to think about the 2 ways of being persistent. Never occurred to me before.
k
>From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] teacherly
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:28:40 -0800
>
>Yeah, guess that would mean that (Morgan) k is even more teacherly. She's
>awfully persistent. ;o)
>I used to think that I wasn't persistent, then I realized I have the kind
>of persistence that keeps circling back around, rather than the kind that
>keeps pushing and repeating.
>- Franis
>
>On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:43:49 -0500 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > Rodger__Hmm, maybe I'm just too old but I have never had an
> > impression that
> > Susan or Franis used their diction to teach me something -- in
> > dialogue.
> >
> > Yes, they tend to express perspectives with some passion and
> > enthusiasm, or
> > even sometimes explain themselves with zeal. But if I am ever too
> > dumb or
> > stubborn to actually understand what they hope to share, it seems
> > they are
> > always very quick to let the -lesson- GO. Which I think is very
> > UN-teacherly of them. _R
> > .
> > .
> > From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] teacherly
> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > .
> > What if the way you want to come across in the way you mean to
> > communicate
> > isn't "teacherly"? Franis
> > .
> > .=
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
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From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 02:30:23 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:35:28 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F20D0F6E0854229E6A4B239A5EA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F20D0F6E0854229E6A4B239A5EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <371BFA3F-390E-4743-BCB4-154D60A15168@dc.rr.com>
K, this is what the end of this post looked like.
On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> Franis, I'd love that! Those of you who have been here have such a
> different, broader perspective that newbies like me. And my
> perspective changes as I read what has gone before me. Thanks so
> much. k
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
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_______________________________________________
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 02:34:29 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:39:33 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Second post
In-Reply-To: <20061114.163917.1408.9.franis_franis@juno.com>
References: <20061114.163917.1408.9.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <F1C82D85-B382-45B1-BE7E-25243F8E3251@dc.rr.com>
On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Franis Engel wrote:
> Besides, you even got the wrong idea what the image was. The movies
> were
> woven into the cloth of the coats from experiences of the people
> who wore
> them; so when you put on the coats, you got the experience that the
> people had when they wore the coats. So you could be inside how they
> assigned the meaning, impossibly.
> Franis
>
Yeah, that's nice. Good writing, good literary style. And your
explanation is also dialogical.
Because it tells me what you meant in a way that I can share
something of the experience.
What do I mean by dialogical? I mean, that it also asks, tacitly, for
a response, so here it is.
don
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 02:40:07 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:45:13 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
In-Reply-To: <D96314F1-DDD0-49D5-8B1A-2522DE4D9F8C@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F244AEBBA4C6D014D330E71A5EA0@phx.gbl>
After we closed down and started a new list William blocked any access to
them.
K: William, here comes "Persistent K"! I love history, geneology,
understanding how things today stand on the shoulders of their forebears.
It's like time travel, mind-opening for me. I did the same thing for my
Dalcroze research. The entire era and how Dalcroze reflected it was
enormously englightening. I would love to do the same thing for Bohm. He
is as dear to me as Dalcroze, his life spans the same time frame as
Dalcroze, and they shared the same goals. Would you consider giving list
members access to them?
And Don, I don't mind how they are organized. It's the content that counts.
If you have some kind of project in mind, perhaps I can be of some kind of
assistance as I read them.
I would really appreciate that. k
>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 15:30:53 -0800
>
>I don't know if they still exist. After we closed down and started a new
>list William blocked any access to them. Only later when some of us wanted
>them, they were re-opened for list-member use. But the older ones might
>have been lost. I have some of the earlier ones but they are not at all
>complete and are organised in a way that I can only use them when I want
>to look up a particular word or phrase.
>
>But William may know more
>
>don
>On Nov 14, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
>>It was a privilege to read last year's posts. So interesting, the same
>>topics we're dialoging now were being dialogued then, and by some of the
>>same people. There were some particularly beautiful ones.
>>
>>What happened to the earlier archives, William or Don? I gather BD has
>>been around since 1992 or 3. k
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 02:49:00 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 03:54:05 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
In-Reply-To: <371BFA3F-390E-4743-BCB4-154D60A15168@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F2006F9AE52AEF397F2092EA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Don, I'm drawing a blank. Is that good or bad? It makes sense to me.
Don't get it. k
>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:30:23 -0800
>
>K, this is what the end of this post looked like.
>On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
>>Franis, I'd love that! Those of you who have been here have such a
>>different, broader perspective that newbies like me. And my perspective
>>changes as I read what has gone before me. Thanks so much. k
>
>> > info:
>> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>> >
>> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > dialogue facilitator:
>> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > Administrator of the mailing list:
>> > admin@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
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>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
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>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
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>
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>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
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From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 02:55:12 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 04:00:17 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F2006F9AE52AEF397F2092EA5EA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F2006F9AE52AEF397F2092EA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <357692CA-D94F-42E7-88A6-2EC8AD61E31D@dc.rr.com>
> Don, I'm drawing a blank. Is that good or bad? It makes sense to
> me. Don't get it. k
Scroll down, It's bad. One more time and its detention for you.
You will have to write,
>>> info:
>>> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>> >
>>> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>> >
>>> > dialogue facilitator:
>>> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
100 times.
don
>>>
On Nov 14, 2006, at 5:49 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
>
>> From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] archives
>> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:30:23 -0800
>>
>> K, this is what the end of this post looked like.
>> On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>>
>>> Franis, I'd love that! Those of you who have been here have such
>>> a different, broader perspective that newbies like me. And my
>>> perspective changes as I read what has gone before me. Thanks
>>> so much. k
>>
>>> > info:
>>> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>> >
>>> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>> >
>>> > dialogue facilitator:
>>> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>> >
>>> > Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> > admin@david-bohm.net
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-
>> day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/
>> direct/01/? href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/
> hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
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>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
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>
> _______________________________________________
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 02:56:36 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 04:01:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
In-Reply-To: <9504472E-F59F-445A-B293-74ED32FAB521@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F82447375B903578B590DBA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Hotmail isn't so sophisticated. Actually, it's a real pain. Every 2
seconds, it thinks I'm a spammer, and makes me type in 8 letters to prove
I'm not. And I have no real options on it. I've got Photoshop, and don't
know how to use it. One of these days, I'll be silent from the list long
enough to figure it out!
Thanks, k
>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:28:09 -0800
>
>my Apple mail ap tells me in a little note at the bottom left hand corner.
>I only just noticed it. Usually I have to take the picture and using a
>graphics app like Photoshop or Graphic Converter fiddle with it until I
>get it down to size.
>
>don
>On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
>>less than 100 kbs
>>
>>but if I use an image, or image plus words, that has to fall in the 100kb
>>size. How can I measure the total kbs?
>>
>>More cyberspace dialog pioneering! But isn't it great? k
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
>>then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best
route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 03:12:27 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 04:17:31 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] oh dear!
Message-ID: <BAY22-F250F4D2556A45228BB59BDA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Scroll down, It's bad. One more time and its detention for you.
You will have to write,
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net
100 times.
don
Better? (urge to hug DonF)
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Nov 15 03:26:04 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Thu Nov 16 04:31:07 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way
Message-ID: <20061115022604.99651.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com>
your post is cracking me up because i know what you mean. thanks for writing this exactly like this don!
first of all taking posts personally no matter if it is intended or not can teach us much. it can be about something "good" or "bad" too. so if we have a strong to reaction to something you said or something i thought you said, we can stay with the energy behind the reaction and somehow hold it and explore it. that is the juiciness.
and then there is this whole impersonal v personal. even if we think we are having a personal conversation maybe that is even impersonal on a larger level. my mind just blew apart when i read this and then i laughed.
what is natural to some people and unusual to others also intrigues me. i wonder if a lot of my life is like that. and why things are unusual or normal in the first place. i guess that categorization and recognition -- normal or unusual -- comes from our rationl abilities: statistics, etc. why cant everything just be fascinating? sometimes it is...
and yeah i was pretty much assuming that everything i read is a proposal for further inquiry, but thanks for expressing that.
anyone else?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 11:04:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] robust dialogue and the middle way
It seems to me that this sort of misunderstanding - that is, taking
posts personally when that wasn't what was intended - has not been
unusual. So maybe what we are doing here is having an impersonal
conversation with everybody. And although to me this seems quite
natural to me it may be that's because I've been doing it for a long
time, or maybe it is more unusual than I thought. Actually, this also
might refer to the "teacherly" thing. If I want to get a bit
teacherly I can make clear that, like Bohm used to do, it is just a
proposal for further inquiry, or something like that. What do you
think? Anybody?
don
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From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 03:33:21 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 04:38:27 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
In-Reply-To: <8DC6048B-6DC8-4D4F-AD59-719E4C2B3C07@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F18669423FA163C168BD500A5EA0@phx.gbl>
When Bohm used the example of sticking with an angry feeling until you
recognise the thought that underlies the emotion. The thought will unfold
as words.
K: That's just it. I've carried the image of me sitting on that sofa,
holding the picture of Christ for 64 years. It opened up to me only when
Kris started playing images with me, and it opened as a mind picture - the
whole livingroom scene plus the emotions simultaneously. And in this case,
the thought and the image were so relevent they've directed my behavior all
that time. I was only able to recognize and integrate the whole thing as a
result of images.
I don't think we should abandon images for words. I wouldn't give up my
Shakespeare, nor would i give up my Leonardo. When we dialog, we use both
or either. Mostly both
But - I was having trouble with Navajo (6 years ago), asked the teacher, and
much to my dismay, he grabbed a piece of chalk and drew a picture. I didn't
understand a word! k
>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:26:21 -0800
>
>I have nothing against images, but as has been said many times before and
>not only by me, images are not the problem. nor is making music or dancing
>or singing together. Talking together is. Especially when it is about
>subjects that are important to us. Governments, parliaments, congresses,
>boards of directors, families, and so on, are the means by which decisions
>get made that effect all of our lives all over the world and in every
>culture. And we humans seem pretty incompetent when it comes to this.
>There are entire industries devoted to getting people to communicate
>better. Katherine has first hand experience of some of them. So far as I
>can see, it isn't language itself that is the problem but rather, its the
>way we use it or the way we understand it. When Bohm used the example of
>sticking with an angry feeling until you recognise the thought that
>underlies the emotion. The thought will unfold as words. Once those words
>are heard/noticed then the anger dissolves because the underlying thought
>is usually not relevant to the actual event that made you angry, That's
>the theory anyway.
>
>So, it could be that exchanging images is a distraction. Of course, there
>may be times when an image is pertinent and says something better than it
>can be said in words. I use images every once in a while. I have a small
>collection of such images that I have used from time to time. My only
>problem with images is the nuisance of trying to shrink them down to an
>allowable size.
>
>don
><< peanutsdialog.pict >>
><< peanutsdialog.pict >>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From frantisekplessl at yahoo.com Wed Nov 15 03:48:22 2006
From: frantisekplessl at yahoo.com (Mr. Frantisek Plessl)
Date: Thu Nov 16 04:53:28 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
In-Reply-To: <8DC6048B-6DC8-4D4F-AD59-719E4C2B3C07@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20061115024823.94721.qmail@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
From: Don
(short part paste)
When Bohm used the example of sticking with an angry
feeling until you recognize the thought that underlies
the emotion. The thought will unfold as words. Once
those words are heard/noticed then the anger dissolves
because the underlying thought is usually not relevant
to the actual event that made you angry.
That's the theory anyway.
Fanda
I would only ad to your statement that when one is
going through anger there is a little chance to be
rational. This anger is a very powerful emotion, and
it takes hold of the totality of once being. It is
therefore later when one can be preoccupied with many
escapes and rationalize it. One would then ask rather
question if anger is inevitable then there is little
for one to do, and if it is not inevitable then
perhaps there is a time for total new insight into
this mechanism of anger itself.
This anger needs some feedback so do speak in the form
of image-memory-thought. What it would be like for the
mind not to know anger? It is an either conditioned
reflex or natural response of the body and mind.
For the sake of an argument I would say anger could be
look at from different point of understanding. One
would be healthy and the other unhealthy in the form
of sustain anger. Short anger and sustain anger.
The world is full of anger on an individual,
collective, national and global level. It has been
like this for millennia, and the future of mankind
looks grim. One must start somewhere, and this
somewhere maybe just maybe starts with notion of
something more then there is. I feel and I thing,
which points to many things beyond thought itself.
Fanda Plessl
e-mail: frantisekplessl@yahoo.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
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From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 03:48:58 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 04:54:04 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F82447375B903578B590DBA5EA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY22-F82447375B903578B590DBA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A0CDC9E1-7729-4392-A241-67F2B2B8CF9D@dc.rr.com>
I haven't used hotmail for years. Is it webmail? Even if you read it
on the web there is an alternative. You can set up your e-mail
software. It cmes with Windows and is called outlook or outlook
express or if you have a Mac you can have mail. And set up your
hotmail account to give you the controls that you need. PIck any
neighborhood kid older than 6 but not older than 40 and he or she
can very likely do it for you. Then you can even send pictures if yo
like.
don
On Nov 14, 2006, at 5:56 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
> Hotmail isn't so sophisticated. Actually, it's a real pain. Every
> 2 seconds, it thinks I'm a spammer, and makes me type in 8 letters
> to prove I'm not. And I have no real options on it. I've got
> Photoshop, and don't know how to use it. One of these days, I'll
> be silent from the list long enough to figure it out!
>
> Thanks, k
>
>
>> From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
>> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:28:09 -0800
>>
>> my Apple mail ap tells me in a little note at the bottom left
>> hand corner. I only just noticed it. Usually I have to take the
>> picture and using a graphics app like Photoshop or Graphic
>> Converter fiddle with it until I get it down to size.
>>
>> don
>> On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>>
>>> less than 100 kbs
>>>
>>> but if I use an image, or image plus words, that has to fall in
>>> the 100kb size. How can I measure the total kbs?
>>>
>>> More cyberspace dialog pioneering! But isn't it great? k
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
>>> then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
> then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
From dfactor at dc.rr.com Wed Nov 15 03:55:11 2006
From: dfactor at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Nov 16 05:00:18 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
In-Reply-To: <20061115024823.94721.qmail@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <20061115024823.94721.qmail@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8293F76E-0259-45A2-9FDE-6D45424507A4@dc.rr.com>
On Nov 14, 2006, at 6:48 PM, Mr. Frantisek Plessl wrote:
>
> The world is full of anger on an individual,
> collective, national and global level. It has been
> like this for millennia, and the future of mankind
> looks grim. One must start somewhere, and this
> somewhere maybe just maybe starts with notion of
> something more then there is. I feel and I thing,
> which points to many things beyond thought itself.
If you are correct here, and I think you are, what is it that humans
have been so angry about for millennia? If you stop and think about
it, it is weird. A whole species has spent millennnia in a state of
anger! Of course, it is often repressed, but it is there just waiting
to get out, or so it seems. What is it?
don
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Wed Nov 15 02:57:38 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Thu Nov 16 05:02:30 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
In-Reply-To: <01a301c7084d$9a578740$b178480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <C17FD032.8026%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
It's a wonderful story, Susan, and a wonderful example. I've been involved
in one dream group or another for many years & never thought of that in
terms of dialogue, but we do function that way, learning to suspend our
emotional reactions to dream images and sometimes to each other in order to
explore all the meanings there for each of us. I particularly like our
practice (at least in theory) of prefacing every comment with "If that were
my dream . . ." It helps us be aware of our projections and assumptions.
Lynne
On 11/14/06 6:32 PM, "Susan Clemons" <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> To my way of thinking, we don't need images to do this at all. What we need
> to do is to learn how to recognize the thoughts that our words represent to
> us and describe that to each other. This is easily done through the use of
> story. If you want to see one of my early attempts at this within this
> group then read the post on my web site about making tea. This was the
> story I wrote to show the thoughts that the word nurturing represented to me
> for a big part of my life and it is the story that I think many people who
> grew up with a similar background to mine have for the word nurturing. I
> used a format for writing that story that is used by dream groups and I
> describe that format in the post.
>
> http://naturallythriving.home.att.net/tea.htm
>
> Susan
>
From griffyn23 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 04:20:51 2006
From: griffyn23 at hotmail.com (Morgan Jett)
Date: Thu Nov 16 05:26:03 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
In-Reply-To: <A0CDC9E1-7729-4392-A241-67F2B2B8CF9D@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY22-F51F94AD9CDE7221EAB36EA5EA0@phx.gbl>
Hotmail is webmail, and I'm Mac. My rcn account is on Entourage and I have
to type in the Hotmail url every time I open it. And when i try to send
images, it shuts me down and asks me to type in 8 wierd looking letters
because it thinks I'm a professional spammer!
Thanks. I'll look for that kid!
>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:48:58 -0800
>
>I haven't used hotmail for years. Is it webmail? Even if you read it on
>the web there is an alternative. You can set up your e-mail software. It
>cmes with Windows and is called outlook or outlook express or if you have
>a Mac you can have mail. And set up your hotmail account to give you the
>controls that you need. PIck any neighborhood kid older than 6 but not
>older than 40 and he or she can very likely do it for you. Then you can
>even send pictures if yo like.
>don
>On Nov 14, 2006, at 5:56 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>
>>Hotmail isn't so sophisticated. Actually, it's a real pain. Every 2
>>seconds, it thinks I'm a spammer, and makes me type in 8 letters to prove
>>I'm not. And I have no real options on it. I've got Photoshop, and
>>don't know how to use it. One of these days, I'll be silent from the
>>list long enough to figure it out!
>>
>>Thanks, k
>>
>>
>>>From: donald factor <dfactor@dc.rr.com>
>>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] quotes, cont
>>>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:28:09 -0800
>>>
>>>my Apple mail ap tells me in a little note at the bottom left hand
>>>corner. I only just noticed it. Usually I have to take the picture and
>>>using a graphics app like Photoshop or Graphic Converter fiddle with it
>>>until I get it down to size.
>>>
>>>don
>>>On Nov 14, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Morgan Jett wrote:
>>>
>>>>less than 100 kbs
>>>>
>>>>but if I use an image, or image plus words, that has to fall in the
>>>>100kb size. How can I measure the total kbs?
>>>>
>>>>More cyberspace dialog pioneering! But isn't it great? k
>>>>
>>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>>Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
>>>>then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>info:
>>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>info:
>>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>dialogue facilitator:
>>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
>>then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilit