From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Oct 21 01:15:35 2006 From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com) Date: Sun Oct 22 02:17:02 2006 Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate Message-ID: <20061020.191545.2116.20.ae.dropper@juno.com> HUMANS ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. (R) Making fragmentation possible. pat On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:26:49 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes: Don L: Do you see how human being is different from all other creatures? -- dbl rodger: MOSTLY NO. MOTHERS AND BABIES CALL OUT FOR EACH OTHER WHEN CRISIS -OR FARMING- SEPARATES THEM. THE BASIC BEHAVIORAL, EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE SEEMS TO BE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. EXCEPT FOR HOW HUMANS ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. Don L: Ever see another creature in traffic court; court for nonpayment of child-support; traffric fines? In school studying for finals? In line for flu shots? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 10:00 AM Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate Rodger__ in answer to: Don L: Do you not recognize that homo-saps are altered by language, Rodger: BY ALTERED DO YOU MEAN DIFFERENT? HAVE YOU EVER SPENT MUCH TIME IN THE WILD, LISTENED TO HOW ANIMALS TELL EACH OTHER OF THE COMINGS AND GOINGS OF PREDATORS AND FRIENDLY CRITTERS -- ALL THE DIFFERENT SOUNDS THEY USE -- WHICH ANIMALS NOTIFY THE COMMUNITY OF WHICH VISITORS OR DANGERS ETC.? TO ME, ANIMAL SOUNDS QUALIFY AS LANGUAGE. HUMANS SELDOM UNDERSTAND OR RECOGNIZE ANIMAL LANGUAGE, BUT ANIMALS OFTEN COMPREHEND A RANGE OF WORDS.ALTHO ANIMALS TEND TO CONFUSE EASILY WHEN HUMANS EXPRESS WORDS NEUROTICALLY. I THINK IT IS NOT SO MUCH A CLEAR LINE OF -WE SPEAK & ANIMALS DONT- AS A SPECIES GRADIENT; HOW MUCH, WHAT KIND. DON L: (homo-saps) are altered by written laws that most people say are unnatural? rodger: IS THAT LIKE MOST PEOPLE SAYING WE WOULD FALL OFF THE EDGE OF THE FLAT EARTH? AN EARTH WHICH WE ALL KNOW IS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE? Don L: Do you see how human being is different from all other creatures? -- dbl rodger: MOSTLY NO. MOTHERS AND BABIES CALL OUT FOR EACH OTHER WHEN CRISIS -OR FARMING- SEPARATES THEM. THE BASIC BEHAVIORAL, EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE SEEMS TO BE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. EXCEPT FOR HOW HUMANS ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. GENERALLY IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PEOPLE ARE AT A LOSS AS TO WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS ADVANCE, SO THEY DRAW UP CONCLUSSIONS ABOUT IT._R . . Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:39:08 -0400 From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate statements . Don L: Do you not recognize that homo-saps are altered by language, by written laws that most people say are unnatural? Do you not see something unnatural about human being? Do you see how human being is different from all other creatures? -- dbl _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061020/dbd6fadb/attachment.html From ae.dropper at juno.com Sat Oct 21 17:21:46 2006 From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com) Date: Sun Oct 22 18:22:19 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fragmentation Message-ID: <20061021.112147.2116.23.ae.dropper@juno.com> You know, in all the years I've been here I don't remember ever really talking about fragmentation. It's an incredibly useful concept. Applies SO MUCH of the poverty of communication [dialogue, creativity] that occurs SO MUCH of the time in the verbal sphere. What is fragmentation as it applies to the way we listen to each other? When are we hearing from the 'whole' of what someone is saying and when are we hearing from a 'fragment'? And what does the hearing from a fragment "accomplish" in terms of "dead ending" a creative "thread?" Bohm distinguishes between a fragment and a part. A "part" is a "subwhole." Responding to a "part" of what someone says is not "fragmentation" [necessarily]. And responding to a meaning not intended by the speaker is not fragmentation [necessarily] - if the intended meaning is more or less understood. It seems that a "fragmented" response is essentially a response to "one's own" [disinherited] thought in the guise of "another's" thought? And then there is the thought that determines that certain thoughts are "one's own," and certain thoughts are "another's." What is that thought? What is that feeling? [because thoughts aren't given the attribute of 'possession' without an attendant feeling, are they]? pat On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:15:35 -0400 ae.dropper@juno.com writes: HUMANS ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. (R) Making fragmentation possible. pat On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:26:49 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes: Don L: Do you see how human being is different from all other creatures? -- dbl rodger: MOSTLY NO. MOTHERS AND BABIES CALL OUT FOR EACH OTHER WHEN CRISIS -OR FARMING- SEPARATES THEM. THE BASIC BEHAVIORAL, EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE SEEMS TO BE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. EXCEPT FOR HOW HUMANS ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. Don L: Ever see another creature in traffic court; court for nonpayment of child-support; traffric fines? In school studying for finals? In line for flu shots? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 10:00 AM Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate Rodger__ in answer to: Don L: Do you not recognize that homo-saps are altered by language, Rodger: BY ALTERED DO YOU MEAN DIFFERENT? HAVE YOU EVER SPENT MUCH TIME IN THE WILD, LISTENED TO HOW ANIMALS TELL EACH OTHER OF THE COMINGS AND GOINGS OF PREDATORS AND FRIENDLY CRITTERS -- ALL THE DIFFERENT SOUNDS THEY USE -- WHICH ANIMALS NOTIFY THE COMMUNITY OF WHICH VISITORS OR DANGERS ETC.? TO ME, ANIMAL SOUNDS QUALIFY AS LANGUAGE. HUMANS SELDOM UNDERSTAND OR RECOGNIZE ANIMAL LANGUAGE, BUT ANIMALS OFTEN COMPREHEND A RANGE OF WORDS.ALTHO ANIMALS TEND TO CONFUSE EASILY WHEN HUMANS EXPRESS WORDS NEUROTICALLY. I THINK IT IS NOT SO MUCH A CLEAR LINE OF -WE SPEAK & ANIMALS DONT- AS A SPECIES GRADIENT; HOW MUCH, WHAT KIND. DON L: (homo-saps) are altered by written laws that most people say are unnatural? rodger: IS THAT LIKE MOST PEOPLE SAYING WE WOULD FALL OFF THE EDGE OF THE FLAT EARTH? AN EARTH WHICH WE ALL KNOW IS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE? Don L: Do you see how human being is different from all other creatures? -- dbl rodger: MOSTLY NO. MOTHERS AND BABIES CALL OUT FOR EACH OTHER WHEN CRISIS -OR FARMING- SEPARATES THEM. THE BASIC BEHAVIORAL, EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE SEEMS TO BE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. EXCEPT FOR HOW HUMANS ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. GENERALLY IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PEOPLE ARE AT A LOSS AS TO WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS ADVANCE, SO THEY DRAW UP CONCLUSSIONS ABOUT IT._R . . Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:39:08 -0400 From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate statements . Don L: Do you not recognize that homo-saps are altered by language, by written laws that most people say are unnatural? Do you not see something unnatural about human being? Do you see how human being is different from all other creatures? -- dbl _______________________________________________ info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net dialogue facilitator: facilitator@david-bohm.net Administrator of the mailing list: admin@david-bohm.net _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061021/c95c4028/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 21 18:32:22 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Sun Oct 22 19:32:23 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] new email address Message-ID: <C15FC3D6.39C1%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Hi ? What do I have to do to change my email address with this group? Thanks, k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061021/831d4505/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 21 18:48:26 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Sun Oct 22 19:48:28 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <20061021.112147.2116.23.ae.dropper@juno.com> References: <20061021.112147.2116.23.ae.dropper@juno.com> Message-ID: <9F24567B-B253-4148-AF70-9217B9680AB0@donfactor.demon.co.uk> First, on this subject of fragmentation and for the benefit of those who are less familiar with Bohm's work, he made an analogy with a watch - an old fashioned wind up watch. He observed that if you take a watch apart and lay out all of its parts you (or somebody who knows how) can put them back together again, but if you smash the watch with a hammer, you end up with fragments. So fragments are defined in this context as parts that are broken. The invention of "Nation states" was a favourite example of fragmentation. So.... You're right that we just do it and don't think about it, at least not directly. But (my favourite word.) like all such subjects no matter what one says, there are always a myriad of possible ways of understanding it which cannot help but emerge from the listener's own life experience - or social conditioning and that colour the listener's experience. That is, what you have said here slots into a lot of stuff that I have also thought about, so what I hear is not just what you said, but how what you said relates to what I have said or thought on the subject. This is not a misunderstanding but, I think, a necessary part of any act of meaning. It has often been mentioned that any actual communication sits somewhere in the space between the speaker and the listener, or the writer and reader. It does not represent wholly the meaning of either. So It seems you can't have one without the other. It seems to me that in most instances it is not possible to listen to another so objectively that one's own meanings don't get enmeshed with the speaker's words. Both parties are active in any communication even if one remains silent. So the question may be whether the presumed misunderstanding is intentional or something else. Also, and this is what I consider the trickiest part of any such consideration, is how do we accommodate these ambiguities so that they can be understood and dealt with as parts rather than as fragments regardless of what we imagine is the other's intention or of any reflexive feelings? don On 21 Oct 2006, at 16:21, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote: > You know, in all the years I've been here I don't remember ever > really talking about fragmentation. It's an incredibly useful > concept. Applies SO MUCH of the poverty of communication > [dialogue, creativity] that occurs SO MUCH of the time in the > verbal sphere. What is fragmentation as it applies to the way we > listen to each other? When are we hearing from the 'whole' of what > someone is saying and when are we hearing from a 'fragment'? And what > does the hearing from a fragment "accomplish" in terms of "dead > ending" > a creative "thread?" Bohm distinguishes between a fragment and a part. > A "part" is a "subwhole." > > Responding to a "part" of what someone says is not "fragmentation" > [necessarily]. And responding to a meaning not intended by the speaker > is not fragmentation [necessarily] - if the intended meaning is > more or less > understood. > > It seems that a "fragmented" response is essentially a response to > "one's own" [disinherited] thought in the guise of "another's" > thought? And then > there is the thought that determines that certain thoughts are > "one's own," > and certain thoughts are "another's." What is that thought? What > is that feeling? [because thoughts aren't given the attribute of > 'possession' without an attendant feeling, are they]? > > pat > > > > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:15:35 -0400 ae.dropper@juno.com writes: > HUMANS ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. (R) > > Making fragmentation possible. pat > > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:26:49 -0400 "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> writes: > Don L: Do you see how human being is different from all other > creatures? -- dbl > > rodger: MOSTLY NO. MOTHERS AND BABIES CALL OUT FOR EACH OTHER WHEN > CRISIS -OR FARMING- SEPARATES THEM. THE BASIC BEHAVIORAL, EMOTIONAL > EXPERIENCE SEEMS TO BE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. EXCEPT FOR HOW HUMANS > ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. > Don L: Ever see another creature in traffic court; court for > nonpayment of child-support; traffric fines? In school studying > for finals? In line for flu shots? > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 10:00 AM > Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate > > Rodger__ in answer to: > > Don L: Do you not recognize that homo-saps are altered by language, > > Rodger: BY ALTERED DO YOU MEAN DIFFERENT? HAVE YOU EVER SPENT MUCH > TIME IN THE WILD, LISTENED TO HOW ANIMALS TELL EACH OTHER OF THE > COMINGS AND GOINGS OF PREDATORS AND FRIENDLY CRITTERS -- ALL THE > DIFFERENT SOUNDS THEY USE -- WHICH ANIMALS NOTIFY THE COMMUNITY OF > WHICH VISITORS OR DANGERS ETC.? > > TO ME, ANIMAL SOUNDS QUALIFY AS LANGUAGE. HUMANS SELDOM UNDERSTAND > OR RECOGNIZE ANIMAL LANGUAGE, BUT ANIMALS OFTEN COMPREHEND A RANGE > OF WORDS.ALTHO ANIMALS TEND TO CONFUSE EASILY WHEN HUMANS EXPRESS > WORDS NEUROTICALLY. > > I THINK IT IS NOT SO MUCH A CLEAR LINE OF -WE SPEAK & ANIMALS DONT- > AS A SPECIES GRADIENT; HOW MUCH, WHAT KIND. > > DON L: (homo-saps) are altered by written laws that most people say > are unnatural? > > rodger: IS THAT LIKE MOST PEOPLE SAYING WE WOULD FALL OFF THE EDGE > OF THE FLAT EARTH? AN EARTH WHICH WE ALL KNOW IS THE CENTER OF THE > UNIVERSE? > > Don L: Do you see how human being is different from all other > creatures? -- dbl > > rodger: MOSTLY NO. MOTHERS AND BABIES CALL OUT FOR EACH OTHER WHEN > CRISIS -OR FARMING- SEPARATES THEM. THE BASIC BEHAVIORAL, EMOTIONAL > EXPERIENCE SEEMS TO BE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. EXCEPT FOR HOW HUMANS > ADVANCED IN AN AREA OF BRAIN EVOLUTION. > > GENERALLY IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PEOPLE ARE AT A LOSS AS TO WHAT TO > MAKE OF THIS ADVANCE, SO THEY DRAW UP CONCLUSSIONS ABOUT IT._R > . > . > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:39:08 -0400 > From: "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> > Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Ultimate, non ultimate > statements > . > Don L: Do you not recognize that homo-saps are altered by language, > by written laws that most people say are unnatural? Do you not see > something unnatural about human being? Do you see how human being > is different from all other creatures? -- dbl > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061021/58a3849e/attachment.html From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 21 18:51:27 2006 From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor) Date: Sun Oct 22 19:51:19 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] new email address In-Reply-To: <C15FC3D6.39C1%tangykatt@earthlink.net> References: <C15FC3D6.39C1%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <BDB4DC3E-8B76-44A7-8CD1-2AA5EAA6979C@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Probably the easiest way is to go to the info page listed below. Unsubscribe and the resubscribe using your new address. If you have trouble just let me know and give me your knew address. don On 21 Oct 2006, at 17:32, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > Hi ? What do I have to do to change my email address with this > group? Thanks, k > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061021/c0b921c4/attachment.html From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Oct 21 19:07:38 2006 From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi) Date: Sun Oct 22 20:07:31 2006 Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] new email address In-Reply-To: <BDB4DC3E-8B76-44A7-8CD1-2AA5EAA6979C@donfactor.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <C15FCC1A.39C5%tangykatt@earthlink.net> Thanks. I?m still ironing out kinks (Gr-r-r-r-) so it?ll be a couple of days. Best. k On 10/21/06 12:51 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Probably the easiest way is to go to the info page listed below. Unsubscribe > and the resubscribe using your new > address. If you have trouble just let me know and give me your knew address. > > don > > On 21 Oct 2006, at 17:32, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote: > >> Hi ? What do I have to do to change my email address with this group? >> ?Thanks, k >> _______________________________________________ >> info: >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue >> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net >> >> dialogue facilitator: >> facilitator@david-bohm.net >> >> Administrator of the mailing list: >> admin@david-bohm.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > info: > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net > > dialogue facilitator: > facilitator@david-bohm.net > > Administrator of the mailing list: > admin@david-bohm.net > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/private/bohm_dialogue/attachments/20061021/169a40de/attachment.html