From a.debakey at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 00:16:06 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Mon Dec 17 00:22:02 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SELF, SOCIETY AND PROPRIOCEPTION
In-Reply-To: <20071216.090913.3184.47.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <617185.48182.qm@web45815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
funny doesn't web.
Funny, on 2ndought, no problem. Look: ?PNG IHDR X O
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A??~wo?2??:M{?3?n??????~ld+??1W??B??k??Hw??mh????Sh???/?>}???m?!?????iE???B????????P!1?i? C+ (x??D?DT???TVy>???????o??7??
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9OBm+9??bLa???T???y??,?Q?a0????]?[,?v???z?#;K?T?R?U-,S:? G?tD??????P... n so on.... guss yu gt te pixtr
ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
funny doesn't web.
-- funny
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:51:54 -0800 (PST) "Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com> writes:
o _ _ _ k
http://tinyurl.com/232orj
f _ _ _ i
ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
A piece of writing to end all reading.
-- funny
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:33:33 -0800 (PST) "Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com> writes:
Here is a description of the strangest organism I ever had. It was
inspired by the idea of women doing leg lifts in a roman
chair. Extreme exertion. Now add cold, electricity and fear...
Scene. Mountains. After a few hours of hiking to well over twelve
thousand feet, cross country, (from Big Pine, Fifth Lake to Jigsaw
pass eastside, Sierra Neveda), the sky getting darker and darker as
vast thunderheads roil over the high remote pass that over looks
Bishop Pass just at mid-day. Cold wind blowing. Hadn't seen anybody
for hours---been up and hiking since early morning. Place looks like
some desolate scene in Prometheus Bound, in the Caucasus. Here is
the view looking back at the descent: Look::
I stop to figure out how to descend. The cliff at the edge is steep,
and just barely angled back enough to carefully pick my way down third
class about seven hundred of feet of various gullies with scree to a high
plateau and Bishop pass below with the regular trail to Dusy
Basin. The veiw is spectacular, wind rushing up the face.
Very scary. I am standing at the pass looking down. Wind blowing,
darkness at noon. Suddenly all my skin is tingling, crawling like I
was afraid, or something. Weird electric things are dancing around my
balls and pubic hair. I can't stand it, and open my pants to pee or
something. I try peeing. Nothing. My penis seems to be crawling around
on its own, semi-hard. I realize I am having an organism and a wad of
cum splats out on the rocks.
Never seen that before. Now I am really freaked out. All my hair is
standing on end and ant-like electric charges are crawling all over
me. I finally figure it out. I am in a extreme electrically charged
area, and lightening is going to strike here. The potentials are
building up. I am right in the middle of an electric storm.
God almighty. I just slide down the first fifty feet into the steep
gully, almost straight down into a series of corners and drops. I
can't get down one section, so I lower my backpack on a nylon cord,
and climb down. I am scrambling to get down lower. I am cowering near
the gully face when a gigantic explosion hits about five hundred feet
below and a hundred yards out from my wet, cold stance. The light is
so bright, I can see the bolt as an electric purple after image
with my eyes open. I jump in a complete panic and scream. Gotta get
down. Then I find a place that is more secure, less exposed and I pull
out an ensolite pad and sit on it, and try to relax. I can't relax. I
try to light a cigarette and it just crumbles in my shaking fingers. I
am quivering like an animal about to be slaughtered. The smell of
ozone is extreme, like cooked relays.
I can't sit still, so I try to get down slowly,... Another smaller
bolt cuts loose like a mortar exploding below, leaving a smoking spot
on wet rocks. Several more strikes below, with long standing
branches. More steam and ozone, more jumping and screaming, more
creepy crawly feelings. More icy rain and hale that I barely feel.
Finally get off the steep cliff and race to a low ravine. The worst of
the storm is over. In the distance some other hikers are standing
around a small fire drying off and chatting. (Long before prohibitions
against wood fires, early seventies)
Never been more scared in my entire life, or scared for so long. It
must have more than two or three hours of terror. When I finally look
at my watch, it is well after three. The day is over, as if it never
happened.
And oof again.
--funny
ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
No time (a thought, too) to pursue this now. Bigger fish to fry, smaller shoes to fill. AL
And another foot[s] of snow.
-- funny
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:24:09 -0800 (PST) Alfred Landman <landmana@yahoo.com> writes:
Hi Don Lay. Venezuelan Interior Minister Pedro Carreno was momentarily at a loss for words when a journalist interrupted his speech and asked if it was not contradictory to criticize capitalism while wearing Gucci shoes and a tie made by Parisian luxury goods maker Louis Vuitton. Thought can BE funny. Thought can DO funny things (incl "funnies"). Zum bei-spiel, spiel being (doing) "play": Take, for example, Pedro -- one Predro. That is ("one") thought right there. Then Carreno, "another". Minister is a thought, too. So is venezuelan. Many thought, folks, many, munch. I, another yet, wants to focus on this, tho: The throught for one Pedro to do revolution AND to do luxury goods at the same time. Now, this is A thought..... No time (a thought, too) to pursue this now. Bigger fish to fry, smaller shoes to fill. AL
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
Is it necessity that a POV be identified?
Is it necessity that POV be personified? Is there such a thing as a POV without identity? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan E. DeBakey
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] SELF, SOCIETY AND PROPRIOCEPTION
It is (a bit) like with those tricki POVs:
The more you can get (keep!) up (& down!!), the wilder the "ride" (trip)
http://tinyurl.com/yqo3k3
-- funny
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
Well you had me fooled. Talk about acting and pretending.
don
On Dec 15, 2007, at 2:28 PM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote:
Cheers funni, n kiip it comin.... this here just a qucki:
http://thinkg.net/david_bohm/self_society_proprioception.html
"Gotta" run, ovr to the bigg bois to plai wth, and (un)do som serius wrk.
Ala n
Ps: Let me know if you like so see some changes (colors, fonts, sizes.... - realli just a draft)
Pss: When did you publish the others xerpts?
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
Terrific! My sentiments eggsactly.
don
On Dec 15, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Alan E. DeBakey wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/v/6gmP4nk0EOE
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 00:38:37 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Mon Dec 17 00:44:32 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SELF, SOCIETY AND PROPRIOCEPTION
In-Reply-To: <617185.48182.qm@web45815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <631198.34361.qm@web45801.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
funny doesn't http://www.themeatrix1.com/meatrix.swf ?
A, Horse(Meat)Lover
__>
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From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 02:13:27 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 02:19:21 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <BLU109-W40FE06935818AAAA01465FB7610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <003801c8404a$07f4f230$b5c16018@DL01>
The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. -- Regina quote
On the view that exist means to stand out, we say that concrete existence stands out in "our" awareness and in "our thought".
Might this suggest a feedback loop driven by endorphin-like pleasure? -- dl
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 02:33:15 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 02:39:04 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <BLU109-W40FE06935818AAAA01465FB7610@phx.gbl>
<003801c8404a$07f4f230$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <004701c8404c$cbc55ae0$b5c16018@DL01>
Does this suggest anything about the Copenhagen Theory ... that might have motivated Bohm to seriously question the nature of self and begin making radical suggestions or proposals regarding identity?
What might those people have been standing under that made them speak of a homo-sapo's consciousness collapsing wave functions? -- dl
The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. -- Regina quote
On the view that exist means to stand out, we say that concrete existence stands out in "our" awareness and in "our thought".
Might this suggest a feedback loop driven by endorphin-like pleasure? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. -- Regina quote
On the view that exist means to stand out, we say that concrete existence stands out in "our" awareness and in "our thought".
Might this suggest a feedback loop driven by endorphin-like pleasure? -- dl
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 02:42:56 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 02:48:45 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <BLU109-W40FE06935818AAAA01465FB7610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <005601c8404e$26286f30$b5c16018@DL01>
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true? -- Regina
If we consider implicate/explicate order as proposed as a view for exploration, the idea of true/false might not arise. Rather, what questions does the I/O Order answer, what problems of thought does it solve?
Similarly, what questions and problems, etc., are addressed by Sufism? Maybe the anxiety regarding homo-sappo's personal existence are addressed by Sufism.
Maybe the same is true of re Buddhism. But, what's the trade-off? Does it come down to who's willing to sit around all day saying ohmmmmm, etc., i.e., surrendering self for the nothingness pleasure of having no anxiety about death and dying, etc? - dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 02:48:41 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 02:54:31 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <BLU109-W40FE06935818AAAA01465FB7610@phx.gbl>
<005601c8404e$26286f30$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <007701c8404e$f3c1cbd0$b5c16018@DL01>
A few drunks, after closing the local tavern, stopped by Ben Johnson's house one night, threw pebbles against a second story window until Johnson woke and raised the window.
"Hey Ben", they cried. "Tell us a pun."
"A pun", he asked? "A-pun what subject?"
(Or was it Samuel?) -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true? -- Regina
If we consider implicate/explicate order as proposed as a view for exploration, the idea of true/false might not arise. Rather, what questions does the I/O Order answer, what problems of thought does it solve?
Similarly, what questions and problems, etc., are addressed by Sufism? Maybe the anxiety regarding homo-sappo's personal existence are addressed by Sufism.
Maybe the same is true of re Buddhism. But, what's the trade-off? Does it come down to who's willing to sit around all day saying ohmmmmm, etc., i.e., surrendering self for the nothingness pleasure of having no anxiety about death and dying, etc? - dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 03:11:36 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Mon Dec 17 03:17:34 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I.... Order
In-Reply-To: <005601c8404e$26286f30$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <9033.40284.qm@web45810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
....come down to who's willing to sit around all day saying ohmmmmm, etc., ...
Ever tried bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbohm, Donlay? Might (un)do the trick-truck-stuck ;-)
Alan
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
.hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true? -- Regina
If we consider implicate/explicate order as proposed as a view for exploration, the idea of true/false might not arise. Rather, what questions does the I/O Order answer, what problems of thought does it solve?
Similarly, what questions and problems, etc., are addressed by Sufism? Maybe the anxiety regarding homo-sappo's personal existence are addressed by Sufism.
Maybe the same is true of re Buddhism. But, what's the trade-off? Does it come down to who's willing to sit around all day saying ohmmmmm, etc., i.e., surrendering self for the nothingness pleasure of having no anxiety about death and dying, etc? - dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in
the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of
Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
---------------------------------
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 03:14:56 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Mon Dec 17 03:20:52 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Iorder
In-Reply-To: <9033.40284.qm@web45810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <626724.40762.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Talking about dobeing some think for a loooooooong ti-i-i-i-i-i-me:
"a.debakey" <a.debakey@...> wrote:
>
> John, off the grid for 30? Good Lord, what "grid"? And, gooder,
> how "off"? Alan
>
History (this is combination of several that I have written)
In 1968, after finishing a degree in Anthropology, while fishing on a causeway
in Biscayne
Bay looking at the Miami skyline, I had the realization that civilization as we
know it could
not endure. Although a seemingly highly adaptable and flexible animal, I
believed then
and now that civilization took away too much of our humanity by both removing us
from
other life forms and stuffing us into pockets with too many of our own kind. At
that point
I started a quest to go "back to the land" which took me to Mexico, Oregon,
Hawaii,
Ozarks and finally Minnesota. During that time, Limits to Growth came out
reinforcing my
assumptions from a resource point of view. Further reading reinforced it from
an
ecological and environmental point of view. Then I studied energy, ran the
first low
income weatherization program in Minnesota, developed, installed and had dealers
for a
solar hot air panel and was active in the Minnesota renewable energy scene.
I lived off the grid for 30 years in Minnesota. (I was born and raised in
Florida and didn't
see snow until I was 18 in the USAF) The first 10 years were without electricity
because I
personally think nuclear waste is no legacy to leave the future. The next 20 my
electricity
came from sun and wind. The solar panels were the main source for me. Although
I love
the esthetics of wind generators turning in the wind, I prefer solar because of
longevity
and no maintenance. I cooked with wood and heated with wood and yes, I know
wood is
a problem but I used as little as possible, well dried with the best stoves.
For the first ten years I pumped all my water. Visitors were told they could
use as much as
they wished, they only had to pump their own. It is amazing how fast they
conserved when
it was both their responsibility and their labor.
I got my psychology degree and license using kerosene lamps. I cooked with wood
(a 1935
copper clad wood cook stove) and heated with wood (a stove I built). Then I got
both wind
power (a story in itself) and solar panels. I lived on less than a kilowatt hour
a day for the
next 20 plus years. During the 70s, I manufactured a solar hot air panel and
installed
many 1000 square feet. Was involved in state and federal renewable activities.
After 1983,
I began using my degree and was in private practice as licensed psychologist for
the next
years until 2003.
In 2003 was diagnosed with lung cancer and given a few weeks to live. Survived
radiation
and chemo and am doing fabulously. I sold my land in central Minnesota and moved
with
my partner to a lake home she owned. There I set up a 3kWh grid-tie system. We
recently
are buying a piece of land near by that we are beginning to develop a two acre
orchard. We
put our first trees in this fall. This will be a slow but sure process. We did
all the fencing.
We reconditioned the little home on the place and will use it as a retreat
later. Just had a
well put in that will drip irrigate the orchard. I am using a pump jack so that
I can set it up
with a 12volt 1/2 hp motor run by solar panels like I had at my other place. We
will also
capture water coming off the small barn on the place that has a salt box roof.
The water
will go into a reservoir. I have lined up an old fire truck pumper as the
possible reservoir.
I plan to build an ice house for block ice cut off the lake next summer. Will
use modern
materials for insulation.
I understand that many feel despair when faced with the various peaks and
challenges of
the future. It really is a challenge. Here is a synopsis of the talk I gave at
the RelayForLife:
The theme is hope. To me Hope is Doing.
I am a back to the land hippie from the 60s. During treatment for the cancer, I
was
splitting wood because I needed to cook and heat. Those of you who have been
through
treatment and those of you who have been with us as we have gone through
treatment
know how tough and debilitating it can be. My neighbors did do most of it but I
still
needed to do some.
For me, hope is not words all though the kind ones and the prayers are welcome.
Hope is
not statistics.
Hope is doing. It is doing the things you have to, for me like splitting wood.
And it is
doing the things that arise in you and really are doing you. First, for me it
was talking to
kids all around Minnesota about not smoking. Now it is putting in an organic
orchard for
future food for people. This isn't heroics it is living.
And I will add again. It is a great adventure.
John Weber
NM
"Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
....come down to who's willing to sit around all day saying ohmmmmm, etc., ...
Ever tried bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbohm, Donlay? Might (un)do the trick-truck-stuck ;-)
Alan
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
.hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true? -- Regina
If we consider implicate/explicate order as proposed as a view for exploration, the idea of true/false might not arise. Rather, what questions does the I/O Order answer, what problems of thought does it solve?
Similarly, what questions and problems, etc., are addressed by Sufism? Maybe the anxiety regarding homo-sappo's personal existence are addressed by Sufism.
Maybe the same is true of re Buddhism. But, what's the trade-off? Does it come down to who's willing to sit around all day saying ohmmmmm, etc., i.e., surrendering self for the nothingness pleasure of having no anxiety about death and dying, etc? - dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in
the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of
Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
---------------------------------
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
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From landmana at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 11:40:59 2007
From: landmana at yahoo.com (Alfred Landman)
Date: Mon Dec 17 11:47:00 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W2028A87A3370F0B33650FBDC610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Hi Rob Mooney. T.e.a.
AL.
rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
.hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } there is asking and saying at any rate
---------------------------------
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:14:42 -0700
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I would say there is definitely mind. Although it might not be what you and I would call mind.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in
the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of
Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
---------------------------------
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From jeff at siit.tu.ac.th Mon Dec 17 14:30:24 2007
From: jeff at siit.tu.ac.th (Jeff Webb)
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:37:18 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
Hi,
I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in
the implicate order.
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). So
the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
implicate order.
I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
Jeff
>
> In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for
> ?there?.)
>
> In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
>
> Regina
>
>
> ??
>
From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 14:52:41 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:58:40 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
Message-ID: <003101c840b4$1a0909b0$b5c16018@DL01>
"is there space, time causality in the implicate order",
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). -- Jeff
Hi Jeff.
Does the question imply space or time by using the idea expressed by "in"?
If so, does this imply the language we use is not adequate to address the meaning of the question? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Webb
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Hi,
I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in
the implicate order.
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). So
the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
implicate order.
I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
Jeff
>
> In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for
> ?there?.)
>
> In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
>
> Regina
>
>
> ??
>
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 15:07:42 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Mon Dec 17 15:13:45 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <466461.42128.qm@web45814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Tea?? Mio dio Al, what are you smoking, drinking, brewing? Like: Does pouring (hot) water over (tea)leaves order - explicated ;-o
Al, I am into "real"-life stuff (examples), all that (particle)theoretical talk gives me goose-bumps ;........}}
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?))
Alan
Alfred Landman <landmana@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Rob Mooney. T.e.a.
AL.
rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
.hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } there is asking and saying at any rate
---------------------------------
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:14:42 -0700
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I would say there is definitely mind. Although it might not be what you and I would call mind.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in
the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of
Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 15:14:30 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Mon Dec 17 15:20:34 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] SELF, SOCIETY AND PROPRIOCEPTION
In-Reply-To: <631198.34361.qm@web45801.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <771229.22794.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
One re-action 's this:
> http://www.themeatrix1.com/meatrix.swf
And, 'funnily', commically, strangely enough,
he picks up from the clip I just sent with this:
[...] This has been one of the happiest
circumstances of life on this planet. It seem that
mankind has been fortunate, largely because the earth
has been so bounteous. There has been plenty to eat,
delightful climates for the most parts, lots of material
for clothing and shelter, lots of offspring. The result
has been that man seems to have been permitted by
natural bounty to live largely in a world of playful
fantasy. Whole societies have been able to persist with
central beliefs that bore little relation to reality.
About the only time a culture has had to pay has been in
the encounters with conquerors superior in numbers,
weapons and immunity to certain diseases."
Somehow this feels a wee like travelling in time starring at
Bohm's symbols, set in papery stone almost .25
century ago-went-gone.
Carrol
"Alan E. DeBakey" <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
funny doesn't http://www.themeatrix1.com/meatrix.swf ?
A, Horse(Meat)Lover
---------------------------------
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From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 15:15:59 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 15:21:54 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <466461.42128.qm@web45814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004501c840b7$594becc0$b5c16018@DL01>
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?)) -- Alan
Does the question of food, etc., imply that man, that we live by bread alone?
Maybe what is important about QT is the idea of meaning. What is the meaning?
What is meaning? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan E. DeBakey
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Tea?? Mio dio Al, what are you smoking, drinking, brewing? Like: Does pouring (hot) water over (tea)leaves order - explicated ;-o
Al, I am into "real"-life stuff (examples), all that (particle)theoretical talk gives me goose-bumps ;........}}
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?))
Alan
Alfred Landman <landmana@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Rob Mooney. T.e.a.
AL.
rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
there is asking and saying at any rate
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:14:42 -0700
I would say there is definitely mind. Although it might not be what you and I would call mind.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, "in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind." (Note: I am guessing "ere" is a typo for "there".)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. -- Is this statement true?
Regina
--
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 16:26:46 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 16:32:44 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
Message-ID: <007701c840c1$3c9f5580$b5c16018@DL01>
is there space, time causality in the implicate order. --
One view might be that when space, time causality become manifest -- then that is the explicate and by definition, the explicate is not the implicate.
Someone said that Aristotle uses the idea of potential to address the problem of being/non being -- that non being is in being as potential.
Then would Aristotelian thought say the properties of the explicate such as space, time causality are "in" the implicate as potential. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Webb
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Hi,
I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in
the implicate order.
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). So
the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
implicate order.
I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
Jeff
>
> In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for
> ?there?.)
>
> In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
>
> Regina
>
>
> ??
>
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 16:42:41 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Mon Dec 17 16:48:45 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation
In-Reply-To: <20071216.090526.3184.45.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20071216.090526.3184.45.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712170742q3fda9871xb24868c516676876@mail.gmail.com>
I: What's your point, Pat?
On Dec 16, 2007 9:05 AM, <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> I can feel those final grains of self aggrandizement
> flying out of my pores from the morning readings..
>
> But alas - never say final.
> "Final" is only the beginning
> of the next layer of subtlety
> of these glorifications of me.
>
> -- funny
>
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:53:53 -0500 "Irene Darcy" <irenedarcy@gmail.com>
> writes:
>
> DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many enfolded, implied
> - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to answer him, it would
> take the kind of in depth work a music historian and musicologist could turn
> into a doctoral dissertation. However, for starters, see
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_improvisation
>
> It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
>
> The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions of
> European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the
> likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral
> tradition.
>
> In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow
> Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website
> with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and
> his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in
> all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be
> Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide.
> Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the
> Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of
> his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance
> of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I
> think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just
> recently here in the Village.
> Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
>
> In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many years.
> Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many 'methods', both
> jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm putting together
> my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the best of jazz and
> classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I live that long!
>
> --
> Irene
>
>
>
>
>
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From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 17:27:50 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 17:34:01 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
<007701c840c1$3c9f5580$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <009501c840c9$c9da9a10$b5c16018@DL01>
When the identity movement is suspended, experience of being does not cease.
Then, it becomes clear that ontic intelligence does not have to be personalized as Bohm indicates, I believe in the interview with Weber.
Watching the identity movement (thought), awareness of the identity thought may and does at times suspend the identity processes.
Maybe we should say when awareness clearly presents the reasoning that identity processes are not needed, then that awareness suspends the unneeded processes. Later, when awareness of need occurs, then the identity processes recur.
It appears that the I identity is not needed for identity suspension. That's the way it seems to me, to this identity when the identity processes are present.
Resonance anyone ..., all you outer identities "out there"? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
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From donlay at knology.net Mon Dec 17 17:42:02 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Mon Dec 17 17:47:57 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th><007701c840c1$3c9f5580$b5c16018@DL01>
<009501c840c9$c9da9a10$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <00ae01c840cb$c07ac830$b5c16018@DL01>
I can feel those final grains of self aggrandizement flying out of my pores from the morning readings. -- Funny
Does the experience of "self aggrandizement flying out of my pores " precede the experience of the identity processes being suspended, being held in suspension?
If so, then maybe the meaning of "self aggrandizement flying out of my pores " might be that identity has limited meaning.
Then what is the meaning of someone talking about "self aggrandizement flying out of my pores "? Could it be to demonstrate meaning?
Could it be that one more participates in this that is when not acting and pretending the social identity?
Resonance anyone? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:27 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
When the identity movement is suspended, experience of being does not cease.
Then, it becomes clear that ontic intellige