From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 00:55:20 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 01:53:50 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] resent
In-Reply-To: <20061014.121042.1588.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C156E318.383E%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Thanks, Franis. That's a relief. k
On 10/14/06 3:02 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> I believe it's what happens automatically in the system when the message
> bounces for whatever reason and it gets re-sent and goes through the
> second or third time the systems has re-sent it.
> no resentment or misrepresentation implied ;o) - Franis
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:21:34 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/06 1:04 AM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
>>>> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of
>> Kathryn
>>>> Arizmendi
>>
>>
>> Hi Franis - could you please tell me why the heading says "On Behalf
>> of..."?
>>
>> Also why another post says "resent" with my name?
>>
>> I've never seen this before, and I'm not sure I want someone to have
>> the
>> power to send things on my behalf unless I know about it! What's it
>> all
>> about? Thanks, k
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 00:56:02 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 01:54:31 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] imperfect cadences
In-Reply-To: <20061014190621.42359.qmail@web52915.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C156E342.383F%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
I didn?t dangle long! k
On 10/14/06 3:06 PM, "Karilen Mays" <tubakari@yahoo.com> wrote:
> just enjoy dangling on imperfect cadences! :)
> kari
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> To: "bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org" <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:46:45 AM
> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] imperfect cadences
>
> Hello-o-o-o-o-o-
>
> Where?d everybody go? I?m dangling on an imperfect cadence! k
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
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> admin@david-bohm.net
>
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>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
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>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
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>
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 00:56:49 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 01:55:17 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
In-Reply-To: <20061014190817.21659.qmail@web52914.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C156E371.3840%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Absolutely. I am in NYC. If anyone comes this way, lets get together. k
On 10/14/06 3:08 PM, "Karilen Mays" <tubakari@yahoo.com> wrote:
> that's awesome dorothy! i hope i can eventually have the pleasure of meeting
> some of you!
> thanks for sharing!
> kari
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dorothy Stulberg <DStulberg@msw-law.com>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 10:53:03 AM
> Subject: RE: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
>
> speaking of meeting with others, Don Lay knocked on our door last night and he
> was exactly as I thought he would be--delightful. He even looked like I
> imagined him. He and my husband and I had a great evening. I hope we get to
> see him again before he leaves the area.
> It really is possible to get to know someone over this quite impersonal means
> but the in-person is the best. D.
>
>
> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn Arizmendi
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 9:37 PM
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
>
> Rather look at the actions and talk about them and try to understand the
> grounding of the other one.
> I'm rattling as usual. This has been a very demanding day. D.
>
> Hello D ? I don?t remember meeting you, but I agree with your first and last
> sentences. Have a restful night. k
>
>
> On 10/13/06 6:15 PM, "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote:
>
>> It's funny. Today a client and I met with the opposite side. She told me I
>> am too nice and don't have the inutition of how bad the other people are.
>> She has an intuition, according to her, of who is being honest and who is a
>> "good" person.
>> I thought about that on the two hour drive back from the meeting.
>> I have fought that kind of intuition, if I ever had it. I don't want to
>> begin with the idea someone is cheating or evil (Bush aside--he has given so
>> many examples it is beyond intuition.) The idea of Bohm and of collaborative
>> learning has directed me to avoid deciding what kind of person a person is.
>> Rather look at the actions and talk about them and try to understand the
>> grounding of the other one.
>> I'm rattling as usual. This has been a very demanding day. D.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 00:58:31 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 01:57:00 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <003c01c6efc7$3ce48f20$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Message-ID: <C156E3D7.3841%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
On 10/14/06 3:30 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
> t what actually is cannot be known
>
> why not, Don? Maybe not in my lifetime or yours, but never? That is, if the
> planet survives, or we all don?t mutate into who-knows-what! k
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 01:00:06 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 01:58:38 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <014201c6efca$4bc0da00$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Message-ID: <C156E436.3842%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
We?re on the same page. k
On 10/14/06 3:48 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
> End does not just mean ceasation. It also means aim, intention. So, saying
> that Being is ultimate, the intentive meaning is the funda of fundamental and
> also the aim, intention in the sense that Being intends itself. Incidently,
> we also intend being, don't we?
>
> Parmenides says that all words spoken are about being (INSTEAD OF NON BEING).
> -- Don L
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Karilen Mays <mailto:tubakari@yahoo.com>
>>
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:55 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I wouldnt even say the experience of "being" is ultimate...only that being
>> encompasses all that is, but there is no end to that, so how can it be
>> ultimate in the sense of an end?
>>
>> if ultimate is an all encompassing flow of Life, then yeah being is
>> ultimate.
>
>
>
>
> kari
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Don Lay <donlay@gte.net>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:20:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>
>
> Ultimate is defined as foundation and aim or end. Thus, isn't the experience
> of 'being' ultimate in that being is the foundation of all experience as well
> as the aim and intention of all experience? -- Don L
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:59 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>
>>
>> Is there an ?ultimate experience??
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/06 9:48 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the
>>> Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal
>>> identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal
>>> identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that
>>> direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is
>>> being done. -- Don L
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>>>
>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
>>>> (resent)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes! k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
>>>> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
>>>>> this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time.
>>>>> And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
>>>>> experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
>>>>> .
>>>>> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
>>>>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>>>>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>>>>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker
>>>>> bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> info:
>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>
>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
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>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
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> admin@david-bohm.net
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> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 01:07:29 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 02:05:58 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: bouncing
In-Reply-To: <20061014205950.92955.qmail@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C156E5F1.3844%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
On 10/14/06 4:59 PM, "Zoe Chu" <zoechuzero@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi - I received a message from Kirsten saying that she was kicked out of this
> group
Yes, Zoe, so did I.
Kris and I were on the list, s/he was trying to help me learn to send images
in my emails when I got a message from the Administrator asking us to take
the conversation off . I had no problem with that, thinking it was because
our conversation wasn?t a dialog topic.
The next day, I got the email from him/her saying he was ?bounced?. That?s
when I noticed my own emails were being sent from that Bohm-dialog ?bounced?
address I posted earlier.
One of the many thoughts that crossed my mind was that because I not only
got along with Kris, and was online with her just prior to her being
bounced, but also felt a connection with her ? (although he was often
difficult; frequently I did not like her tone, and cautioned her about both
that and his vivid images (remember the ?stoplight? conversation?) )?
perhaps my emails to the group were being ?monitored?, through some kind of
?guilt by association?. We do live in a post 9-11 world;I lived through
McCarthy,the 60s, and raised 2 boys in NYC gangland.
I began researching the ?bounced? question last night, then sending
questions this afternoon, because I don?t like to jump to conclusions. I
received an answer from Franis that you may have seen posted:
I believe it's what happens automatically in the system when the
message bounces for whatever reason and it gets re-sent and goes through the
second or third time the systems has re-sent it.
no resentment or misrepresentation implied ;o) - Franis
so that?s cleared up; she has more computer expertise than I.
I miss Kris and send thoughts of Hozhoon (the beauty of walking balance with
all my relations), wherever he/she is. I wish he were still here. k
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From donlay at gte.net Sun Oct 15 03:27:10 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Oct 16 04:29:43 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
References: <C156E3D7.3841%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008101c6eff9$871fa110$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)Knowing has two meanings. Knowing means participating in and it also means saying, language.
It seems reasonable to say, by definition, all that is participates in the whole, doesn't it?
What is said though is quite something different. Korzybski says that no matter how much description is used, the description cannot ever exhaustively describe what actually is, that which is.
Makes sense to me. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
On 10/14/06 3:30 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
t what actually is cannot be known
why not, Don? Maybe not in my lifetime or yours, but never? That is, if the planet survives, or we all don't mutate into who-knows-what! k
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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From donlay at gte.net Sun Oct 15 03:35:14 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Oct 16 04:33:54 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] LOGOS-Intuition
References: <OF325D7C89.D567238D-ON85257207.003B51B3-85257207.003FDFAB@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <00d201c6effa$29908f40$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
Rodger, what about the idea that both REASON and MEANING derive from the original Greek, logos? The Greek logos is the idea that the universe, the whole, the infinite plenum is not chaotic because it has logos character. The whole is characterized by reason, ratio, logos.
Thus when awareness is not directed to finite systems, then awareness may be directed to non-finite systems, I.e., to the logos of being such that we say insight occurs. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:37 AM
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] LOGOS-Intuition
Rodger __I think that the experience & expression of improv, its unfolding/ enfolding meaning, is intuitive. How do you know what music to play without sheets, scores, or song compositions predetermined between the musicians?
Of course some styles improv have predetermined boundaries for the music -- thats not what the improve to which I refer.
Similarly, when composing/creating an original piece of music; Does the composer reason the piece into existance or does the composer TUNE IN to an inspiration they are receiving of a music they hear within a space of INNER LISTENING -- receiving.
There intuitive integrity refuses to pass off a technical rearrangement of works by other composer -- as their own ORIGINAL piece/ inspiration.
Even if no other listener recognized the lack of originality in the rearrangement -- the composer themself KNOWS when their piece is TRUE to what they HEARD WITHIN THEMSELVES and thus were inspired to create.
What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
.
From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
We unfold and enfold simultaneously. (pat)
This is improv, too. k
.
.
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From donlay at gte.net Sun Oct 15 03:36:53 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Oct 16 04:35:26 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
References: <OF77CED40A.38B634E8-ON85257207.0044BE22-85257207.0044E551@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <00dd01c6effa$64dc9d00$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Rodger, it is unclear ... for me: "MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason". I tend to see both reason and meaning as deriving from the Greek logos, variously interpreted as meaning, reason, ratio ...etc. Perhaps from one POV a thingk may appear as reason, and from another POV the same thingk may appear as meaning. -- Don L
Maybe the significance of the Parmenides/Heraclitus line of thought is that no separation appears with their account of reason/ratio/meaning/word. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 8:32 AM
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sun Oct 15 03:18:24 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 04:36:57 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
Message-ID: <20061014.213737.3988.76.ae.dropper@juno.com>
I'm thinking that not having so much of an identity is much more common
than you imagine and that you're holding it up to be something valuable
that it is not - it's just what it is, undifferentiated. (franis)
This "identity," or "identification (this felt {and sorely limited}
sense of a most likely wordless "I am that") with a thought, concept,
image,"
is not directly apparent, at least not initially. It becomes apparent
through [informed] defensive and protective feelings that appear
reflexively
upon meeting a "threat" to whatever the worded/imaged object
in thought, is.
[Collective] thoughts about personal self's constituents ("psychological
thoughts") have a very short shelf life [little attachment] if there is
no
"personal me" image to attach these to. The thoughts may or may not
occur,
but they are not defended, protected. (pat)
The feeling of being a couple or having sex is a human experience that
has a sort of loss of personalhood and an experience of merging;
sometimes the meshing of mother and child or family in general, people
could experience a merging and a lack of personal identity in that common
situation. (Franis)
Yes, these fleeting sensations of oneness are the perks
of personal identity images. There is either the anticipation
or the satisfaction. For anticipation, the sense of separation
needs to be re-established. (pat)
Whereas, if you are just there in the undifferentiated state of not
having an identity, my actions and experience of the world is all so
undefined and amorphous that I cannot know what actions are influencing
what results. Things just happen and there is no ability to tell the
cause and effect so there is no way to quiet myself. (franis)
Would this now be posited as the only alternative to my
above description? Identification is a moving and expanding/shrinking
sort of thing. It is also a leaping and jumping sort of thing. Always
based though on "I AM this." And the "this" is based on a thought
or image. Identity means Identical. The moments of defended
personal identity are moments where self is experienced
as a savagely limited fragment.
We cannot say or think what we are or "would be" without 'being Being
based on a thought'. But we can know what we are without 'being Being
based on a thought. We do it all the time. It occurs in all those [fluid]
moments that there is no reflexive defense or protection of image
[thought] happening. That's all it is. And one still knows the
difference between me and a tree. What is this "undifferentiated"
state? I don't think I've ever experienced it. It would not seem to be
something that could even BE experienced. Who would experience it?
pat
Cool that DonL and Dorothy got to meet in person!
DonL, to take your idea somewhere... How can people get past the
programming of culture that they are a separate individuality and why
would they want to do that?
I find the once you have an identity, it's easier to give it up. That's
the value of it, IMHO.
Whereas, if you are just there in the undifferentiated state of not
having an identity, my actions and experience of the world is all so
undefined and amorphous that I cannot know what actions are influencing
what results. Things just happen and there is no ability to tell the
cause and effect so there is no way to quiet myself.
So identity to me is defining your own sense of what effects are your
responsibility and what belongs to others.
Once a person has been "programmed" by their culture to have an identity,
people can sort of quiet their actions and gain the ability to put action
aside and find out what they do that has a result and what does not.
There are many ways of doing this - you can use a way of directing
attention and manifesting this (formerly merged and unidentified)
expression of themselves by using an action, a medium, an expression, or
any action taken to the level of artistic expression. You can listen to
the culture's definition of individuality - you can go on walk-about.
I'm thinking that not having so much of an identity is much more common
than you imagine and that you're holding it up to be something valuable
that it is not - it's just what it is, undifferentiated.
The feeling of being a couple or having sex is a human experience that
has a sort of loss of personalhood and an experience of merging;
sometimes the meshing of mother and child or family in general, people
could experience a merging and a lack of personal identity in that common
situation. In many other cultures other than the one we're in, people are
not so driven to discover their individuality, their cause and effect on
others and the world and they aren't concerned about it.
Identity is a control issue. Courts define identity so they can take away
these "granted advantages" (of a driver's license, for instance.) Now a
judge/court will suspend your license for punishments that are completely
unrelated to your ability to drive a car safely, for instance. This way
authorities have power over you to get you to give them money and behave
correctly as defined by societal law. Of course, it still doesn't work,
it just makes more people further out of control of their lives.
Franis
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:48:16 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
> Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
> (resent)Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is
> what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the
> imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is
> that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with
> the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ...
> without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kathryn Arizmendi
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
> (resent)
>
>
> Yes! k
>
>
> On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is
> the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same
> juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and
> Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the
> proceeds of reason. _R
> .
> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> .
> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate
> and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or
> thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>
>
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sun Oct 15 03:28:58 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 04:36:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Re: Bohm_Dialogue Digest, Vol 20, Issue 15
Message-ID: <20061014.213737.3988.77.ae.dropper@juno.com>
How did Kirsten (Kris) send that message from your e-mail address, Zoe?
pat
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
writes:
Hi - I received a message from Kirsten saying that she was kicked out of
this group by its "owner" (Don Factor?). Is that the case? If so, is that
in the advertised "spirit of Bohm-Dialogue"? I am rejecting the idea (as
well as the effort) that any voice should be silenced, no matter what it
says - especially in a forum that claims to be about dialogue. At worst
you just skip certain mails; big deal. Or what is the big deal of "the
owner" feeling Kirsten, or whoever, needs to be thown out --- Zoe
bohm_dialogue-request@david-bohm.org wrote:
Send Bohm_Dialogue mailing list submissions to
bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Bohm_Dialogue digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
(Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
2. Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
(Kathryn Arizmendi)
3. test (ae.dropper@juno.com)
4. Re: test (Kathryn Arizmendi)
5. reason-ance, logos-ance (resent) (ae.dropper@juno.com)
6. Experience dia-logos (resent) (ae.dropper@juno.com)
7. Direction dia-logos (resent) (ae.dropper@juno.com)
8. Re: reason-ance, logos-ance (resent) (Kathryn Arizmendi)
9. test (re-sent) (ae.dropper@juno.com)
10. Re: Experience dia logos (Owen Thomas)
11. Re: test (re-sent) (Kathryn Arizmendi)
12. Re: Direction dia-logos (resent) (Kathryn Arizmendi)
13. RE: Direction dia-logos (resent) (Regina Bensch-Coe)
14. Re: Direction dia-logos (resent) (Kathryn Arizmendi)
15. RE: Direction dia-logos (resent) (Dorothy Stulberg)
16. RE: reason-ance, logos-ance (resent) (Dorothy Stulberg)
17. RE: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
(Dorothy Stulberg)
18. Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
(Kathryn Arizmendi)
19. Re: reason-ance, logos-ance (resent) (Don Lay)
20. Re: Direction dia-logos (resent) (Kathryn Arizmendi)
21. Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition (Franis Engel)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 06:53:52 -0400
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Rodger __Intuition. Are you asking about intuition because you have no
personal experience of intuition?
Like photographic memory, intuition does not scientifically exist. In
science, photographic memory exists only by other names, according to the
era you search for it; Eidetic-memory is a present favorite, while
Epidetectorial memory was a previous.
While intuition may not exist, there are many related areas which do --
telekinetic, telepathic, etc.
And in fact I do consider the unique neural cell process in the human
heart
to be part the component of conscience. The trouble is, people always
want
-knowing- defined according to the brain.
To know more about neural cells of the heart: -Basic & Clinical
Neurocardiology, J.A. Armour, J.L. Ardell- describes the heart from a
purely medical standpoint. _R
.
.
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:34:00 -0400
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: No right brain?
To:
.
Did you and the scientist you worked with define intuition?
Where can I find scientific information on ?the hearts own complex
neuronal
processing and memory capabilities.?
What do you mean by ?heart?? For a while, I thought you meant my heart
inside my body pumping blood, but I don?t think so now.
.
.
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 07:10:00 -0400
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: intuition
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Morning, Rodger -
Thanks for the ?heart? reference.
As for ?intuition? - are you referring to these definitions?
in?tu?i?tion n
1. the state of being aware of or knowing something without having to
discover or perceive it, or the ability to do this
2. something known or believed instinctively, without actual evidence for
it
3. immediate knowledge of something
Encarta? World English Dictionary ? 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All
rights
reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
I get hunches (see the book ?Blink?), but I don?t consider that
knowledge.
And when I get a hunch, possibly a variation on the idea of ?theory?, I
don?t consider that knowledge in the sense of scientific fact. It is
definitely something I investigate further.
Also, I?m curious about the subtext of this particular question. I?m
sensing a little abrasiveness below the surface. Hope I?m wrong.
Best, k
On 10/13/06 6:53 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
wrote:
> Rodger __Intuition. Are you asking about intuition because you have no
> personal experience of intuition?
>
> Like photographic memory, intuition does not scientifically exist. In
> science, photographic memory exists only by other names, according to
the era
> you search for it; Eidetic-memory is a present favorite, while
Epidetectorial
> memory was a previous.
>
> While intuition may not exist, there are many related areas which do --
> telekinetic, telepathic, etc.
>
> And in fact I do consider the unique neural cell process in the human
heart to
> be part the component of conscience. The trouble is, people always want
> -knowing- defined according to the brain.
>
> To know more about neural cells of the heart: -Basic & Clinical
> Neurocardiology, J.A. Armour, J.L. Ardell- describes the heart from a
purely
> medical standpoint. _R
> .
> .
> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:34:00 -0400
> From: Kathryn Arizmendi
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: No right brain?
> To:
> .
> Did you and the scientist you worked with define intuition?
>
> Where can I find scientific information on ?the hearts own complex
neuronal
> processing and memory capabilities.?
>
> What do you mean by ?heart?? For a while, I thought you meant my heart
> inside my body pumping blood, but I don?t think so now.
> .
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:25:51 -0400
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] test
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Message-ID: <20061013.082551.3988.28.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
test
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:37:06 -0400
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] test
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Good morning. Is your computer acting up? You got through, if that's the
case.
k
On 10/13/06 8:25 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" wrote:
> test
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:44:49 -0400
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Message-ID: <20061013.084640.3988.33.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm in! Let's work with it.
pat
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" writes:
What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as meaning
reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the meaning?
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment,
to use the idea that logos means meaning?
Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance,
ratio-ance. _R
.
.
From: "Don Lay"
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
To:
.
.
It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona
instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute experience.
Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:45:45 -0400
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Experience dia-logos (resent)
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Message-ID: <20061013.084640.3988.34.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Perhaps it is possible, by way of process-thinking, to actually
experience those processes that determine what we actually are. The
idea is that if/when we know what we are, we might feel much less anxious
and afraid,much less depressed, etc. (don L)
This is my experience. It is the replay and fixations of psychological
thought that depress. (pat)
The Greek word,logos, has been interpreted as meaning. Maybe they means
that what actually or really is somehow meant to be. There is a folk
saying,"It was meant to be." (don L)
How could anything be other, in any given moment, than "what is meant to
be?" (pat)
Also, there's the idea that there is something, some kind of reality
quite other than homo sap social reality, some kind of actuality that has
nothing to do with man's social identity as a mask, persona. (don L)
This is much more than an idea. This can be known, realized. It cannot
be "pinned down" though and nothing can be "pinned down" within it.
(pat)
Is it imaginable? How can it be imagine, how could an image form of that
which is over and against and entirely prior to homo sap? Could it be
something like pure energy ... maybe the power by which particles, waves,
atoms, molecules occur? (Reason-ance? -- Don L)
Words "about" it, just as images "about" it, are expressions of it and
are applicable
only in quite 'momentary' ways, applicable only to the intention of the
moment from
which they come.
pat
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:46:31 -0400
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Direction dia-logos (resent)
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Message-ID: <20061013.084640.3988.35.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
There's the old, old idea of being logos directed. Two millennia ago,
wise men were said to be logos directed. Perhaps PROCESS THOUGHT is a
way to understand that -- not the kind of process philosophy that would
require a prissy PhD to explain -- just everyday knocking around sense.
The idea is that many,many processes must obtain before you can bat an
eye lash, before you can know that you are. (don L)
We unfold and enfold simultaneously. There is nothing else. The "process"
part (regarding self)
is hidden from the "outer" senses but not from the "inner" senses. This
is a "self - aware
movement. It is like musical "movement [where, incidentally, the "outer"
senses do perceive the
simultaneity" of unfoldment / enfoldment]. (pat)
When it became law that everyone must "have a personal identity", somehow
we stopped being wise and started acting and pretending to be the image
associated with the personal identity. That is, we ignore the processes
that we are, by which we interact with the WHOLE and act and pretend
that we are identical with the optical image, the photo image.
Giving careful attention to universal processes, logos, perhaps we can
begin to investigate and perhaps somehow identify with those processes
that actually identify what we are instead of just what the imagery
suggests.
Reason-ance? -- Don Lay
Yes. There seem to be such identity phases or moments - if it could be
called that -
a sense that 'what I am is process or in process'. But it seems that even
this kind
of identification is not necessary - except probably as a means of
attempting to
think and speak of what is happening now in relation to what was
happening when
identity was with images.
pat
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:59:07 -0400
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions?
My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
elaborate more when I?ve sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
incorporate today at CCNY.
Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
principles, we will forge a new path.
Hurray! k
On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" wrote:
> I'm in! Let's work with it.
>
> pat
>
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as meaning
>> reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the meaning?
>>
>>
>>
>> Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions?
>> What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment, to use the
idea
>> that logos means meaning?
>>
>>
>>
>> Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
terms
>> of dia meaning. -- Don L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
>>>
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
>>>
>>> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance,
>>> ratio-ance. _R
>>> .
>>> .
>>> From: "Don Lay"
>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
>>> To:
>>> .
>>> .
>>> It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona
>>> instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute
experience.
>>> Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:06:23 -0400
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] test (re-sent)
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Message-ID: <20061013.090624.3988.36.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Good Morning Kathryn, computer seems find but I got 3 messages this
morning from "the administrator" that my last 3 messages had been
"bounced" from the list. Glad this one got through! I will try to resend
them.
pat
Good morning. Is your computer acting up? You got through, if that's
the
case.
k
On 10/13/06 8:25 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" wrote:
> test
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 07:17:40 -0600
From: "Owen Thomas"
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Experience dia logos
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Message-ID:
<1dde854d0610130617s4af8ce8ek1d43285c0b7f1aa3@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Donl,
Your insight leads to the meetings here in Mexico where we learn to
release
EGO to sense that there is something more, the group thought of Unity in
Diversity.
As you suspect "Also, there's the idea that there is something, some kind
of reality quite other than *homo sap social* reality, some kind of
actuality that has nothing to do with man's social identity as a *mask,
persona*" it is not homo (ego) sap.but a group listening and thinking
together.
On 10/12/06, Don Lay wrote:
>
> Perhaps it is possible, by way of process-thinking, to actually
> experience those processes that determine what we actually are. The
idea
> is that if/when we know what we are, we might feel much less anxious
and
> afraid,much less depressed, etc.
>
> The Greek word,*logos*, has been interpreted as *meaning*. Maybe
*they*means that
> *what actually or really is* somehow *meant to be*. There is a folk
> saying,"*It was meant to be*."
>
> Also, there's the idea that there is something, some kind of reality
> quite other than *homo sap social* reality, some kind of actuality that
> has nothing to do with man's social identity as a *mask, persona*.
>
> Is it *imaginable*? How can it be *imagine**, how could an **image*
form
> of that which is *over and against* and entirely prior to homo sap?
Could
> it be something like pure energy ... maybe the power by which
particles,
> waves, atoms, molecules occur?
>
> Reason-ance? -- Don L
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
--
We are connected
Owen
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:18:50 -0400
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] test (re-sent)
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Mine was acting up a couple of days back, too. Not the same problem, but
frustrating. There seem to be standard messages to computer owners that
indicate a problem without being accurate about its true nature. I'm
upgrading to high speed. I think that was the problem. Maybe you can
figure
out what happened, and find a way to steer clear of it, too. Suerte!, k
On 10/13/06 9:06 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" wrote:
> Good Morning Kathryn, computer seems find but I got 3 messages this
> morning from "the administrator" that my last 3 messages had been
> "bounced" from the list. Glad this one got through! I will try to
resend
> them.
>
> pat
>
>
> Good morning. Is your computer acting up? You got through, if that's
=== message truncated ===
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done
faster.
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From donlay at gte.net Sun Oct 15 03:46:30 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Oct 16 04:44:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
References: <20061014.121042.1588.2.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <00e001c6effb$bd1900c0$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
How can people get past the programming of culture that they are a separate
individuality and why would they want to do that? -- Franis
Maybe we don't actually get past it; don't actually go beyond it: those are
just ways of talking about the situation. What occurs with dialogue is that
awareness seems to increase and "in the grasp" of awareness, it seems we
simply don't do the crazy stuff the way we did before.
The idea is not to stop identifying. The idea is to be aware of when we do
identify such that the awareness solves whatever problems may occur.
Once again, consider that the 'average' addict or alcoholic references their
self around twenty times per minute. When they speak for five minutes,
they usually have referenced their "imaginary self" more than a hundred
times. If you ask them if they did that, they immediately indicate lack of
awareness of it. That seems to be a - problem - identifying without
awareness of doing so ... as well as being unaware of what the identity
does.
Make sense? -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com>
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 3:10 PM
Subject: Re:[Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
> Cool that DonL and Dorothy got to meet in person!
> DonL, to take your idea somewhere... How can people get past the
> programming of culture that they are a separate individuality and why
> would they want to do that?
>
> I find the once you have an identity, it's easier to give it up. That's
> the value of it, IMHO.
>
> Whereas, if you are just there in the undifferentiated state of not
> having an identity, my actions and experience of the world is all so
> undefined and amorphous that I cannot know what actions are influencing
> what results. Things just happen and there is no ability to tell the
> cause and effect so there is no way to quiet myself.
>
> So identity to me is defining your own sense of what effects are your
> responsibility and what belongs to others.
>
> Once a person has been "programmed" by their culture to have an identity,
> people can sort of quiet their actions and gain the ability to put action
> aside and find out what they do that has a result and what does not.
>
> There are many ways of doing this - you can use a way of directing
> attention and manifesting this (formerly merged and unidentified)
> expression of themselves by using an action, a medium, an expression, or
> any action taken to the level of artistic expression. You can listen to
> the culture's definition of individuality - you can go on walk-about.
>
> I'm thinking that not having so much of an identity is much more common
> than you imagine and that you're holding it up to be something valuable
> that it is not - it's just what it is, undifferentiated.
>
> The feeling of being a couple or having sex is a human experience that
> has a sort of loss of personalhood and an experience of merging;
> sometimes the meshing of mother and child or family in general, people
> could experience a merging and a lack of personal identity in that common
> situation. In many other cultures other than the one we're in, people are
> not so driven to discover their individuality, their cause and effect on
> others and the world and they aren't concerned about it.
>
> Identity is a control issue. Courts define identity so they can take away
> these "granted advantages" (of a driver's license, for instance.) Now a
> judge/court will suspend your license for punishments that are completely
> unrelated to your ability to drive a car safely, for instance. This way
> authorities have power over you to get you to give them money and behave
> correctly as defined by societal law. Of course, it still doesn't work,
> it just makes more people further out of control of their lives.
>
> Franis
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:48:16 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>> Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
>> (resent)Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is
>> what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the
>> imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is
>> that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with
>> the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ...
>> without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
>> (resent)
>>
>>
>> Yes! k
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
>> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is
>> the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same
>> juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and
>> Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the
>> proceeds of reason. _R
>> .
>> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>> .
>> .
>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate
>> and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or
>> thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
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>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From donlay at gte.net Sun Oct 15 03:52:04 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Oct 16 04:50:52 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
References: <20061014184936.36829.qmail@web52908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010001c6effc$84098010$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
what is non ultimate? -- K
Maybe that is not ultimate which is without meaning, without intention. Maybe that is only imaginary is not ultimate? -- dbl
----- Original Message -----
From: Karilen Mays
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
ive barely been able to follw this because this talk of ultimate experience is strange...what is not ultimate experience? is it just the point of view that differs? what is non ultimate?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Lay <donlay@gte.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:48:16 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sun Oct 15 04:20:40 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 06:03:55 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.230329.3988.84.ae.dropper@juno.com>
The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity experience derives
from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness to the
personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
This has to do with the "function of thought" about which Bohm has a lot
to say in On Creativity
(and elsewhere.). "We" tend to not be aware of this function (and that
content and function are a single movement) because there is a deep
assumption about thought's function that it is just reporting
"the way things are." Thought as a self-aware movement (proprioceptive
thought) reveals that
thought affects perception and is not simply "reporting."
pat .
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:48:16 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the
Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal
identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal
identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that
direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it
is being done. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
(resent)
Yes! k
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
<Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time.
And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
_______________________________________________
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sun Oct 15 05:03:19 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 06:03:56 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.230329.3988.86.ae.dropper@juno.com>
? certainly the excitement and thrill of responding in the moment to the
unexpected, hitherto unknown aka improvisation. ? (k)
What else is there?
pat
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 12:11:56 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
On 10/14/06 11:59 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
What about
"the
ongoing and absolute absence of "finality."
as the rhythm of being i.e. the cycle of change that encompasses birth,
life, death, and possibly being recycled ? certainly the excitement and
thrill of responding in the moment to the unexpected, hitherto unknown
aka improvisation. ?
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sun Oct 15 04:11:55 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 06:03:57 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.230329.3988.83.ae.dropper@juno.com>
This is beautiful Kathryn. Pure and Passionate Poetry.
Thank Goodness for your keyboard.
Thank Goodness for my little dance floor.
The "outer" senses can also perceive simultaneous unfolding/enfolding
watching the tips of waves moving across the sea.
pat
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:53 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
I spent the last two days researching improvisation practices and their
history in European music. I am not a poet, but I was so fed up, the
words below had almost completely written themselves by the time the bus
got me home. I offer it as another pov in the discussion we are having.
DIALOG
1,006 years of life measured in semi breves, breves,
metrics, scales ? and in the length of a single breath
bound inside the covers of books, living in the basements of libraries.
Laughter, llanto, cante jondo codified, labelled ?ornaments?;
told by an ?authority? how loud and how long to scream-sob-murmur-and
whisper ?I love you?.
La music es el alma del pueblo y el alma es inmortal!
No, Music, the soul of the people, is fragmented, dissected, ordered ?in
good taste? by psychiatrists, politicians, clergymen, heads of state, and
musicologists ? all well meaning ? as far as they can see. How far is
that?
Improvisation is verboten ? it?s too spontaneous! It means freedom. Not
freedom ? anarchy! Then where would be be?
Can you prepare for an improv session? Yes, but you have to strip your
layers down to below flesh and bone, expose the beating heart, throw away
the precise measurements, the dynamic markings in musical scores, and the
?tasteful execution? of ?ornaments?. And above all, plug your ears and
eyes up to the theorist-authorities. And FEEL! Put that in your
instrument and play and sing and dance it.
Can the natural order manifest again? I don?t know. We think theories
and speculations and culturally conditioned prejudices is truth, and have
no idea that?s what we think.
Then I come home and reread:
We unfold and enfold simultaneously. There is nothing else. The "process"
part (regarding self) is hidden from the "outer" senses but not from the
"inner" senses. This is a "self ? aware movement. It is like musical
"movement [where, incidentally, the "outer" senses do perceive the
simultaneity" of unfoldment / enfoldment]. (pat)
I turn to the keyboard.
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
<Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time.
And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Sun Oct 15 05:00:38 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 06:03:58 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061014.230329.3988.85.ae.dropper@juno.com>
This is WONDERFUL! (I've been "collecting" Trinities all my life. They
are Everywhere! Used to write them all down. They are somewhere around
here - heaven knows where). I asked a music major friend about this stuff
below and got enough of a sense to be very appreciative. I have played a
little self - taught keyboard and guitar so get a sense through that as
well. Thanks for this!
pat
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:57:45 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
In music, we have what Mathieu calls ?Three Chord Music?. The tonic as
monad, which oddly enough, was (in overtone structure) begat in the
overtone series by the Subdominant aka fourth tone of the scale (a folded
over structure of overtones), and the Dominant, the fifth tone. The
Tonic is balance and hozhoon, the Subdominant is aptly called ?ma? in
Indian (not American) theory and is Yin, the Dominant is ?Pa? - the most
aggressive, dissonant, and Yang of the scale tones. That progression I <
IV < V > I is the basis of all music, and enfolded into the scale.
I?ve tucked that plus your ?Trinity? into my body-mind computer, to see
what connections may be there. Dialog would be welcome and appreciated
on that topic. k
On 10/14/06 10:28 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
When I look at Meaning as a member of the Matter, Energy, Meaning
"Trinity,"
a very meaningful interpretation in relation to Ultimacy comes easily.
Energy is the first "member" from which Matter [second "member"] proceeds
and Meaning [as the third "member"] "reunites" Energy and Matter. They
are one. The "two" are one. Energy IS Matter. [Einstein was a mystic,
no?] And, the "three" are one. Energy IS Matter IS Meaning. This is
quite meaningful as well.
This generalization of all this translates immediately
to an experience of ultimacy.
This also translates into a general "meaning of life."
And here again, meaning also works well as identical
with my sense of "logos" (as in dia-logos).
Interestingly though, here (in this trinity) "logos" becomes
the third person [member] of the trinity where in the Roman version
"logos" is the "second person {member]."
pat
On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? -- D.
What about meaning? It seems easy to see that definitions are
arbitrary. Is it easy to see that meaning is not, that there is
something ultimate about meaning. For example, dark clouds mean rain.
Thick bark on the North side of a tree may mean a cold winter is on the
way.
Is the meaning of dark clouds as ultimate as is energy and matter? Is
the meaning of heavier bark on the North side of a tree as fundamental,
as ultimate as matter and energy?
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker
bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Dorothy Stulberg <mailto:DStulberg@msw-law.com>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? D.
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Arizmendi
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions?
My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
elaborate more when I?ve sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
incorporate today at CCNY.
Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
principles, we will forge a new path.
Hurray! k
On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
I'm in! Let's work with it.
pat
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as
meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the
meaning?
Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an experiment,
to use the idea that logos means meaning?
Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance,
ratio-ance. _R
.
.
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona
instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute
experience. Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Sun Oct 15 05:34:18 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Mon Oct 16 06:32:50 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
In-Reply-To: <20061014.213737.3988.76.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C157085A.7854%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Identification is a moving and expanding/shrinking
> sort of thing. It is also a leaping and jumping sort of thing. Always
> based though on "I AM this." And the "this" is based on a thought
or image. (Pat)
I love this image! My new grandson, according to Piaget, was born in that
undifferentiated state, but is even now in the process of working out
differentiation. We all start there, and if all goes well, proceed to
create an identity for ourselves, which (again, if all goes well) continues
to get challenged by experience and recreated many times in a lifetime.
Mine continues to rearrange itself (more & more lately), which I find quite
fascinating. I guess it has happened enough I don?t freak out any more, &
can enjoy the ride & the feeling of expansiveness.
Lynne
On 10/14/06 7:18 PM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking that not having so much of an identity is much more common
> than you imagine and that you're holding it up to be something valuable
> that it is not - it's just what it is, undifferentiated. (franis)
>
> This "identity," or "identification (this felt {and sorely limited}
> sense of a most likely wordless "I am that") with a thought, concept, image,"
> is not directly apparent, at least not initially. It becomes apparent
> through [informed] defensive and protective feelings that appear reflexively
> upon meeting a "threat" to whatever the worded/imaged object
> in thought, is.
>
> [Collective] thoughts about personal self's constituents ("psychological
> thoughts") have a very short shelf life [little attachment] if there is no
> "personal me" image to attach these to. The thoughts may or may not occur,
> but they are not defended, protected. (pat)
>
> The feeling of being a couple or having sex is a human experience that
> has a sort of loss of personalhood and an experience of merging;
> sometimes the meshing of mother and child or family in general, people
> could experience a merging and a lack of personal identity in that common
> situation. (Franis)
>
> Yes, these fleeting sensations of oneness are the perks
> of personal identity images. There is either the anticipation
> or the satisfaction. For anticipation, the sense of separation
> needs to be re-established. (pat)
>
> Whereas, if you are just there in the undifferentiated state of not
> having an identity, my actions and experience of the world is all so
> undefined and amorphous that I cannot know what actions are influencing
> what results. Things just happen and there is no ability to tell the
> cause and effect so there is no way to quiet myself. (franis)
>
> Would this now be posited as the only alternative to my
> above description? Identification is a moving and expanding/shrinking
> sort of thing. It is also a leaping and jumping sort of thing. Always
> based though on "I AM this." And the "this" is based on a thought
> or image. Identity means Identical. The moments of defended
> personal identity are moments where self is experienced
> as a savagely limited fragment.
>
> We cannot say or think what we are or "would be" without 'being Being
> based on a thought'. But we can know what we are without 'being Being
> based on a thought. We do it all the time. It occurs in all those [fluid]
> moments that there is no reflexive defense or protection of image
> [thought] happening. That's all it is. And one still knows the
> difference between me and a tree. What is this "undifferentiated"
> state? I don't think I've ever experienced it. It would not seem to be
> something that could even BE experienced. Who would experience it?
>
> pat
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cool that DonL and Dorothy got to meet in person!
> DonL, to take your idea somewhere... How can people get past the
> programming of culture that they are a separate individuality and why
> would they want to do that?
>
> I find the once you have an identity, it's easier to give it up. That's
> the value of it, IMHO.
>
> Whereas, if you are just there in the undifferentiated state of not
> having an identity, my actions and experience of the world is all so
> undefined and amorphous that I cannot know what actions are influencing
> what results. Things just happen and there is no ability to tell the
> cause and effect so there is no way to quiet myself.
>
> So identity to me is defining your own sense of what effects are your
> responsibility and what belongs to others.
>
> Once a person has been "programmed" by their culture to have an identity,
> people can sort of quiet their actions and gain the ability to put action
> aside and find out what they do that has a result and what does not.
>
> There are many ways of doing this - you can use a way of directing
> attention and manifesting this (formerly merged and unidentified)
> expression of themselves by using an action, a medium, an expression, or
> any action taken to the level of artistic expression. You can listen to
> the culture's definition of individuality - you can go on walk-about.
>
> I'm thinking that not having so much of an identity is much more common
> than you imagine and that you're holding it up to be something valuable
> that it is not - it's just what it is, undifferentiated.
>
> The feeling of being a couple or having sex is a human experience that
> has a sort of loss of personalhood and an experience of merging;
> sometimes the meshing of mother and child or family in general, people
> could experience a merging and a lack of personal identity in that common
> situation. In many other cultures other than the one we're in, people are
> not so driven to discover their individuality, their cause and effect on
> others and the world and they aren't concerned about it.
>
> Identity is a control issue. Courts define identity so they can take away
> these "granted advantages" (of a driver's license, for instance.) Now a
> judge/court will suspend your license for punishments that are completely
> unrelated to your ability to drive a car safely, for instance. This way
> authorities have power over you to get you to give them money and behave
> correctly as defined by societal law. Of course, it still doesn't work,
> it just makes more people further out of control of their lives.
>
> Franis
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:48:16 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>> > Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
>> > (resent)Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is
>> > what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the
>> > imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is
>> > that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with
>> > the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ...
>> > without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Kathryn Arizmendi
>> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
>> > (resent)
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes! k
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
>> > <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is
>> > the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same
>> > juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and
>> > Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the
>> > proceeds of reason. _R
>> > .
>> > Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
>> > From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>> > To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>> > .
>> > .
>> > Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate
>> > and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>> > What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or
>> > thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>> >
>> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Sun Oct 15 05:35:52 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Mon Oct 16 06:34:20 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Message-ID: <20061015033552.98598.qmail@web52912.mail.yahoo.com>
I question whether what is imaginary is without meaning.
Kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Lay <donlay@gte.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:52:04 PM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
what is non ultimate? -- K
Maybe that is not ultimate which is without meaning, without intention. Maybe that is only imaginary is not ultimate? -- dbl
----- Original Message -----
From: Karilen Mays
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
ive barely been able to follw this because this talk of ultimate experience is strange...what is not ultimate experience? is it just the point of view that differs? what is non ultimate?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Lay <donlay@gte.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:48:16 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
_______________________________________________
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sun Oct 15 11:25:04 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 12:23:42 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Taking leave for a while
Message-ID: <c54.5220477.32635870@aol.com>
Hi all,
Due to a major loss of data in my PC, I need to unscubscribe from this list
for a while. Just wanted to let you know and will be back when I can.
Mark
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Sun Oct 15 13:16:22 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 14:15:10 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] LOGOS-Intuition
In-Reply-To: <20061016100005.012F023D6D@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF5BA98E6B.D2924425-ON85257208.003C78D5-85257208.003DECA5@dialogos.com>
Rodger __Indeed, you did already explain this before, and I not only agreed
but assumed it foundational to what I wrote. In the same way that accessing
vocabulary and typing is a foundation to communicating this email.
The tools for interpreting awareness of ones experience in the present
moment are an essential. But I was not refering to the tools, I was
refering to original thought. _R
.
.
.From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] LOGOS-Intuition
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
#2 ? reason, genius and inspiration play their parts in composed as well as
improvised music.
.
.
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 14:35:47 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 15:34:28 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Taking leave for a while
In-Reply-To: <c54.5220477.32635870@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C157A363.3861%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Gosh Mark ? Sorry to see you go. Come back soon. k
On 10/15/06 5:25 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Due to a major loss of data in my PC, I need to unscubscribe from this list
> for a while. Just wanted to let you know and will be back when I can.
>
> Mark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 14:45:34 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 15:44:10 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] LOGOS-Intuition
In-Reply-To: <OF5BA98E6B.D2924425-ON85257208.003C78D5-85257208.003DECA5@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C157A5AE.3864%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
On 10/15/06 7:16 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> The tools for interpreting awareness of ones experience in the present moment
> are an essential.
>
> Morning Rodger -
>
> The language, tools and strategies do more than interpret awareness of one?s
> experience in the present moment. Am I interpreting your sentence
> incorrectly? Are you saying ?The language, tools and strategies do more than
> interpret in the present moment, awareness of one?s experience? Even so,
> awareness is only one step, and a fairly early one.
>
> best, k
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 14:47:51 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 15:46:27 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061015033552.98598.qmail@web52912.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C157A637.3865%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
I would argue that what is imaginary is certainly WITH meaning.
Unfortunately, I don?t have much time this morning. Deepak Chopra is
appearing here today, and I have to get going shortly. k
On 10/14/06 11:35 PM, "Karilen Mays" <tubakari@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I question whether what is imaginary is without meaning.
> Kari
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Don Lay <donlay@gte.net>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:52:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>
> what is non ultimate? -- K
>
> Maybe that is not ultimate which is without meaning, without intention. Maybe
> that is only imaginary is not ultimate? -- dbl
>
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Karilen Mays <mailto:tubakari@yahoo.com>
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>
>> ive barely been able to follw this because this talk of ultimate experience
>> is strange...what is not ultimate experience? is it just the point of view
>> that differs? what is non ultimate?
>>
>> kari
>>
>>
>>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Don Lay <donlay@gte.net>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 6:48:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>
> Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the
> Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal
> identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity
> experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness
> to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don
> L
>
>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 15:00:14 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 15:58:58 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061014.230329.3988.85.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C157A91E.3867%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
If I were able to show you the rest in Dalcrozian terms, it would have even
more meaning. You would find a movement through space + a gesture that
would embody the movement of the tones together with their distinctive
energy qualities. Harmony is simultaneously horizontal and vertical i.e.
the tones of the triad set up sound fields, and the linear design of the
melody is realized through one of those ?embellishments? called passing
tones. Filling in the scale tones between the chord tones. You would find
a way to move those tones with another part of your body while you realize
the basic triads. Or, you could do this in ensemble. And ? the movers
would sing while moving. Some could play their instruments while moving.
The playing and singing reflects the various degrees of tension and
relaxation through dynamics, accent, and rhythm. This is only the
beginning, but if you have a little space, I hope you try it out. k
On 10/14/06 11:00 PM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> This is WONDERFUL! (I've been "collecting" Trinities all my life. They are
> Everywhere! Used to write them all down. They are somewhere around here -
> heaven knows where). I asked a music major friend about this stuff below and
> got enough of a sense to be very appreciative. I have played a little self -
> taught keyboard and guitar so get a sense through that as well. Thanks for
> this!
>
> pat
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:57:45 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> writes:
>>
>> In music, we have what Mathieu calls ?Three Chord Music?. The tonic as
>> monad, which oddly enough, was (in overtone structure) begat in the overtone
>> series by the Subdominant aka fourth tone of the scale (a folded over
>> structure of overtones), and the Dominant, the fifth tone. The Tonic is
>> balance and hozhoon, the Subdominant is aptly called ?ma? in Indian (not
>> American) theory and is Yin, the Dominant is ?Pa? - the most aggressive,
>> dissonant, and Yang of the scale tones. That progression I < IV < V > I is
>> the basis of all music, and enfolded into the scale.
>>
>> I?ve tucked that plus your ?Trinity? into my body-mind computer, to see what
>> connections may be there. Dialog would be welcome and appreciated on that
>> topic. k
>>
>>
>> On 10/14/06 10:28 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>
>> When I look at Meaning as a member of the Matter, Energy, Meaning "Trinity,"
>> a very meaningful interpretation in relation to Ultimacy comes easily.
>> Energy is the first "member" from which Matter [second "member"] proceeds
>> and Meaning [as the third "member"] "reunites" Energy and Matter. They are
>> one. The "two" are one. Energy IS Matter. [Einstein was a mystic, no?] And,
>> the "three" are one. Energy IS Matter IS Meaning. This is quite meaningful
>> as well.
>>
>> This generalization of all this translates immediately
>> to an experience of ultimacy.
>>
>> This also translates into a general "meaning of life."
>> And here again, meaning also works well as identical
>> with my sense of "logos" (as in dia-logos).
>>
>> Interestingly though, here (in this trinity) "logos" becomes
>> the third person [member] of the trinity where in the Roman version
>> "logos" is the "second person {member]."
>>
>> pat
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary definitions?
>>> -- D.
>>>
>>>
>>> What about meaning? It seems easy to see that definitions are arbitrary.
>>> Is it easy to see that meaning is not, that there is something ultimate
>>> about meaning. For example, dark clouds mean rain. Thick bark on the
>>> North side of a tree may mean a cold winter is on the way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is the meaning of dark clouds as ultimate as is energy and matter? Is the
>>> meaning of heavier bark on the North side of a tree as fundamental, as
>>> ultimate as matter and energy?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
>>> prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Dorothy Stulberg <mailto:DStulberg@msw-law.com>
>>>>
>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 6:05 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> is there any question that words have temporary and arbitrary
>>>> definitions? D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
>>>> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Kathryn
>>>> Arizmendi
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:59 AM
>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
>>>> definitions?
>>>>
>>>> My research yesterday on improvisation definitely bears this out. Will
>>>> elaborate more when I?ve sorted out my notes, and have more to take and
>>>> incorporate today at CCNY.
>>>>
>>>> Preliminary findings are that by the application of Bohm ideas and
>>>> principles, we will forge a new path.
>>>>
>>>> Hurray! k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/13/06 8:44 AM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm in! Let's work with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> pat
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:23:15 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does it mean that the Greek logos has been interpreted as
>>>>>> meaning reason? as meaning Ratio? as meaning meaning? What is the
>>>>>> meaning?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could it possibly mean that words have temporary and arbitrary
>>>>>> definitions? What would happen if we decided, for just an
>>>>>> experiment, to use the idea that logos means meaning?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then perhaps we could seriously consider dialogue as dia meaning or in
>>>>>> terms of dia meaning. -- Don L
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:05 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: reason-ance, logos-ance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rodger __Lead the way Don. Tell us about Reason-ance, logos-ance,
>>>>>>> ratio-ance. _R
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
>>>>>>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> It seems to me that so long as we continue talking about the persona
>>>>>>> instead of instead of the processes, we continue to pollute
>>>>>>> experience. Reason-ance, logos-ance, ratio-ance? -- Don L
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> info:
>>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>>
>>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sun Oct 15 15:01:21 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Mon Oct 16 15:59:58 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
In-Reply-To: <20061014.230329.3988.83.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C157A961.3868%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Glad you liked it, Pat. k
On 10/14/06 10:11 PM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> This is beautiful Kathryn. Pure and Passionate Poetry.
> Thank Goodness for your keyboard.
> Thank Goodness for my little dance floor.
>
> The "outer" senses can also perceive simultaneous unfolding/enfolding
> watching the tips of waves moving across the sea.
>
> pat
>
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:40:53 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> writes:
>>
>> I spent the last two days researching improvisation practices and their
>> history in European music. I am not a poet, but I was so fed up, the words
>> below had almost completely written themselves by the time the bus got me
>> home. I offer it as another pov in the discussion we are having.
>>
>
> DIALOG
>
> 1,006 years of life measured in semi breves, breves,
> metrics, scales ? and in the length of a single breath
> bound inside the covers of books, living in the basements of libraries.
>
> Laughter, llanto, cante jondo codified, labelled ?ornaments?;
> told by an ?authority? how loud and how long to scream-sob-murmur-and whisper
> ?I love you?.
>
> La music es el alma del pueblo y el alma es inmortal!
>
> No, Music, the soul of the people, is fragmented, dissected, ordered ?in good
> taste? by psychiatrists, politicians, clergymen, heads of state, and
> musicologists ? all well meaning ? as far as they can see. How far is that?
>
> Improvisation is verboten ? it?s too spontaneous! It means freedom. Not
> freedom ? anarchy! Then where would be be?
>
> Can you prepare for an improv session? Yes, but you have to strip your
> layers down to below flesh and bone, expose the beating heart, throw away the
> precise measurements, the dynamic markings in musical scores, and the
> ?tasteful execution? of ?ornaments?. And above all, plug your ears and eyes
> up to the theorist-authorities. And FEEL! Put that in your instrument and
> play and sing and dance it.
>
> Can the natural order manifest again? I don?t know. We think theories and
> speculations and culturally conditioned prejudices is truth, and have no idea
> that?s what we think.
>
> Then I come home and reread:
>
> We unfold and enfold simultaneously. There is nothing else. The "process"
> part (regarding self) is hidden from the "outer" senses but not from the
> "inner" senses. This is a "self ? aware movement. It is like musical
> "movement [where, incidentally, the "outer" senses do perceive the
> simultaneity" of unfoldment / enfoldment]. (pat)
>
> I turn to the keyboard.
>
>
>
> On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way
>> this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And
>> how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones
>> experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
>> .
>> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
>> From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>> .
>> .
>> Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as
>> meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
>> What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark
>> prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
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>>
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>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
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>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
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>
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From donlay at gte.net Sun Oct 15 15:02:47 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Oct 16 16:01:23 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Imaginary Identity [was reason-ance,
logos-ance (resent)]
References: <20061014.230329.3988.84.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <009701c6f05a$36d17f60$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)Yes ... the problem or situation of raw perception regarding that which is, the TRUTH. It appears that what actually is must be interpreted; the experience of perception needs looking at. It needs to be held in consciousness and looked at for propriety, good or bad, perhaps tested in imagination for consequences.
Imagining one scenario produces one set of FEELS (DB); imagining differently produces a different set of FEELS. Bohm addresses this situation or problem of imagination in a number of places. Here identity plays a crucial role. For identifying, imagining our self one way produces one set of FEELS and imagining, identifying differently produces different FEELS.
Some people say that thought or imagining matters (becomes matter) in that first there is thought or imagination of a building and then the blue print plans and then the actual construction of the building. In this way cities, perhaps even civilizations are constructed.
B and K ask: Where did civilization take a wrong turn. Many, many people ask the same question respecting their selves, their lives. Where did I go wrong?
Seems to me Bohm and K seriously suggest that lack of awareness is the answer -- not lack of awareness of the imagined, imaginary self (ego??)-- rather, there is lack of awareness that the self-identity itself is identity with an image!
Image identity, imaginary identity occurs reflexively with words and without awareness, without PROPRIOCEPTION, according to my understanding of Bohm. Words are images. A word is an image! And there is no awareness, no PROPRIOCEPTION regarding what identity with an image does. That is, there is little or no awareness of function because content and function have somehow become split or separated in the imagination (On Creativity).
Resonance? Don L
The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
This has to do with the "function of thought" about which Bohm has a lot to say in On Creativity
(and elsewhere.). "We" tend to not be aware of this function (and that content and function are a single movement) because there is a deep assumption about thought's function that it is just reporting
"the way things are." Thought as a self-aware movement (proprioceptive thought) reveals that
thought affects perception and is not simply "reporting."
pat .
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:48:16 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes:
Kathryn, then don't we say that 'ultimate experience' is what the Parmenides/Heracllitus called logos -- rather than the imaginary personal identity experience? The idea I'm working on is that the personal identity experience derives from or occurs with the use of words that direct awareness to the personal identity ... without awareness that it is being done. -- Don L
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
Yes! k
On 10/14/06 8:32 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com> wrote:
Rodger __What is interesting to me about logos & inspiration, is the way this dialogue gave rise to the two topics at the same juncture in time. And how the relationship between Logos and Intuition is what takes ones experience of MEANING beyond the proceeds of reason. _R
.
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:37 -0400
From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
.
Is there some kind of experience in homo-sap that is as ultimate and as meaningful as dark clouds and thick bark?
What is human experience is as meaningful as storm clouds or thicker bark prior to severe winter}? -- Don L
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Sun Oct 15 15:05:26 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Mon Oct 16 16:04:15 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
In-Reply-To: <20061016100005.012F023D6D@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OFACFF99A8.2341C96A-ON85257208.00400F88-85257208.0047E8EE@dialogos.com>
Rodger __The habit of measuring experience according to personal ideas
about relevance = ultimate & not ultimate.
Having said that, I think vocal intonation, the sounds in a persons voice,
cause a variant of MEANINGS in words spoken.
And LOGOS is about spoken word carries inspirations that cause revelation
-- experience of MEANING.
simplest examples are;
- range of MEANINGS in lyrics of a song, depending on who speaks or sings
those lyrics.
- the results of an instruction issued, not by way of the words used, but
according to who issues the instruction.
In both cases, when the same words are verbally delivered to the same
audience -- aside from learned skills bringing forth learned responses,
there is a another range of MEANING in accordance to the sound of the
actual person within the voice.
Beyond skills mastered, there is a sound of -awareness-. And a sound of
when inner-thought has moved from superficial persona or conventional
thought, to an increasing experience of ones origin, or original thought.
The latter voice is more likely to lift a listener into inspiration -- even
trigger some revelations -- though the occasion may be rare.
That we speak words is a wonder it is our magic tool. But I doubt speaking
words is the MEANING of Logos.
That we have a hammer & chisel is not the same as doing the woodwork - even
if we make noises banging the hammer on wood.
MEANING is in everything yes, but LOGOS is specific to the music of
conscious-awareness being conveyed in the sound of words and pauses._R
.
.
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance
(resent)
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
.
what is non ultimate?
kari
.
.
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From donlay at gte.net Sun Oct 15 15:21:09 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Oct 16 16:20:13 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
References: <C157A637.3865%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00db01c6f05c$c768f600$a503a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)The statement is: "Maybe that is only imaginary is not ultimate? -- dbl". Repeat: what is ONLY imaginary is not ultimate.
I believe Owen Barfield and Bohm say that which is ONLY IMAGINATION is fancy, fantasy. The suggestion is that people have great difficulty who do not differentiate between what is ONLY imagined and what actually is. Again, those without proprioception -- without awareness -- have great difficulty.
Those with no awareness that tas, "THE MIND" is always churning out propositions, some appropriate and some highly inappropriate, are liable to act and pretend the actuality of whatever tas tells them. The problem is that tas is faulty, has a fault. -- Bohm ... Thought as a System.
dbl
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] reason-ance, logos-ance (resent)
I would argue that what is imaginary is certainly WITH meaning. Unfortunately, I don't have mu