From a.debakey at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 00:03:55 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:10:01 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W3578ACF0EBA1E8BF2AD95ADC620@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <935290.903.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I'm not sure you have to understand a hill or a spider or a waterfall to http://tinyurl.com/yqrk4v it
Alan [keeping with&in the BDresscOD
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 00:07:40 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:13:47 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712171456h11cfe7bam88206e6694b32c3a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <949950.18124.qm@web45808.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: I: You have me in stitches of laughter. If I had an image the right size, I'd post that instead of the words. Or how about http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Allisvanity.jpg/250px-Allisvanity.jpg ?
|-]
A
On Dec 17, 2007 5:53 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: "Separate' as in dotted line is fine and necessary. As in 'smashed', its destructive.
Tri that on you break fast eeg to mor row monin
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--
Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 00:07:49 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:13:57 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <935290.903.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <BAY123-W3578ACF0EBA1E8BF2AD95ADC620@phx.gbl>
<935290.903.qm@web45816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712171507u4c1412d3g25bcdae2e03f54c@mail.gmail.com>
I: Alan, hilarious! You're almost as good as Bach!
On Dec 17, 2007 6:03 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> *rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>* wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm not sure you have to understand a hill or a spider or a waterfall to
> http://tinyurl.com/yqrk4v it
>
>
> Alan [keeping with&in the BDresscOD
>
> ------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
--
Irene
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 00:10:44 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:16:51 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <949950.18124.qm@web45808.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <c47283890712171456h11cfe7bam88206e6694b32c3a@mail.gmail.com>
<949950.18124.qm@web45808.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712171510o3588a706wbadcdcae932082cc@mail.gmail.com>
I: Imagine a child going into a tantrum demanding something she wants.
That's me, wanting to know how to make images small enough to post!
Please. For Christmas, maybe?
On Dec 17, 2007 6:07 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I: You have me in stitches of laughter. If I had an image the right
> size, I'd post that instead of the words. Or how about
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Allisvanity.jpg/250px-Allisvanity.jpg
> ?
>
> |-]
>
> A
>
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 5:53 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> > I: "Separate' as in dotted line is fine and necessary. As in
> > 'smashed', its destructive.
> >
> > Tri that on you break fast eeg to mor row monin
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping>
> >
> >
> > <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue>
>
>
--
Irene
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Tue Dec 18 00:01:26 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:23:45 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01>
<C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
<c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W122272852F4EBFA6007BDBDC620@phx.gbl>
what does imagination use to balance? (some ballast or other I soap pose)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:53:34 -0500From: irenedarcy@gmail.comTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderI: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the problem? What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is implicate is explicate?)
On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- RobMaybe. I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think of the identity of things including us.I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, with the language or knowing system of imagination.It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the notness or non being must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply by acting and pretending it is not there. Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being. dl http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message ----- From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? the old old thought occurs -- no us?
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breathThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl -- Irene
_________________________________________________________________
Fancy some celeb spotting?
https://www.celebmashup.com
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Tue Dec 18 00:04:48 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:23:47 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712171424t498a359eseb5f169a0cff1d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01>
<C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
<c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com>
<032601c840f9$22bf5ce0$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171408m42472b79m4768faa35cd06c40@mail.gmail.com>
<033501c840fa$2f16e390$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171424t498a359eseb5f169a0cff1d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W8A2168CB62CCF34F213F2DC620@phx.gbl>
movement in accord with the time is a gift of self
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:24:21 -0500From: irenedarcy@gmail.comTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderI: I can't yet explain how it fits, but I know it does. Really, improvisation - which is instantaneous musical composition, be it jazz, classical, salsa, whatever -is a sinking into the moment to let the imagination work. Feeling, idea, motive, design, everything combines in the moment, to express the meaning as it unfolds. I've started out with an idea, thinking to take it in a particular direction, but as I hear what I'm doing, something else happens and my fingers follow it. Intellect gets out of the way. There's no way I could reproduce what I did.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:14 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
I: Without imagination there is no creativity.
Maybe, maybe not. What about spontaneous music, dance?
Language is an art, use to create MACRO scenarios, etc., from micro word/images. -- dl
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Without imagination there is no creativity.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:06 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net > wrote:
Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
Language use is the use of word/images (db). Maybe what is out of balance is pretending otherwise and trying to use language without awareness that it is using imagination. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the problem? What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is implicate is explicate?)
On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- RobMaybe. I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think of the identity of things including us.I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, with the language or knowing system of imagination.It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the notness or non being must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply by acting and pretending it is not there. Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being. dl http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message ----- From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? the old old thought occurs -- no us?
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breathThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl -- Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue-- Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue-- Irene
_________________________________________________________________
Free games, great prizes - get gaming at Gamesbox.
http://www.searchgamesbox.com
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Tue Dec 18 00:07:20 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:24:58 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712171446u3fc23e4bocf5d2e3dfeb91757@mail.gmail.com>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01>
<C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
<c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com>
<032601c840f9$22bf5ce0$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171408m42472b79m4768faa35cd06c40@mail.gmail.com>
<033501c840fa$2f16e390$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171424t498a359eseb5f169a0cff1d9@mail.gmail.com>
<036701c840fc$fae05040$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171446u3fc23e4bocf5d2e3dfeb91757@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W12226F9DB0C718807B2926DC620@phx.gbl>
mind's eye-ear and heart
marvellous!
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:46:19 -0500From: irenedarcy@gmail.comTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderI: Wow, what a question, Don. Very thought provoking, and I need time to think about it.When you say 'notes', I think of black dots on white paper. And they make shapes. Melodic lines make shapes. Notes are only inaccurate symbols for sound, and music goes nowhere without its design, its architecture. It also hooks into the whole scenario going on in the composer's mind's eye-ear and heart. There are layers and layers of things enfolded here. We also develop what's called 'pre-hearing', meaning we hear the sounds in our mind's ear, and that sends our hands to the instrument to produce them. I guess that could qualify as auditory imagination. Then there's kinesthetic imagination. There's much more, but I need time.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:34 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
I tend to think of imagination as image use and as related to visual experience. However, I believe someone point out that db/thought does not limit the meaning of imagination to visual experience.
If that's the case, the maybe music experienced "on the inside" would function as imagination without images.
Would notes rhythm,etc, then function as do visual images comprising written language?
Do you think of notes, etc., as imagination or that notes, etc., occur in imagination? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: I can't yet explain how it fits, but I know it does. Really, improvisation - which is instantaneous musical composition, be it jazz, classical, salsa, whatever -is a sinking into the moment to let the imagination work. Feeling, idea, motive, design, everything combines in the moment, to express the meaning as it unfolds. I've started out with an idea, thinking to take it in a particular direction, but as I hear what I'm doing, something else happens and my fingers follow it. Intellect gets out of the way. There's no way I could reproduce what I did.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:14 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
I: Without imagination there is no creativity.
Maybe, maybe not. What about spontaneous music, dance?
Language is an art, use to create MACRO scenarios, etc., from micro word/images. -- dl
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Without imagination there is no creativity.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:06 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net > wrote:
Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
Language use is the use of word/images (db). Maybe what is out of balance is pretending otherwise and trying to use language without awareness that it is using imagination. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the problem? What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is implicate is explicate?)
On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- RobMaybe. I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think of the identity of things including us.I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, with the language or knowing system of imagination.It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the notness or non being must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply by acting and pretending it is not there. Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being. dl http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message ----- From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? the old old thought occurs -- no us?
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breathThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl -- Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue-- Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue-- Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue-- Irene
_________________________________________________________________
Who's friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 00:26:26 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:32:34 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W122272852F4EBFA6007BDBDC620@phx.gbl>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01>
<C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
<c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com>
<BAY123-W122272852F4EBFA6007BDBDC620@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c47283890712171526r2faedf46l96c1a16d7670c4e9@mail.gmail.com>
I: Penetrating question, Rob. I'll put it in my subconscious while I play.
On Dec 17, 2007 6:01 PM, rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> what does imagination use to balance? (some ballast or other I soap pose)
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:53:34 -0500
> From: irenedarcy@gmail.com
>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And
> imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
> wrote:
>
> To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the problem?
> What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is
> implicate is explicate?)
>
>
> On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
>
> the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- Rob
>
> Maybe. I've been using the idea of *imagination*, thought to think of the
> *identity of things* including us.
>
> I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of *all this
> that is* as *unknown* and thought equating with the *imaged known*, with
> the language or *knowing system* of *imagination*.
>
> It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the *notness or non
> being* must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply by acting
> and pretending it is not there.
>
> Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea
> that *relative being is part of the whole of Being. * dl
>
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ <http://www.knology.net/%7Edonlay/>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there
> be *no* space?
>
> the old old thought occurs -- no us?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500
>
> if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um...
> breath
>
> The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there
> be *no* space? Maybe we could say that it is only a *useful concept* and
> use while being aware that it is *limited*.
>
> Would that be in the direction of *unlimited experience*? -- dl
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Irene
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Everything in one place. All new Windows Live!<http://www.windowslive.co.uk/get-live>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
--
Irene
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Tue Dec 18 00:16:25 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:45:27 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Message-ID: <20071217.184239.3184.81.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Maybe the feeling that "life is not meaningful" comes from the thought
"life is not
meaningful." Where ever would that thought have "come from?" It would
definitely
have to be inclusive of a thought of "meaning" as separate from "life,"
wouldn't it?
And even the "within" thing separates them.
It looks like we just have to figure out [not] how to not take ANY of the
thoughts
seriously. No wait. the "how" will certainly get in the way of this (just
as the "figure out"
will).
-- funny
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:48:07 -0700 "Susan Clemons"
<Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> writes:
I mean we all use the word mean, meaning, etc. A philosopher said that
the question of meaning is meaningful.
Are we all using some thing that we know not, neither stand under, over
or beside? dl
What if we don't do any of those things but simply live within it?
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I mean we all use the word mean, meaning, etc. A philosopher said that
the question of meaning is meaningful.
Are we all using some thingK that we know not, neither stand under, over
or beside?
Can it be acceptable that meaning is only somethingK manmade, and that
otherwise, everything including us is meaningless? Is there
meaninglessness?
Is the question of meaning itself meaningless?
I've been trying to give attention to the idea advanced by some thinkers
that the Greek logos has been interpreted as meaning. What might that
mean? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
What is meaning?
how do you mean?
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:15:59 -0500
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?)) -- Alan
Does the question of food, etc., imply that man, that we live by bread
alone?
Maybe what is important about QT is the idea of meaning. What is the
meaning?
What is meaning? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan E. DeBakey
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Tea?? Mio dio Al, what are you smoking, drinking, brewing? Like: Does
pouring (hot) water over (tea)leaves order - explicated ;-o
Al, I am into "real"-life stuff (examples), all that
(particle)theoretical talk gives me goose-bumps ;........}}
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?))
Alan
Alfred Landman <landmana@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Rob Mooney. T.e.a.
AL.
rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
there is asking and saying at any rate
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:14:42 -0700
I would say there is definitely mind. Although it might not be what you
and I would call mind.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere
is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing
?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or
mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore
colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only
dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in
human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a
property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious
observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our
perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses
cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable
even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our
senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an
accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality
in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate
'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the
'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an
illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our
bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos,
matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground
of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though
Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the
implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval
systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations
challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in
the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever
changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old
subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to
understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us
to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality.
To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different
paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the
natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly.
They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which
can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through
focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to
activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity
in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all
endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of Self-knowledge,
is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to
abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal
stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses
on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but
these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To
know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence,
requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that
reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Tue Dec 18 00:39:51 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:45:30 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
Message-ID: <20071217.184239.3184.83.ae.dropper@juno.com>
fullness pours out
and it all empties into white
the mounds of it - frozen overnight
worms throw up casts
in the fine snow, crystals,
up close you can see
the colors - LOOK
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:03:41 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
worms throw up casts
in the fine snow
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:40:52 -0800
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Pat, look at your letter below. Do you know why it has the message from
Symantec on it? This is something that keeps turning up on people's
e-mails, and it may be some kind of worm or virus.
don
On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:09 AM, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology.
Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested
levels of files were found.
For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit
http://ses.symantec.com/
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Date: December 17, 2007 11:09:47 AM PST
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
fullness pours out
and it all empties into white
the mounds of it - frozen overnight
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:23:27 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
fullness pours out
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:00:04 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
And it all empties into white.
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:43:40 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
Naming plays its oldest game.
Somehow out of reach it dances
nine dances to itself. Nine dances
all in couples made of three.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines and dies again
so leave our light alone to be.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered onion light
from lullabies of thunder.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shame and calamine find us
shovelling blossom snow
Before the no, before the go,
before the be became, we will
become before the sun
has ever been born below.
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:12:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Naming plays games with itself.
Somewhere out of reach it dances
nine dances by itself
in "couples" made of three.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines and dies again
so leave our light alone.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered onion light
from lampshades worn as hats.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shade and calamine find us
shovelling a foot of snow
before the plows
before the dogs....
before the rain and sleet
will come
before the sun
was even born
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:14:42 -0500 "Irene Darcy" <irenedarcy@gmail.com>
writes:
I: Word music Improvisation. Have a great day, everybody.
On Dec 16, 2007 4:13 AM, rob mooney < rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Naming plays games with itself.
Somewhere out of reach it dances
nine dances by itself.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered light.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shade and calamine find us.
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:39:03 -0500
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
what? (Rob)
the naming plays with itself
somewhere out of reach
of the dance itself.
do our leaves
get eaten by light
before they fall?
we certainly have
to be careful of
skin cancer
and light!
previously,
it was sunburn.
we aren't leaves.
one size
doesn't fit all.
funni, rob, irene
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 01:48:56 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
what?
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:54:42 -0500
From: irenedarcy@gmail.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] noname 2
I: We certainly have to be careful of skin cancer and light!
Previously, it was sunburn. We aren't leaves. One size doesn't fit
all.
On Dec 14, 2007 2:51 PM, rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
do our leaves get eaten by light before they fall?
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:26:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] noname 2
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
DIALOGUE DANCE
A dialogue circle of trees, dancing trees
we do not sit in chairs but we stand in the woods
with the light filtering through our autumn leaves
and we are dancing - our roots are our feet
and our millions of toes, dancing.
A wind comes and some of our leaves fall
from some of our fingers,
our million fingers, one for every dancing toe,
one explication for every implication
our roots hidden, unknown
but known constantly as that
which ever refuses naming
while the naming plays with itself
somewhere out of reach
of the dance itself.
-- funny
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:08:46 -0800 donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com>
writes:
Don't you think though, that maybe a bit of both is even more useful?
Just so long as we don't turn the tree - or others - into objects that we
"understand" completely. Actually, as I think of it, there is more than
one way to understand understanding.
don
On Dec 13, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi Irene Darcy. If a brain wants to learn about trees, for instance,
thought could simply spend time with them in their natural habitat etc
(which is what many traditionally "primitive" people do). Breaking trees
into their cellular components and so forth enables genetic manipulation
of them, for instance, but this can't be said to "objectively" help one
get to know a tree better than simply spending time with them. In fact,
it does the precise opposite. This brain can never genuinely know a
living organism that you've instrumentalized and objectified like that.
AL
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Space and Time (Don F)
From: ami_kes@juno.com (John A MIKES)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 16:59:24 EDT
to: Bohm, Subject Space and Time
Dear Don, nice wisdom in your Sep.25 'Space & Time note. Yet:(your
quote):
>...<
Foucault was right: there is no such epoque as the present one. His, or
ours, does not matter. Past reflection does not match live experience.
WE are the experiencers, not memory. So: hold your enthusiasm.
Also: I was glad: A rare thing on this list a reference to David Bohm!
I find this unending exchange "about the list-filling" redundant. In my
(not so humble) opinion a list is like love: practice it, don't explain.
If it does not live up to your expectations, there are other lists to
choose from. Nobody can change BB or anybody else. Accept it or leave it.
To explain one's views ABOUT participating: nice, but keep it short. And
have mercy on the receiving parties: half a dozen posts per day per per-
son in exorbitant length, or sometimes 5 consecutive attachments is rude.
Who does not have the time to write short, should keep it. Length is
negligent.
And to the following exchange I have a plagiarism from Doug Bilodeau, an
acclaimed physicist from the JCS-list:(see below) - the 'exchange':
*
" >JPL:
>"Shout, shout, let it all out
>these are the things I can do without,
>come on, I'm talking to you, come on.." whereupon
" >>Wm:
>>Pssst... not so loud, I think the others are meditating.
William
*
Not so sure! I refer to my remark on a "no response" to a post:
"si tacent clamant": Dough B: corrected me: "or: si tacent dormiunt".
From: "Chris Hooley" < chooley@idnsi.net>
Subject: Re: purpose of list
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 18:24:15 PDT
To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk
Hello All,
I've heard nothing from the group for several days. So, I'm sending this
message to check for echo.
Regards
Chris
From: "Chris Hooley" <chooley@idnsi.net>
Subject: inside out
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 18:19:50 PDT
To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk
Hello Everyone,
I would share another thought that I found interesting.
The gastrointestinal track is actually "outside" the body in the sense
that
it's a long, open-ended tube. In the same way, "no-thing", which is (or
can be seen to be) at the center of every manifested form, is continuous,
contiguous to itself. It is "outside" the space/time form though when
seen
from within the form it appears to be isolated like droplets.
My intuition is that we can focus (reside *as* attention) either on the
form or on the un-form that borders it.
The experience of attending to the un-form in-between can't be fully
represented, even to ourselves, I think, but experimenting with this
viewing angle has been intriguing.
Received: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:21:50 +0100 (BST)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:19:21 +0100 (BST)
From: maximus@dircon.co.uk (Barron Burrow)
Subject: Re:intentional dying
Extraordinary and moving message you sent us, Don ... Full of the *right
kind* of fight, too, I felt. For the struggle against cancer
"intentional
dying" *feels* like the right way to go. And what you say about
'death-rebirth' through finding the right life-rhythms seems absolutely
right:
> ultradian rhythms. These involved 90 minute to 2 hour
>cycles during which the body would, as it were, shift gears. The neural
>chemistry changes, hemispheric dominance shifts and the body, during
about
>twenty minutes of each cycle, does its best to get into a quiet,
>self-repair mode. As he put it, the unconscious parts of the organism
would
>try to go to work without the interference of the conscious mind.
Normally,
>our culture has trained us to override these cycles in order to get on
with
>our work. =
I think there is great truth in this last remark. I find myself that
it's
sometimes the hardest thing to just ignore the world, and simply try to
get
back into touch with one's own internal rhythms; but there's no doubt
that
with practice you can get better at it. However, sooner or later you
forget
-- and have to learn the inexplicable and difficult (but ultimately very
rewarding) process all over again. What's difficult about it, I guess,
is
*acceptance* of dying -- "intentional dying" ... Bimodal-psa. helps me,
because it puts me in touch with the deepest source of my own 'unlived
lines' (but there are clearly many ways to get back 'in touch').
I wldn't overdo it, on the email. I understand very well what Matti
Vaittenen means when he says, today, " " ... but in a virtual world you
do
not get your hands dirty, you do not sweat; you just work overtime." But
I've decided it's okay to just fade in and out. Because the truth surely
is
we are as much talking to ourselves as to each other: binary bits are NOT
people ... On the other hand, I think of the Net in Kleinian analysis
terms
-- as a kind of substitute 'container'. Just as the mother can soothe
away
the infant's "nameless dread" so too can this kind of dialogue. There's
no
obligation to post even weekly -- just fade in and out when the mood
takes.
So, sorry to see you go, Matti -- but in the end I think the world may go
through a phase transition, led by the Net, that gradually puts
everything
the right way round again, and dethrones the present over-emphasis on a
top-down culture that *separates* mind and body. So I may fade in and
out a
lot, but I'm staying with it. Gustava (?) in S. America brought up the
enormous problem of world over-population recently; I felt bad that no
one
responded. It's a diabolical problem -- but one which in Europe seems to
have been largely overcome (e.g. Spain and Russia's population is falling
--
and most other nations in Europe are not being over-populated
hand-over-fist). Catholic ideology on birth-control seems hopelessly
unrealistic, and the worst effects seem to be in S. America.
Don has summed up an incredible eleven years of his life-struggle in one
short email message, and I feel grateful that he has shared that -- with
*me*. It reminds me of something that is so easily forgotten -- our
common
humanity.
I can see the irony of having yr message bounced back with a 'fatal
error'
note :-) On my kitchen table, Don, is a copy of "The Unfolding Meaning"
(Routledge, 1987) (it's odd your saying "perseverance furthers" because
someone in Australia recently said the same thing)( -- and the other day
I
re-read yr Introduction, rather neat, I thought. And now here I am
speaking
to one of its authors!
>A couple of feelings guide me, acting as warnings that I'm drifting: on
the
>one side is the "hope of winning", and on the other is "self pity."
>
>The affirmations that I'm using aren't self strenghtening, at least
>directly; "What could be a better experience than being the unfolding
>universe? Having given up, I can relax! Etc."
Unfolding meaning, yes, but also knowing how to get in touch with
'unlived
lines' -- parts of oneself one had last been in touch with at the moment
of
birth, for instance. Because without that there is no proper dying; and
so
no full living either. No?
I think Julia has hit on something important when she says:
>
>is dialogue about facilitating the intentional dying of the ego self?
>
>julia
--
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Tue Dec 18 00:03:43 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:45:32 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Message-ID: <20071217.184239.3184.80.ae.dropper@juno.com>
no me?
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:42:14 -0800 donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com>
writes:
Should be me, no?
X
On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:37 AM, rob mooney wrote:
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there
be no space?
the old old thought occurs -- no us?
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um...
breath
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there
be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use
while being aware that it is limited.
Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um...
breath
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:52:41 -0500
"is there space, time causality in the implicate order",
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). --
Jeff
Hi Jeff.
Does the question imply space or time by using the idea expressed by
"in"?
If so, does this imply the language we use is not adequate to address the
meaning of the question? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Webb
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Hi,
I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in
the implicate order.
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). So
the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
implicate order.
I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
Jeff
>
> In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for
> ?there?.)
>
> In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
>
> Regina
>
>
> ??
>
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Tue Dec 18 00:22:45 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:45:43 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
Message-ID: <20071217.184239.3184.82.ae.dropper@juno.com>
I have a friend who longs to be Casper the Ghost.
I can really get into the invisibility thing myself
but this "body" thing, I mean, how fabulously
funny is that?
-- funny
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:50:40 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
Baso said, "sometimes I make 'him' raise his eyebrows and blink,
sometimes I do not make 'him' raise his eyebrows and blink. Sometimes
raising the eyebrows and blinking is all right. Sometimes raising the
eyebrows and blinking is not all right. How about you?" Hearing these
words Yakusan was greatly enlightened and he bowed.
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:06:53 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
I also have no idea what Pat meant but I know that a poet is allowed to
say stuff I don't understand (rob)
That is because you know that they say stuff that they don't understand.
And that they have to in order to say anything at all.
-- funny
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:20:22 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
Could it be that one more participates in this that is when not acting
and pretending the social identity?
I think so
and also maybe even when acting and pretending
I also have no idea what Pat meant but I know that a poet is allowed to
say stuff I don't understand
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:42:02 -0500
I can feel those final grains of self aggrandizement flying out of my
pores from the morning readings. -- Funny
Does the experience of "self aggrandizement flying out of my pores "
precede the experience of the identity processes being suspended, being
held in suspension?
If so, then maybe the meaning of "self aggrandizement flying out of my
pores " might be that identity has limited meaning.
Then what is the meaning of someone talking about "self aggrandizement
flying out of my pores "? Could it be to demonstrate meaning?
Could it be that one more participates in this that is when not acting
and pretending the social identity?
Resonance anyone? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:27 AM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
When the identity movement is suspended, experience of being does not
cease.
Then, it becomes clear that ontic intelligence does not have to be
personalized as Bohm indicates, I believe in the interview with Weber.
Watching the identity movement (thought), awareness of the identity
thought may and does at times suspend the identity processes.
Maybe we should say when awareness clearly presents the reasoning that
identity processes are not needed, then that awareness suspends the
unneeded processes. Later, when awareness of need occurs, then the
identity processes recur.
It appears that the I identity is not needed for identity suspension.
That's the way it seems to me, to this identity when the identity
processes are present.
Resonance anyone ..., all you outer identities "out there"? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Tue Dec 18 00:41:14 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:45:47 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Message-ID: <20071217.184239.3184.84.ae.dropper@juno.com>
I know they don't but I don't know how I know.
-- funny
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:04:49 -0700 "Susan Clemons"
<Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> writes:
How do you know?
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
yes. and breathing and sensing and meaning and joy take time and space
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:29:29 -0500
Time and space is used when language is used to talk about space and
time. Words evolved to accommodate the view that space and time are
useful. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan E. DeBakey
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
USING time, space.... Please, Donlay, give us an example how Donlay
"uses" ... time?.... space?.... ;-)
Alan
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um...
breath
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there
be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use
while being aware that it is limited.
Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um...
breath
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:52:41 -0500
"is there space, time causality in the implicate order",
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). --
Jeff
Hi Jeff.
Does the question imply space or time by using the idea expressed by
"in"?
If so, does this imply the language we use is not adequate to address the
meaning of the question? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Webb
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Hi,
I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in
the implicate order.
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). So
the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
implicate order.
I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
Jeff
>
> In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for
> ?there?.)
>
> In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,
> matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
>
> Regina
>
>
> ??
>
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Tue Dec 18 00:02:48 2007
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Tue Dec 18 00:45:48 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
Message-ID: <20071217.184239.3184.79.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Never heard of them till now.
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:40:52 -0800 donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com>
writes:
Pat, look at your letter below. Do you know why it has the message from
Symantec on it? This is something that keeps turning up on people's
e-mails, and it may be some kind of worm or virus.
don
On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:09 AM, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology.
Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested
levels of files were found.
For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit
http://ses.symantec.com/
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Date: December 17, 2007 11:09:47 AM PST
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
fullness pours out
and it all empties into white
the mounds of it - frozen overnight
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:23:27 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
fullness pours out
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:00:04 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
And it all empties into white.
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:43:40 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
Naming plays its oldest game.
Somehow out of reach it dances
nine dances to itself. Nine dances
all in couples made of three.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines and dies again
so leave our light alone to be.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered onion light
from lullabies of thunder.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shame and calamine find us
shovelling blossom snow
Before the no, before the go,
before the be became, we will
become before the sun
has ever been born below.
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:12:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Naming plays games with itself.
Somewhere out of reach it dances
nine dances by itself
in "couples" made of three.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines and dies again
so leave our light alone.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered onion light
from lampshades worn as hats.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shade and calamine find us
shovelling a foot of snow
before the plows
before the dogs....
before the rain and sleet
will come
before the sun
was even born
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:14:42 -0500 "Irene Darcy" <irenedarcy@gmail.com>
writes:
I: Word music Improvisation. Have a great day, everybody.
On Dec 16, 2007 4:13 AM, rob mooney < rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Naming plays games with itself.
Somewhere out of reach it dances
nine dances by itself.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered light.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shade and calamine find us.
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:39:03 -0500
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
what? (Rob)
the naming plays with itself
somewhere out of reach
of the dance itself.
do our leaves
get eaten by light
before they fall?
we certainly have
to be careful of
skin cancer
and light!
previously,
it was sunburn.
we aren't leaves.
one size
doesn't fit all.
funni, rob, irene
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 01:48:56 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
writes:
what?
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:54:42 -0500
From: irenedarcy@gmail.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] noname 2
I: We certainly have to be careful of skin cancer and light!
Previously, it was sunburn. We aren't leaves. One size doesn't fit
all.
On Dec 14, 2007 2:51 PM, rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
do our leaves get eaten by light before they fall?
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:26:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] noname 2
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
DIALOGUE DANCE
A dialogue circle of trees, dancing trees
we do not sit in chairs but we stand in the woods
with the light filtering through our autumn leaves
and we are dancing - our roots are our feet
and our millions of toes, dancing.
A wind comes and some of our leaves fall
from some of our fingers,
our million fingers, one for every dancing toe,
one explication for every implication
our roots hidden, unknown
but known constantly as that
which ever refuses naming
while the naming plays with itself
somewhere out of reach
of the dance itself.
-- funny
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:08:46 -0800 donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com>
writes:
Don't you think though, that maybe a bit of both is even more useful?
Just so long as we don't turn the tree - or others - into objects that we
"understand" completely. Actually, as I think of it, there is more than
one way to understand understanding.
don
On Dec 13, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi Irene Darcy. If a brain wants to learn about trees, for instance,
thought could simply spend time with them in their natural habitat etc
(which is what many traditionally "primitive" people do). Breaking trees
into their cellular components and so forth enables genetic manipulation
of them, for instance, but this can't be said to "objectively" help one
get to know a tree better than simply spending time with them. In fact,
it does the precise opposite. This brain can never genuinely know a
living organism that you've instrumentalized and objectified like that.
AL
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Space and Time (Don F)
From: ami_kes@juno.com (John A MIKES)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 16:59:24 EDT
to: Bohm, Subject Space and Time
Dear Don, nice wisdom in your Sep.25 'Space & Time note. Yet:(your
quote):
>...<
Foucault was right: there is no such epoque as the present one. His, or
ours, does not matter. Past reflection does not match live experience.
WE are the experiencers, not memory. So: hold your enthusiasm.
Also: I was glad: A rare thing on this list a reference to David Bohm!
I find this unending exchange "about the list-filling" redundant. In my
(not so humble) opinion a list is like love: practice it, don't explain.
If it does not live up to your expectations, there are other lists to
choose from. Nobody can change BB or anybody else. Accept it or leave it.
To explain one's views ABOUT participating: nice, but keep it short. And
have mercy on the receiving parties: half a dozen posts per day per per-
son in exorbitant length, or sometimes 5 consecutive attachments is rude.
Who does not have the time to write short, should keep it. Length is
negligent.
And to the following exchange I have a plagiarism from Doug Bilodeau, an
acclaimed physicist from the JCS-list:(see below) - the 'exchange':
*
" >JPL:
>"Shout, shout, let it all out
>these are the things I can do without,
>come on, I'm talking to you, come on.." whereupon
" >>Wm:
>>Pssst... not so loud, I think the others are meditating.
William
*
Not so sure! I refer to my remark on a "no response" to a post:
"si tacent clamant": Dough B: corrected me: "or: si tacent dormiunt".
From: "Chris Hooley" < chooley@idnsi.net>
Subject: Re: purpose of list
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 18:24:15 PDT
To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk
Hello All,
I've heard nothing from the group for several days. So, I'm sending this
message to check for echo.
Regards
Chris
From: "Chris Hooley" <chooley@idnsi.net>
Subject: inside out
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 97 18:19:50 PDT
To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk
Hello Everyone,
I would share another thought that I found interesting.
The gastrointestinal track is actually "outside" the body in the sense
that
it's a long, open-ended tube. In the same way, "no-thing", which is (or
can be seen to be) at the center of every manifested form, is continuous,
contiguous to itself. It is "outside" the space/time form though when
seen
from within the form it appears to be isolated like droplets.
My intuition is that we can focus (reside *as* attention) either on the
form or on the un-form that borders it.
The experience of attending to the un-form in-between can't be fully
represented, even to ourselves, I think, but experimenting with this
viewing angle has been intriguing.
Received: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:21:50 +0100 (BST)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:19:21 +0100 (BST)
From: maximus@dircon.co.uk (Barron Burrow)
Subject: Re:intentional dying
Extraordinary and moving message you sent us, Don ... Full of the *right
kind* of fight, too, I felt. For the struggle against cancer
"intentional
dying" *feels* like the right way to go. And what you say about
'death-rebirth' through finding the right life-rhythms seems absolutely
right:
> ultradian rhythms. These involved 90 minute to 2 hour
>cycles during which the body would, as it were, shift gears. The neural
>chemistry changes, hemispheric dominance shifts and the body, during
about
>twenty minutes of each cycle, does its best to get into a quiet,
>self-repair mode. As he put it, the unconscious parts of the organism
would
>try to go to work without the interference of the conscious mind.
Normally,
>our culture has trained us to override these cycles in order to get on
with
>our work. =
I think there is great truth in this last remark. I find myself that
it's
sometimes the hardest thing to just ignore the world, and simply try to
get
back into touch with one's own internal rhythms; but there's no doubt
that
with practice you can get better at it. However, sooner or later you
forget
-- and have to learn the inexplicable and difficult (but ultimately very
rewarding) process all over again. What's difficult about it, I guess,
is
*acceptance* of dying -- "intentional dying" ... Bimodal-psa. helps me,
because it puts me in touch with the deepest source of my own 'unlived
lines' (but there are clearly many ways to get back 'in touch').
I wldn't overdo it, on the email. I understand very well what Matti
Vaittenen means when he says, today, " " ... but in a virtual world you
do
not get your hands dirty, you do not sweat; you just work overtime." But
I've decided it's okay to just fade in and out. Because the truth surely
is
we are as much talking to ourselves as to each other: binary bits are NOT
people ... On the other hand, I think of the Net in Kleinian analysis
terms
-- as a kind of substitute 'container'. Just as the mother can soothe
away
the infant's "nameless dread" so too can this kind of dialogue. There's
no
obligation to post even weekly -- just fade in and out when the mood
takes.
So, sorry to see you go, Matti -- but in the end I think the world may go
through a phase transition, led by the Net, that gradually puts
everything
the right way round again, and dethrones the present over-emphasis on a
top-down culture that *separates* mind and body. So I may fade in and
out a
lot, but I'm staying with it. Gustava (?) in S. America brought up the
enormous problem of world over-population recently; I felt bad that no
one
responded. It's a diabolical problem -- but one which in Europe seems to
have been largely overcome (e.g. Spain and Russia's population is falling
--
and most other nations in Europe are not being over-populated
hand-over-fist). Catholic ideology on birth-control seems hopelessly
unrealistic, and the worst effects seem to be in S. America.
Don has summed up an incredible eleven years of his life-struggle in one
short email message, and I feel grateful that he has shared that -- with
*me*. It reminds me of something that is so easily forgotten -- our
common
humanity.
I can see the irony of having yr message bounced back with a 'fatal
error'
note :-) On my kitchen table, Don, is a copy of "The Unfolding Meaning"
(Routledge, 1987) (it's odd your saying "perseverance furthers" because
someone in Australia recently said the same thing)( -- and the other day
I
re-read yr Introduction, rather neat, I thought. And now here I am
speaking
to one of its authors!
>A couple of feelings guide me, acting as warnings that I'm drifting: on
the
>one side is the "hope of winning", and on the other is "self pity."
>
>The affirmations that I'm using aren't self strenghtening, at least
>directly; "What could be a better experience than being the unfolding
>universe? Having given up, I can relax! Etc."
Unfolding meaning, yes, but also knowing how to get in touch with
'unlived
lines' -- parts of oneself one had last been in touch with at the moment
of
birth, for instance. Because without that there is no proper dying; and
so
no full living either. No?
I think Julia has hit on something important when she says:
>
>is dialogue about facilitating the intentional dying of the ego self?
>
>julia
--
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--
Irene
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Tue Dec 18 01:18:08 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Tue Dec 18 01:24:56 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <466461.42128.qm@web45814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><004501c840b7$594becc0$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W360C871E5B94A44C7CE328DC620@phx.gbl><00f901c840e0$9e4b5c10$b5c16018@DL01><00a401c840e5$c0be8920$f277480c@HOME><018001c840e7$9f7dbd60$b5c16018@DL01><014901c840e9$ebf72760$f277480c@HOME>
<BAY123-W32BBB589EBA7C32852E6B1DC620@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <019901c8410b$8ce34750$f277480c@HOME>
Does this question mean you have never read any of my posts?
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
anything to report, honey?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:17:54 -0700
Why not investigate that? -- dl
That seems like such a silly question to me dl. I've been investigating that for the last 30 years.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
What if we don't do any of those things but simply live within it? -- Susan
I like that idea! That's the idea of the Greek logos ... which meant reason, ratio, meaning ..., etc. Seems reasonable to me that Bohm like it also. Why not investigate that? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I mean we all use the word mean, meaning, etc. A philosopher said that the question of meaning is meaningful.
Are we all using some thing that we know not, neither stand under, over or beside? dl
What if we don't do any of those things but simply live within it?
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I mean we all use the word mean, meaning, etc. A philosopher said that the question of meaning is meaningful.
Are we all using some thingK that we know not, neither stand under, over or beside?
Can it be acceptable that meaning is only somethingK manmade, and that otherwise, everything including us is meaningless? Is there meaninglessness?
Is the question of meaning itself meaningless?
I've been trying to give attention to the idea advanced by some thinkers that the Greek logos has been interpreted as meaning. What might that mean? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
What is meaning?
how do you mean?
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:15:59 -0500
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?)) -- Alan
Does the question of food, etc., imply that man, that we live by bread alone?
Maybe what is important about QT is the idea of meaning. What is the meaning?
What is meaning? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan E. DeBakey
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Tea?? Mio dio Al, what are you smoking, drinking, brewing? Like: Does pouring (hot) water over (tea)leaves order - explicated ;-o
Al, I am into "real"-life stuff (examples), all that (particle)theoretical talk gives me goose-bumps ;........}}
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?))
Alan
Alfred Landman <landmana@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Rob Mooney. T.e.a.
AL.
rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
there is asking and saying at any rate
----------------------------------------------------------
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:14:42 -0700
I would say there is definitely mind. Although it might not be what you and I would call mind.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 01:25:32 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Tue Dec 18 01:31:39 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <20071217.184239.3184.84.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <538774.40094.qm@web45805.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
funnydoesntweb@juno.com wrote: .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } I know they don't but I don't know how I http://tinyurl.com/2rvjhd
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 01:26:56 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Tue Dec 18 01:33:04 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <019901c8410b$8ce34750$f277480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <853595.77218.qm@web45815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Joy@worldnet.att.netwrote: .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } Does this question mean you have never http://tinyurl.com/2pkwvv
any of my posts?
Susan
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Tue Dec 18 01:28:10 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Tue Dec 18 01:34:17 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><032601c840f9$22bf5ce0$b5c16018@DL01><c47283890712171408m42472b79m4768faa35cd06c40@mail.gmail.com><033501c840fa$2f16e390$b5c16018@DL01><c47283890712171424t498a359eseb5f169a0cff1d9@mail.gmail.com>
<036701c840fc$fae05040$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <023c01c8410c$deca6c00$f277480c@HOME>
dl, you can play imaginatively with music or with feelings for that matter. Imagination is definitely not limited to the visual.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I tend to think of imagination as image use and as related to visual experience. However, I believe someone point out that db/thought does not limit the meaning of imagination to visual experience.
If that's the case, the maybe music experienced "on the inside" would function as imagination without images.
Would notes rhythm,etc, then function as do visual images comprising written language?
Do you think of notes, etc., as imagination or that notes, etc., occur in imagination? -- dl
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 01:24:50 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Tue Dec 18 01:37:39 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712171510o3588a706wbadcdcae932082cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <882175.31582.qm@web45807.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: I: Imagine a child going into a tantrum demanding something she wants. That's me, wanting to know http://tinyurl.com/23o547
Please. For Christmas, maybe
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 01:41:09 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Tue Dec 18 01:47:18 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <882175.31582.qm@web45807.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <c47283890712171510o3588a706wbadcdcae932082cc@mail.gmail.com>
<882175.31582.qm@web45807.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712171641y2ec41796od299cfcf973a43b1@mail.gmail.com>
I: Snow angel. How lovely.
On Dec 17, 2007 7:24 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I: Imagine a child going into a tantrum demanding something she wants.
> That's me, wanting to know *http://tinyurl.com/23o547*
> Please. For Christmas, maybe
>
> ------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
--
Irene
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 01:52:15 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Tue Dec 18 01:58:22 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712171641y2ec41796od299cfcf973a43b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58782.82899.qm@web45801.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote: I: Don Laying http://tinyurl.com/35olm2 How lovely.
(Top in strigKing disdance).
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 01:56:02 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Tue Dec 18 02:02:10 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <58782.82899.qm@web45801.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <c47283890712171641y2ec41796od299cfcf973a43b1@mail.gmail.com>
<58782.82899.qm@web45801.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712171656x5f4d8dew38a2f8078b4fed92@mail.gmail.com>
I: Imag-ineg, sounds of applause.
On Dec 17, 2007 7:52 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I: Don Laying *http://tinyurl.com/35olm2* How lovely.
>
> (Top in strigKing disdance).
>
> ------------------------------
>
> <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue>
>
>
--
Irene
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From donlay at knology.net Tue Dec 18 02:22:32 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Tue Dec 18 02:28:44 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><035301c840fb$4d1463d0$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171432w7e5a633ej7673469675579782@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
ISmeaningfulTM to say the answer to these questions is yes, and to say that Bohm, talking about infinite subtlety and when he says it is as far "in there" inside the atom as it is "out there" through the universe substantiates the view I'm trying to learn how to explicate.
Where or what is the personal identity while being sensitive enough to "hear" the direction that amounts to improv?
Once again, my programming friend says there is no identity movement while writing code. If there was, he would be unable to write code because C++, he says, is not the language appropriate for the personal identity. That is, personal identity simply has no meaning in the Visual Basic or C++ language.
Are you aware of Irene's personal identity movement while doing improv? -- dl
\
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: We're getting into the idea of Nada Brahma, now. And to say more, I'd have to go get my book.
It would have been more accurate to say one creates a time-space line when one moves, I think.
Why do all the good things happen at once? I'm working on Bach Goldberg. My Eurhythmics teacher is giving a three day workshop soon on what an improviser can learn from them, and I'm preparing for it. I would love to have heard Bach sit down and jam with Paquito d'Rivera; throw in Sidney Bechet for good measure on clarinet, and Eugene Ysaye on violin.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.
What about the idea that every time you move, you are using time and space?
Is there time and space absent homo-sappo, prior to homo-sappo? Perhaps more precisely, is there some actuality indicated by time and space that is prior to homo-sappo? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the problem? What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is implicate is explicate?)
On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- Rob
Maybe. I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think of the identity of things including us.
I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, with the language or knowing system of imagination.
It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the notness or non being must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply by acting and pretending it is not there.
Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being. dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space?
the old old thought occurs -- no us?
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breath
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.
Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
--
Irene
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Irene
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From donlay at knology.net Tue Dec 18 02:34:04 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Tue Dec 18 02:40:04 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><032601c840f9$22bf5ce0$b5c16018@DL01><c47283890712171408m42472b79m4768faa35cd06c40@mail.gmail.com><033501c840fa$2f16e390$b5c16018@DL01><c47283890712171424t498a359eseb5f169a0cff1d9@mail.gmail.com><036701c840fc$fae05040$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171446u3fc23e4bocf5d2e3dfeb91757@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03b401c84116$12fd8670$b5c16018@DL01>
There's much more, but I need time.
Yes. Perhaps what is needed is more time to give very careful attention to suspending the everyday pretense and to give careful attention to what actually is (if you agree that we must do much pretending every day).
Whatever or however a musician may participate in the essential creativity of Being, still if she puts it into writing, into words, she must use the common everyday SOS language which itself means acting and pretending the separated structure of the language.
And demonstrably, I believe, the SOS of language is inadequate (think Bohm 1951). Again, the SOS language, meaning a separated subject observing a separated object cannot adequately describe what the quantum theories say actually is. Period.
Does it?
That's how certain I am! I appreciate your careful attention to this. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Wow, what a question, Don. Very thought provoking, and I need time to think about it.
When you say 'notes', I think of black dots on white paper. And they make shapes. Melodic lines make shapes. Notes are only inaccurate symbols for sound, and music goes nowhere without its design, its architecture. It also hooks into the whole scenario going on in the composer's mind's eye-ear and heart. There are layers and layers of things enfolded here.
We also develop what's called 'pre-hearing', meaning we hear the sounds in our mind's ear, and that sends our hands to the instrument to produce them.
I guess that could qualify as auditory imagination. Then there's kinesthetic imagination.
There's much more, but I need time.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:34 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
I tend to think of imagination as image use and as related to visual experience. However, I believe someone point out that db/thought does not limit the meaning of imagination to visual experience.
If that's the case, the maybe music experienced "on the inside" would function as imagination without images.
Would notes rhythm,etc, then function as do visual images comprising written language?
Do you think of notes, etc., as imagination or that notes, etc., occur in imagination? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: I can't yet explain how it fits, but I know it does. Really, improvisation - which is instantaneous musical composition, be it jazz, classical, salsa, whatever -
is a sinking into the moment to let the imagination work. Feeling, idea, motive, design, everything combines in the moment, to express the meaning as it unfolds. I've started out with an idea, thinking to take it in a particular direction, but as I hear what I'm doing, something else happens and my fingers follow it. Intellect gets out of the way. There's no way I could reproduce what I did.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:14 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
I: Without imagination there is no creativity.
Maybe, maybe not. What about spontaneous music, dance?
Language is an art, use to create MACRO scenarios, etc., from micro word/images. -- dl
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Without imagination there is no creativity.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:06 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net > wrote:
Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
Language use is the use of word/images (db). Maybe what is out of balance is pretending otherwise and trying to use language without awareness that it is using imagination. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the problem? What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is implicate is explicate?)
On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- Rob
Maybe. I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think of the identity of things including us.
I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, with the language or knowing system of imagination.
It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the notness or non being must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply by acting and pretending it is not there.
Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being. dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space?
the old old thought occurs -- no us?
----------------------------------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breath
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.
Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
--
Irene
------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
--
Irene
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Irene
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Irene
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 02:51:42 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Tue Dec 18 02:57:51 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01>
<C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
<c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com>
<035301c840fb$4d1463d0$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171432w7e5a633ej7673469675579782@mail.gmail.com>
<03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <c47283890712171751j46871d8fr2b21c8d161bc54a8@mail.gmail.com>
Where or what is the *personal identity* while being sensitive enough to
"hear" the direction that amounts to improv?
I: If it's any help, imagine me as a giant ear with fingers. Once I went
into an altered state in performance, and my husband, an actor, said "That
was a coke head performance." Little did I know then, what he meant. When
the applause started, I was startled. Had no idea where I was. The first
thing that came to consciousness was my butt on the piano bench. Then the
rest, little by little.
On Dec 17, 2007 8:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> IS*meaningful*TM to say the answer to these questions is yes, and to say
> that Bohm, talking about infinite subtlety and when he says it is as far "in
> there" inside the atom as it is "out there" through the universe
> substantiates the view I'm trying to learn how to explicate.
>
> Where or what is the *personal identity* while being sensitive enough to
> "hear" the direction that amounts to improv?
>
> Once again, my programming friend says there is *no identity movement*while writing code. If there was, he would be unable to write code because
> C++, he says, is not the language appropriate for the *personal identity*.
> That is, personal identity simply has no meaning in the Visual Basic or C++
> language.
>
> Are you aware of Irene's *personal identity* *movement* while doing
> improv? -- dl
>
>
> \ <http://www.knology.net/%7Edonlay/>
>
> *From:* Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> I: We're getting into the idea of Nada Brahma, now. And to say more, I'd
> have to go get my book.
>
> It would have been more accurate to say one creates a time-space line when
> one moves, I think.
>
> Why do all the good things happen at once? I'm working on Bach Goldberg.
> My Eurhythmics teacher is giving a three day workshop soon on what an
> improviser can learn from them, and I'm preparing for it. I would love to
> have heard Bach sit down and jam with Paquito d'Rivera; throw in Sidney
> Bechet for good measure on clarinet, and Eugene Ysaye on violin.
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
>
> > I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.
> >
> > What about the idea that *every time you move, you are using time and
> > space*?
> >
> > Is there time and space absent homo-sappo, prior to homo-sappo? Perhaps
> > more precisely, is there some *actuality* indicated by time and
> > space that is prior to homo-sappo? -- dl
> >
> > http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ <http://www.knology.net/%7Edonlay/>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>
> > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> >
> > I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And
> > imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
> >
> > On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the problem?
> > > What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is
> > > implicate is explicate?)
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- Rob
> > >
> > > Maybe. I've been using the idea of *imagination*, thought to think of
> > > the *identity of things* including us.
> > >
> > > I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of *all
> > > this that is* as *unknown* and thought equating with the *imaged known
> > > *, with the language or *knowing system* of *imagination*.
> > >
> > > It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the *notness or
> > > non being* must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply by
> > > acting and pretending it is not there.
> > >
> > > Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the
> > > idea that *relative being is part of the whole of Being. * dl
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ <http://www.knology.net/%7Edonlay/>
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
> > > *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PM
> > > *Subject:* RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> > >
> > > The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could
> > > there be *no* space?
> > >
> > > the old old thought occurs -- no us?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > From: donlay@knology.net
> > > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> > > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500
> > >
> > > if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um...
> > > breath
> > >
> > > The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could
> > > there be *no* space? Maybe we could say that it is only a *useful
> > > concept* and use while being aware that it is *limited*.
> > >
> > > Would that be in the direction of *unlimited experience*? -- dl
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Irene
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> > <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Tue Dec 18 02:59:15 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Tue Dec 18 03:05:26 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W7B97CD182F3C04B886551DC620@phx.gbl>
References: <376217.5644.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
<013a01c840e3$24c34530$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W7B97CD182F3C04B886551DC620@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <382459E1-E035-43C4-94F6-8E81D22C36B8@dc.rr.com>
I was waiting for a "merry christmas" at at the end of this.
Dancer and Vixen
On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:01 PM, rob mooney wrote:
> yes. and breathing and sensing and meaning and joy take time and space
>
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:29:29 -0500
>
> Time and space is used when language is used to talk about space
> and time. Words evolved to accommodate the view that space and
> time are useful. -- dl
>
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alan E. DeBakey
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
>
>
> USING time, space.... Please, Donlay, give us an example how Donlay
> "uses" ... time?.... space?.... ;-)
>
> Alan
>
> Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our...
> um... breath
>
> The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could
> there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful
> concept and use while being aware that it is limited.
>
> Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
>
>
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rob mooney
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our...
> um... breath
>
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:52:41 -0500
>
> "is there space, time causality in the implicate order",
>
> If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate
> order' I
> think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
> explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are
> implicated). -- Jeff
>
> Hi Jeff.
>
> Does the question imply space or time by using the idea expressed
> by "in"?
>
> If so, does this imply the language we use is not adequate to
> address the meaning of the question? -- dl
>
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Webb
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> Hi,
>
> I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time
> causality in
> the implicate order.
>
> If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate
> order' I
> think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
> explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are
> implicated). So
> the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
> causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
> this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
> implicate order.
>
> I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
>
> Jeff
> >
> > In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> > 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> > matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a
> typo for
> > ?there?.)
> >
> > In the implicate order there is no space, time,
> causality,
> > matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
> >
> > Regina
> >
> >
> > ??
> >
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star!
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search
> Charades!
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Tue Dec 18 03:00:22 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Tue Dec 18 03:06:32 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W17D702155BD553E462636EDC620@phx.gbl>
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
<003101c840b4$1a0909b0$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W316D168A86355AA8647C79DC620@phx.gbl>
<00e501c840df$bb92bda0$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W3205646DF39FCB075F9CE5DC620@phx.gbl>
<1F7DA20A-E59A-4220-978F-3AA284BBD26C@dc.rr.com>
<BAY123-W17D702155BD553E462636EDC620@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8E62992E-CB4A-4FD0-B267-A050FBAE608A@dc.rr.com>
OR My Space.
don
On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:04 PM, rob mooney wrote:
> why would I single you out Don?
>
> From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:42:14 -0800
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>
> Should be me, no?
> X
> On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:37 AM, rob mooney wrote:
>
> The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could
> there be no space?
>
> the old old thought occurs -- no us?
>
>
>
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500
>
> if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our...
> um... breath
>
> The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could
> there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful
> concept and use while being aware that it is limited.
>
> Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
>
>
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rob mooney
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our...
> um... breath
>
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:52:41 -0500
>
> "is there space, time causality in the implicate order",
>
> If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate
> order' I
> think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
> explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are
> implicated). -- Jeff
>
> Hi Jeff.
>
> Does the question imply space or time by using the idea expressed
> by "in"?
>
> If so, does this imply the language we use is not adequate to
> address the meaning of the question? -- dl
>
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Webb
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> Hi,
>
> I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time
> causality in
> the implicate order.
>
> If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate
> order' I
> think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
> explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are
> implicated). So
> the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
> causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
> this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
> implicate order.
>
> I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
>
> Jeff
> >
> > In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> > 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> > matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a
> typo for
> > ?there?.)
> >
> > In the implicate order there is no space, time,
> causality,
> > matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
> >
> > Regina
> >
> >
> > ??
> >
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star!
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Everything in one place? All new Windows Live!
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search
> Charades!
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donlay at knology.net Tue Dec 18 03:08:43 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Tue Dec 18 03:14:43 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th><007701c840c1$3c9f5580$b5c16018@DL01><009501c840c9$c9da9a10$b5c16018@DL01><00ae01c840cb$c07ac830$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W879FB36B103BA98E4068CDC620@phx.gbl><010801c840e1$de342e00$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W350E74A4BF40EED8D77188DC620@phx.gbl><0B6839C7-B24F-4F22-A7A3-2354F8D15B6B@dc.rr.com><BAY123-W378C54AF712FEB739B63DEDC620@phx.gbl>
<028201c840f2$bed78dc0$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W3578ACF0EBA1E8BF2AD95ADC620@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <040a01c8411a$ea307ae0$b5c16018@DL01>
And what is explicated by the poetry? explication. -- Rob
Is it sufficient to begin by saying that the everyday view of reality is not suggested in those poetic and somewhat flowing expressions of Pat and Rob, of funny and funny? And more, that those expressions, though perhaps romantic, need not be labeled romantic ... in the classical sense of romantic literature?
fullness pours out
and it all empties into white
the mounds of it - frozen overnight ... ae. dropper, 12 17 07.
What can this mean? Perhaps one way to begin addressing this is to say what it does not mean.
Certainly, it does not mean and does not describe or try to point to the everyday classical view of reality. Then, what remains? The non-classical view remains, i.e., the Romantic view and perhaps also the quantum view. I contend, the view explicated by db/thought remains.
What's that? I'm unsure exactly. I don't know, and I don't know anyone who does know.
However, it ISTM certain that the classical view that homo-sappo is the center of the universe as suggested by the Copenhagen (that homo-sappo consciousness is required for being to manifest itself) is untenable and can be sustained only by acting and pretending that the imagined SOCIAL identity is actual instead of imaginary. -- Something like that. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
And what is explicated by the poetry? explication.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
Date: Mon, 17 Dec