From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:01:36 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:07:56 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <019101c841b4$738f50b0$fb76480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <968252.39232.qm@web45809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Aren't 'we' glad that some one is rising to the challength, no wait, i'software s'kips: some one is rising the "real" t'issue here ;-)
How long does it take a Joy http://tinyurl.com/2h5r5y .... can some one (else) please giv (offr) a joy&full&hand?
HumanimAlan
Susan Clemons <Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Maybe so, but I don't join a group so I can spend the majority of my time deleting posts.
---------------------------------
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:06:20 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:12:40 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] send 17th
In-Reply-To: <022a01c841b6$5d553e20$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <978661.56737.qm@web45806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote: They're on the way as of 3:40pm. --- s'harp
TalgKing about deleting s'and @ the b'each: glad we dont have to fumble with those thinkgs anylongershorterwidernarrower: http://tinyurl.com/2lk95k :::::........}}}}}
Humanimalan
---------------------------------
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:10:59 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:17:19 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <476846F4.000011.03588@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <607955.5946.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Ohhhhhh! Ahhhhhh!
Whaaaaaaaaaaaat a "move", W ill i m
http://www.pathguy.com/chess/PeasantR.htm
Humanimalan
william <w@david-bohm.net> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url (#default#vml);} v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url (#default#vml) } We could consider setting up a second bohm dialogue list; one with a different style. Would you, Susan, be willing to moderate such a new list?
-------Original Message-------
From: Susan Clemons
Date: 18.12.2007 21:27:51
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
Maybe so, but I don't join a group so I can spend the majority of my time deleting posts. If there's anything worth reading in there it doesn't seem to be worth the time to search it out. I mostly just sit and hit delete. I really don't care about "looseness", I would like to have a discussion about beliefs and the positive aspects of self. I keep coming back to the group hoping there will be some kind of change but in all the years it's been here it seems to stay pretty much the same. Like I said, if this is all the people of the list want dialogue to be then I would rather not participate. I may simply change my profile to "no mail" so that I can check back in once in a while, but this same old nonsense of Peter and dl dominating the group seems hardly worth the trouble to read.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
As the man said, judge not lest ye be judged:-)
I'd stick with it. At least I would be unhappy if you left. So often you say stuff that I would have said, so it saves me the trouble. And anyway some gems have emerged out of the flood of stuff, say between Alan(peter) and Rob and Pat' that actually seem to have added a kind of freshness and/or looseness to the flow. It is a counter to DonL's inexhaustible seriousness or earnestness. Recall that dialogue was not meant to be primarily about content so much as about the nature of the flow or process, its blocks and pathways. And anyway, a lot of the huge batch of recent posts are mercifully brief.
don
On Dec 18, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Susan Clemons wrote:
I for one will not keep participating if this is the style that dialogue is going to take.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
Irene, I am surprised. Have you really not spotted who Alan is? He has revealed his identity a number of times already. I think Susan was the first to spot it almost immediately he came on line. It took me a while longer. So far I have no complaint. What he has been doing here, along with Rob and Pat, seems to have opened some doors to a looser approach to it all and I like that. I did, by the way, Google Alan but found nobody.
don
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 00:12:16 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:18:36 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation
In-Reply-To: <186138A9-AA0B-405F-B17F-22C74B9A4A4D@dc.rr.com>
References: <c47283890712160453q5d0112b2kdaed11b0a2da9398@mail.gmail.com>
<20739337-5807-446A-A370-DA2686551E14@dc.rr.com>
<c47283890712181449w322ba692ia82cb86c21c3a93c@mail.gmail.com>
<186138A9-AA0B-405F-B17F-22C74B9A4A4D@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712181512n3f552a48o731648ec103d2730@mail.gmail.com>
I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused
'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem
to think.
On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> From some musician friends, years ago.
> don
>
> On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
>
> It is usually called doodling.
>
> I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of information?
>
> On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective improvisation
> > central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions of a particular
> > song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a musical dialogue.
> > Individual improvisation is something else. From what little I know about
> > classical improvisation it is simply composing at the piano or other
> > instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of music or making
> > up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very different
> > category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section can never
> > be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does improvise in
> > this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a pianist, but
> > many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in this way, and
> > occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good. Anyway, to
> > me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or theme.butwhat impresses me most is that jazz musicians seem to be able to do it
> > together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new each time they take
> > off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it. I have yet to hear
> > of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you could point me to some.
> >
> > don
> >
> > don
> >
> > On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> >
> > DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many enfolded,
> > implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to answer him,
> > it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and musicologist
> > could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for starters, see
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_improvisation>
> >
> > It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
> >
> > The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions of
> > European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the
> > likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral
> > tradition.
> >
> > In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow
> > Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website
> > with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and
> > his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in
> > all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be
> > Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide.
> > Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the
> > Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of
> > his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance
> > of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I
> > think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just
> > recently here in the Village.
> > Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
> >
> > In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many years.
> > Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many 'methods', both
> > jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm putting together
> > my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the best of jazz and
> > classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I live that long!
> >
> > --
> > Irene
> > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >
> >
> >
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:20:34 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:26:55 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <476846F4.000011.03588@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <148977.21633.qm@web45811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
william <w@david-bohm.net> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url (#default#vml);} v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url (#default#vml) } We* could consider setting u..
...I am a bit busy at the moment, Pat, but I'll pick it up again later. For the time being, let me just say that this is leading up to passion. But not exactly the same kind of passion that we have talked about a few years ago. This "new" passion is a further development of the earlier version. It's more like a second order of passion corresponding with the equally "new" second order of suspension. But more later...
William
Re
Member:
"Pass
I
on"?
That 's holding
Some
Pro
Mise
Can you
Ex
Pand
Sum(e)
Bittaschuun
;-)
Humanimalan
* Hey Rob, look, this do'be'loved "we" agagagagain
---------------------------------
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:23:30 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:29:51 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712181512n3f552a48o731648ec103d2730@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <117445.72059.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
There is, to make "matters"
"Worse"
Also: Schnoodling (s'pelling??)
Any x-Lover did inform me not just
H.A.
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused 'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem to think.
On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
>From some musician friends, years ago.
don
On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
It is usually called doodling.
I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of information?
On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective improvisation central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions of a particular song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a musical dialogue. Individual improvisation is something else. From what little I know about classical improvisation it is simply composing at the piano or other instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of music or making up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very different category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section can never be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does improvise in this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a pianist, but many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in this way, and occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good. Anyway, to me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or theme.but what impresses me most
is that jazz musicians seem to be able to do it together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new each time they take off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it. I have yet to hear of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you could point me to some.
don
don
On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many enfolded, implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to answer him, it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and musicologist could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for starters, see
http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation
It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions of European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral tradition.
In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide. Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just recently here in the Village.
Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many years. Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many 'methods', both jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm putting together my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the best of jazz and classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I live that long!
--
Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 00:27:50 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:34:10 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation
In-Reply-To: <117445.72059.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <c47283890712181512n3f552a48o731648ec103d2730@mail.gmail.com>
<117445.72059.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712181527t6f5465f4r63a2149a7d86b89d@mail.gmail.com>
Peter-Alan, the only two people who can make me laugh are you and Charlie
Chaplin!
On Dec 18, 2007 6:23 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There is, to make "matters"
> "Worse"
> Also: *Schnoodling * (s'pelling??)
> Any x-Lover did inform me not just
>
> H.A.
>
> *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused
> 'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem
> to think.
>
> On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > >From some musician friends, years ago.
> > don
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> >
> > It is usually called doodling.
> >
> > I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of information?
> >
> > On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective improvisation
> > > central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions of a particular
> > > song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a musical dialogue.
> > > Individual improvisation is something else. From what little I know about
> > > classical improvisation it is simply composing at the piano or other
> > > instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of music or making
> > > up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very different
> > > category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section can never
> > > be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does improvise in
> > > this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a pianist, but
> > > many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in this way, and
> > > occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good. Anyway, to
> > > me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or theme.butwhat impresses me most is that jazz musicians seem to be able to do it
> > > together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new each time they take
> > > off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it. I have yet to hear
> > > of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you could point me to some.
> > >
> > > don
> > >
> > > don
> > >
> > > On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> > >
> > > DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many enfolded,
> > > implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to answer him,
> > > it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and musicologist
> > > could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for starters, see
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_improvisation>
> > >
> > > It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
> > >
> > > The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions of
> > > European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the
> > > likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral
> > > tradition.
> > >
> > > In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow
> > > Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website
> > > with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and
> > > his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in
> > > all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be
> > > Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide.
> > > Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the
> > > Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of
> > > his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance
> > > of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I
> > > think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just
> > > recently here in the Village.
> > > Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
> > >
> > > In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many
> > > years. Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many
> > > 'methods', both jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm
> > > putting together my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the
> > > best of jazz and classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I
> > > live that long!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Irene
> > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
--
Irene
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:30:37 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:36:58 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <644282B0-AF77-4D11-8CA7-7C51FDAC7B94@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <132829.54978.qm@web45809.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
There is a surgeon called deBakey. MIght he have performed the lobotomy?
Goodlord, does i wish, Don, Sir!
http://tinyurl.com/2mk9yn
;-o
Humanimal(i)an
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:37:45 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:50:47 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712181527t6f5465f4r63a2149a7d86b89d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <456306.83702.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Heeyheeyweey,
I is kiiddin not
But if I got in to
THAT
(schnoodling)
HERE
....... well, lets say so much: do you have aniiiiii idemage what that might get youusmeewee in to;-?
Huhuhumanimalan
Ps: Funni, look, y'our http://tinyurl.com/395cnp .... n here we go a'gain
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter-Alan, the only two people who can make me laugh are you and Charlie Chaplin!
On Dec 18, 2007 6:23 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is, to make "matters"
"Worse"
Also: Schnoodling (s'pelling??)
Any x-Lover did inform me not just
H.A.
Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused 'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem to think.
On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
>From some musician friends, years ago.
don
On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
It is usually called doodling.
I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of information?
On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective improvisation central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions of a particular song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a musical dialogue. Individual improvisation is something else. From what little I know about classical improvisation it is simply composing at the piano or other instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of music or making up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very different category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section can never be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does improvise in this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a pianist, but many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in this way, and occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good. Anyway, to me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or theme.but what impresses me most
is that jazz musicians seem to be able to do it together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new each time they take off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it. I have yet to hear of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you could point me to some.
don
don
On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many enfolded, implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to answer him, it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and musicologist could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for starters, see
http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation
It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions of European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral tradition.
In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide. Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just recently here in the Village.
Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many years. Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many 'methods', both jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm putting together my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the best of jazz and classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I live that long!
--
Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 19 00:46:27 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:52:47 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
In-Reply-To: <20071217.184239.3184.83.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20071217.184239.3184.83.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W39F04F189574C1EBB1EB4FDC630@phx.gbl>
oooh. i think that one might be done
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:39:51 -0500Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poemFrom: ae.dropper@juno.com
fullness pours out
and it all empties into white
the mounds of it - frozen overnight
worms throw up castsin the fine snow, crystals,
up close you can see
the colors - LOOK
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:03:41 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> writes:
worms throw up castsin the fine snow
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poemDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:40:52 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgPat, look at your letter below. Do you know why it has the message from Symantec on it? This is something that keeps turning up on people's e-mails, and it may be some kind of worm or virus.
don
On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:09 AM, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology.
Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested levels of files were found.
For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit
http://ses.symantec.com/
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Date: December 17, 2007 11:09:47 AM PST
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
fullness pours out
and it all empties into white
the mounds of it - frozen overnight
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:23:27 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> writes:
fullness pours out
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:00:04 -0500Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poemFrom: ae.dropper@juno.com
And it all empties into white.
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:43:40 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> writes:
Naming plays its oldest game.Somehow out of reach it dancesnine dances to itself. Nine dances
all in couples made of three.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines and dies again
so leave our light alone to be.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered onion light
from lullabies of thunder.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shame and calamine find us
shovelling blossom snow
Before the no, before the go,
before the be became, we will
become before the sun
has ever been born below.
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgDate: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:12:20 -0500Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poemFrom: ae.dropper@juno.com
Naming plays games with itself.Somewhere out of reach it dancesnine dances by itself
in "couples" made of three.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines and dies again
so leave our light alone.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered onion light
from lampshades worn as hats.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shade and calamine find us
shovelling a foot of snow
before the plows
before the dogs....
before the rain and sleet
will come
before the sun
was even born
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:14:42 -0500 "Irene Darcy" <irenedarcy@gmail.com> writes:
I: Word music Improvisation. Have a great day, everybody.
On Dec 16, 2007 4:13 AM, rob mooney < rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
Naming plays games with itself.Somewhere out of reach it dancesnine dances by itself.
And if we do not leave our light
we will be eaten by it long
before it shines.
Run apple certainties under
the spout, what memories they
bind in cankered light.
And we are leaves as always,
fallen from the sunburn tree.
Till shade and calamine find us.
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgDate: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:39:03 -0500
From: ae.dropper@juno.com
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Our poem
what? (Rob)
the naming plays with itselfsomewhere out of reach of the dance itself.
do our leaves
get eaten by light
before they fall?
we certainly have
to be careful of
skin cancer
and light!
previously,
it was sunburn.
we aren't leaves.
one size
doesn't fit all.
funni, rob, irene
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 01:48:56 +0000 rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> writes:
what?
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:54:42 -0500From: irenedarcy@gmail.comTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] noname 2I: We certainly have to be careful of skin cancer and light! Previously, it was sunburn. We aren't leaves. One size doesn't fit all.
On Dec 14, 2007 2:51 PM, rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
do our leaves get eaten by light before they fall?
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgDate: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:26:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] noname 2From: ae.dropper@juno.com
DIALOGUE DANCEA dialogue circle of trees, dancing treeswe do not sit in chairs but we stand in the woodswith the light filtering through our autumn leavesand we are dancing - our roots are our feet and our millions of toes, dancing.A wind comes and some of our leaves fallfrom some of our fingers, our million fingers, one for every dancing toe,one explication for every implicationour roots hidden, unknown but known constantly as thatwhich ever refuses namingwhile the naming plays with itselfsomewhere out of reach of the dance itself. -- funny
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:08:46 -0800 donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> writes:
Don't you think though, that maybe a bit of both is even more useful? Just so long as we don't turn the tree - or others - into objects that we "understand" completely. Actually, as I think of it, there is more than one way to understand understanding.
don
On Dec 13, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Alfred Landman wrote:
Hi Irene Darcy. If a brain wants to learn about trees, for instance, thought could simply spend time with them in their natural habitat etc (which is what many traditionally "primitive" people do). Breaking trees into their cellular components and so forth enables genetic manipulation of them, for instance, but this can't be said to "objectively" help one get to know a tree better than simply spending time with them. In fact, it does the precise opposite. This brain can never genuinely know a living organism that you've instrumentalized and objectified like that. AL Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Space and Time (Don F)From: ami_kes@juno.com (John A MIKES) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 16:59:24 EDT to: Bohm, Subject Space and TimeDear Don, nice wisdom in your Sep.25 'Space & Time note. Yet:(yourquote):>...<Foucault was right: there is no such epoque as the present one. His, or ours, does not matter. Past reflection does not match live experience.WE are the experiencers, not memory. So: hold your enthusiasm.Also: I was glad: A rare thing on this list a reference to David Bohm!I find this unending exchange "about the list-filling" redundant. In my (not so humble) opinion a list is like love: practice it, don't explain.If it does not live up to your expectations, there are other lists to choose from. Nobody can change BB or anybody else. Accept it or leave it. To explain one's views ABOUT participating: nice, but keep it short. Andhave mercy on the receiving parties: half a dozen posts per day per per- son in exorbitant length, or sometimes 5 consecutive attachments is rude. Who does not have the time to write short, should keep it. Length isnegligent.And to the following exchange I have a plagiarism from Doug Bilodeau, an acclaimed physicist from the JCS-list:(see below) - the 'exchange': *" >JPL:>"Shout, shout, let it all out>these are the things I can do without,>come on, I'm talking to you, come on.." whereupon " >>Wm:>>Pssst... not so loud, I think the others are meditating. William*Not so sure! I refer to my remark on a "no response" to a post:"si tacent clamant": Dough B: corrected me: "or: si tacent dormiunt". From: "Chris Hooley" < chooley@idnsi.net>Subject: Re: purpose of listDate: Fri, 03 Oct 97 18:24:15 PDTTo: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.ukHello All,I've heard nothing from the group for several days. So, I'm sending this message to check for echo. Regards ChrisFrom: "Chris Hooley" <chooley@idnsi.net>Subject: inside outDate: Fri, 03 Oct 97 18:19:50 PDT To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.ukReply-To: bohm_dialogue@rome.cis.plym.ac.uk Hello Everyone,I would share another thought that I found interesting. The gastrointestinal track is actually "outside" the body in the sense thatit's a long, open-ended tube. In the same way, "no-thing", which is (or can be seen to be) at the center of every manifested form, is continuous, contiguous to itself. It is "outside" the space/time form though when seenfrom within the form it appears to be isolated like droplets. My intuition is that we can focus (reside *as* attention) either on the form or on the un-form that borders it. The experience of attending to the un-form in-between can't be fullyrepresented, even to ourselves, I think, but experimenting with this viewing angle has been intriguing. Received: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:21:50 +0100 (BST)Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:19:21 +0100 (BST)From: maximus@dircon.co.uk (Barron Burrow)Subject: Re:intentional dying Extraordinary and moving message you sent us, Don ... Full of the *rightkind* of fight, too, I felt. For the struggle against cancer "intentionaldying" *feels* like the right way to go. And what you say about 'death-rebirth' through finding the right life-rhythms seems absolutely right:> ultradian rhythms. These involved 90 minute to 2 hour >cycles during which the body would, as it were, shift gears. The neural >chemistry changes, hemispheric dominance shifts and the body, during about>twenty minutes of each cycle, does its best to get into a quiet, >self-repair mode. As he put it, the unconscious parts of the organism would >try to go to work without the interference of the conscious mind. Normally,>our culture has trained us to override these cycles in order to get on with >our work. =I think there is great truth in this last remark. I find myself that it's sometimes the hardest thing to just ignore the world, and simply try to getback into touch with one's own internal rhythms; but there's no doubt that with practice you can get better at it. However, sooner or later you forget -- and have to learn the inexplicable and difficult (but ultimately veryrewarding) process all over again. What's difficult about it, I guess, is *acceptance* of dying -- "intentional dying" ... Bimodal-psa. helps me, because it puts me in touch with the deepest source of my own 'unlivedlines' (but there are clearly many ways to get back 'in touch'). I wldn't overdo it, on the email. I understand very well what Matti Vaittenen means when he says, today, " " ... but in a virtual world you donot get your hands dirty, you do not sweat; you just work overtime." But I've decided it's okay to just fade in and out. Because the truth surely is we are as much talking to ourselves as to each other: binary bits are NOTpeople ... On the other hand, I think of the Net in Kleinian analysis terms -- as a kind of substitute 'container'. Just as the mother can soothe away the infant's "nameless dread" so too can this kind of dialogue. There's noobligation to post even weekly -- just fade in and out when the mood takes. So, sorry to see you go, Matti -- but in the end I think the world may go through a phase transition, led by the Net, that gradually puts everythingthe right way round again, and dethrones the present over-emphasis on a top-down culture that *separates* mind and body. So I may fade in and out a lot, but I'm staying with it. Gustava (?) in S. America brought up theenormous problem of world over-population recently; I felt bad that no one responded. It's a diabolical problem -- but one which in Europe seems to have been largely overcome (e.g. Spain and Russia's population is falling --and most other nations in Europe are not being over-populated hand-over-fist). Catholic ideology on birth-control seems hopelessly unrealistic, and the worst effects seem to be in S. America.Don has summed up an incredible eleven years of his life-struggle in oneshort email message, and I feel grateful that he has shared that -- with*me*. It reminds me of something that is so easily forgotten -- our commonhumanity.I can see the irony of having yr message bounced back with a 'fatal error' note :-) On my kitchen table, Don, is a copy of "The Unfolding Meaning" (Routledge, 1987) (it's odd your saying "perseverance furthers" becausesomeone in Australia recently said the same thing)( -- and the other day I re-read yr Introduction, rather neat, I thought. And now here I am speaking to one of its authors! >A couple of feelings guide me, acting as warnings that I'm drifting: on the>one side is the "hope of winning", and on the other is "self pity." >>The affirmations that I'm using aren't self strenghtening, at least>directly; "What could be a better experience than being the unfolding>universe? Having given up, I can relax! Etc." Unfolding meaning, yes, but also knowing how to get in touch with 'unlivedlines' -- parts of oneself one had last been in touch with at the moment ofbirth, for instance. Because without that there is no proper dying; and so no full living either. No? I think Julia has hit on something important when she says:>>is dialogue about facilitating the intentional dying of the ego self?>>julia--
Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search Charades!
Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search Charades! info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue-- Irene
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 19 00:49:47 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:56:08 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <019901c8410b$8ce34750$f277480c@HOME>
References: <466461.42128.qm@web45814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><004501c840b7$594becc0$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W360C871E5B94A44C7CE328DC620@phx.gbl><00f901c840e0$9e4b5c10$b5c16018@DL01><00a401c840e5$c0be8920$f277480c@HOME><018001c840e7$9f7dbd60$b5c16018@DL01><014901c840e9$ebf72760$f277480c@HOME>
<BAY123-W32BBB589EBA7C32852E6B1DC620@phx.gbl>
<019901c8410b$8ce34750$f277480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W1864345D6F7B620682C8CDC630@phx.gbl>
yes. not one.
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:18:08 -0700
Does this question mean you have never read any of my posts?
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
anything to report, honey?
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:17:54 -0700
Why not investigate that? -- dl
That seems like such a silly question to me dl. I've been investigating that for the last 30 years.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
What if we don't do any of those things but simply live within it? -- Susan
I like that idea! That's the idea of the Greek logos ... which meant reason, ratio, meaning ..., etc. Seems reasonable to me that Bohm like it also. Why not investigate that? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I mean we all use the word mean, meaning, etc. A philosopher said that the question of meaning is meaningful.
Are we all using some thing that we know not, neither stand under, over or beside? dl
What if we don't do any of those things but simply live within it?
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I mean we all use the word mean, meaning, etc. A philosopher said that the question of meaning is meaningful.
Are we all using some thingK that we know not, neither stand under, over or beside?
Can it be acceptable that meaning is only somethingK manmade, and that otherwise, everything including us is meaningless? Is there meaninglessness?
Is the question of meaning itself meaningless?
I've been trying to give attention to the idea advanced by some thinkers that the Greek logos has been interpreted as meaning. What might that mean? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
What is meaning? how do you mean?
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:15:59 -0500
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?)) -- Alan
Does the question of food, etc., imply that man, that we live by bread alone?
Maybe what is important about QT is the idea of meaning. What is the meaning?
What is meaning? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan E. DeBakey
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Tea?? Mio dio Al, what are you smoking, drinking, brewing? Like: Does pouring (hot) water over (tea)leaves order - explicated ;-o
Al, I am into "real"-life stuff (examples), all that (particle)theoretical talk gives me goose-bumps ;........}}
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?))
AlanAlfred Landman <landmana@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Rob Mooney. T.e.a.
AL.rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
there is asking and saying at any rate
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:14:42 -0700
I would say there is definitely mind. Although it might not be what you and I would call mind.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.) In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true? Regina??Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientistsR.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality. Source:http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm05.02-- Abstract No:824
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 19 00:51:16 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:57:36 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <853595.77218.qm@web45815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <019901c8410b$8ce34750$f277480c@HOME>
<853595.77218.qm@web45815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W251C31F18EF23EBC5A4D9ADC630@phx.gbl>
ha! very amusing.
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:26:56 -0800From: a.debakey@yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgJoy@worldnet.att.netwrote:
Does this question mean you have never http://tinyurl.com/2pkwvv
any of my posts?
Susan
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 00:51:28 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Wed Dec 19 00:57:50 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation
In-Reply-To: <456306.83702.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <c47283890712181527t6f5465f4r63a2149a7d86b89d@mail.gmail.com>
<456306.83702.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712181551n20fff179k34367065b805fa1a@mail.gmail.com>
I: In terms of content, I have NO idea, but in terms of EFFECT, oh brother,
do I!
On Dec 18, 2007 6:37 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Heeyheeyweey,
> I is kiiddin not
> But if I got in to
> THAT
> (schnoodling)
> HERE
>
> ....... well, lets say so much: do you have aniiiiii idemage what that
> might get youusmeewee in to;-?
>
> Huhuhumanimalan
>
> Ps: Funni, look, y'our *http://tinyurl.com/395cnp .... n here we go a'gain
> *
>
>
>
>
> *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> Peter-Alan, the only two people who can make me laugh are you and Charlie
> Chaplin!
>
> On Dec 18, 2007 6:23 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > There is, to make "matters"
> > "Worse"
> > Also: *Schnoodling * (s'pelling??)
> > Any x-Lover did inform me not just
> >
> > H.A.
> >
> > *Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> > I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused
> > 'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem
> > to think.
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >From some musician friends, years ago.
> > > don
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> > >
> > > It is usually called doodling.
> > >
> > > I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of information?
> > >
> > > On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective
> > > > improvisation central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions
> > > > of a particular song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a
> > > > musical dialogue. Individual improvisation is something else. From what
> > > > little I know about classical improvisation it is simply composing at the
> > > > piano or other instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of
> > > > music or making up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very
> > > > different category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section
> > > > can never be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does
> > > > improvise in this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a
> > > > pianist, but many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in
> > > > this way, and occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good.
> > > > Anyway, to me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or
> > > > theme.but what impresses me most is that jazz musicians seem to be
> > > > able to do it together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new each
> > > > time they take off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it. I
> > > > have yet to hear of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you could
> > > > point me to some.
> > > > don
> > > >
> > > > don
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many enfolded,
> > > > implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to answer him,
> > > > it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and musicologist
> > > > could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for starters, see
> > > >
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_improvisation>
> > > >
> > > > It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
> > > >
> > > > The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions of
> > > > European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the
> > > > likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral
> > > > tradition.
> > > >
> > > > In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow
> > > > Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website
> > > > with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and
> > > > his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in
> > > > all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be
> > > > Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide.
> > > > Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the
> > > > Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of
> > > > his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance
> > > > of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I
> > > > think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just
> > > > recently here in the Village.
> > > > Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
> > > >
> > > > In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many
> > > > years. Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many
> > > > 'methods', both jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm
> > > > putting together my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the
> > > > best of jazz and classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I
> > > > live that long!
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Irene
> > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
> > it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
> >
> >
> > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Irene
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
--
Irene
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:58:22 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:04:43 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation and Content and
Effect
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712181551n20fff179k34367065b805fa1a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <879425.55589.qm@web45804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
One coms w/o the othr (one) ;____?
I had no idemage !
Humanimalan
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: In terms of content, I have NO idea, but in terms of EFFECT, oh brother, do I!
On Dec 18, 2007 6:37 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
Heeyheeyweey,
I is kiiddin not
But if I got in to
THAT
(schnoodling)
HERE
....... well, lets say so much: do you have aniiiiii idemage what that might get youusmeewee in to;-?
Huhuhumanimalan
Ps: Funni, look, y'our http://tinyurl.com/395cnp .... n here we go a'gain
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter-Alan, the only two people who can make me laugh are you and Charlie Chaplin!
On Dec 18, 2007 6:23 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is, to make "matters"
"Worse"
Also: Schnoodling (s'pelling??)
Any x-Lover did inform me not just
H.A.
Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused 'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem to think.
On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
>From some musician friends, years ago.
don
On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
It is usually called doodling.
I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of information?
On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective improvisation central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions of a particular song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a musical dialogue. Individual improvisation is something else. From what little I know about classical improvisation it is simply composing at the piano or other instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of music or making up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very different category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section can never be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does improvise in this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a pianist, but many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in this way, and occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good. Anyway, to me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or theme.but what impresses me most
is that jazz musicians seem to be able to do it together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new each time they take off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it. I have yet to hear of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you could point me to some.
don
don
On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many enfolded, implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to answer him, it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and musicologist could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for starters, see
http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation
It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions of European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral tradition.
In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide. Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just recently here in the Village.
Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many years. Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many 'methods', both jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm putting together my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the best of jazz and classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I live that long!
--
Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
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Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:54:50 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:07:53 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W1864345D6F7B620682C8CDC630@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <450642.8888.qm@web45813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Same here, look, i never "read":
http://www.adventuresinece.com/2005_0725BookPhotos50003.JPG
Hum Al
rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
.hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } yes. not one.
---------------------------------
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:18:08 -0700
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Does this question mean you have never read any of my posts?
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
anything to report, honey?
---------------------------------
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:17:54 -0700
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} Why not investigate that? -- dl
That seems like such a silly question to me dl. I've been investigating that for the last 30 years.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
What if we don't do any of those things but simply live within it? -- Susan
I like that idea! That's the idea of the Greek logos ... which meant reason, ratio, meaning ..., etc. Seems reasonable to me that Bohm like it also. Why not investigate that? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I mean we all use the word mean, meaning, etc. A philosopher said that the question of meaning is meaningful.
Are we all using some thing that we know not, neither stand under, over or beside? dl
What if we don't do any of those things but simply live within it?
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I mean we all use the word mean, meaning, etc. A philosopher said that the question of meaning is meaningful.
Are we all using some thingK that we know not, neither stand under, over or beside?
Can it be acceptable that meaning is only somethingK manmade, and that otherwise, everything including us is meaningless? Is there meaninglessness?
Is the question of meaning itself meaningless?
I've been trying to give attention to the idea advanced by some thinkers that the Greek logos has been interpreted as meaning. What might that mean? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
What is meaning?
how do you mean?
---------------------------------
From: donlay@knology.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:15:59 -0500
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?)) -- Alan
Does the question of food, etc., imply that man, that we live by bread alone?
Maybe what is important about QT is the idea of meaning. What is the meaning?
What is meaning? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan E. DeBakey
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Tea?? Mio dio Al, what are you smoking, drinking, brewing? Like: Does pouring (hot) water over (tea)leaves order - explicated ;-o
Al, I am into "real"-life stuff (examples), all that (particle)theoretical talk gives me goose-bumps ;........}}
Can one eat them, live off them (too---?))
Alan
Alfred Landman <landmana@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Rob Mooney. T.e.a.
AL.
rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} there is asking and saying at any rate
---------------------------------
From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:14:42 -0700
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} I would say there is definitely mind. Although it might not be what you and I would call mind.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for ?there?.)
In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
Regina
??
Consciousness and sufism: A new paradigm for western scientists
R.A.Haag (331 West Colonial Highway, Hamilton, VA 20158, USA)
Scientists seeking to understand 'consciousness' appear to ignore colleagues who say that the qualities ascribed to external reality only dwell within us and that what we conceive of as 'reality' is enfolded in human consciousness. Reality is a manifestation of our thoughts and not a property of the external world, but involves our presence as conscious observers. The universe achieves a concrete existence as a result of our perceptions. Our concept of the reality created by our brain and senses cause us not only to misunderstand consciousness, but render us unable even to imagine what it might be.
Neuroscientists are just beginning to examine the misapprehensions of our senses and how these lead us to act and think as though we have an accurate understanding of consciousness. However we may perceive reality in the waking state of consciousness, it is not the autonomous separate 'things' our senses behold. Pribram and Bohm's holographic analog for the 'implicate' order beyond our senses illustrates how reality is an illusion. They argue that our minds not only enfold matter, but our bodies and the entire material universe as well and that the cosmos, matter, life, and consciousness itself are all projections of 'the ground of all that is', in ways which scientists have yet to discover, though Pribram speculates that the mystics may have discovered a way to see the implicate order, by learning how to 'abrogate the brain's retrieval systems and neuroelectrical codes.' Such scientific speculations challenge many cherished concepts, including language itself, because in
the 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality, matter, or mind.
Because human thought is a by-product of our brain and senses, it is ever changing and limited and, thus, the Sufis say that the old subject-verb-object paradigm is not a valid paradigm for scientists to understand ultimate questions. Our sensory prison and language cause us to live on the surface of things and to not be aware of absolute reality. To understand consciousness, scientists must learn a totally different paradigm. Instead of always trying to satisfy themselves by studying the natural world, scientists must come to learn how to investigate inwardly. They must stop equating sensory experiences with true knowledge, which can be acquired only by directly cognizing infinite existence through focusing attention and energy on a specific point in the heart to activate a hitherto unsuspected capacity or 'knowing'. Knowing humanity in all its hidden dimensions must be the fundamental principle for all endeavors in science and religion. Sufism, the science of
Self-knowledge, is the tradition Pribram thought might exist to teach humanity how to abrogate the brain to behold the implicate order.
The Sufis say that both true science and true religion are but reciprocal stages of the same search for truth about existence itself. One focuses on what we take to be the 'outer', the other on 'inner' reality, but these are simply artificial boundaries created by our 'feeling' mind. To know the unity underlying science and religion, the reality of existence, requires a different paradigm--heart consciousness. And, Sufism is that reality.
Source:
http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/Tucson/5.htm
05.02-- Abstract No:824
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 19 01:01:40 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:08:01 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><035301c840fb$4d1463d0$b5c16018@DL01>
<c47283890712171432w7e5a633ej7673469675579782@mail.gmail.com>
<03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W173CB36371D1797F0A9CCDDC5C0@phx.gbl>
"poems are epiphanic documents and show the writer in the process of making their discoveries, so that the reader can re-enact and re-live them, not merely feel their after effects or learn the poet's wise conclusions."
(Don patterson)
I expect this goes for C++, painting, music, dancing, sculpture, photography, millenery, etc. Maybe even when Don F chooses a tee shirt...
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:22:32 -0500
ISmeaningfulTM to say the answer to these questions is yes, and to say that Bohm, talking about infinite subtlety and when he says it is as far "in there" inside the atom as it is "out there" through the universe substantiates the view I'm trying to learn how to explicate.
Where or what is the personal identity while being sensitive enough to "hear" the direction that amounts to improv?
Once again, my programming friend says there is no identity movement while writing code. If there was, he would be unable to write code because C++, he says, is not the language appropriate for the personal identity. That is, personal identity simply has no meaning in the Visual Basic or C++ language.
Are you aware of Irene's personal identity movement while doing improv? -- dl
\
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: We're getting into the idea of Nada Brahma, now. And to say more, I'd have to go get my book.It would have been more accurate to say one creates a time-space line when one moves, I think. Why do all the good things happen at once? I'm working on Bach Goldberg. My Eurhythmics teacher is giving a three day workshop soon on what an improviser can learn from them, and I'm preparing for it. I would love to have heard Bach sit down and jam with Paquito d'Rivera; throw in Sidney Bechet for good measure on clarinet, and Eugene Ysaye on violin.
On Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.
What about the idea that every time you move, you are using time and space?
Is there time and space absent homo-sappo, prior to homo-sappo? Perhaps more precisely, is there some actuality indicated by time and space that is prior to homo-sappo? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Irene Darcy
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I: Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space. And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
To be or not to be? Is there a choice? Is the question the problem? What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is implicate is explicate?)
On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- RobMaybe. I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think of the identity of things including us.I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, with the language or knowing system of imagination.It's a bit spooky to think that us is not. That is, the notness or non being must be addressed. The anxiety does not go away simply by acting and pretending it is not there. Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being. dl http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message ----- From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? the old old thought occurs -- no us?
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breathThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl -- Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue-- Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
_________________________________________________________________
Fancy some celeb spotting?
https://www.celebmashup.com
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 19 01:06:27 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:12:48 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <382459E1-E035-43C4-94F6-8E81D22C36B8@dc.rr.com>
References: <376217.5644.qm@web45812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
<013a01c840e3$24c34530$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W7B97CD182F3C04B886551DC620@phx.gbl>
<382459E1-E035-43C4-94F6-8E81D22C36B8@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W4B13472186517A98DDC8FDC5C0@phx.gbl>
happy solstice Don F. (and God bless us each and everyone, especially tiny url)
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:59:15 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgI was waiting for a "merry christmas" at at the end of this.
Dancer and Vixen
On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:01 PM, rob mooney wrote:
yes. and breathing and sensing and meaning and joy take time and space
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:29:29 -0500
Time and space is used when language is used to talk about space and time. Words evolved to accommodate the view that space and time are useful. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan E. DeBakey
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
USING time, space.... Please, Donlay, give us an example how Donlay "uses" ... time?.... space?.... ;-)
AlanDon Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breath
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.
Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breath
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:52:41 -0500
"is there space, time causality in the implicate order",
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). -- Jeff
Hi Jeff.
Does the question imply space or time by using the idea expressed by "in"?
If so, does this imply the language we use is not adequate to address the meaning of the question? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Webb
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Hi,I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in the implicate order.If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). So the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the implicate order.I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.Jeff>> In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the> 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,> matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for> ?there?.)>> In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,> matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?>> Regina>>> ??>info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search Charades!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
_________________________________________________________________
Who's friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 01:07:31 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:13:52 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation and Content and
Effect
In-Reply-To: <879425.55589.qm@web45804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <c47283890712181551n20fff179k34367065b805fa1a@mail.gmail.com>
<879425.55589.qm@web45804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712181607pb944deeu258cc0454146e2@mail.gmail.com>
I: I can just IMAGE-ine.
On Dec 18, 2007 6:58 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
> One coms w/o the othr (one) ;____?
>
> I had no idemage !
>
> Humanimalan
>
> *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I: In terms of content, I have NO idea, but in terms of EFFECT, oh
> brother, do I!
>
> On Dec 18, 2007 6:37 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Heeyheeyweey,
> > I is kiiddin not
> > But if I got in to
> > THAT
> > (schnoodling)
> > HERE
> >
> > ....... well, lets say so much: do you have aniiiiii idemage what that
> > might get youusmeewee in to;-?
> >
> > Huhuhumanimalan
> >
> > Ps: Funni, look, y'our *http://tinyurl.com/395cnp .... n here we go
> > a'gain*
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> > Peter-Alan, the only two people who can make me laugh are you and
> > Charlie Chaplin!
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2007 6:23 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > There is, to make "matters"
> > > "Worse"
> > > Also: *Schnoodling * (s'pelling??)
> > > Any x-Lover did inform me not just
> > >
> > > H.A.
> > >
> > > *Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
> > >
> > > I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused
> > > 'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem
> > > to think.
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >From some musician friends, years ago.
> > > > don
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It is usually called doodling.
> > > >
> > > > I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of information?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective
> > > > > improvisation central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions
> > > > > of a particular song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a
> > > > > musical dialogue. Individual improvisation is something else. From what
> > > > > little I know about classical improvisation it is simply composing at the
> > > > > piano or other instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of
> > > > > music or making up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very
> > > > > different category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section
> > > > > can never be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does
> > > > > improvise in this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a
> > > > > pianist, but many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in
> > > > > this way, and occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good.
> > > > > Anyway, to me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or
> > > > > theme.but what impresses me most is that jazz musicians seem to be
> > > > > able to do it together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new each
> > > > > time they take off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it. I
> > > > > have yet to hear of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you could
> > > > > point me to some.
> > > > > don
> > > > >
> > > > > don
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many
> > > > > enfolded, implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to
> > > > > answer him, it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and
> > > > > musicologist could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for
> > > > > starters, see
> > > > >
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_improvisation>
> > > > >
> > > > > It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
> > > > >
> > > > > The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions
> > > > > of European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the
> > > > > likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral
> > > > > tradition.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow
> > > > > Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website
> > > > > with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and
> > > > > his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in
> > > > > all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be
> > > > > Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide.
> > > > > Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the
> > > > > Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of
> > > > > his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance
> > > > > of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I
> > > > > think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just
> > > > > recently here in the Village.
> > > > > Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
> > > > >
> > > > > In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many
> > > > > years. Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many
> > > > > 'methods', both jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm
> > > > > putting together my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the
> > > > > best of jazz and classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I
> > > > > live that long!
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Irene
> > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
> > > it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
> > >
> > >
> > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Irene
> > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
> > it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
> >
> >
> > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Irene
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
--
Irene
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 19 01:08:16 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:14:37 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <8E62992E-CB4A-4FD0-B267-A050FBAE608A@dc.rr.com>
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
<003101c840b4$1a0909b0$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W316D168A86355AA8647C79DC620@phx.gbl>
<00e501c840df$bb92bda0$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W3205646DF39FCB075F9CE5DC620@phx.gbl>
<1F7DA20A-E59A-4220-978F-3AA284BBD26C@dc.rr.com>
<BAY123-W17D702155BD553E462636EDC620@phx.gbl>
<8E62992E-CB4A-4FD0-B267-A050FBAE608A@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W3142D1739711E2E101EA09DC5C0@phx.gbl>
and where would that be Don? over the rainbow? through the looking glass? in a dialogue?
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:00:22 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgOR My Space.
don
On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:04 PM, rob mooney wrote:
why would I single you out Don?
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:42:14 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgShould be me, no?
X
On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:37 AM, rob mooney wrote:
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? the old old thought occurs -- no us?
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breath
The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.
Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breath
From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:52:41 -0500
"is there space, time causality in the implicate order",
If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). -- Jeff
Hi Jeff.
Does the question imply space or time by using the idea expressed by "in"?
If so, does this imply the language we use is not adequate to address the meaning of the question? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Webb
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
Hi,I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in the implicate order.If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). So the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the implicate order.I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.Jeff>> In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the> 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,> matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for> ?there?.)>> In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,> matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?>> Regina>>> ??>info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Everything in one place? All new Windows Live!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search Charades!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
_________________________________________________________________
Who's friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml
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From a.debakey at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 01:09:00 2007
From: a.debakey at yahoo.com (Alan E. DeBakey)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:15:21 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation and Content and
Effect
In-Reply-To: <c47283890712181607pb944deeu258cc0454146e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <826092.3722.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
http://tinyurl.com/2fluav
Dig it al an'.....
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: I can just IMAGE-ine.
On Dec 18, 2007 6:58 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
One coms w/o the othr (one) ;____?
I had no idemage !
Humanimalan
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: In terms of content, I have NO idea, but in terms of EFFECT, oh brother, do I!
On Dec 18, 2007 6:37 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
Heeyheeyweey,
I is kiiddin not
But if I got in to
THAT
(schnoodling)
HERE
....... well, lets say so much: do you have aniiiiii idemage what that might get youusmeewee in to;-?
Huhuhumanimalan
Ps: Funni, look, y'our http://tinyurl.com/395cnp .... n here we go a'gain
Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter-Alan, the only two people who can make me laugh are you and Charlie Chaplin!
On Dec 18, 2007 6:23 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is, to make "matters"
"Worse"
Also: Schnoodling (s'pelling??)
Any x-Lover did inform me not just
H.A.
Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com> wrote:
I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused 'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem to think.
On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
>From some musician friends, years ago.
don
On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
It is usually called doodling.
I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of information?
On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective improvisation central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions of a particular song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a musical dialogue. Individual improvisation is something else. From what little I know about classical improvisation it is simply composing at the piano or other instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of music or making up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very different category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section can never be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does improvise in this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a pianist, but many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in this way, and occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good. Anyway, to me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or theme.but what impresses me most
is that jazz musicians seem to be able to do it together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new each time they take off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it. I have yet to hear of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you could point me to some.
don
don
On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many enfolded, implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to answer him, it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and musicologist could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for starters, see
http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation
It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
The invention of the printing press, and the cultural assumptions of European society had a great deal to do with relegating the genius of the likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had for oral tradition.
In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide. Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just recently here in the Village.
Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many years. Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many 'methods', both jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm putting together my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the best of jazz and classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I live that long!
--
Irene
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 01:14:06 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:20:27 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Assumptions and Improvisation and Content and
Effect
In-Reply-To: <826092.3722.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <c47283890712181607pb944deeu258cc0454146e2@mail.gmail.com>
<826092.3722.qm@web45803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c47283890712181614j6a5b197fve3cbc17b05aac3d4@mail.gmail.com>
I: One more sobering, fragmenting, thing to deal with. Somebody, somehow,
needs to counter it.
On Dec 18, 2007 7:09 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
> *http://tinyurl.com/2fluav*
> **
> *Dig it al an'.....*
>
>
> *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> I: I can just IMAGE-ine.
>
> On Dec 18, 2007 6:58 PM, Alan E. DeBakey <a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > One coms w/o the othr (one) ;____?
> >
> > I had no idemage !
> >
> > Humanimalan
> >
> > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> > I: In terms of content, I have NO idea, but in terms of EFFECT, oh
> > brother, do I!
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2007 6:37 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Heeyheeyweey,
> > > I is kiiddin not
> > > But if I got in to
> > > THAT
> > > (schnoodling)
> > > HERE
> > >
> > > ....... well, lets say so much: do you have aniiiiii idemage what that
> > > might get youusmeewee in to;-?
> > >
> > > Huhuhumanimalan
> > >
> > > Ps: Funni, look, y'our *http://tinyurl.com/395cnp .... n here we go
> > > a'gain *
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
> > >
> > > Peter-Alan, the only two people who can make me laugh are you and
> > > Charlie Chaplin!
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2007 6:23 PM, Alan E. DeBakey < a.debakey@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > There is, to make "matters"
> > > > "Worse"
> > > > Also: *Schnoodling * (s'pelling??)
> > > > Any x-Lover did inform me not just
> > > >
> > > > H.A.
> > > >
> > > > *Irene Darcy < irenedarcy@gmail.com>* wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I: I suggest you double check with them. You seem to have confused
> > > > 'doodling' with 'noodling', and 'noodling' is not as respected as you seem
> > > > to think.
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 18, 2007 5:56 PM, donald factor <DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >From some musician friends, years ago.
> > > > > don
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It is usually called doodling.
> > > > >
> > > > > I: Just curious, Don. Where did you get that piece of
> > > > > information?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 16, 2007 2:36 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When I think of improvisation, I think of the collective
> > > > > > improvisation central to jazz, based on the chord and rhythm progressions
> > > > > > of a particular song that the group has begun playing. I think of it as a
> > > > > > musical dialogue. Individual improvisation is something else. From what
> > > > > > little I know about classical improvisation it is simply composing at the
> > > > > > piano or other instrument, inventing variations on a pre-existing piece of
> > > > > > music or making up a cadenza or such and not writing it down. It is a very
> > > > > > different category from jazz improvisation in which each improvised section
> > > > > > can never be repeated. Almost anyone who plays an instrument can and does
> > > > > > improvise in this sense. It is usually called doodling. I am not much of a
> > > > > > pianist, but many times, just for fun, I have played around at the piano in
> > > > > > this way, and occasionally have come up with stuff that sounded pretty good.
> > > > > > Anyway, to me, all improvisation is based on some pre-existing score or
> > > > > > theme.but what impresses me most is that jazz musicians seem to
> > > > > > be able to do it together aaaand to come up with something fresh and new
> > > > > > each time they take off on the same piece. That it, the good ones can do it.
> > > > > > I have yet to hear of collective classical improvisation. But maybe you
> > > > > > could point me to some.
> > > > > > don
> > > > > >
> > > > > > don
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Irene Darcy wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DF's last post on this topic yesterday contained so many
> > > > > > enfolded, implied - most likely unintentionally - assumptions, that to
> > > > > > answer him, it would take the kind of in depth work a music historian and
> > > > > > musicologist could turn into a doctoral dissertation. However, for
> > > > > > starters, see
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.Sorg/wiki/Musical_improvisation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_improvisation>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It compares jazz and classical improvisation traditions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The invention of the printing press, and the cultural
> > > > > > assumptions of European society had a great deal to do with relegating the
> > > > > > genius of the likes of Bach to the category of the disrespect it has-had
> > > > > > for oral tradition.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the Wiki article, Eric Barnhill is mentioned. He is a fellow
> > > > > > Dalcrozian, and studied with my Dalcroze teacher. He has his own website
> > > > > > with original audio samples. Not mentioned is David Darling, cellist, and
> > > > > > his organization Music for People whose purpose is to bring improvisation in
> > > > > > all musical genres back to the people. Music for People can also be
> > > > > > Googled. His workshops are attended by many, and are presented world wide.
> > > > > > Neither is mentioned Paul Winter, currently in residence at St john the
> > > > > > Divine here in NYC. I've attended many beautiful improvisation concerts of
> > > > > > his. He is in a stylistic category of his own. And a recent acquaintance
> > > > > > of mine whose name I'd have to go pull up whose ensemble, The Mad Coyote (I
> > > > > > think it's called) can be Googled and who performs in various venues. Just
> > > > > > recently here in the Village.
> > > > > > Classical musicians are rising up in revolt!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In closing, let me say that I have been working on this for many
> > > > > > years. Have done a lot of research, and have studied a great many
> > > > > > 'methods', both jazz and classical, and some Indian. As I teach myself, I'm
> > > > > > putting together my own 'method' that integrates what I consider to be the
> > > > > > best of jazz and classical approaches, and intend to include Salsa, if I
> > > > > > live that long!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Irene
> > > > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
> > > > it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Irene
> > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
> > > it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
> > >
> > >
> > > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Irene
> > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
> > it now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
> >
> >
> > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Irene
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ+>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
--
Irene
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 19 01:15:05 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:21:25 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <1DF60B92-466C-4F19-9BB7-3A8583D658AB@dc.rr.com>
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th><007701c840c1$3c9f5580$b5c16018@DL01><009501c840c9$c9da9a10$b5c16018@DL01><00ae01c840cb$c07ac830$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W879FB36B103BA98E4068CDC620@phx.gbl>
<010801c840e1$de342e00$b5c16018@DL01>
<BAY123-W350E74A4BF40EED8D77188DC620@phx.gbl>
<0B6839C7-B24F-4F22-A7A3-2354F8D15B6B@dc.rr.com>
<BAY123-W378C54AF712FEB739B63DEDC620@phx.gbl>
<1DF60B92-466C-4F19-9BB7-3A8583D658AB@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W211A0D57827E6DA9A95FEBDC5C0@phx.gbl>
i don't think it necessarily has to spoil it. with poetry anyway Don Patterson or Ruth Padel will go into the fricatives and the consonal rhymes and assonance and all the rest and the general affect (usually for me) is - oh, I see. So the understanding is furthered. I expect a grasp of geology probably adds to the appreciation of a landscape? Dunno - what do you think?
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity MovementDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:15:47 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgBut some part of you does. The question is: does looking for that part spoil it all?
don
On Dec 17, 2007, at 12:42 PM, rob mooney wrote:
Don Patterson the English poet says that you can think of poems as something like a natural object, produced by us (or midwifed or something) out of our naturalness. I'm not sure you have to understand a hill or a spider or a waterfall to love it
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity MovementDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:31:21 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgI don't understand many of my favorite poems. I don't understand a lot of my favorite art.
But some part of me must. The conscious part, the ego, is not the whole thing. There is
more, always morel.
don
On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:59 AM, rob mooney wrote:
dl: Surely a poem need not be understood in order to have meaning, be meaningful? dl I think this is important. not just poems. many meaningful things.
She said what? About who? Shameful celebrity quotes on Search Star!
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
_________________________________________________________________
Telly addicts unite!
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/tvtown.shtml
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk Wed Dec 19 01:17:30 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Wed Dec 19 01:23:51 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity Movement
In-Reply-To: <DC320204-5FAA-48B5-8B7E-7DBF1F14EEC0@dc.rr.com>
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com><476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th><007701c840c1$3c9f5580$b5c16018@DL01><009501c840c9$c9da9a10$b5c16018@DL01><00ae01c840cb$c07ac830$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W879FB36B103BA98E4068CDC620@phx.gbl><010801c840e1$de342e00$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W350E74A4BF40EED8D77188DC620@phx.gbl>
<0B6839C7-B24F-4F22-A7A3-2354F8D15B6B@dc.rr.com>
<BAY123-W378C54AF712FEB739B63DEDC620@phx.gbl>
<028201c840f2$bed78dc0$b5c16018@DL01>
<DC320204-5FAA-48B5-8B7E-7DBF1F14EEC0@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W9CF810AFD84CBA506BBC9DC5C0@phx.gbl>
i don't think art bears meaning it just is meaning probably this goes for everything else to.
- - i mean
From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension of Identity MovementDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:17:16 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSee what I mean?
don
On Dec 17, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Don Lay wrote:
I'm not sure you have to understand a hill or a spider or a waterfall to love it
On the view that understand means to stand under an articulated view, maybe we could appreciate a poetic explication even though that which is explicated might have no usual cultural meaning, no every day meaning.
Maybe the rhyme or cadence could be a bearer of meaning when word definitions, limitations cannot.
Maybe much of music is this way also, and also dance as art, perhaps even design in graphic art.
Then the question: what does music explicate (Irene), what does graphic and/or color design, dance, etc., explicate?
And what is explicated by the poetry created by Pat and Rob? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: rob mooney
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspe