From donlay at gte.net Sat Nov 18 00:35:45 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Nov 19 01:41:32 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Personal Connectivity and Impersonal Koinonia
Message-ID: <00ac01c70aa1$1da2a800$9603153f@DL01>
So there are personal connections between some people AND the more 'impersonal' Koinonia.
I like both/ands rather than either/ors! -- Gill
Gill, Rodger, what abouit the idea that what we are is unknown (Bohm), and the personal is a view, a very useful system?
I think I like what W says about the idea of personal identity, that as part of evolution it is a great leap forward (paraphrasing). The downside ofcourse is the problems known as alienation, estrangement, fragmentation, etc. People think they are some thingK defined by Websters.
I like using the system, but not being enslaved by it.
Resonance -- Don L
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Nov 18 02:28:41 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Nov 19 03:34:39 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
References: <00d201c709d3$85753930$3374153f@DL01>
Message-ID: <00e601c70ab0$e25e6f30$0401a8c0@your0548c161e1>
What would happen? I suspect we would find ourselves engaged in a real dialogue without fragmentation or incoherence. And I also suspect that the endorphins would confirm this. -- don
Something we do locally is try Greek dialogue without using the Latin persona words, without talking about the imaginary persona. To begin, we try talking for five minutes with no references to self. Few are able to do it; many, most will not try. Those who persevere and soon find endorphins flowing with the "ZERO PERSONA POINT". After a while people are able to deny the persona, to declare the persona to be untrue and unreal in the sense that it is severely limiting -- it makes you think you are a fixed thingK.
Something very obvious, people become less neurotic -- neurotic defined by Tillich as being less than you are able to be.
After a while people are able to be less phony in the sense of trying to identify as a witty, wise and clever, highly educated ... less. It seems we try less to impress others with our persona. For lack of a better word, we call it zero point acting and pretending. We all still have a persona so to speak. It's just that we come to know it as process.
It is astounding that so many people refuse to look at and deal with the definition and meaning of the English word self -- that derives from the Latin persona and Greek proserpon, words for stage props, for actor's masks.
I'm saying all this is fairly clever, witty and wise in that it is sort of what is suggested by the great thinker/physicist Bohm as well as many other thinkers -- of course not my identity.
Resonance ... any of you other clever, witty and wise actors and pretenders? -- Don L
To: Don Lay
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:04 PM
Subject: Fw: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
http://home1.gte.net/donlay
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
On Nov 16, 2006, at 6:32 AM, Don Lay wrote:
Is it possible to interpret the clever, witty, wise occurrence as other than personal? Is it possible to interpret cleverness, wisdom, wittiness as insight ... as the attributes of the ground of Being?
If thoughts are not words, is it possible to see also that thoughts are not ours? Is it not extremely limiting to say a thought is mine -- and ignore that everyone may have the same thought?
What would happen if I did not personify and interpret cleverness, wittiness or wisdom as mine? What would happen if you experienced wisdom without personifying? What would happen if, as per K, you watched the personification movement, or were, as Bohm suggests, aware of the personification movement as it forms ... such that experience occurs (sic) of wisdom instead of personal wisdom?
Do endorphins flow without excessive personification movement? -- dbl
What would happen? I suspect we would find ourselves engaged in a real dialogue without fragmentation or incoherence. And I also suspect that the endorphins would confirm this.
don
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From Matti.Vaittinen at uta.fi Sat Nov 18 15:26:52 2006
From: Matti.Vaittinen at uta.fi (Matti Vaittinen)
Date: Sun Nov 19 16:32:53 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Defining and Introduction to Dialogue
In-Reply-To: <002401c70a5e$9ced9d10$1d77480c@HOME>
References: <20060910.101832.1608.4.ae.dropper@juno.com>
<00a301c70a54$a86b8da0$934a153f@DL01>
<002401c70a5e$9ced9d10$1d77480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <20061118162652.xrqadk96fl4oo80s@imp1.uta.fi>
It took me two months to recover from last summer's Dialogue session
(in here), it's true. I realised my brain finally being "washed"
(from the remnants of Dialogue), or, I don't know "washed away",
maybe, as I attended a series of jazz concerts here in Tampere two
weeks ago, during one weekend. It began gradually, slowly. Thursday
evening I went (in fact, accidentally) to this club where there was
supposed to be a free drumming session by a guy named Adam Rudolph.
It turned out to be a free drumming "class" for everyone; rudimentary
drumming ;-) I joined in, and there I was suddenly clapping after the
instructions of Master Rudolph, a very relaxed fellow. But what
really swept me off my feet, after an hour or so, was a film by a
Swedish guy, who introduced the film for us. Now, I just can't
remember the name of the artist, wait a minute: Alber Ayler, yes. He
was one of the first people to play f r e e jazz on Earth. I mean
it was an explosion, amazing (and "brain damaging") to see and listen
to this man playing his saxophone louder, fiercer and "crazier" than
any punk rocker or such band that came to existence after him. Yes,
... (- but, well, I don't know, the end was a little sad as it turned
out that Alber Ayler jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge in late 1970, so
...) Anyway, this was the begining, and I became interested, wanting
to experience more of live jazz. The next step on my way of getting
rid of the residual of last summer's Dialogue via email was when I
attended the Saturday evening series of concerts. I skip the first
two, and only say a few words about the last one: Andrew Hill. Yes.
Andrew Hill, he was the man, who "did it" for me. It was already
after mid-night when the band started, and the music did not make any
sense to me. Actually, I expected it to be traditional, ordinary
jazz, but no, it sounded like nonsense. It was chaos. Every artist
was playing his "own" thing, not listening to one another. For a
moment I considered walking away, as I was already tired. But then,
as I listened to their playing more and more, I stopped, because I
begand to "hear" something in it, the music began somehow to make
"sense" to me, at a deeper level. Maybe it was "order," - order out
of chaos. Emerging order. And I stayed. It was Blue Note jazz, in
its purest form. (This I learned much later.)
So, to the final countdown. I was ready to "take off" on Sunday
evening when the final jam session began. I had high expectations
about this, because the 'leader' would be Raoul Bj?rkenheim, the
leading (jazz) guitarist in this country (although living mostly in
N.Y. these days). He plays great blues. Here are (I think most of
the) players of the jam session:
http://www.tampere.fi/musicfestivals/jazz.htm
(See also http://www.tampere.fi/musicfestivals/jazz/artists/raoul.htm )
And what ensued, I can't really describe, put into words. Nearly
three hours of free improvisation, just --- crazy ... Crazy and very
strange. It was order beyond order, beyond everything, maybe ten
artists on the stage. Massive sound, overwheliming, enfolding,
unfolding noise. Order out of sound, polyphony, space. Mind-washing
experience; purifying debris out of my system of the "TAS". I am
referring to Dialogue now, because, strange enough, most of the time I
was somehow "thinking" at some level of the Dialogue from last summer,
and how I was being purified from it, leaving it behind, dying to it,
getting rid of it. This just happended, I could not help it. That's
why I am telling you this.
Matti
-
Lainaus Susan Clemons <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net>:
> When it comes to giving a description of and an introduction to
> dialogue I happened across a link to one of the first introductions
> I found when I was researcyhing dialogue. I still think it's one of
> the best I've ever seen. I thought it might help you with your own
> thoughts on this Don. Here's a link:
>
> http://www.therapycorner.com/community_dialogue.htm
>
> Susan
From earthsky at tiscali.co.uk Sat Nov 18 17:46:18 2006
From: earthsky at tiscali.co.uk (earthsky@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Sun Nov 19 18:52:14 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
In-Reply-To: <00e601c70ab0$e25e6f30$0401a8c0@your0548c161e1>
Message-ID: <4541409800036990@mail-5-uk.mail.tiscali.sys>
Hi Don,
Self as process certainly resonates with me.
I like the use of Zero point here. I guess the inference is that if 'self'
or 'persona' is used to describe a process, an unfolding of a person interconnected
with the whole then this is so very different than a 'self' or 'persona'
which is more rigid, fixed or fragmented.
Mmm I've found another of my assumptions ... 'the self can only be a process'.
Gill
>-- Original Message --
>Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 20:28:41 -0500
>From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>
>
>What would happen? I suspect we would find ourselves engaged in a real dialogue
>without fragmentation or incoherence. And I also suspect that the endorphins
>would confirm this. -- don
>
>
>Something we do locally is try Greek dialogue without using the Latin persona
>words, without talking about the imaginary persona. To begin, we try talking
>for five minutes with no references to self. Few are able to do it; many,
>most will not try. Those who persevere and soon find endorphins flowing
>with the "ZERO PERSONA POINT". After a while people are able to deny the
>persona, to declare the persona to be untrue and unreal in the sense that
>it is severely limiting -- it makes you think you are a fixed thingK.
>
>Something very obvious, people become less neurotic -- neurotic defined
by
>Tillich as being less than you are able to be.
>
>After a while people are able to be less phony in the sense of trying to
>identify as a witty, wise and clever, highly educated ... less. It seems
>we try less to impress others with our persona. For lack of a better word,
>we call it zero point acting and pretending. We all still have a persona
>so to speak. It's just that we come to know it as process.
>
>It is astounding that so many people refuse to look at and deal with the
>definition and meaning of the English word self -- that derives from the
>Latin persona and Greek proserpon, words for stage props, for actor's masks.
>
>I'm saying all this is fairly clever, witty and wise in that it is sort
of
>what is suggested by the great thinker/physicist Bohm as well as many other
>thinkers -- of course not my identity.
>
>Resonance ... any of you other clever, witty and wise actors and pretenders?
> -- Don L
>
> To: Don Lay
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:04 PM
> Subject: Fw: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
>
>
>
> http://home1.gte.net/donlay
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: donald factor
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] thoughts that are not words
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2006, at 6:32 AM, Don Lay wrote:
>
>
> Is it possible to interpret the clever, witty, wise occurrence as other
>than personal? Is it possible to interpret cleverness, wisdom, wittiness
>as insight ... as the attributes of the ground of Being?
>
>
>
>
> If thoughts are not words, is it possible to see also that thoughts
are
>not ours? Is it not extremely limiting to say a thought is mine -- and
ignore
>that everyone may have the same thought?
>
>
>
>
> What would happen if I did not personify and interpret cleverness, wittiness
>or wisdom as mine? What would happen if you experienced wisdom without
personifying?
> What would happen if, as per K, you watched the personification movement,
>or were, as Bohm suggests, aware of the personification movement as it forms
>... such that experience occurs (sic) of wisdom instead of personal wisdom?
>
>
>
>
>
> Do endorphins flow without excessive personification movement? --
>dbl
>
>
>
> What would happen? I suspect we would find ourselves engaged in a real
>dialogue without fragmentation or incoherence. And I also suspect that the
>endorphins would confirm this.
> don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
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