From:  p
Subject: 
Date:  Sun, December 23, 2007 19:33
To: 


Subject:   Re: XXL 
From:   kitkat22@rcn.com 
Date:   Sun, December 23, 2007 19:25 
To:   p
 
 


Love the Christmas greeting, pit.  If you really live in Brooklyn, you'll
get one from me snail mail.  If not, I requested it be returned to me.  But
wherever you are, I wish you all the best.  And you know, I don't care what
body you're in.  Bodies have their uses, but they aren't 'i, ii, iii'.  Look
what happens when life goes out of them.

You got all 5 excerpts?

Can you put up scanned things?  If so, let me know if you want anything.

I know you're there, but I wish the 'you' I know the way I know you here
could be there openly.  Also wish you'd get over not wanting to have that
cup of coffee with me.  Oh well, 'if wishes were horses, beggars would
ride'.  Remember the dialogue we had about 'ugly', and you convinced me
there was nothing that couldn't be examined?  Why isn't that so at BDO?  And
then there was the time when you ---well

Forgot to mention.  I asked Lee Nichol who William is.  Lee had never heard
of him.  He knows Pat and Tom, and DF, but not William.  So who IS William,
really?

And what do you mean 'can't live dialogue'?  Seems to me that one begins to
think in a dialogue way, and then to communicate with others that way, and
that creates new wirings, and actions come out of that.  Only I see little
or no real dialogue at BDO.

Sleepy.  G'nite.


On 12/23/07 5:02 PM, ß wrote:

> 
> 
> Ps:
> 5th excerpt = up on the wwwhirld n runnin (kee'p'iT comin)
> http://thinkg.net/david_bohm/self_society_proprioception.html
> 
> Pss:
> interesting you cannot live dialogue, even while you are so all'most dying
> (to do'be "it")
> 
> Psssssss:
> the i (ii too) will be 'back', well, ok (as ~y~o~u~ k'now _
> bood>booder>boodest): nevr gon nowhr
> 
> 
>               ß
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, peter, it is ("getting") lovlie*, 's it not ;-)
> 
> why talk with folks if you can talk about them so much
> 
> and that, "better"
> 
> haha ... just in time fuers fest der *liebe
> 
> servus, pit
> 
> 
>      * * *
> 
> 
> This little thread is becoming quite interesting.
> 
> Reminds me of times and circumstances when all one needed to do was to
> point a finger at someone and "the system" would make them disappear.
> 
> We're so good at disappearing or disparaging people, but the moment
> someone asks "what standards? what principles?", they themselves
> become suspect.  (Pretty soon we'll all be wondering whether we
> ourselves are even whom we really are.  Perhaps we are just acting and
> pretending to our assumed selves?)
> 
> Did anyone notice how Suzy-Q was gone for 6 long months?!
> And then she returns, and within two weeks, Alan E. DeBakey appears.
> Coincidence?   Aha!   :-) :-)
> 
> Funny how on this list, which values honesty and trust, some of us
> can't afford to be honest without pretend-ID's.
> And others can't feel secure without outings.  Trust and discretion
> are deprecated by cyberstalking. ;-)
> 
> 
> I wonder how many find the following to be boring, and how many a
> treasure?:
> 
> http://www.divineparadox.com/Essays/discussion_group_harmony.htm
> 
> ~funny~ >peter renzland
> 

 
 
 
 



-----------------------------------------

Subject: Re: humanature
From:    kitkat22@rcn.com
Date:    Sun, December 23, 2007 11:46
To:      ß 


Are you by any chance "Susan"?  I recognize a certain quality there.
  Not
to mention that she sent me an email at about the same time you were telling BD that
Irene was Kay (several months ago), on the same
 subject. 
It would be SO like you to assume 'leadership' as she seems to be
 doing,
and laugh privately about how you were able to fool them.  Then call it 'humanature'.


On 12/23/07 9:59 AM, ß wrote:

>> Ever hear "the more I see of people, the better I like my dog"? 
Animals have 'natures' that people would do well to emulate.  Since human brains are
>> more complex than theirs, can we infer that 'thought' is the
 culprit? 
Ha! There's another interpretation to the Garden of Eden story.
> phonirens,
> go'n'kis
> BuD



--------------------------------------------------




Subject: Re: humanature
From:    kitkat22@rcn.com
Date:    Sun, December 23, 2007 13:43
To:      ß 


Can't you somehow ask some of those questions without disclosing who
 you
are?  It's really lonely being the only one who's asking anything.  And
 I
didn't think of the one below.  You've said 'delete' to them a million times, and
it's made no dent.

If you are Susan, you're provoking the hell out of me, and I'm biting
 back
comments that might give it all away, on the assumption that you are.
  I'm
trying to sit back and watch 'human nature', rather than try to
 'rescue'
the group, or fight my grandfather all over again.  Hard, hard, hard!  It's all a
big lump in my chest between my breasts.

Please help me understand why you periodically come out in a persona
 that
blows everything to hell.  I really want to be your friend, not tumble your psychic
structure.  And I'd like you to be there with me.

Albert was my grandfather's name, and Alfred was his brother!

My eyes hurt.  Got to rest them.


On 12/23/07 1:26 PM, ß wrote:

> Subvert, according to Webster:
>     1. To overthrow or destroy
>     2. To corrupt; to undermine
> When a student disrupts a class, doesn¹t the teacher/facilitator
 have a
responsibility to the others to act to prevent the behavior that is undermining the
learning environment?  One might argue that we could learn from our
annoyance/emotions triggered by the behavior, but that seems a lesson that doesn¹t
need to be labored.  And I found myself
 not
so much annoyed as bored.
> And, again, nobody.... not a single one, not 1
> asked the tough questions, the total no-brainers,
> at this BD zoo
> like:
> how can a peter, via emails, destroy dialogue
> who is forced to read his/her stuff??
> and, again, nobody goes deep, deeper, deep enoug
> to look at all those under-lying issues
> nothinkgs but hot air.... what a bunch of airheads
> laugh
>               ß




Download this as a file


From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Dec 23 00:47:25 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Sun Dec 23 00:54:37 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <2BD0F4FE-1683-4F42-8AB5-94BB13D1A372@dc.rr.com>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><035301c840fb$4d1463d0$b5c16018@DL01>
	<c47283890712171432w7e5a633ej7673469675579782@mail.gmail.com>
	<03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
	<BAY123-W173CB36371D1797F0A9CCDDC5C0@phx.gbl>
	<3E9D0B23-6B50-42F9-9418-DE9F46921C62@dc.rr.com>
	<BAY123-W2556969448CC65FE5B90A3DC5E0@phx.gbl> 
	<2BD0F4FE-1683-4F42-8AB5-94BB13D1A372@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W221C9729CEF4D617E90E59DC5F0@phx.gbl>


Don. I didn't say there was no art, I just said there was no good or bad. I agree with what you've said.


From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:57:12 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org

On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:19 AM, rob mooney wrote:
there is no good or bad art. Just stuff you like and stuff you don't.
No, there is art, and you do know it when you see it, or hear it. Even if you hate it.

Art is not about liking or disliking it is about acting, and that don't mean play acting,
which is what a lot of current so-called art actually is.

don




From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.comSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:54:23 -0800To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgAs I said, Art Acts. And there are all kinds of art. But there is no such animal as good art or bad art. There is only art and non-art. 

don



On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:01 PM, rob mooney wrote:
"poems are epiphanic documents and show the writer in the process of making their discoveries, so that the reader can re-enact and re-live them, not merely feel their after effects or learn the poet's wise conclusions." (Don patterson) I expect this goes for C++, painting, music, dancing, sculpture, photography, millenery, etc. Maybe even when Don F chooses a tee shirt...


From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:22:32 -0500
ISmeaningfulTM to say the answer to these questions is yes, and to say that Bohm, talking about infinite subtlety and when he says it is as far "in there" inside the atom as it is "out there" through the universe substantiates the view I'm trying to learn how to explicate.
 
Where or what is the personal identity while being sensitive enough to "hear" the direction that amounts to improv?  
 
Once again, my programming friend says there is no identity movement while writing code.  If there was, he would be unable to write code because C++, he says, is not the language appropriate for the personal identity.  That is, personal identity simply has no meaning in the Visual Basic or C++ language.  
 
Are you aware of Irene's personal identity movement while doing improv?  -- dl
 
 
\

From: Irene Darcy 
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I:  We're getting into the idea of Nada Brahma, now.  And to say more, I'd have to  go get my book.It would have been more accurate to say one creates a time-space line when one moves, I think. Why do all the good things happen at once?  I'm working on Bach Goldberg.  My Eurhythmics teacher is giving a three day workshop soon on what an improviser can learn from them, and I'm preparing for it.  I would love to have heard Bach sit down and jam with Paquito d'Rivera; throw in Sidney Bechet for good measure on clarinet, and Eugene Ysaye on violin. 
On Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:



I:  Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.
 
What about the idea that every time you move, you are using time and space?  
 
Is there time and space absent homo-sappo, prior to homo-sappo?  Perhaps more precisely, is there some actuality indicated by time and space that is prior to homo-sappo?  -- dl

 
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Irene Darcy 
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 



Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
I:  Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.  And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:

To be or not to be?   Is there a choice?  Is the question the problem?  What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is implicate is explicate?) 
On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:

the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- RobMaybe.  I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think of the identity of things including us.I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, with the language or knowing system of imagination.It's a bit spooky to think that us is not.  That is, the notness or non being must be addressed.  The anxiety does not go away simply by acting and pretending it is not there. Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being.   dl http://www.knology.net/~donlay/

----- Original Message ----- From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PMSubject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? the old old thought occurs -- no us?


From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate OrderDate: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breathThe thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space?  Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl -- Irene 


info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogueinfo: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue-- Irene 

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From donlay at knology.net  Sun Dec 23 01:07:03 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:14:12 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] message from admin
References: <942989.91927.qm@web57415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<476D8925.000005.04180@VAIO-584793128F>
Message-ID: <010d01c844f7$bf521e60$b5c16018@DL01>

Please note that Peter's emails are no longer being distributed by the bohm_dialogue list server.  He has been unsubscribed as a.debakey@yahoo.com but is now sending his spam directly from his own server as humanimal@thinkg.net. I suggest you update your spam filter. -- admin

Under the circumstances, I believe it is not inappropriate to pass on the following which I thought was sent to the Bohm list but was actually directed to one of Peter's addresses:

[was something about Failure]

If dialogue, from the Greek dia logos indicates reason, is it reasonable to expect a dialogue to be the use of reason and to eliminate the ignoring of or distortion of reason and meaning?

It seems entirely reasonable, rational, and perhaps more to the point -- meaningful -- to not allow the lack of, or distortion of reason and meaning, to occur in place of dialogue.

Some questions occur: 

May meaningful communication occur without reason, ratio, meaning?
Does communication occur absent reason, ratio, and meaning?

When reason, ration, meaning is distorted or absent, is communication possible?  Is meaningful communication possible?

My view is that the moderator's present actions are reasonable, rational and meaningful and are therefore, dialogical.  -dl

 


  bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org wrote: 
    You are now unsubscribed from Bohm_Dialogue


   




  The 'good'/'bad' news first: Pit is out (gone, booted, unsubbed, 'taken-care-of', dedialoged...).

  The 'better'/'worse' knews next: s'he is NOT. S'he is still verii much here, among yoUs.

  Once again, D-Factor could not "take it", could not "handle it"... ~ so he "pulled the plug" (oncommunication, and thus, at --the core of-- dialogue).

  Once again, B-Dialogue could not "take it", could not "handle it"... ~ so you "pulled the plug" (on communication, and thus, at --the core of-- dialogue).

  Once again, B-Dialogue=you have failed, re failing.

  Once again, the "problem/s" did not and do not and will not "go away" because of this move(away).

  Once again you will talk another trillion years  'penetratingly' about (B)Dialogue, its beauty (beast): w/o, once again, for once, just once, being able to let it happen: (B)Dialogue, to let it takgive place, time (tice)... dobeing touched (penetration, see above) by it. Once again you findy that groupi strength ("coherence", cohesion) in what Don Lay likes to title: "Acting & Pretending". Once again, you wo'managed to gather around the camp&fire&place of vanities, and superficialities, and phonitities, softplaying, neckmassagings, makeupping..... And if it was not so pathetictictic, I would congratulate you.

  Once again, the 'problem' pit will not go away by moving, pushing, pullpushitting him/her/it offlist, & under the 'rug' (of "self&awareness"). 

  Once again, the "peters" of this world ARE a part of tas, ARE, thusly, a part of YOU. ARE systemic, systematictictic.... And, like Bohm's story about the woman who keeps beating herself (while) under the i'm-pressure to be under attack: the attacked=the attacker= the attack. So, by 'any means': go 'ahead', and keep beating yourselves, bones, while you drool over that the-observer=the-observed=.... stuff(ing). bood luckg.

  ii is still hear, and watching, and in 'awe'.... see you in a bit/pit.

  Tschuess  )(



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From: dialogue-admin 
  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 5:01 PM
  Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] message from admin


        Please note that Peter's emails are no longer being distributed by the bohm_dialogue list server.  He has been unsubscribed as a.debakey@yahoo.com but is now sending his spam directly from his own server as humanimal@thinkg.net. I suggest you update your spam filter.

        admin




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        Ooooooooooh,
        noooooooooo
        problema, senor

        will just use one of the other few hand-full-full-fulls  ;---))

        ciao

        cheers

        .... later ... (wellaugh: soooon)

        humanimal



        > Your request to the Bohm_Dialogue mailing list
        >
        >     Subscription request
        >
        > has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
        > following reason for rejecting your request:
        >
        > "[No reason given]"
        >
        > Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator
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        >     bohm_dialogue-owner@david-bohm.org
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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Dec 23 01:08:28 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:15:40 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
In-Reply-To: <006d01c844d5$3b27dc50$c577480c@HOME>
References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<006d01c844d5$3b27dc50$c577480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W10D789DB5423A35961CE9BDC580@phx.gbl>


no I can't think of anything to say either. except the condensed and selected version seems very powerful. universal.


From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and alonenessDate: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:59:57 -0700



This is such an incredibly beautiful post Kari that I feel almost overwhelmed by it.  It reads more like poetry than anything I have read in a long time.  
 
playing with  thoughts of woundedness and aloneness by Kari
 
emotionally raw
deep, deep, tension 
large, and warm
I did not plan it
so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, 
maybe not
a sense of separation, of woundedness
doubting if I really know anything, 
am I am just a joke of a person?
yet I know my capacity to experience  is beyond what I seem to know
can I trust my nature to take care of me?
so far I'm still here...or something is
so this is just where I am at
 
Can't think of anything that says is better than that.
 
Susan
 
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Karilen Mays 
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


Hello, group exploring online,
 
There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.)
 
The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. 
 
Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. 
 
But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is.
 
The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at.
 
On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we?
 
Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all...
 
Love,
Kari
 
 
 

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From donlay at knology.net  Sun Dec 23 01:13:00 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:20:07 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><035301c840fb$4d1463d0$b5c16018@DL01><c47283890712171432w7e5a633ej7673469675579782@mail.gmail.com><03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W173CB36371D1797F0A9CCDDC5C0@phx.gbl><3E9D0B23-6B50-42F9-9418-DE9F46921C62@dc.rr.com><BAY123-W2556969448CC65FE5B90A3DC5E0@phx.gbl>
	<2BD0F4FE-1683-4F42-8AB5-94BB13D1A372@dc.rr.com>
	<BAY123-W221C9729CEF4D617E90E59DC5F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <011e01c844f8$9408ec10$b5c16018@DL01>

I appreciate the idea of art and no art rather than "good or bad" art.

I'm intrigued though with Aesthetics and thus about the Don's notion of art that "Art is not about liking or disliking it is about acting, and that don't mean play acting, which is what a lot of current so-called art actually is.".

Don would you please elaborate. -- dl

ps:  My bias is toward Susan Langer.



From: rob mooney 
  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 6:47 PM
  Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order


  Don. I didn't say there was no art, I just said there was no good or bad. I agree with what you've said.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
    Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
    Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:57:12 -0800
    To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org



    On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:19 AM, rob mooney wrote:


      there is no good or bad art. Just stuff you like and stuff you don't.


    No, there is art, and you do know it when you see it, or hear it. Even if you hate it.


    Art is not about liking or disliking it is about acting, and that don't mean play acting,
    which is what a lot of current so-called art actually is.


    don






------------------------------------------------------------------------
        From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
        Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
        Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:54:23 -0800
        To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org

        As I said, Art Acts. And there are all kinds of art. But there is no such animal as good art or bad art. There is only art and non-art. 


        don


        On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:01 PM, rob mooney wrote:


          "poems are epiphanic documents and show the writer in the process of making their discoveries, so that the reader can re-enact and re-live them, not merely feel their after effects or learn the poet's wise conclusions."
           
          (Don patterson)
           
          I expect this goes for C++, painting, music, dancing, sculpture, photography, millenery, etc. Maybe even when Don F chooses a tee shirt...




--------------------------------------------------------------------
            From: donlay@knology.net
            To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
            Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
            Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:22:32 -0500


            ISmeaningfulTM to say the answer to these questions is yes, and to say that Bohm, talking about infinite subtlety and when he says it is as far "in there" inside the atom as it is "out there" through the universe substantiates the view I'm trying to learn how to explicate.

            Where or what is the personal identity while being sensitive enough to "hear" the direction that amounts to improv?  

            Once again, my programming friend says there is no identity movement while writing code.  If there was, he would be unable to write code because C++, he says, is not the language appropriate for the personal identity.  That is, personal identity simply has no meaning in the Visual Basic or C++ language.  

            Are you aware of Irene's personal identity movement while doing improv?  -- dl


            \
              From: Irene Darcy 
              To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
              Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 PM
              Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order


              I:  We're getting into the idea of Nada Brahma, now.  And to say more, I'd have to  go get my book.

              It would have been more accurate to say one creates a time-space line when one moves, I think. 

              Why do all the good things happen at once?  I'm working on Bach Goldberg.  My Eurhythmics teacher is giving a three day workshop soon on what an improviser can learn from them, and I'm preparing for it.  I would love to have heard Bach sit down and jam with Paquito d'Rivera; throw in Sidney Bechet for good measure on clarinet, and Eugene Ysaye on violin. 


              On Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:

                I:  Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.

                What about the idea that every time you move, you are using time and space?  

                Is there time and space absent homo-sappo, prior to homo-sappo?  Perhaps more precisely, is there some actuality indicated by time and space that is prior to homo-sappo?  -- dl

                http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                  From: Irene Darcy 
                  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
                  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order


                  I:  Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.  And imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.


                  On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk < lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:

                    To be or not to be?   Is there a choice?  Is the question the problem?  What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form; explicate is implicate is explicate?) 



                    On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:


                      the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- Rob

                      Maybe.  I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think of the identity of things including us.

                      I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known, with the language or knowing system of imagination.

                      It's a bit spooky to think that us is not.  That is, the notness or non being must be addressed.  The anxiety does not go away simply by acting and pretending it is not there. 

                      Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being.   dl
                       

                      http://www.knology.net/~donlay/

                        ----- Original Message ----- 
                        From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>  
                        To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
                        Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PM
                        Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order

                        The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space? 

                        the old old thought occurs -- no us?





------------------------------------------------------
                          From: donlay@knology.net
                          To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
                          Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
                          Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500

                          if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our... um... breath

                          The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could there be no space?  Maybe we could say that it is only a useful concept and use while being aware that it is limited.

                          Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl

                           








                  -- 
                  Irene 


--------------------------------------------------------------



                  info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue



                info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue





              -- 
              Irene 
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From donlay at knology.net  Sun Dec 23 01:15:39 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:22:46 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com><006d01c844d5$3b27dc50$c577480c@HOME>
	<BAY123-W10D789DB5423A35961CE9BDC580@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <013701c844f8$f2fe0110$b5c16018@DL01>

Yes, I also like the idea that what she said suggested the universal.

Do we say there's something "universal" about poetry? -- dl




  From: rob mooney 
  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:08 PM
  Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


  no I can't think of anything to say either. except the condensed and selected version seems very powerful. universal.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
    To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
    Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
    Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:59:57 -0700


    This is such an incredibly beautiful post Kari that I feel almost overwhelmed by it.  It reads more like poetry than anything I have read in a long time.  

    playing with  thoughts of woundedness and aloneness by Kari

    emotionally raw
    deep, deep, tension 
    large, and warm
    I did not plan it
    so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, 
    maybe not
    a sense of separation, of woundedness
    doubting if I really know anything, 
    am I am just a joke of a person?
    yet I know my capacity to experience  is beyond what I seem to know
    can I trust my nature to take care of me?
    so far I'm still here...or something is
    so this is just where I am at

    Can't think of anything that says is better than that.

    Susan


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Karilen Mays 
      To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
      Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:08 PM
      Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


      Hello, group exploring online,

      There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.)

      The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. 

      Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. 

      But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is.

      The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at.

      On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we?

      Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all...

      Love,
      Kari





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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Dec 23 01:18:16 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:25:28 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line
In-Reply-To: <00b401c844e5$b1f08a70$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com><009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01><91719B39-BA7F-4DCD-B6BF-2834C45357CA@dc.rr.com>
	<c47283890712221346hdd22838ib9e87b4cf9d5debd@mail.gmail.com> 
	<00b401c844e5$b1f08a70$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W9AC535F0398CBB5AFC3CCDC580@phx.gbl>


One Don was fond of his reasonThe other thought acting was treason
And old HeraclitusCaught encephalitis
Which buggered his holiday season
 
 


From: donlay@knology.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a lineDate: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:57:49 -0500




Meaning is reason
Reason is meaning
 
This is the season
For reasonable leaning
 
Toward the idea
Of reason and meaning
 
 
 
From: Irene Darcy 

To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line
I:  Who can?    We can - just so    The !@#$    Doesn't hit the fan!
On Dec 22, 2007 4:39 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:

Reason and meaning. 
Two little words.
What do they mean?
What is their reason?
Do they count when
Disaster is all around?
And who does 
the counting?
Who can?

don


On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:16 PM, Don Lay wrote:


disaster all around
and so i try
to participate
in bohm dialogue
as we sleep 
 
clearly reason and meaning
make the self a self
and reason and meaning
are not jokes
 
 
From: Karilen Mays 

To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line





disaster all around
and so i try
to participate
in bohm dialogue
as we sleep 
 
From: Karilen Mays 

To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM 
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line 

 

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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net  Sun Dec 23 01:19:10 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:26:27 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com><006d01c844d5$3b27dc50$c577480c@HOME><BAY123-W10D789DB5423A35961CE9BDC580@phx.gbl>
	<013701c844f8$f2fe0110$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <00e301c844f9$718339b0$c577480c@HOME>

Or simply that there's something universally poetic about stories?

Susan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Don Lay 
  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 5:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


  Yes, I also like the idea that what she said suggested the universal.

  Do we say there's something "universal" about poetry? -- dl




    From: rob mooney 
    To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
    Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:08 PM
    Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


    no I can't think of anything to say either. except the condensed and selected version seems very powerful. universal.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
      To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
      Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
      Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:59:57 -0700


      This is such an incredibly beautiful post Kari that I feel almost overwhelmed by it.  It reads more like poetry than anything I have read in a long time.  

      playing with  thoughts of woundedness and aloneness by Kari

      emotionally raw
      deep, deep, tension 
      large, and warm
      I did not plan it
      so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, 
      maybe not
      a sense of separation, of woundedness
      doubting if I really know anything, 
      am I am just a joke of a person?
      yet I know my capacity to experience  is beyond what I seem to know
      can I trust my nature to take care of me?
      so far I'm still here...or something is
      so this is just where I am at

      Can't think of anything that says is better than that.

      Susan


        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Karilen Mays 
        To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
        Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:08 PM
        Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


        Hello, group exploring online,

        There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.)

        The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. 

        Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. 

        But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is.

        The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at.

        On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we?

        Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all...

        Love,
        Kari





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From rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk  Sun Dec 23 01:21:48 2007
From: rob.mooney at hotmail.co.uk (rob mooney)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:29:00 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
In-Reply-To: <00e301c844f9$718339b0$c577480c@HOME>
References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com><006d01c844d5$3b27dc50$c577480c@HOME><BAY123-W10D789DB5423A35961CE9BDC580@phx.gbl>
	<013701c844f8$f2fe0110$b5c16018@DL01>
	<00e301c844f9$718339b0$c577480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W1989312943112CE569F2F0DC580@phx.gbl>


hmm. yes.


From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and alonenessDate: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:19:10 -0700



Or simply that there's something universally poetic about stories?
 
Susan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Don Lay 
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness

Yes, I also like the idea that what she said suggested the universal.
 
Do we say there's something "universal" about poetry? -- dl
 
 
 
 

From: rob mooney 
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
no I can't think of anything to say either. except the condensed and selected version seems very powerful. universal.


From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.netTo: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.orgSubject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and alonenessDate: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:59:57 -0700


This is such an incredibly beautiful post Kari that I feel almost overwhelmed by it.  It reads more like poetry than anything I have read in a long time.  
 
playing with  thoughts of woundedness and aloneness by Kari
 
emotionally raw
deep, deep, tension 
large, and warm
I did not plan it
so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, 
maybe not
a sense of separation, of woundedness
doubting if I really know anything, 
am I am just a joke of a person?
yet I know my capacity to experience  is beyond what I seem to know
can I trust my nature to take care of me?
so far I'm still here...or something is
so this is just where I am at
 
Can't think of anything that says is better than that.
 
Susan
 
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Karilen Mays 
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


Hello, group exploring online,
 
There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.)
 
The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. 
 
Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. 
 
But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is.
 
The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at.
 
On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we?
 
Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all...
 
Love,
Kari
 
 
 

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info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue

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From donlay at knology.net  Sun Dec 23 01:29:03 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:36:10 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <016901c844fa$d2535ad0$b5c16018@DL01>

There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. -- Kari

Me too!  It can also be called selfish, self-centered, self-pity!   I try to be on guard for it so that when it occurs, I simply watch it as per K, give it attention as db/thought.  

It seems that attention dissolves the reflexive and mechanical selfish, self-centered thoughts that are not useful.  Attention also provides solutions and answers to selfish, self-centered thoughts that are part of meaningful, reasonable awareness.  

Anyone else ever felt wounded by separation or separation-thought?  -- dl



  From: Karilen Mays 
  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:08 PM
  Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


  Hello, group exploring online,

  There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.)

  The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. 

  Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. 

  But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is.

  The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at.

  On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we?

  Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all...

  Love,
  Kari





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 23 01:35:27 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:42:40 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W9AC535F0398CBB5AFC3CCDC580@phx.gbl>
References: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01>
	<91719B39-BA7F-4DCD-B6BF-2834C45357CA@dc.rr.com>
	<c47283890712221346hdd22838ib9e87b4cf9d5debd@mail.gmail.com>
	<00b401c844e5$b1f08a70$b5c16018@DL01>
	<BAY123-W9AC535F0398CBB5AFC3CCDC580@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c47283890712221635q6a5da448q9307f452f165f1c8@mail.gmail.com>

K:  Kari's was beautiful; this one's hilarious.  Enjoyable, all.

On Dec 22, 2007 7:18 PM, rob mooney <rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>  One Don was fond of his reason
> The other thought acting was treason
> And old Heraclitus
> Caught encephalitis
> Which buggered his holiday season
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:57:49 -0500
>
>
>
>  Meaning is reason
> Reason is meaning
>
> This is the season
> For reasonable leaning
>
> Toward the idea
> Of reason and meaning
>
>
> **
> *From:* Irene Darcy <irenedarcy@gmail.com>
>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:46 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line
>
> I:  Who can?
>     We can - just so
>     The !@#$ <%21@#$>
>     Doesn't hit the fan!
>
> On Dec 22, 2007 4:39 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Reason and meaning. Two little words.
> What do they mean?
> What is their reason?
> Do they count when
> Disaster is all around?
> And who does
> the counting?
> Who can?
>
> don
>
>  On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:16 PM, Don Lay wrote:
>
>  disaster all around
> and so i try
> to participate
> in bohm dialogue
> as we sleep
>
> clearly reason and meaning
> make the self a self
> and reason and meaning
> are not jokes
>
>
> *From:* Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com>
>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line
>
>
>  disaster all around
> and so i try
> to participate
> in bohm dialogue
> as we sleep
>
> *From:* Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com>
>
> *To:* bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM
> *Subject:* [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
>
>
> --
> Irene
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Think you know your TV, music and film? Try Search Charades!<https://www.searchcharades.com>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>


-- 
Irene
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From donlay at knology.net  Sun Dec 23 01:36:19 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:43:26 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
References: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com><006d01c844d5$3b27dc50$c577480c@HOME><BAY123-W10D789DB5423A35961CE9BDC580@phx.gbl><013701c844f8$f2fe0110$b5c16018@DL01><00e301c844f9$718339b0$c577480c@HOME>
	<BAY123-W1989312943112CE569F2F0DC580@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01dd01c844fb$d5e27f90$b5c16018@DL01>

Or simply that there's something universally poetic about stories?  -- Susan

Maybe in the end, language tells a story in the sense that it is descriptive.

Is language necessarily descriptive?  

Is there a language that does not describe, and in that sense does not tell a storey? -- dl


From: rob mooney 
  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:21 PM
  Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


  hmm. yes.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
    To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
    Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
    Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:19:10 -0700


    Or simply that there's something universally poetic about stories?

    Susan
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Don Lay 
      To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
      Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 5:15 PM
      Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


      Yes, I also like the idea that what she said suggested the universal.

      Do we say there's something "universal" about poetry? -- dl




        From: rob mooney 
        To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
        Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:08 PM
        Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


        no I can't think of anything to say either. except the condensed and selected version seems very powerful. universal.



----------------------------------------------------------------------
          From: Susan.Joy@worldnet.att.net
          To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
          Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
          Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:59:57 -0700


          This is such an incredibly beautiful post Kari that I feel almost overwhelmed by it.  It reads more like poetry than anything I have read in a long time.  

          playing with  thoughts of woundedness and aloneness by Kari

          emotionally raw
          deep, deep, tension 
          large, and warm
          I did not plan it
          so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, 
          maybe not
          a sense of separation, of woundedness
          doubting if I really know anything, 
          am I am just a joke of a person?
          yet I know my capacity to experience  is beyond what I seem to know
          can I trust my nature to take care of me?
          so far I'm still here...or something is
          so this is just where I am at

          Can't think of anything that says is better than that.

          Susan


            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Karilen Mays 
            To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
            Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 12:08 PM
            Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness


            Hello, group exploring online,

            There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.)

            The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up for investigation. 

            Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger, Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions, physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone. 

            But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach, and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms" I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or something is.

            The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at.

            On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying. What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year? Who are we?

            Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so I will close this. Thank you all...

            Love,
            Kari





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From donlay at knology.net  Sun Dec 23 01:51:11 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Dec 23 01:58:19 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line
References: <495921.12052.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com><009601c844d7$7c76b170$b5c16018@DL01><91719B39-BA7F-4DCD-B6BF-2834C45357CA@dc.rr.com><c47283890712221346hdd22838ib9e87b4cf9d5debd@mail.gmail.com><00b401c844e5$b1f08a70$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W9AC535F0398CBB5AFC3CCDC580@phx.gbl>
	<c47283890712221635q6a5da448q9307f452f165f1c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <023201c844fd$e9f7e090$b5c16018@DL01>

Yes, I agree.

Locally, a friend said I have Heraclitus-itus.



  From: Irene Darcy 
  To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
  Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:35 PM
  Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line


  K:  Kari's was beautiful; this one's hilarious.  Enjoyable, all.


  On Dec 22, 2007 7:18 PM, rob mooney < rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

    One Don was fond of his reason
    The other thought acting was treason
    And old Heraclitus
    Caught encephalitis
    Which buggered his holiday season
     
     

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: donlay@knology.net

    To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org

    Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line

    Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:57:49 -0500




      Meaning is reason
      Reason is meaning

      This is the season
      For reasonable leaning

      Toward the idea
      Of reason and meaning



      From: Irene Darcy 
        To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
        Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:46 PM
        Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line


        I:  Who can?
            We can - just so
            The !@#$
            Doesn't hit the fan!


        On Dec 22, 2007 4:39 PM, donald factor < DFACTOR@dc.rr.com> wrote:

          Reason and meaning. 
          Two little words.
          What do they mean?
          What is their reason?
          Do they count when
          Disaster is all around?
          And who does 
          the counting?
          Who can?


          don


          On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:16 PM, Don Lay wrote:


            disaster all around
            and so i try
            to participate
            in bohm dialogue
            as we sleep 

            clearly reason and meaning
            make the self a self
            and reason and meaning
            are not jokes


            From: Karilen Mays 
              To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
              Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:50 PM
              Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line




              disaster all around
              and so i try
              to participate
              in bohm dialogue
              as we sleep 

              From: Karilen Mays 
                To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org 
                Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:21 PM 
                Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] group poem-add a line 





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        -- 
        Irene 
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com  Sun Dec 23 03:10:44 2007
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Sun Dec 23 03:17:58 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] spam and aloneness
In-Reply-To: <540781.95082.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C39311B4.FD37%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>

There are enough powerful questions here to fuel dialogue for all 2008 and
beyond!  Thanks for all of them.   I have been in the place you describe
many times.  Been in and out a lot this past year,  having been confronted
with loss and mortality.  That sense of isolation and aloneness can be
devastating.  But I?ve noticed that just as relationships can be used as a
denial of aloneness, so can that experience of aloneness be used as a denial
of connectedness.  It?s never an either-or.  I am separate.  And I am
connected to everyone, even those I fear.  Perhaps the challenge for the
future is to learn how to honor the individual and at the same time learn
how to extend a real experience of connection beyond the old
family/tribe/nation to global and beyond to embrace all beings.

Lynne
On 12/22/07 12:08 PM, "Karilen Mays" <tubakari@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello, group exploring online,
>  
> There are couple things I would like to talk about. It is of course great that
> new people are joining in. However, I have so many messages, especially from
> Alan, that they are going in my spam folder and I just cant keep up. I may go
> on vacation mode again. I think it is awesome that Susan and Franis are here
> because you all just seem authentic and inspiring -- the types of people who
> are "good" at dialogue. It is difficult for me to find the "real" messages
> when so much of what is sent just reads like spam to me. So this list is
> actually spam right now in a sense is the first thing. What value do those
> messages add? (Not that mine adds more; you can judge that.)
>  
> The second thing I want to talk about it just some "food for thought" about my
> own experience lately. I know it is a limited snapshot, but speaking from our
> own experiences and feelings is a great way to have real dialogue, especially
> when it (our interpretations of the experiences and future experiences) is up
> for investigation.
>  
> Lately, I have been emotionally raw. The last few months, and even the last
> year have been fairly intense. Have attributed it to exhaustion some of the
> time, but I wonder what else is happening here. Many of us know something
> about human and adult development, ranging from Piaget, Maslow, Loevinger,
> Cook-Greuter, Kegan, Torbert, Beck and Cowan, etc. (If any of those names are
> not familiar, we can talk further.) There have been some intense contractions,
> physically and emotionally lately. So, given that development is not a
> straight line, or even stair steps, but let's say a dialectical spiral of
> patterns that is evolving, so nothing is a given...:) my "self assessment" is
> that I may be engaging more of my capacity than ever before and I dont know if
> that means I am "going to the next level of development" or hitting a
> pathological place, or a good place. Luckily I feel like I can be supported in
> this at work and through a few of my friends, whatever it is, though one
> aspect I will say a bit more about is being alone.
>  
> But first, some other aspects: I feel this deep, deep, tension in my stomach,
> and my heart area feels very raw, large, and warm. I realize in a sense I am
> story telling through this whole email. I did not plan to write it until a few
> moments ago, so maybe something interesting or provoking will be here, maybe
> not. (Yes, I have a bias for unplanned activities...) Back to the "symptoms"
> I've been noticing. There is a sense of separation, of woundedness, that I
> tend to wallow in. A small comment from someone can send me to a place of
> doubting if I really know anything, and if I am just a joke of a person. Yet I
> know that "my" capacity to experience and make sense of reality, in happy
> ecstatic places as well as dark lonely places in the psyche, is beyond what I
> seem to know. I can sort of trust my adaptogenic nature as a human and
> consciousness to take care of me. I dont know if it makes the disgust with
> myself and the world any easier to hold, but so far Im still here...or
> something is.
>  
> The realization of life lately, or maybe even oneness, for me has included a
> flavor of aloneness that I have always known, but when I was younger, I wanted
> it to go away and called it depression at times. As we are unique beings, no
> person can ever truly understand another. For what is there to understand, and
> who is doing it? The realization, I am alone...has really schocked me. I am
> inquiring into it and do not wish to hold on to it longer than it serves, but
> in a way it can be freeing. To truly realize this liberates me from the need
> for others to "get me." Then I am more available to be with them in a
> non-wanting way, except to allow them to be who they are by listening and
> seeing them. The fact is some people get me more than others. It is fine if
> some of us just dont get each other. That is why there are millions of
> people...so we can be seen, met, and supported by someone -- not everyone at
> everytime. So to play with this thought-feeling of woundedness and aloneness
> which is at times isolating, can provide a lot of opening. We can inquire all
> the way to the level of seeing that there is no one to be understood, and that
> we are all understanding each other together...so this is just where I am at.
>  
> On this beginning of winter, when the days begin to lengthen and the nights
> grow shorter, I am contemplative as I head to 15 hours of nighttime partying.
> What is there for me/us (yes, us) to do in the world this year? What beliefs
> and parts of self/psyche will I discover and welcome, or let go of? Who is
> letting go of them? How can I, sort of get out of the way, of my own
> development while taking an empowering stand for my values, knowing that they
> are going to change and they are not the final story? Or is this what we
> effortlessly do because it is our destiny if anything is? How can I have an
> impact in the next year? How am I fulfilling my unlimited capacity? What do
> I/we want to create in this next day, next year? Anyone have any answers or
> other useful guiding questions for us? What do we want to explore this year?
> Who are we?
>  
> Maybe what I have said will provoke more inquiry. If there is a goal, then
> that is it. And of course, I expect to be seen and understood by some of you
> because we are all here together, and I have certain general ideas about the
> capacities of this group...other than that I am sick of hearing myself talk so
> I will close this. Thank you all...
>  
> Love,
> Kari
>  

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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com  Sun Dec 23 03:08:53 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Sun Dec 23 03:22:51 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W221C9729CEF4D617E90E59DC5F0@phx.gbl>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><035301c840fb$4d1463d0$b5c16018@DL01>
	<c47283890712171432w7e5a633ej7673469675579782@mail.gmail.com>
	<03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
	<BAY123-W173CB36371D1797F0A9CCDDC5C0@phx.gbl>
	<3E9D0B23-6B50-42F9-9418-DE9F46921C62@dc.rr.com>
	<BAY123-W2556969448CC65FE5B90A3DC5E0@phx.gbl>
	<2BD0F4FE-1683-4F42-8AB5-94BB13D1A372@dc.rr.com>
	<BAY123-W221C9729CEF4D617E90E59DC5F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <40FEC661-E2FB-47F3-A961-2FD383683C60@dc.rr.com>


whew, good.

don
On Dec 22, 2007, at 3:47 PM, rob mooney wrote:

> Don. I didn't say there was no art, I just said there was no good  
> or bad. I agree with what you've said.
>
> From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:57:12 -0800
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:19 AM, rob mooney wrote:
>
> there is no good or bad art. Just stuff you like and stuff you don't.
>
> No, there is art, and you do know it when you see it, or hear it.  
> Even if you hate it.
>
> Art is not about liking or disliking it is about acting, and that  
> don't mean play acting,
> which is what a lot of current so-called art actually is.
>
> don
>
>
>
> From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:54:23 -0800
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>
> As I said, Art Acts. And there are all kinds of art. But there is  
> no such animal as good art or bad art. There is only art and non-art.
>
> don
>
> On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:01 PM, rob mooney wrote:
>
> "poems are epiphanic documents and show the writer in the process  
> of making their discoveries, so that the reader can re-enact and re- 
> live them, not merely feel their after effects or learn the poet's  
> wise conclusions."
>
> (Don patterson)
>
> I expect this goes for C++, painting, music, dancing, sculpture,  
> photography, millenery, etc. Maybe even when Don F chooses a tee  
> shirt...
>
>
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:22:32 -0500
>
> ISmeaningfulTM to say the answer to these questions is yes, and to  
> say that Bohm, talking about infinite subtlety and when he says it  
> is as far "in there" inside the atom as it is "out there" through  
> the universe substantiates the view I'm trying to learn how to  
> explicate.
>
> Where or what is the personal identity while being sensitive enough  
> to "hear" the direction that amounts to improv?
>
> Once again, my programming friend says there is no identity  
> movement while writing code.  If there was, he would be unable to  
> write code because C++, he says, is not the language appropriate  
> for the personal identity.  That is, personal identity simply has  
> no meaning in the Visual Basic or C++ language.
>
> Are you aware of Irene's personal identity movement while doing  
> improv?  -- dl
>
>
> \
> From: Irene Darcy
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> I:  We're getting into the idea of Nada Brahma, now.  And to say  
> more, I'd have to  go get my book.
>
> It would have been more accurate to say one creates a time-space  
> line when one moves, I think.
>
> Why do all the good things happen at once?  I'm working on Bach  
> Goldberg.  My Eurhythmics teacher is giving a three day workshop  
> soon on what an improviser can learn from them, and I'm preparing  
> for it.  I would love to have heard Bach sit down and jam with  
> Paquito d'Rivera; throw in Sidney Bechet for good measure on  
> clarinet, and Eugene Ysaye on violin.
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> I:  Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.
>
> What about the idea that every time you move, you are using time  
> and space?
>
> Is there time and space absent homo-sappo, prior to homo-sappo?   
> Perhaps more precisely, is there some actuality indicated by time  
> and space that is prior to homo-sappo?  -- dl
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Irene Darcy
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> I:  Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.  And  
> imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk <  
> lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
> To be or not to be?   Is there a choice?  Is the question the  
> problem?  What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form;  
> explicate is implicate is explicate?)
>
>
>
> On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
>
> the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- Rob
>
> Maybe.  I've been using the idea of imagination, thought to think  
> of the identity of things including us.
>
> I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all  
> this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known,  
> with the language or knowing system of imagination.
>
> It's a bit spooky to think that us is not.  That is, the notness or  
> non being must be addressed.  The anxiety does not go away simply  
> by acting and pretending it is not there.
>
> Maybe one way to avoid the anxiety of non being is to understand  
> the idea that relative being is part of the whole of Being.   dl
>
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rob mooney <mailto:rob.mooney@hotmail.co.uk>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:37 PM
> Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could  
> there be no space?
>
> the old old thought occurs -- no us?
>
>
>
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:05:03 -0500
>
> if there is no space time tea cake etc aren't we wasting our...  
> um... breath
>
> The thought occurs -- since we all use time, space, etc., how could  
> there be no space?  Maybe we could say that it is only a useful  
> concept and use while being aware that it is limited.
>
> Would that be in the direction of unlimited experience? -- dl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Irene
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Irene
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Everything in one place. All new Windows Live!
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search  
> Charades!
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
> Sounds like? How many syllables? Guess and win prizes with Search  
> Charades!
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue

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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com  Sun Dec 23 03:21:00 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Sun Dec 23 03:28:15 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] message from admin
In-Reply-To: <010d01c844f7$bf521e60$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <942989.91927.qm@web57415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<476D8925.000005.04180@VAIO-584793128F>
	<010d01c844f7$bf521e60$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <13A57086-0774-4662-936D-26D2885B0F24@dc.rr.com>

I am informed that pit is still subscribed here under yet another  
name, possibly more than one. He has written to Irene and quoted  
something she wrote to the list after he was unsubscribed. So, keep  
your eyes open for any hints. Susan has a very keen eye for such  
things. She was the first to spot that AEB was pit.

don

On Dec 22, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Don Lay wrote:

> Please note that Peter's emails are no longer being distributed by  
> the bohm_dialogue list server.  He has been unsubscribed as  
> a.debakey@yahoo.com but is now sending his spam directly from his  
> own server as humanimal@thinkg.net. I suggest you update your spam  
> filter. -- admin
>
> Under the circumstances, I believe it is not inappropriate to pass  
> on the following which I thought was sent to the Bohm list but was  
> actually directed to one of Peter's addresses:
>
> [was something about Failure]
>
> If dialogue, from the Greek dia logos indicates reason, is it  
> reasonable to expect a dialogue to be the use of reason and to  
> eliminate the ignoring of or distortion of reason and meaning?
>
> It seems entirely reasonable, rational, and perhaps more to the  
> point -- meaningful -- to not allow the lack of, or distortion of  
> reason and meaning, to occur in place of dialogue.
>
> Some questions occur:
>
> May meaningful communication occur without reason, ratio, meaning?
> Does communication occur absent reason, ratio, and meaning?
>
> When reason, ration, meaning is distorted or absent, is  
> communication possible?  Is meaningful communication possible?
>
> My view is that the moderator's present actions are reasonable,  
> rational and meaningful and are therefore, dialogical.  -dl
>
>
>
>
> bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org wrote:
> You are now unsubscribed from Bohm_Dialogue
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The 'good'/'bad' news first: Pit is out (gone, booted, unsubbed,  
> 'taken-care-of', dedialoged...).
>
> The 'better'/'worse' knews next: s'he is NOT. S'he is still verii  
> much here, among yoUs.
>
> Once again, D-Factor could not "take it", could not "handle it"...  
> ~ so he "pulled the plug" (oncommunication, and thus, at --the core  
> of-- dialogue).
>
> Once again, B-Dialogue could not "take it", could not "handle  
> it"... ~ so you "pulled the plug" (on communication, and thus, at -- 
> the core of-- dialogue).
>
> Once again, B-Dialogue=you have failed, re failing.
>
> Once again, the "problem/s" did not and do not and will not "go  
> away" because of this move(away).
>
> Once again you will talk another trillion years  'penetratingly'  
> about (B)Dialogue, its beauty (beast): w/o, once again, for once,  
> just once,   being able to let it happen: (B)Dialogue, to let it  
> takgive place, time (tice)... dobeing touched (penetration, see  
> above) by it. Once again you findy that groupi strength  
> ("coherence", cohesion) in what Don Lay likes to title: "Acting &  
> Pretending". Once again, you wo'managed to gather around the  
> camp&fire&place of vanities, and superficialities, and phonitities,  
> softplaying, neckmassagings, makeupping..... And if it was not so  
> pathetictictic, I would congratulate you.
>
> Once again, the 'problem' pit will not go away by moving, pushing,  
> pullpushitting him/her/it offlist, & under the 'rug' (of  
> "self&awareness").
>
> Once again, the "peters" of this world ARE a part of tas, ARE,  
> thusly, a part of YOU. ARE systemic, systematictictic.... And, like  
> Bohm's story about the woman who keeps beating herself (while)  
> under the i'm-pressure to be under attack: the attacked=the  
> attacker= the attack. So, by 'any means': go 'ahead', and keep  
> beating yourselves, bones, while you drool over that the- 
> observer=the-observed=.... stuff(ing). bood luckg.
>
> ii is still hear, and watching, and in 'awe'.... see you in a bit/pit.
>
> Tschuess  )(
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  
> Try it now.
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-admin
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 5:01 PM
> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] message from admin
>
> Please note that Peter's emails are no longer being distributed by  
> the bohm_dialogue list server.  He has been unsubscribed as  
> a.debakey@yahoo.com but is now sending his spam directly from his  
> own server as humanimal@thinkg.net. I suggest you update your spam  
> filter.
>
> admin
>
>
>
>
> Return-Path: <humanimal@thinkg.net>
> Delivery-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:19:10 +0100
> Received: from host52.host52-server.com (host52.host52-server.com  
> [66.49.137.121])
>  by mx.kundenserver.de (node=mxeu25) with ESMTP (Nemesis)
>  id 0MKstg-1J680E0KyC-0004k8 ; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:19:10 +0100
> X-ClientAddr: 127.0.0.1
> Received: from www.thinkg.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
>  by host52.host52-server.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id  
> lBMHJ33G015778;
>  Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:19:03 -0500
> Received: from 70.23.253.227
>         (SquirrelMail authenticated user humanimal@thinkg.net)
>         by www.thinkg.net with HTTP;
>         Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:19:08 -0500 (GMT)
> Message-ID: <50379.70.23.253.227.1198343948.squirrel@www.thinkg.net>
> In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1198287578.1367.bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> References: <mailman.2.1198287578.1367.bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:19:08 -0500 (GMT)
> Subject: Re: Request to mailing list Bohm_D
> From: humanimal@thinkg.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> X-MailScanner-From: humanimal@thinkg.net
> Envelope-To: w@david-bohm.net
>
> Ooooooooooh,
> noooooooooo
> problema, senor
>
> will just use one of the other few hand-full-full-fulls  ;---))
>
> ciao
>
> cheers
>
> .... later ... (wellaugh: soooon)
>
> humanimal
>
>
>
> > Your request to the Bohm_Dialogue mailing list
> >
> >     Subscription request
> >
> > has been rejected by the list moderator.  The moderator gave the
> > following reason for rejecting your request:
> >
> > "[No reason given]"
> >
> > Any questions or comments should be directed to the list  
> administrator
> > at:
> >
> >     bohm_dialogue-owner@david-bohm.org
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue

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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com  Sun Dec 23 03:32:51 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Sun Dec 23 03:40:05 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <011e01c844f8$9408ec10$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <016201c840e6$ded1b440$b5c16018@DL01><C38C3C99.FA94%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com><c47283890712171353j95c274bj9096a97ab64953bc@mail.gmail.com><035301c840fb$4d1463d0$b5c16018@DL01><c47283890712171432w7e5a633ej7673469675579782@mail.gmail.com><03a501c84114$78c7a3c0$b5c16018@DL01><BAY123-W173CB36371D1797F0A9CCDDC5C0@phx.gbl><3E9D0B23-6B50-42F9-9418-DE9F46921C62@dc.rr.com><BAY123-W2556969448CC65FE5B90A3DC5E0@phx.gbl>
	<2BD0F4FE-1683-4F42-8AB5-94BB13D1A372@dc.rr.com>
	<BAY123-W221C9729CEF4D617E90E59DC5F0@phx.gbl>
	<011e01c844f8$9408ec10$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <32078CCC-B025-4EB5-BD2A-1E5557CE513F@dc.rr.com>

Bob Rauschenberg said that  once you come into contact with a work of  
art will, after you have seen/heard/read it, change forever the way  
you experience the world. Often this occurs in very subtle ways. It  
is worth considering why certain works of art, so called, have  
remained significant for long periods of time while others that may  
have been popular in their own day are now long forgotten.

I too liked Langer's ideas on aesthetics. But she was writing before  
the current phase of American and European art where the art objects  
have been transformed into commodities. This is the first time in  
history where young people want to get into a good art college  
because they see it as a source of possible fame and riches. These  
days, you are only considered an artist if you can show off  an MFA  
degree. Its all about money. We may have Andy Warhol to blame for  
that. He DID force us to see the world differently, but for a lot of  
people his irony was taken too literally. So huge numbers of people  
believe that they deserve to be famous for fifiteen minute, one way  
or another.  Peter Krauss is probably one of them. So, I guess you  
can't win 'em all.

don
fi
On Dec 22, 2007, at 4:13 PM, Don Lay wrote:

> I appreciate the idea of art and no art rather than "good or bad" art.
>
> I'm intrigued though with Aesthetics and thus about the Don's  
> notion of art that "Art is not about liking or disliking it is  
> about acting, and that don't mean play acting, which is what a lot  
> of current so-called art actually is.".
>
> Don would you please elaborate. -- dl
>
> ps:  My bias is toward Susan Langer.
>
>
>
> From: rob mooney
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 6:47 PM
> Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> Don. I didn't say there was no art, I just said there was no good  
> or bad. I agree with what you've said.
>
> From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:57:12 -0800
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:19 AM, rob mooney wrote:
>
> there is no good or bad art. Just stuff you like and stuff you don't.
>
> No, there is art, and you do know it when you see it, or hear it.  
> Even if you hate it.
>
> Art is not about liking or disliking it is about acting, and that  
> don't mean play acting,
> which is what a lot of current so-called art actually is.
>
> don
>
>
>
> From: DFACTOR@dc.rr.com
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:54:23 -0800
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>
> As I said, Art Acts. And there are all kinds of art. But there is  
> no such animal as good art or bad art. There is only art and non-art.
>
> don
>
> On Dec 18, 2007, at 4:01 PM, rob mooney wrote:
>
> "poems are epiphanic documents and show the writer in the process  
> of making their discoveries, so that the reader can re-enact and re- 
> live them, not merely feel their after effects or learn the poet's  
> wise conclusions."
>
> (Don patterson)
>
> I expect this goes for C++, painting, music, dancing, sculpture,  
> photography, millenery, etc. Maybe even when Don F chooses a tee  
> shirt...
>
>
> From: donlay@knology.net
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:22:32 -0500
>
> ISmeaningfulTM to say the answer to these questions is yes, and to  
> say that Bohm, talking about infinite subtlety and when he says it  
> is as far "in there" inside the atom as it is "out there" through  
> the universe substantiates the view I'm trying to learn how to  
> explicate.
>
> Where or what is the personal identity while being sensitive enough  
> to "hear" the direction that amounts to improv?
>
> Once again, my programming friend says there is no identity  
> movement while writing code.  If there was, he would be unable to  
> write code because C++, he says, is not the language appropriate  
> for the personal identity.  That is, personal identity simply has  
> no meaning in the Visual Basic or C++ language.
>
> Are you aware of Irene's personal identity movement while doing  
> improv?  -- dl
>
>
> \
> From: Irene Darcy
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> I:  We're getting into the idea of Nada Brahma, now.  And to say  
> more, I'd have to  go get my book.
>
> It would have been more accurate to say one creates a time-space  
> line when one moves, I think.
>
> Why do all the good things happen at once?  I'm working on Bach  
> Goldberg.  My Eurhythmics teacher is               giving a three  
> day workshop soon on what an improviser can learn from them, and  
> I'm preparing for it.  I would love to have heard Bach sit down and  
> jam with Paquito d'Rivera; throw in Sidney Bechet for good measure  
> on clarinet, and Eugene Ysaye on violin.
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> I:  Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.
>
> What about the idea that every time you move, you are using time  
> and space?
>
> Is there time and space absent homo-sappo, prior to homo-sappo?   
> Perhaps more precisely, is there some actuality indicated by time  
> and space that is prior to homo-sappo?  -- dl
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Irene Darcy
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> I:  Every time you move you are creating explicate time-space.  And  
> imagination has its place when it's not out of balance.
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 4:47 PM, Lynne Tolk <  
> lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com> wrote:
> To be or not to be?   Is there a choice?  Is the question the  
> problem?  What about yes? (form is emptiness, emptiness is form;  
> explicate is implicate is explicate?)
>
>
>
> On 12/17/07 12:56 PM, "Don Lay" <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
>
> the old old thought occurs -- no us? -- Rob
>
> Maybe.  I've been using the                       idea of  
> imagination, thought to think of the identity of things  
> including                       us.
>
> I think I'm beginning to understand something like the idea of all  
> this that is as unknown and thought equating with the imaged known,  
> with the language or knowing system of imagination.
>
> It's a bit spooky to think that us is not.  That is, the notness or  
> non being must be addressed.  The anxiety does