From zoechuzero at yahoo.com Mon Sep 25 04:50:47 2006
From: zoechuzero at yahoo.com (Zoe Chu)
Date: Tue Sep 26 05:45:03 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D169551AE4@msw2k.msw.local>
Message-ID: <20060925025047.50273.qmail@web55014.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Dorothy - There are currently an estimated 6,5 billion people on this planet. How many of them do Bohm-Dialogue? And why? (Respectively: Why not?) Interestingly, you mention guilt, and Kirsten has been talking at length about denial. From my current studies of this list and what its members demonstrate, not just very recently, I bet that both of them help to shed some light into the "why". --- Zoe
Dorothy Stulberg <DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote: who knows what I take out of what someone says. But I take something very important about this one Zoe--I hope I'm right. What good DOES it do to discuss Bohm from the position of privilege. There is something about the trickle effect. I've done the trickle effect for 30 years and a bunch of people are more at peace. So what. It is the big structure of society that needs to be hacked at. I don't know how to do that.
I'm so exhausted at this point of trying to get a discrimination case settled after 19 years and a workers comp case settled for a very injured person. I think "what am I doing spending time on this". But there is value as I think about my own actions and my responsibility and even my well being.
If I survive the trial Tuesday, I'm off to visit my sister in Texas and to take a train ride into Mexico. I'm going to treasure my privileges for a little while without feeling guilt (it says here).
Zoe, what is the "same old, same old"
---------------------------------
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Zoe Chu
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 2:06 PM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Dorothy Stulberg <DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote: what happened to dialogue? The word ignorant doesn't belong here. Both Zoe and Don have important things to say. I struggle between the two views. I see the pain and the horrors and yet have to realize that there are some beautiful things in the world, some beautiful people and many wanting everyone to have a chance to become whatever they can become. It is a fine balance between appreciating the beauty and recognizing the ugly. That means recognizing the world of gray--not beautiful nor ugly but both and that both are in all our lives, rich or poor or in between. Don's world and my world and Zoe's world are "the world" for them and for me.
There is danger in becoming too philosophical--the beauty of Bohm was the realness, the connectedness with the world. If we stop being in both places, we lose his value. Let's talk about ideas instead of devaluing the person. Devalue the ideas but only through dialogue. There is no "truth". There is just working toward a better understanding of all the possible "truths" and which works in whatever context we are in. (My Sunday sermen (sp) taken from the time I should be figuring ways that my clients are able to undermine the "power" that keeps them from being everything they can be. or want to be. D
Dorothy - Where do you take from that I do not see beauty in this ? Please point me to where I say so, if I did. Also: What good can Bohm-Dialogue do, what can it do, if it is entertained and played like a salon-game by an esoteric bunch of white, old-aged, well-off, healthy folks? I have been here long enough to study, also the archive, to see how the dynamics of this group works. That's one of reasons I came here. You might recall: I am currently a student of Systems-Dynamics. Bohm-Dialogue is just the same ol, same ol. But most of you, not sure how long absorbed in it, might not see it - anymore --- Zoe
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Zoe Chu
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:03 PM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Don Factor - What you wrote here was the most ignorant contribution I encoutered so far in this forum. Not merely are you displaying a high-wire act of projecting, but underneath your (twisted) performance gets revealed its "net" of structured pathos. "Your" world is not "the" world; you appear to live in quite some ivory tower. When was the last time you ventured beyond your (intellectual?) shopping-mall? --- Zoe Chu
Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: Zoe, I don't know where you live, but if you live in America or Canada or in Europe or in any major city apart from one of a few obvious trouble spots, I would bet that you can take a walk down any street in your neighbourhood and you will see a world where there are people shopping and walking and driving, going to work and coming home to their families, taking their kids to school, having a coffee at the local Starbucks, and so on. And you will have to go to a lot of trouble to see at first hand any of the awful stuff that you describe.
I don't deny that a lot of what you describe exists and there are major problems in the world that need solving and that a lot of them are not being dealt with honestly or effectively. So our world needs lot of help. But you are lucky to be living now, with a cool broadband connection to the internet, a safe place to live. You are neither starving nor suffering from untreatable diseases, nor hiding from insurgents or rebels or inquisitors or the gestapo. What you describe is the sort of stuff that is magnified and over hyped in order to sell newspapers, and pay newscaster's fat salaries. It is the kind of stuff that is aimed at keeping governments in power by making ordinary citizens feel frightened and helpless. it is the business of governments and their allies in the media to keep you feeling helpless and terrorised, in order for them to keep their power. Power, by the way, is the one thing that nobody ever gives up without a fight.
don
On 23 Sep 2006, at 21:49, Zoe Chu wrote:
Don - Which Globe are you on? Mine is (called) Global-Warming, Peakoil, Genocides, Wars-all-over, Overpopulation, Epidemics, Mass-starvations, Pollution, Collapse-of-natural-Stocks, Social-Injustice, Mass-Extinctions, Torture, Election-Fraud, Rainforest-Destruction, Record-Diabetes, Mass-suicides-of-Indian-farmers, World-Freshwater-loss, Famines, Religious-Extremism, Nuclear-Proliferation, Genetic-Design -- just to name a very few. Whatever you might be inclined to perceive as "improvements" will soon, according to the majority of experts, have no more stage to take place on. The theater is on fire. No? Regards --- Zoe
Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote: For one thing, there is the growth of human population which is now well in excess of 6 billion people. I suppose you can work out the percentages. My comments implied that at least some parts of the world are more peaceful now than ever before. Also, your figures are somewhat questionable. Who did the counting? And especially, who did the counting of all the people killed in the past? These are the sort of extrapolations that make good headlines but that's all. I don't mean to deny we have had pretty violent times but the process of change has to start somewhere. Of course, these day, killing is far more efficient, so one smallish war can account for many more casualties than some ancient big ones.
As recently as when I was a kid, during WWII, war was still considered something glorious. To be a war hero was something very positive, at least in the Anglo American cultural setting. That is much less the case these days.
I can only say that if things have begun to change in some places it may be possible for them to change in others. For instance,Kirsten's vast masses of modern mechanical men in Russia and the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, no longer reads as true as it might have a couple of decades ago.
don
On 23 Sep 2006, at 16:15, Zoe Chu wrote:
Don - How do following facts fit in your picture (imagination?)? Respectively: How do you fit them?
The Past century was the most lethal in human history: Over 200 million people were killed in 250 wars and genocidal onslaughts, more people than were killed in warfare in the past two thousand years.
Which (historical) fact/s do you base your "We-have-a-choice" on?
Regards --- Zoe
Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 22 Sep 2006, at 14:37, kirsten schneide wrote:
> Reality is remorseless because gods do not walk upon the earth; and
> if men could become noble repositories of great gulfs of nonbeing,
> they would have even less peace than we oblivious and driven madmen
> have today. Besides, can any ideal of therapeutic revolutions touch
> the vast masses of this globe, the modern mechanical men in Russia,
> the near-billion sheeplike followers in China, the brutalized and
> ignorant populations of almost every continent?
I know you are fond of quoting Ernest Becker's pessimism, and
actually doing the sort of stuff he wrote about - cannibalising and
plagiarising his texts, for your own purposes. But Becker for some
reason had a very rough time of it, even after writing his
masterpiece, The Denial of Death, he couldn't hold a job. He died of
cancer at a very young age. Pity. But this was one man's experience.
I figure we have a choice. The laws of human nature are not fixed nor
are they final. And if there is a limit, then it is yet to be
discovered.
Amongst the animals we are unique in that we can imagine and we can
communicate abstract concepts. We can, or some of us can, experience
love without the necessity of it leading to reproduction or orgasms
or power. Simple things like this hold out possibilities for
something beyond what you might call our biological necessities.
You choose to take the path of pessimism which reveals your own fear
of death and meaningless. I am happier with optimism seasoned lightly
with a bit of scepticism. Remember there was a time when humans had
no idea how to cook food and that was that. They knew nothing of
domesticating animals and were prey to the bigger and faster
predators. There was also a time when a consensus of the experts
agreed on ideas such as nobody can travel faster than a mile a
minute and that space travel was a physical impossibility. They also
agreed that, before Einstein came along that physics was finished.
pretty well all wrapped up. Nobody should be advised to become a
physicist because there was nothing left to learn. And there was also
a time when people with psychological disorders ended up in mad
houses that served mainly as places where the bourgeoisie could
entertain themselves laughing at the loonies.. My point here is that
to presuppose the sort of limitation that you seem to take as given
insures that such limitation will prove to be what you think it is,
at least for you
So, the only positive idea that I can draw from these pessimistic
posts of yours is that you want us to help you get past your own fear
of death. I read a cry that says, "Convince me. Show me that I am
wrong." But nobody can do that for you. There are some here, I know,
who have overcome there fear of death, and who know that their
meaning does not die with them. So iif you are frightened, maybe you
ought to gather up your courage and ask for help.
don
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From zoechuzero at yahoo.com Mon Sep 25 05:06:12 2006
From: zoechuzero at yahoo.com (Zoe Chu)
Date: Tue Sep 26 06:00:26 2006
Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <7BE2AA9A-6473-4D16-8DDD-564E38485B00@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20060925030612.55903.qmail@web55014.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Don - I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am rather interested in getting one about what you are NOT talking about. Again, may I ask you:
Why are you doing Dialogue? --- Zoe
Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
LOL but without their humor,
don
On 24 Sep 2006, at 20:09, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
> "Kirsten" & "Zoe" seem reminiscent of "One" & "Another."
>
> pat
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
_______________________________________________
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Mon Sep 25 05:13:13 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Tue Sep 26 06:14:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060925025047.50273.qmail@web55014.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060925031313.57065.qmail@web52902.mail.yahoo.com>
zoe, you sound aggressive or annoyed. i know that's my interpretation. what position are you defending? or what's the big deal? or why must we be violent?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:50:47 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Dorothy - There are currently an estimated 6,5 billion people on this planet. How many of them do Bohm-Dialogue? And why? (Respectively: Why not?) Interestingly, you mention guilt, and Kirsten has been talking at length about denial. From my current studies of this list and what its members demonstrate, not just very recently, I bet that both of them help to shed some light into the "why". --- Zoe
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Mon Sep 25 05:43:18 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Tue Sep 26 06:37:38 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <bd3.454ee60.3248598a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C13CAC76.7322%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Hi Mark,
I am also relatively new, and I also love hearing bits and pieces about
people?s lives. As a grandmother, I suppose I fit Zoe?s profile of
?old-aged?, but I?ve never thought of myself as ?aged? (young or old) at any
point in my life, just human. I am passionate about ideas, about
understanding myself, others, and all the rest of this world. I love
studying Bohm?s ideas, and hope to start a local dialogue group here. I?m
learning from this list, which challenges my thinking regularly. And I?m
starting to jump in myself a little more. Glad to meet you!
Thanks for your music.
Lynne
On 9/24/06 3:58 PM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Franis,
>
> Thanks for telling me a bit about yourself and it's great to find a bit about
> the people whose names I'm starting to recognise as the emails arrive.
>
> It took me a while to discover how this list works - I was expecting a "forum"
> thing where you get to see what everyone's posted, and this seems a bit
> different to that. So I'm going to hang around and get the sense of how this
> all works.
>
> I'm fascinated by Bohm and the possibilty of encouraging better dialogues. I'm
> a musician and am interested in some of the parallels between dialogue and
> (particularly) improvisation - and wondering if we can learn by moving between
> the two. I've left my "day job" of 23 years to explore this a bit more, as I
> think people, particularly in groups, can discover amazing things when they
> create stuff together - and have found that health professionals, in
> particular, are attracted to this sort of work. By the way, if you want to see
> what I look like and hear a piece of music you are most welcome - I'm at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlKx3YPL5I but I wouldn't recommend it on a
> dialup modem!
>
> All the best, and thank you for your welcome!
>
> Mark
>> Hey Mark -
>> We're pretty forgiving around here, except to Kirsten, (who some members
>> are convinced is masquerading as former troublemaker Peter Krauss.)
>> Both/either of them had to work a long time to earn it.
>>
>>> >I guess the gentleness was a bit of humour - not sure if humour is
>> allowed in dialogue?!! -
>> Yeah, humor is even encouraged, but it's a little difficult for it to
>> come across in writing sometimes.
>> Kirsten/Peter writes: welcome to that
>> white-middle-class-health-insured-truth-seeking... ~
>> Don't know about others, but I'm an exception to that. I think that I'm
>> volunteer poverty level, well-educated, non-health insured and I've
>> worked for myself all my life so I'm not going to get any Social
>> Security. (Of course, I probably wouldn't have gotten it either way by
>> the time I get old.) Up until six months ago I was, in the legal
>> definition, homeless for the previous ten years. It was because I lived
>> in my own RV here and there. I may go back to that lifestyle again,
>> because it was so low stress. I'm suffering from a disease where the
>> treatment is worse than the disease, in my case. I often tease my
>> boyfriend that he's middle class - because he doesn't recycle, is
>> constantly spending money with the justification of convenience, and has
>> ruined his credit. I don't believe in credit, so I'm one of the people my
>> age who doesn't owe thousands of dollars that I must keep paying to have
>> borrowed. It's a rare item in my house I haven't gotten free - including
>> the two free computers I own. I was lucky to buy a three dollar a month
>> dialup eons ago, so life is good.
>> So - I'll add my welcome the others to you. Hope you enjoy reading us
>> all in some way; many of us are glad to have someone who writes back.
>> - Franis
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 25 10:58:42 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Tue Sep 26 11:53:41 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <bd3.454ee60.3248598a@aol.com>
References: <bd3.454ee60.3248598a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ADF65B04-2562-4FBA-855A-4F62BF5A0413@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
For a long time I've felt that dialogue ought to be able to do
something like jazz musicians do - to improvise collectivity. It
seems, though that humans can do all sorts of things together except
talk together about stuff that is important to them. It was this
recognition along with the fact that talking is what we have to do in
order to get along together - in families, businesses, parliaments,
etc. - that got us interested in exploring this approach to dialogue
in the first place.
don
On 24 Sep 2006, at 22:58, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
> Hi Franis,
>
> Thanks for telling me a bit about yourself and it's great to find a
> bit about the people whose names I'm starting to recognise as the
> emails arrive.
>
> It took me a while to discover how this list works - I was
> expecting a "forum" thing where you get to see what everyone's
> posted, and this seems a bit different to that. So I'm going to
> hang around and get the sense of how this all works.
>
> I'm fascinated by Bohm and the possibilty of encouraging better
> dialogues. I'm a musician and am interested in some of the
> parallels between dialogue and (particularly) improvisation - and
> wondering if we can learn by moving between the two. I've left my
> "day job" of 23 years to explore this a bit more, as I think
> people, particularly in groups, can discover amazing things when
> they create stuff together - and have found that health
> professionals, in particular, are attracted to this sort of work.
> By the way, if you want to see what I look like and hear a piece of
> music you are most welcome - I'm at http://www.youtube.com/watch?
> v=QFlKx3YPL5I but I wouldn't recommend it on a dialup modem!
>
> All the best, and thank you for your welcome!
>
> Mark
> Hey Mark -
> We're pretty forgiving around here, except to Kirsten, (who some
> members
> are convinced is masquerading as former troublemaker Peter Krauss.)
> Both/either of them had to work a long time to earn it.
>
> >I guess the gentleness was a bit of humour - not sure if humour is
> allowed in dialogue?!! -
> Yeah, humor is even encouraged, but it's a little difficult for it to
> come across in writing sometimes.
> Kirsten/Peter writes: welcome to that
> white-middle-class-health-insured-truth-seeking... ~
> Don't know about others, but I'm an exception to that. I think that
> I'm
> volunteer poverty level, well-educated, non-health insured and I've
> worked for myself all my life so I'm not going to get any Social
> Security. (Of course, I probably wouldn't have gotten it either way by
> the time I get old.) Up until six months ago I was, in the legal
> definition, homeless for the previous ten years. It was because I
> lived
> in my own RV here and there. I may go back to that lifestyle again,
> because it was so low stress. I'm suffering from a disease where the
> treatment is worse than the disease, in my case. I often tease my
> boyfriend that he's middle class - because he doesn't recycle, is
> constantly spending money with the justification of convenience,
> and has
> ruined his credit. I don't believe in credit, so I'm one of the
> people my
> age who doesn't owe thousands of dollars that I must keep paying to
> have
> borrowed. It's a rare item in my house I haven't gotten free -
> including
> the two free computers I own. I was lucky to buy a three dollar a
> month
> dialup eons ago, so life is good.
> So - I'll add my welcome the others to you. Hope you enjoy reading us
> all in some way; many of us are glad to have someone who writes back.
> - Franis
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 25 11:05:43 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Tue Sep 26 12:00:09 2006
Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060925030612.55903.qmail@web55014.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <20060925030612.55903.qmail@web55014.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9022039E-3D9E-41EB-BD2A-B1E9FE02ECE2@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
LOL is internet jargon for laugh out loud, In order to tell you why I
do dialogue I guess you would do well to read Dialogue - A Proposal
that I wrote in conjunctions with Bohm and Peter Garrett. it is short
and is widely and freely available on the web. You would also have to
read over a lot of my past posts. I say this, because although my
interest in dialogue has remained constant since we began this
project with real live people sitting together, until right now, but
why I continue to do it here on this list changes with time and
circumstances. If you are really interested and want to do the
research perhaps you could tell me. I would love to know myself.
don
On 25 Sep 2006, at 04:06, Zoe Chu wrote:
> Don - I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am rather
> interested in getting one about what you are NOT talking about.
> Again, may I ask you:
>
> Why are you doing Dialogue? --- Zoe
>
>
>
> Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> LOL but without their humor,
>
> don
>
> On 24 Sep 2006, at 20:09, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
>
> > "Kirsten" & "Zoe" seem reminiscent of "One" & "Another."
> >
> > pat
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 11:26:16 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 12:20:35 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Important"
In-Reply-To: <ADF65B04-2562-4FBA-855A-4F62BF5A0413@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F31654CF9812F5E8F59D0FAA8240@phx.gbl>
Dear Donf,
Please share with us
What is "important" to you.
Love & Trafficjam, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
It
>seems, though that humans can do all sorts of things together except talk
>together about stuff that is important to them. Donf
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 11:38:25 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 12:32:50 2006
Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060925030612.55903.qmail@web55014.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F4086DEA0C74CD99E79828A8240@phx.gbl>
Dear Zoe ~ there is really not much to understand. Donf & Co cannot get
(into) why they sit at their harddrives a 'good' portion of 'their' days and
chatgroup a'way......be'cause: it is (in) their: Chemistry...... dont go
after their neurochemical structure, or they behave 'like' animals stripped
of their (protective) clothing/armor.... that noisy shivering of laughter &
fear. Excellent place to watch here. Well, (Bohm)Dialog is good for some
thinkgs, after 'all'.... as I say: A "beautiful" case&study, those donfs.
So, back to you asking donf why he does "dialog" (sending a few emails back
and forth, hell&heaven, 'half' the world does that): His not answering
answers it, no? Let them keep their sheapy sleep. Besides: He thinkgs he is
a wolf, a little one at least; a wolflet you might say ;-!
Love & Petfood ,Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:06:12 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Don - I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am rather interested
>in getting one about what you are NOT talking about. Again, may I ask you:
>
> Why are you doing Dialogue? --- Zoe
>
>
>
>Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> LOL but without their humor,
>
>don
>
>On 24 Sep 2006, at 20:09, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
>
> > "Kirsten" & "Zoe" seem reminiscent of "One" & "Another."
> >
> > pat
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 11:41:48 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 12:36:07 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060925031313.57065.qmail@web52902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F209C483659B3F3A6741AD9A8240@phx.gbl>
Dear Kari,
Why does Zoe sound
quoteaggressiveorannoyedendquote?
Can you explain?
Or you just 'felt'
Like spitting it
Out?
Ps: Ever thinkg about how "Kari" ........: sounds?
Love & Children, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
>zoe, you sound aggressive or annoyed. i know that's my interpretation. what
>position are you defending? or what's the big deal? or why must we be
>violent?
>
>kari
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:50:47 PM
>Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
>Dorothy - There are currently an estimated 6,5 billion people on this
>planet. How many of them do Bohm-Dialogue? And why? (Respectively: Why
>not?) Interestingly, you mention guilt, and Kirsten has been talking at
>length about denial. From my current studies of this list and what its
>members demonstrate, not just very recently, I bet that both of them help
>to shed some light into the "why". --- Zoe
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 11:44:52 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 12:39:14 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
Message-ID: <BAY107-F271AF031E4D6DACA56A15FA8240@phx.gbl>
Dear Mark ~
Where does that thinkg
Trick y
Come from?
.................."Tricky"??
Love & Unplugged, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 11:58:30 EDT
>
>
>
>Well, OK, entering a new group is always tricky. I'm interested in Bohm's
>work and how dialogue can be used in groups to improve the quality of
>conversations in the organisations I work with. I guess the gentleness was
>a bit of
>humour - not sure if humour is allowed in dialogue?!!
>
>What do you mean by "gentle"
>
>And why do you mean it ?
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Search—say hello!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Sep 25 11:54:08 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 12:48:30 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
Message-ID: <4fb.583ed11.32490140@aol.com>
Hi Kirsten,
When I enter a new group I'm always conscious of the power relationships -
and by entering there's some disruption because it becomes a new group. So I
guess I mean tricky in the sense that joining a highway (motorway) is - you
have to gauge what's happening and what speed everyone's going and join in
gently without disrupting the traffic and causing an accident. Perhaps that's my
construction but I find it a helpful one. Once I've joined and get a sense of
who's doing what and which drivers might do surprising things, I feel more
confident that I can cope with it.
Mark
Dear Mark ~
Where does that thinkg
Trick y
Come from?
.................."Tricky"??
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Sep 25 11:59:31 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 12:53:56 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me - answering myself!
Message-ID: <c19.55b4b33.32490283@aol.com>
On the other hand, I might also argue that by disrupting, the power
relationships surface themselves and things become more interesting. Whether by
disrupting (the equivalent of barging into the traffic on the road you're joining)
is generative or not, depends on the group. I don't know the people well
enough to know that so I guess I play it safe by being careful in joining.
Interesting thought though - I could have barged in and tested the boundaries of
the rules!
When I enter a new group I'm always conscious of the power relationships -
and by entering there's some disruption because it becomes a new group. So I
guess I mean tricky in the sense that joining a highway (motorway) is - you
have to gauge what's happening and what speed everyone's going and join in
gently without disrupting the traffic and causing an accident. Perhaps that's my
construction but I find it a helpful one. Once I've joined and get a sense of
who's doing what and which drivers might do surprising things, I feel more
confident that I can cope with it.
Mark
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From descf at aol.com Mon Sep 25 13:48:22 2006
From: descf at aol.com (DesCF)
Date: Tue Sep 26 14:42:34 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
Message-ID: <op.tgfm25yaupgxg0@descstar>
I remember several years ago a lot of people complained about a particular
manufacturers (I forget who) mobile phone product. There were big red
symbols that stayed lit and flashed even when the phone was switched off.
Customers thought that the phones were faulty.
A spokesman for the company on breakfast TV explained that there was
nothing wrong with the phones and that it was just a feature of the
product. The phones had originally been intended for the Italian market
but had been redirected to the UK consequent to a shortage. In Italy, he
explained, a man wears his heart on his sleeve and they like big, bold,
colourful symbols.
I found this interesting because in the UK the two main political parties,
Labour and the Tories, are referred to as the ?party of the heart? and the
?party of the head? respectively. These descriptions could easily be
likened to the symbolic and the strategic.
A situation has a tendency to express something recognised by all ? a kind
of social consensus on definition regardless of anyone?s particular
perspective. For example a simple scene situated in an office of an older
man in suit and tie shouting at a younger man dressed only in a shirt and
trousers tends to suggest a senior manager angry at a junior employee who
has erred in some way. The appearence itself is symbolic of this kind of
definition.
Animals can only react at the symbolic level. Their environment expresses
something to them and they react. This is why animals are easy to fool
and trap. They cannot think strategically or at least only to a very
limited extent. Humans by comparison, with the capacity to envisage their
own death, can make plans, devise tactics, and generally think
strategically. In this sense the symbolic tends towards the simple and
the strategic the complex.
Simple symbolic thinking requires a delimited context, i.e. to abstract
something and view it in isolation from its surroundings, and then make
judgements and decisions in relation to it. For example:
The hospital is going to close
Closing hospitals is bad and open hospitals is good
People who close hospitals are bad and people who keep hospitals open are
good
It sounds good in a sense but outside the delimited context the hospital
closure might be part of a strategic plan involving the opening of several
new hospitals.
What makes this particularly interesting is that it is commonly held that
the right in politics (in the UK) are better at handling economies and
tackling crime (black economies and illegal forms of business) than the
left. Economies and crime generally involve strategic thinking as the
symbolic proves somewhat inadequate. It?s of further interest that people
who have experience of business or crime (often as victims) tend towards
the right. So I am wondering if this distinction between the symbolic and
the strategic is a fundamental distinction between the left and the right ?
Des
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Mon Sep 25 14:14:55 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 15:09:28 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <20060926100004.CE64B231DA@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF76A1FD27.B9CE54F9-ON852571F4.003F8AA0-852571F4.004348C3@dialogos.com>
Rodger __Hi Dorothy, no lesson, I just liked how Chaplin's choosing to
dance for pennies on the street differs from what many other individuals in
that circumstance would CHOOSE to do based on the view that an
unjustifiable situation has complete control of their options.
But I especially saw relevance in how the Keystone Cops conveyed a murpheys
law syndrome; Everything that could be wrong; is. And everything that can
go wrong; will.
In the name-of-justice, as police, their act showed pessimism transformed
from psychological to behavioral.
The act isolates a pattern of self defeat, taken from the public mind, and
put into silent film exposing a comedy that lays within self defeat. That
to me, is art. _R
.
.
From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com>
Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
Is the lesson that there is good and bad and that it is possible for the
good to come from the bad? Whatever good or bad is? Or if he had not
become successful and well known would this US ever have changed? Or if
he had been black or a woman? Or handicapped? Or poor? D.
.
.
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Mon Sep 25 14:48:34 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 15:43:02 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
In-Reply-To: <20060926100004.CE64B231DA@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF64296C41.9D7C1623-ON852571F4.00444727-852571F4.00465D4B@dialogos.com>
Rodger __Welcome Mark! I have taken part in dialogue since 1983. In the
early years the dialogues were repressed in favor of a thought to be as
rational as possible about gaining understanding of the thought system. Not
so surprising, considering the times and that most in the dialogue group
were scientists or mathematicians etc.
In my opinion, it was the growing friendships in the group, thus emotion --
along with leaps forward being made in modern psychology -- that brought
realization of it being not possible to look at thought system rationally
without also including the relevant feelings behind the thoughts that were
being shared.
I think you can imagine how many different stages this process has gone
through since then._R
.
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 14:09:39 EDT
From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
.
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 25 14:54:54 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Tue Sep 26 15:49:17 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
In-Reply-To: <op.tgfm25yaupgxg0@descstar>
References: <op.tgfm25yaupgxg0@descstar>
Message-ID: <670FB76F-8CE1-4A25-B6C9-8C2EA4819696@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
On this list, which lacks any visual component, the only access we
have to the symbolic is our use of language, and perhaps some of what
a few of us have revealed about our own lives. Thus, on this list, if
your model is to stand up, we must be ruled mainly by the strategic.
But it doesn't feel that way.
In the real world, it would also seem that, here in the UK, Tories,
at least those who I know, have either a personal, strategic - call
it economic - reason for their political preferences, rather than an
intellectual one or an ideological one, -"I have always voted
Tory." Most of these ideological Tory\s are not well educated and
tend to know about the world by reading the Telegraph or one of the
tabloids. If they have digital TV the tend to watch Sky News. My left
leaning friends and acquaintances tend to be much better informed by
a wider spectrum of information sources, have been to university, and
are much more open to being parts of the larger world. Interestingly
I haven't found the so-called class links to politics to be very
obvious. Although, I was raised in a completely different culture -
the US - the distinction seems to be even more pronounced. So nature
or nurture?
In rereading the above it is probably pretty obvious where my heart
lies.
don
On 25 Sep 2006, at 12:48, DesCF wrote:
>
> I remember several years ago a lot of people complained about a
> particular manufacturers (I forget who) mobile phone product.
> There were big red symbols that stayed lit and flashed even when
> the phone was switched off. Customers thought that the phones were
> faulty.
>
> A spokesman for the company on breakfast TV explained that there
> was nothing wrong with the phones and that it was just a feature of
> the product. The phones had originally been intended for the
> Italian market but had been redirected to the UK consequent to a
> shortage. In Italy, he explained, a man wears his heart on his
> sleeve and they like big, bold, colourful symbols.
>
> I found this interesting because in the UK the two main political
> parties, Labour and the Tories, are referred to as the ?party of
> the heart? and the ?party of the head? respectively. These
> descriptions could easily be likened to the symbolic and the
> strategic.
>
> A situation has a tendency to express something recognised by all ?
> a kind of social consensus on definition regardless of anyone?s
> particular perspective. For example a simple scene situated in an
> office of an older man in suit and tie shouting at a younger man
> dressed only in a shirt and trousers tends to suggest a senior
> manager angry at a junior employee who has erred in some way. The
> appearence itself is symbolic of this kind of definition.
>
> Animals can only react at the symbolic level. Their environment
> expresses something to them and they react. This is why animals
> are easy to fool and trap. They cannot think strategically or at
> least only to a very limited extent. Humans by comparison, with
> the capacity to envisage their own death, can make plans, devise
> tactics, and generally think strategically. In this sense the
> symbolic tends towards the simple and the strategic the complex.
>
> Simple symbolic thinking requires a delimited context, i.e. to
> abstract something and view it in isolation from its surroundings,
> and then make judgements and decisions in relation to it. For
> example:
>
> The hospital is going to close
> Closing hospitals is bad and open hospitals is good
> People who close hospitals are bad and people who keep hospitals
> open are good
>
> It sounds good in a sense but outside the delimited context the
> hospital closure might be part of a strategic plan involving the
> opening of several new hospitals.
>
> What makes this particularly interesting is that it is commonly
> held that the right in politics (in the UK) are better at handling
> economies and tackling crime (black economies and illegal forms of
> business) than the left. Economies and crime generally involve
> strategic thinking as the symbolic proves somewhat inadequate.
> It?s of further interest that people who have experience of
> business or crime (often as victims) tend towards the right. So I
> am wondering if this distinction between the symbolic and the
> strategic is a fundamental distinction between the left and the
> right ?
>
>
>
>
> Des
>
> --
> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/
> m2/
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 25 14:59:00 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Tue Sep 26 15:53:21 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <OF76A1FD27.B9CE54F9-ON852571F4.003F8AA0-852571F4.004348C3@dialogos.com>
References: <OF76A1FD27.B9CE54F9-ON852571F4.003F8AA0-852571F4.004348C3@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <8A9C1003-C5C0-478A-ADE0-8E226153506E@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
So, incoherence makes better movies than coherence? Probably so.
Coherence all by itself can be pretty boring just as harmony without
a dissonance to resolve would make for pretty tedious listening.
Unless of course you are using to meditate.
Self: Hmmm
Other: Yeah, good point.
And another: Ohmmmmmmmmmmmm
don
On 25 Sep 2006, at 13:14, Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com wrote:
> Rodger __Hi Dorothy, no lesson, I just liked how Chaplin's choosing
> to dance for pennies on the street differs from what many other
> individuals in that circumstance would CHOOSE to do based on the
> view that an unjustifiable situation has complete control of their
> options.
>
> But I especially saw relevance in how the Keystone Cops conveyed a
> murpheys law syndrome; Everything that could be wrong; is. And
> everything that can go wrong; will.
> In the name-of-justice, as police, their act showed pessimism
> transformed from psychological to behavioral.
>
> The act isolates a pattern of self defeat, taken from the public
> mind, and put into silent film exposing a comedy that lays within
> self defeat. That to me, is art. _R
> .
> .
> From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com>
> Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
> .
> Is the lesson that there is good and bad and that it is possible
> for the
> good to come from the bad? Whatever good or bad is? Or if he had not
> become successful and well known would this US ever have changed?
> Or if
> he had been black or a woman? Or handicapped? Or poor? D.
> .
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From earthsky at tiscali.co.uk Mon Sep 25 15:03:59 2006
From: earthsky at tiscali.co.uk (Gill Wyatt)
Date: Tue Sep 26 16:00:34 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <ADF65B04-2562-4FBA-855A-4F62BF5A0413@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C13D9244.95FF%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi everyone reading!!
I signed up to this group a few weeks ago. I've been very curious about how
this group works and it's really chnaged over the few weeks I have been
reading mails. I've enjoyed hearing from more people ... as initially it
just seemed to be the same half a dozen people and it felt pretty hard to
join in.
I've enjoyed how some people are saying more about who they are ... and I've
really liked how you have joined and participated Mark. I liked your music
too.
I am currently in the middle of a long sabbatical while I transition between
being a psychotherapist and group facilitator into whatever next I am going
to do. I sent an email a couple of weeks ago that fell between the pages of
this dialogue ... nobody responded and of course as a result I don't even
know if anybody read it ...
But I guess in reading this mail of your's Don and reading through a whole
load of mail as I have been away for a few days ... I am again reminded by
what I wrote then ... and the question that remains for me ... What brings
about a group working together, being able to improvise and co-creative
together as opposed to what can feel to me as meaningless chaos where people
chose to be rude and cruel to each other? When can conflict lead to 'true'
dialogue and when does it destroy the possibility of dialogue?
Hi Pat and Rodger,
I have worked with groups as a facilitator for nearly 20 years in differing
capacities. For about the last 10 years I became aware of how some groups
came into harmony through the spoken word ... so that by listening to each
others differences, leaning into what was expressed to unearth the
assumptions and by letting patterns and connections unfold there was what I
have come to call a 'holonic shift'. Its as if the group takes up a
particular thread and gradually each person joins the harmonious (although
at times there will be conflict and strong disagreement) unfolding of a
creative shared meaning. It stuns me when this happens and I feel such awe.
I wrote my Masters dissertation about this. And I'd agree one person can
prevent it occurring. I'm curious about the implication that David Bohm's
presence and the aikido's instructor presence played a part in the groups
energy being harmonious. I've felt a shyness to look at say the part that
the facilitaor plays seeing that I have been the facilitator.
When this 'holonic shift' occurs the functioning of the group lifts to a
much higher level and individuals consciousness seems to be at least
temporarily lifted and expanded ...
I know i have taken only a part of what you were exploring ...and I am
finding my feet regarding how this discussion site works ...
Gill
So I guess the point I am making is that I have experienced some groups
working together with dialogue like jazz musicians. I ran a workshop on
Saturday on 'Transcending the victim/oppressor dynamic' and I wasn't
expecting what happened ... it was as if for the whole day we were dialoging
and improvising, creating a shared understanding and meaning of the focus
... and of course that meant that at least for that time we had either
suspended or transcended the power plays inherent in victim/opppressor
stuff!
So with hope ...
Gill
From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:58:42 +0100
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
For a long time I've felt that dialogue ought to be able to do something
like jazz musicians do - to improvise collectivity. It seems, though that
humans can do all sorts of things together except talk together about stuff
that is important to them. It was this recognition along with the fact that
talking is what we have to do in order to get along together - in families,
businesses, parliaments, etc. - that got us interested in exploring this
approach to dialogue in the first place.
don
?
On 24 Sep 2006, at 22:58, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
Hi Franis,
?
Thanks for telling me a bit about yourself and it's great to find a bit
about the people whose names I'm starting to recognise as the emails arrive.
?
It took me a while to discover how this list works - I was expecting a
"forum" thing where you get to see what everyone's posted, and this seems a
bit different to that. So I'm going to hang?around and get the sense of how
this all works.
?
I'm fascinated by Bohm and the possibilty of encouraging better dialogues.
I'm a musician and am interested in some of the parallels between dialogue
and (particularly) improvisation - and wondering if we can learn by moving
between the two. I've left my "day job"?of 23 years to explore this a bit
more, as I think people, particularly in groups,?can discover amazing things
when they create stuff together - and?have found that?health professionals,
in particular,?are attracted to this sort of work.?By the way, if you want
to see what I look like and hear a piece of music you are most welcome - I'm
at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlKx3YPL5I?but I wouldn't recommend it on
a dialup modem!
?
All the best, and thank you for your welcome!
?
Mark
Hey Mark -
We're pretty forgiving around here, except to Kirsten, (who some members
are convinced is masquerading as former troublemaker Peter Krauss.)
Both/either of them had to work a long time to earn it.
>I guess the gentleness was a bit of humour - not sure if humour is
allowed in dialogue?!! -
Yeah, humor is even encouraged, but it's a little difficult for it to
come across in writing sometimes.
Kirsten/Peter writes: welcome to that
white-middle-class-health-insured-truth-seeking... ~
Don't know about others, but I'm an exception to that. I think that I'm
volunteer poverty level, well-educated, non-health insured and I've
worked for myself all my life so I'm not going to get any Social
Security. (Of course, I probably wouldn't have gotten it either way by
the time I get old.) Up until six months ago I was, in the legal
definition, homeless for the previous ten years. It was because I lived
in my own RV here and there. I may go back to that lifestyle again,
because it was so low stress. I'm suffering from a disease where the
treatment is worse than the disease, in my case. I often tease my
boyfriend that he's middle class - because he doesn't recycle, is
constantly spending money with the justification of convenience, and has
ruined his credit. I don't believe in credit, so I'm one of the people my
age who doesn't owe thousands of dollars that I must keep paying to have
borrowed. It's a rare item in my house I haven't gotten free - including
the two free computers I own. I was lucky to buy a three dollar a month
dialup eons ago, so life is good.
So - I'll add my welcome the others to you.? Hope you enjoy reading us
all in some way; many of us are glad to have someone who writes back.
- Franis
?
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Mon Sep 25 15:34:37 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 16:29:10 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <20060926100004.CE64B231DA@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OFF997E07D.F2AA2B45-ON852571F4.0046D5A4-852571F4.004A949F@dialogos.com>
Rodger __Hi dorothy, yes the value I saw in the Chaplin piece is as you
say, but I would take it one step further; When am -I- learning, if not
now?
It comes down to my recognition as an individual of the age old pattern of
righteous-vs-wrongness. While the data constantly changes, if the program
is overlooked, the experience created is left essentially the same. And
stemming from the same righteous emotions comes the same self defeat;
albeit righteously.
Some exchanges in recent dialogue exemplify this right-vs-wrong pattern.
Data is used to identify as many wrongs about a thing or person as
possible, as if to support the rightness of the person who is identifying
the list of wrongs. But I think the data is irrelevent -- It is the pattern
that remains the center of attention for dialogue. R
.
.
From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com>
Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
When will "they" learn? I rephrase it--when will "we" learn. d.
.
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From DStulberg at msw-law.com Mon Sep 25 15:42:48 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Tue Sep 26 16:36:38 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D169551AEB@msw2k.msw.local>
the age old pattern of righteous vs wrongness!! It seems easier doesn't
it to just say black and white. you're wrong and I'm right or you're
right and I'm wrong. Neither gets anywhere.
I do think data have a role--but only when considered within the
pattern. An airplane wouldn't fly without someone looking at and
collecting data. Nor would it fly without seeing the data within a
pattern. d.
________________________________
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of
Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 8:35 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Rodger __Hi dorothy, yes the value I saw in the Chaplin piece is as you
say, but I would take it one step further; When am -I- learning, if not
now?
It comes down to my recognition as an individual of the age old pattern
of righteous-vs-wrongness. While the data constantly changes, if the
program is overlooked, the experience created is left essentially the
same. And stemming from the same righteous emotions comes the same self
defeat; albeit righteously.
Some exchanges in recent dialogue exemplify this right-vs-wrong pattern.
Data is used to identify as many wrongs about a thing or person as
possible, as if to support the rightness of the person who is
identifying the list of wrongs. But I think the data is irrelevent -- It
is the pattern that remains the center of attention for dialogue. R
.
.
From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com>
Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
When will "they" learn? I rephrase it--when will "we" learn. d.
.
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Sep 25 16:13:29 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 17:08:01 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Message-ID: <279.f986174.32493e09@aol.com>
Are "Data" and "Pattern" just two of the qualitative levels that Bohm talks
about in "On Dialogue" - that there are infinite qualitative levels, and we
see roughly what we expect to see against a background which itself is an
infinity of qualitative levels? Just wondering - I'm still struggling with what
Bohm might have meant when he wrote this...
the age old pattern of righteous vs wrongness!! It seems easier doesn't it
to just say black and white. you're wrong and I'm right or you're right and
I'm wrong. Neither gets anywhere.
I do think data have a role--but only when considered within the pattern.
An airplane wouldn't fly without someone looking at and collecting data. Nor
would it fly without seeing the data within a pattern. d.
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From descf at aol.com Mon Sep 25 16:25:50 2006
From: descf at aol.com (DesCF)
Date: Tue Sep 26 17:20:02 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
In-Reply-To: <670FB76F-8CE1-4A25-B6C9-8C2EA4819696@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
References: <op.tgfm25yaupgxg0@descstar>
<670FB76F-8CE1-4A25-B6C9-8C2EA4819696@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <op.tgfudljpupgxg0@descstar>
I suppose stereotyping is a form of simplistic symbolic thinking as well
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:54:54 +0100, Don Factor
<donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On this list, which lacks any visual component, the only access we
> have to the symbolic is our use of language, and perhaps some of what a
> few of us have revealed about our own lives. Thus, on this list, if your
> model is to stand up, we must be ruled mainly by the strategic. But it
> doesn't feel that way.
>
> In the real world, it would also seem that, here in the UK, Tories, at
> least those who I know, have either a personal, strategic - call it
> economic - reason for their political preferences, rather than an
> intellectual one or an ideological one, -"I have always voted Tory."
> Most of these ideological Tory\s are not well educated and tend to know
> about the world by reading the Telegraph or one of the tabloids. If they
> have digital TV the tend to watch Sky News. My left leaning friends and
> acquaintances tend to be much better informed by a wider spectrum of
> information sources, have been to university, and are much more open to
> being parts of the larger world. Interestingly I haven't found the
> so-called class links to politics to be very obvious. Although, I was
> raised in a completely different culture - the US - the distinction
> seems to be even more pronounced. So nature or nurture?
>
> In rereading the above it is probably pretty obvious where my heart lies.
>
> don
>
>
> On 25 Sep 2006, at 12:48, DesCF wrote:
>
>>
>> I remember several years ago a lot of people complained about a
>> particular manufacturers (I forget who) mobile phone product. There
>> were big red symbols that stayed lit and flashed even when the phone
>> was switched off. Customers thought that the phones were faulty.
>>
>> A spokesman for the company on breakfast TV explained that there was
>> nothing wrong with the phones and that it was just a feature of the
>> product. The phones had originally been intended for the Italian
>> market but had been redirected to the UK consequent to a shortage. In
>> Italy, he explained, a man wears his heart on his sleeve and they like
>> big, bold, colourful symbols.
>>
>> I found this interesting because in the UK the two main political
>> parties, Labour and the Tories, are referred to as the ?party of the
>> heart? and the ?party of the head? respectively. These descriptions
>> could easily be likened to the symbolic and the strategic.
>>
>> A situation has a tendency to express something recognised by all ? a
>> kind of social consensus on definition regardless of anyone?s
>> particular perspective. For example a simple scene situated in an
>> office of an older man in suit and tie shouting at a younger man
>> dressed only in a shirt and trousers tends to suggest a senior manager
>> angry at a junior employee who has erred in some way. The appearence
>> itself is symbolic of this kind of definition.
>>
>> Animals can only react at the symbolic level. Their environment
>> expresses something to them and they react. This is why animals are
>> easy to fool and trap. They cannot think strategically or at least
>> only to a very limited extent. Humans by comparison, with the capacity
>> to envisage their own death, can make plans, devise tactics, and
>> generally think strategically. In this sense the symbolic tends
>> towards the simple and the strategic the complex.
>>
>> Simple symbolic thinking requires a delimited context, i.e. to abstract
>> something and view it in isolation from its surroundings, and then make
>> judgements and decisions in relation to it. For example:
>>
>> The hospital is going to close
>> Closing hospitals is bad and open hospitals is good
>> People who close hospitals are bad and people who keep hospitals open
>> are good
>>
>> It sounds good in a sense but outside the delimited context the
>> hospital closure might be part of a strategic plan involving the
>> opening of several new hospitals.
>>
>> What makes this particularly interesting is that it is commonly held
>> that the right in politics (in the UK) are better at handling economies
>> and tackling crime (black economies and illegal forms of business) than
>> the left. Economies and crime generally involve strategic thinking as
>> the symbolic proves somewhat inadequate. It?s of further interest that
>> people who have experience of business or crime (often as victims) tend
>> towards the right. So I am wondering if this distinction between the
>> symbolic and the strategic is a fundamental distinction between the
>> left and the right ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Des
>>
>> --Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/
>> m2/
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 25 17:01:05 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Tue Sep 26 17:56:08 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
In-Reply-To: <op.tgfudljpupgxg0@descstar>
References: <op.tgfm25yaupgxg0@descstar>
<670FB76F-8CE1-4A25-B6C9-8C2EA4819696@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
<op.tgfudljpupgxg0@descstar>
Message-ID: <9F54E73B-440F-4C0B-9920-2BD9A7072097@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Do you mean like a white, middle class shemale calling some other
(possibly) white, (possibly) middle class males and females, black?
don
On 25 Sep 2006, at 15:25, DesCF wrote:
> I suppose stereotyping is a form of simplistic symbolic thinking as
> well
>
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:54:54 +0100, Don Factor
> <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On this list, which lacks any visual component, the only access
>> we have to the symbolic is our use of language, and perhaps some
>> of what a few of us have revealed about our own lives. Thus, on
>> this list, if your model is to stand up, we must be ruled mainly
>> by the strategic. But it doesn't feel that way.
>>
>> In the real world, it would also seem that, here in the UK,
>> Tories, at least those who I know, have either a personal,
>> strategic - call it economic - reason for their political
>> preferences, rather than an intellectual one or an ideological
>> one, -"I have always voted Tory." Most of these ideological Tory
>> \s are not well educated and tend to know about the world by
>> reading the Telegraph or one of the tabloids. If they have digital
>> TV the tend to watch Sky News. My left leaning friends and
>> acquaintances tend to be much better informed by a wider spectrum
>> of information sources, have been to university, and are much more
>> open to being parts of the larger world. Interestingly I haven't
>> found the so-called class links to politics to be very obvious.
>> Although, I was raised in a completely different culture - the US
>> - the distinction seems to be even more pronounced. So nature or
>> nurture?
>>
>> In rereading the above it is probably pretty obvious where my
>> heart lies.
>>
>> don
>>
>>
>> On 25 Sep 2006, at 12:48, DesCF wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I remember several years ago a lot of people complained about a
>>> particular manufacturers (I forget who) mobile phone product.
>>> There were big red symbols that stayed lit and flashed even when
>>> the phone was switched off. Customers thought that the phones
>>> were faulty.
>>>
>>> A spokesman for the company on breakfast TV explained that there
>>> was nothing wrong with the phones and that it was just a feature
>>> of the product. The phones had originally been intended for the
>>> Italian market but had been redirected to the UK consequent to a
>>> shortage. In Italy, he explained, a man wears his heart on his
>>> sleeve and they like big, bold, colourful symbols.
>>>
>>> I found this interesting because in the UK the two main political
>>> parties, Labour and the Tories, are referred to as the ?party of
>>> the heart? and the ?party of the head? respectively. These
>>> descriptions could easily be likened to the symbolic and the
>>> strategic.
>>>
>>> A situation has a tendency to express something recognised by all
>>> ? a kind of social consensus on definition regardless of anyone?s
>>> particular perspective. For example a simple scene situated in
>>> an office of an older man in suit and tie shouting at a younger
>>> man dressed only in a shirt and trousers tends to suggest a
>>> senior manager angry at a junior employee who has erred in some
>>> way. The appearence itself is symbolic of this kind of definition.
>>>
>>> Animals can only react at the symbolic level. Their environment
>>> expresses something to them and they react. This is why animals
>>> are easy to fool and trap. They cannot think strategically or at
>>> least only to a very limited extent. Humans by comparison, with
>>> the capacity to envisage their own death, can make plans, devise
>>> tactics, and generally think strategically. In this sense the
>>> symbolic tends towards the simple and the strategic the complex.
>>>
>>> Simple symbolic thinking requires a delimited context, i.e. to
>>> abstract something and view it in isolation from its
>>> surroundings, and then make judgements and decisions in relation
>>> to it. For example:
>>>
>>> The hospital is going to close
>>> Closing hospitals is bad and open hospitals is good
>>> People who close hospitals are bad and people who keep hospitals
>>> open are good
>>>
>>> It sounds good in a sense but outside the delimited context the
>>> hospital closure might be part of a strategic plan involving the
>>> opening of several new hospitals.
>>>
>>> What makes this particularly interesting is that it is commonly
>>> held that the right in politics (in the UK) are better at
>>> handling economies and tackling crime (black economies and
>>> illegal forms of business) than the left. Economies and crime
>>> generally involve strategic thinking as the symbolic proves
>>> somewhat inadequate. It?s of further interest that people who
>>> have experience of business or crime (often as victims) tend
>>> towards the right. So I am wondering if this distinction between
>>> the symbolic and the strategic is a fundamental distinction
>>> between the left and the right ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Des
>>>
>>> --Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://
>>> www.opera.com/m2/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/
> m2/
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 18:26:17 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 19:20:43 2006
Subject: AW: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <9022039E-3D9E-41EB-BD2A-B1E9FE02ECE2@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F3561A28210550472FA5B9BA8240@phx.gbl>
Dear Donf, you don't deem it as arrogant/ignorant, or, if that displeases
you less, respectively pleases you more:
a (bit) lame
to tell someone who asks you, in the con-text of dialog, 'your' dialog, to
go and study some dusty proposals and all un'kind of musty archive-materials
of your posting-actives reaching back maybe 10plus years, just to then add:
that your purposes are changing anyhow, 'all' the time, with the wwwind.....
why don't you just give us a few sentences, you know, that thinkg in a
nut&shell, where you (the wind) is currently coming from, hm?...... you
don't want to?... you can't?
Love & Chips, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
Donf: why
>I do dialogue I guess you would do well to read Dialogue - A Proposal
>that I wrote in conjunctions with Bohm and Peter Garrett. it is short and
>is widely and freely available on the web. You would also have to read
>over a lot of my past posts.
_________________________________________________________________
Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live
Spaces
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 18:54:34 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 19:49:01 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
In-Reply-To: <4fb.583ed11.32490140@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F18238FF006706F88285705A8240@phx.gbl>
Dear Mark ~
The image of dialog as a "free"way doesnt really get me going/far.
I rather liken it with:
http://www.skyways.org/towns/Sabetha/images/Playground%207.jpg
http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue9912/images/ml04.jpg
What do you thinkg?
PS: Good to have some musician here on board (of fools)... can you please
send some clips
Love & Strings, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: MarkHarmer@aol.com a
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 05:54:08 EDT
>
>
>
>Hi Kirsten,
>
>When I enter a new group I'm always conscious of the power relationships -
>and by entering there's some disruption because it becomes a new group. So
>I
>guess I mean tricky in the sense that joining a highway (motorway) is - you
>have to gauge what's happening and what speed everyone's going and join in
>gently without disrupting the traffic and causing an accident. Perhaps
>that's my
>construction but I find it a helpful one. Once I've joined and get a sense
>of
>who's doing what and which drivers might do surprising things, I feel more
>confident that I can cope with it.
>
>Mark
>
>Dear Mark ~
>
>Where does that thinkg
>
>Trick y
>
>Come from?
>
>
>
>.................."Tricky"??
>
>
>
>
>**********************
>
>Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible
>Incredibows in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on
>payment,
>there's free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee
>for your
>complete piece of mind. Visit _http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk_
>(http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/) and you'll find out why our customers
>love us!
>
>Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece
>celtic band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK,
>Ireland,
>Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at
>_http://www.celtmusic.co.uk_ (http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/)
>
>Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you
>owe
>it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children
>will
>get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime
>of
>music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at
>_http://www.musicgarden.co.uk_
>(http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/)
>
>NEW!
>
>What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About
>leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For
>organisational
>consulting and group work with a sound difference, see
>_http://www.yourmusic.biz_ (http://www.yourmusic.biz/) - building on 24
>years of successful
>organisational learning!
>
>COMING SOON
>
>Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and
>fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop.
>Fabulous frogs,
>delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at
>_http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk_
>(http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/)
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Search—say hello!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Sep 25 19:07:43 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Sep 26 20:02:10 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F18238FF006706F88285705A8240@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C13D851F.3215%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Hello - I'm new, and just getting oriented, but I was enticed and intrigued
by the reference to music. I am a musician, and working on the Bohm ideas
of Implicated and Explicate order, pattern interrelationships of structure
and creativity in the context of composition and improvisation (not
restricted to jazz). Was particularly impressed with "On Creativity". I'm
looking forward to broadening my understanding of that in particular, and
Bohm in general.
All the best, Kathy
On 9/25/06 12:54 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Mark ~
>
> The image of dialog as a "free"way doesnt really get me going/far.
>
> I rather liken it with:
>
> http://www.skyways.org/towns/Sabetha/images/Playground%207.jpg
>
> http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue9912/images/ml04.jpg
>
> What do you thinkg?
>
> PS: Good to have some musician here on board (of fools)... can you please
> send some clips
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Love & Strings, Kirsten
>
>
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com a
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
>> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 05:54:08 EDT
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Kirsten,
>>
>> When I enter a new group I'm always conscious of the power relationships -
>> and by entering there's some disruption because it becomes a new group. So
>> I
>> guess I mean tricky in the sense that joining a highway (motorway) is - you
>> have to gauge what's happening and what speed everyone's going and join in
>> gently without disrupting the traffic and causing an accident. Perhaps
>> that's my
>> construction but I find it a helpful one. Once I've joined and get a sense
>> of
>> who's doing what and which drivers might do surprising things, I feel more
>> confident that I can cope with it.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Dear Mark ~
>>
>> Where does that thinkg
>>
>> Trick y
>>
>> Come from?
>>
>>
>>
>> .................."Tricky"??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> **********************
>>
>> Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible
>> Incredibows in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on
>> payment,
>> there's free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee
>> for your
>> complete piece of mind. Visit _http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk_
>> (http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/) and you'll find out why our customers
>> love us!
>>
>> Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece
>> celtic band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK,
>> Ireland,
>> Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at
>> _http://www.celtmusic.co.uk_ (http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/)
>>
>> Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you
>> owe
>> it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children
>> will
>> get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime
>> of
>> music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at
>> _http://www.musicgarden.co.uk_
>> (http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/)
>>
>> NEW!
>>
>> What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About
>> leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For
>> organisational
>> consulting and group work with a sound difference, see
>> _http://www.yourmusic.biz_ (http://www.yourmusic.biz/) - building on 24
>> years of successful
>> organisational learning!
>>
>> COMING SOON
>>
>> Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and
>> fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop.
>> Fabulous frogs,
>> delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at
>> _http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk_
>> (http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/)
>>
>>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The next generation of Search?say hello!
>
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTA>
G
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 21:29:09 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 22:25:02 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
In-Reply-To: <C13D851F.3215%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F272AE796EBF9DEF18B7AA7A8240@phx.gbl>
Dear Kathryn
Welcome!
Please you too send some samples
Of your music ~ thanks
It is about time
To loosen up this
Textcentric dia logus some how
http://www.talariaenterprises.com/images2/4104a.jpg
Love & Swinger, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:07:43 -0400
>
>Hello - I'm new, and just getting oriented, but I was enticed and intrigued
>by the reference to music. I am a musician, and working on the Bohm ideas
>of Implicated and Explicate order, pattern interrelationships of structure
>and creativity in the context of composition and improvisation (not
>restricted to jazz). Was particularly impressed with "On Creativity". I'm
>looking forward to broadening my understanding of that in particular, and
>Bohm in general.
>
>All the best, Kathy
>
>
>On 9/25/06 12:54 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
> >
> > Dear Mark ~
> >
> > The image of dialog as a "free"way doesnt really get me going/far.
> >
> > I rather liken it with:
> >
> > http://www.skyways.org/towns/Sabetha/images/Playground%207.jpg
> >
> > http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue9912/images/ml04.jpg
> >
> > What do you thinkg?
> >
> > PS: Good to have some musician here on board (of fools)... can you
>please
> > send some clips
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Love & Strings, Kirsten
> >
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com a
> >> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 05:54:08 EDT
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Kirsten,
> >>
> >> When I enter a new group I'm always conscious of the power
>relationships -
> >> and by entering there's some disruption because it becomes a new group.
>So
> >> I
> >> guess I mean tricky in the sense that joining a highway (motorway) is -
>you
> >> have to gauge what's happening and what speed everyone's going and
>join in
> >> gently without disrupting the traffic and causing an accident. Perhaps
> >> that's my
> >> construction but I find it a helpful one. Once I've joined and get a
>sense
> >> of
> >> who's doing what and which drivers might do surprising things, I feel
>more
> >> confident that I can cope with it.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> Dear Mark ~
> >>
> >> Where does that thinkg
> >>
> >> Trick y
> >>
> >> Come from?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> .................."Tricky"??
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> **********************
> >>
> >> Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible
> >> Incredibows in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately
>on
> >> payment,
> >> there's free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble
>guarantee
> >> for your
> >> complete piece of mind. Visit _http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk_
> >> (http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/) and you'll find out why our
>customers
> >> love us!
> >>
> >> Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece
> >> celtic band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the
>UK,
> >> Ireland,
> >> Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all
>at
> >> _http://www.celtmusic.co.uk_ (http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/)
> >>
> >> Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then
>you
> >> owe
> >> it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children
> >> will
> >> get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a
>lifetime
> >> of
> >> music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at
> >> _http://www.musicgarden.co.uk_
> >> (http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/)
> >>
> >> NEW!
> >>
> >> What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About
> >> leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For
> >> organisational
> >> consulting and group work with a sound difference, see
> >> _http://www.yourmusic.biz_ (http://www.yourmusic.biz/) - building on
>24
> >> years of successful
> >> organisational learning!
> >>
> >> COMING SOON
> >>
> >> Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and
> >> fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop.
> >> Fabulous frogs,
> >> delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at
> >> _http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk_
> >> (http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The next generation of Search—say hello!
> >
>http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTA>
>G
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Search—say hello!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 21:39:05 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 22:33:32 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
In-Reply-To: <670FB76F-8CE1-4A25-B6C9-8C2EA4819696@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F11B094C6E1E17073CFB7CDA8240@phx.gbl>
Dear Gatekeeper Donf
> On this list, which lacks any visual component, the only access we have
>to the symbolic is our use of language, and perhaps
You recall that it 's
No body but your self
Who b'locked the access
Of other thinkgs but texts
In this form, that was
(for newcomers) once
Inhabitated by all un'kind
Of creatures ... and
Their play/instruments
(like pictures, paintings, montages, sounds, videos, etc etc)
..... you, M(e)ister, are some thinkg .... "special" ;-!
http://www.magicsoil.com/MSREV2/blinders.jpg
Love & Memories, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 21:44:50 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 22:40:26 2006
Subject: AW: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming con$en&
In-Reply-To: <0MKwh2-1GRa780ta9-0008EE@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F2869AF637A4A65F599E44FA8240@phx.gbl>
Dear William, please, tell us, how do you "make a living*"
* Protection
Love & Bloodmoney, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>In those days it was the McCarthy era, protecting the people against
>communism.
>
>Nowadays it is the Cheney era, protecting the people against terrorism.
>
>When will they ever learn?
>
>
>
>william
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>Von: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
>[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] Im Auftrag von
>Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
>Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. September 2006 00:22
>An: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Betreff: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
>
>
>
>Rodger __Hey Dorothy, did you know?...
>
>BBC NEWS, sept 23, 2006; On this day in 1952 world famous film actor and
>director Charlie Chaplin returned to England for the first time in 21
>years... ...he would not comment on reports that US Attorney General James
>McGranery may not allow him to return to America pending an investigation
>into alleged "subsversive", left-wing activities.
>
>Mr Chaplin was born in London in 1889. His mother had a nervous breakdown
>and his father died when Charlie was five.
>
>He danced in the street for pennies with his half-brother, Sydney, and was
>then sent to an orphanage. He came to America when he was 17 with a troupe
>of players and in 1912 joined the Keystone company to appear in his first
>silent film, Making a Living.
>
>In 1919 he co-founded United Artists and made such classics as The Kid
>(1921), City Lights (1928), Modern Times (1936), and The Great Dictator
>(1940).
>
>After visiting England he went to Paris where he was awarded the Legion of
>Honour for his contribution to cinema.
>
>After Paris he went to Rome and then Switzerland, where he made his home
>after he was barred from the US for his left-wing views.
>He and his wife went on to have four more children.
>
>In 1972 he was not only allowed back for a visit -to the US- but was
>awarded
>a Special Academy Award. Three years later he was knighted by the Queen.
>.
>.
>From: "Dorothy Stulberg" <DStulberg@msw-law.com>
>Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>.
>I am so stressed over what our (my) country has done and is doing.
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best
route! http://local.live.com
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Sep 25 22:04:20 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Sep 26 22:59:08 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] new subscriber
Message-ID: <C13DAE84.3221%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Hi ? I?m new as of today. I?m still trying to figure out how the email
process works, so this is just a test. I?m looking forward to the group.
Best, Kathy
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Sep 25 22:13:28 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 23:08:08 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] new subscriber
Message-ID: <56e.59a0713.32499268@aol.com>
Hi Kathy,
Welcome from someone who's also new as of a few days ago. I was expecting
this list to be more like a web forum so you get lots of emails instead. But it
does seem to make sense once you get going with it.
Mark
Hi ? I?m new as of today. I?m still trying to figure out how the email
process works, so this is just a test. I?m looking forward to the group.
Best, Kathy
-------------- next part --------------
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Mon Sep 25 22:20:28 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Tue Sep 26 23:14:56 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] new subscriber
In-Reply-To: <C13DAE84.3221%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F97AABCF45F64021FE14EBA8240@phx.gbl>
I¹m still trying to figure out how the email
>process works [...]
Dear Kathy, wellaugh, you ('ll) see: it
Does
and it
Doesnt
PS: The more ('new') people, the merrier
Shaking the Booty
Love & Tangogogo, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
_________________________________________________________________
Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Sep 25 22:27:06 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Sep 26 23:21:32 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] new subscriber
In-Reply-To: <56e.59a0713.32499268@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C13DB3DA.3226%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Thanks to all who welcomed me. At least I now know how to post! And I got
two responses. The next question is whether other peoples? postings will
get lost somewhere on my computer. Spam filters for instance, can have all
kinds of effects.
On 9/25/06 4:13 PM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Kathy,
>
> Welcome from someone who's also new as of a few days ago. I was expecting this
> list to be more like a web forum so you get lots of emails instead. But it
> does seem to make sense once you get going with it.
>
> Mark
>> Hi ? I?m new as of today. I?m still trying to figure out how the email
>> process works, so this is just a test. I?m looking forward to the group.
>>
>> Best, Kathy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Sep 25 22:41:43 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 23:36:15 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
Message-ID: <bf1.40c2b25.32499907@aol.com>
Hi Kathy,
Tell me more about your connection between music and dialogue as I'm also
exploring this - particularly with collaborative composition in groups.
Mark
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Mon Sep 25 22:51:24 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Tue Sep 26 23:45:52 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
In-Reply-To: <bf1.40c2b25.32499907@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C13DB98C.3228%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Delighted, Mark. Right now, I?m on my way to the gym, but I?m looking
forward to exchanging ideas.
Best, k
On 9/25/06 4:41 PM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Kathy,
>
> Tell me more about your connection between music and dialogue as I'm also
> exploring this - particularly with collaborative composition in groups.
>
> Mark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Sep 25 22:52:44 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Tue Sep 26 23:47:17 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
Message-ID: <bf4.5800496.32499b9c@aol.com>
Fab - look forward to it!!
Delighted, Mark. Right now, I?m on my way to the gym, but I?m looking
forward to exchanging ideas.
Best, k
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Mon Sep 25 23:02:33 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Tue Sep 26 23:57:01 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <C13D9244.95FF%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C13DA009.7345%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Hi Gil,
I have also done facilitation, and also had the experience seeing a group
shift into some sort of shared understanding that impressed all of us. This
is one reason I?ve been exploring Bohm?s thought and joined this group. One
thing that seemed important to the experience of that group was an agreement
to approach each other with great respect. I have wondered, myself, if a
group can come to any kind of shared understanding (not needing agreement)
without this kind of respect.
I remember reading (don?t remember where) that Bohm was asked about some
groups not working, and he said the members need to have done their homework
? i.e. studied and understood the principles behind such dialogue (I would
think in particular the principle of suspension of assumptions).
Lynne
On 9/25/06 7:03 AM, "Gill Wyatt" <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi everyone reading!!
>
> I signed up to this group a few weeks ago. I've been very curious about how
> this group works and it's really chnaged over the few weeks I have been
> reading mails. I've enjoyed hearing from more people ... as initially it just
> seemed to be the same half a dozen people and it felt pretty hard to join in.
>
> I've enjoyed how some people are saying more about who they are ... and I've
> really liked how you have joined and participated Mark. I liked your music
> too.
>
> I am currently in the middle of a long sabbatical while I transition between
> being a psychotherapist and group facilitator into whatever next I am going to
> do. I sent an email a couple of weeks ago that fell between the pages of this
> dialogue ... nobody responded and of course as a result I don't even know if
> anybody read it ...
>
> But I guess in reading this mail of your's Don and reading through a whole
> load of mail as I have been away for a few days ... I am again reminded by
> what I wrote then ... and the question that remains for me ... What brings
> about a group working together, being able to improvise and co-creative
> together as opposed to what can feel to me as meaningless chaos where people
> chose to be rude and cruel to each other? When can conflict lead to 'true'
> dialogue and when does it destroy the possibility of dialogue?
>
> Hi Pat and Rodger,
>
> I have worked with groups as a facilitator for nearly 20 years in differing
> capacities. For about the last 10 years I became aware of how some groups came
> into harmony through the spoken word ... so that by listening to each others
> differences, leaning into what was expressed to unearth the assumptions and by
> letting patterns and connections unfold there was what I have come to call a
> 'holonic shift'. Its as if the group takes up a particular thread and
> gradually each person joins the harmonious (although at times there will be
> conflict and strong disagreement) unfolding of a creative shared meaning. It
> stuns me when this happens and I feel such awe.
>
> I wrote my Masters dissertation about this. And I'd agree one person can
> prevent it occurring. I'm curious about the implication that David Bohm's
> presence and the aikido's instructor presence played a part in the groups
> energy being harmonious. I've felt a shyness to look at say the part that the
> facilitaor plays seeing that I have been the facilitator.
>
> When this 'holonic shift' occurs the functioning of the group lifts to a much
> higher level and individuals consciousness seems to be at least temporarily
> lifted and expanded ...
>
> I know i have taken only a part of what you were exploring ...and I am finding
> my feet regarding how this discussion site works ...
>
> Gill
>
> So I guess the point I am making is that I have experienced some groups
> working together with dialogue like jazz musicians. I ran a workshop on
> Saturday on 'Transcending the victim/oppressor dynamic' and I wasn't expecting
> what happened ... it was as if for the whole day we were dialoging and
> improvising, creating a shared understanding and meaning of the focus ... and
> of course that meant that at least for that time we had either suspended or
> transcended the power plays inherent in victim/opppressor stuff!
>
> So with hope ...
>
> Gill
>>
>> From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:58:42 +0100
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
>>
>
>> For a long time I've felt that dialogue ought to be able to do something like
>> jazz musicians do - to improvise collectivity. It seems, though that humans
>> can do all sorts of things together except talk together about stuff that is
>> important to them. It was this recognition along with the fact that talking
>> is what we have to do in order to get along together - in families,
>> businesses, parliaments, etc. - that got us interested in exploring this
>> approach to dialogue in the first place.
>>
>> don
>>
>> ?
>> On 24 Sep 2006, at 22:58, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Franis,
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Thanks for telling me a bit about yourself and it's great to find a bit
>>> about the people whose names I'm starting to recognise as the emails arrive.
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> It took me a while to discover how this list works - I was expecting a
>>> "forum" thing where you get to see what everyone's posted, and this seems a
>>> bit different to that. So I'm going to hang?around and get the sense of how
>>> this all works.
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> I'm fascinated by Bohm and the possibilty of encouraging better dialogues.
>>> I'm a musician and am interested in some of the parallels between dialogue
>>> and (particularly) improvisation - and wondering if we can learn by moving
>>> between the two. I've left my "day job"?of 23 years to explore this a bit
>>> more, as I think people, particularly in groups,?can discover amazing things
>>> when they create stuff together - and?have found that?health professionals,
>>> in particular,?are attracted to this sort of work.?By the way, if you want
>>> to see what I look like and hear a piece of music you are most welcome - I'm
>>> at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFlKx3YPL5I?but I wouldn't recommend it on
>>> a dialup modem!
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> All the best, and thank you for your welcome!
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>> Hey Mark -
>>>> We're pretty forgiving around here, except to Kirsten, (who some members
>>>> are convinced is masquerading as former troublemaker Peter Krauss.)
>>>> Both/either of them had to work a long time to earn it.
>>>>
>>>>> >I guess the gentleness was a bit of humour - not sure if humour is
>>>> allowed in dialogue?!! -
>>>> Yeah, humor is even encouraged, but it's a little difficult for it to
>>>> come across in writing sometimes.
>>>> Kirsten/Peter writes: welcome to that
>>>> white-middle-class-health-insured-truth-seeking... ~
>>>> Don't know about others, but I'm an exception to that. I think that I'm
>>>> volunteer poverty level, well-educated, non-health insured and I've
>>>> worked for myself all my life so I'm not going to get any Social
>>>> Security. (Of course, I probably wouldn't have gotten it either way by
>>>> the time I get old.) Up until six months ago I was, in the legal
>>>> definition, homeless for the previous ten years. It was because I lived
>>>> in my own RV here and there. I may go back to that lifestyle again,
>>>> because it was so low stress. I'm suffering from a disease where the
>>>> treatment is worse than the disease, in my case. I often tease my
>>>> boyfriend that he's middle class - because he doesn't recycle, is
>>>> constantly spending money with the justification of convenience, and has
>>>> ruined his credit. I don't believe in credit, so I'm one of the people my
>>>> age who doesn't owe thousands of dollars that I must keep paying to have
>>>> borrowed. It's a rare item in my house I haven't gotten free - including
>>>> the two free computers I own. I was lucky to buy a three dollar a month
>>>> dialup eons ago, so life is good.
>>>> So - I'll add my welcome the others to you.? Hope you enjoy reading us
>>>> all in some way; many of us are glad to have someone who writes back.
>>>> - Franis
>>>
>>>
>>> ?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Mon Sep 25 23:19:26 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Wed Sep 27 00:14:00 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Message-ID: <c20.53721c8.3249a1de@aol.com>
I think "respect" as that people will notice and be respectful of how power
works in a group - so I see respect as "equal power" or at least, that on
balance, as it ebbs and flows between people, it's equal over a reasonable
period of time. That way, people will be more prepared to take risks and the group
can be creative. I also agree about suspension of assumpions - but I also
think that the group can work with some sort of intention, even a "task" (Bohm
says having a task will undermine the process of dialogue, which, in "On
Dialogue" is 'to discover how thought works'). I personally have a bit more
trouble with not having a task as surely, pragmatically, you'd want to explore
something specific with a group? Without going as far as the group being given a
"problem to solve", which framing can then start to make the group think in
terms of problems, and which can introduce a deficit framing which permeates
the conversation. For some reason I keep coming back to the image of balance
- of power, of the group as a whole. My favourite image of when this process
works well, is of the group sharing an intention, and convening on a raft.
The raft is anchored by a rope by a riverbank. One at a time, the group steps
onto the raft as the meeting starts, and when someone new steps on, everyone
has to shift carefully to keep the thing balanced. So there's a sense of care.
It obviously helps if the external conditions aren't too turbulent (which is
where "solving a problem", particularly to a deadline, could end up with
everyone falling off)! We have to be careful how we enter the group and leave it
(the respect thing again, perhaps). I'd be interested in what you think of
my idea of the dialogic process, anyone. What of that image helps, and what
might you see differently?
Hi Gil,
I have also done facilitation, and also had the experience seeing a group
shift into some sort of shared understanding that impressed all of us. This is
one reason I?ve been exploring Bohm?s thought and joined this group. One
thing that seemed important to the experience of that group was an agreement
to approach each other with great respect. I have wondered, myself, if a
group can come to any kind of shared understanding (not needing agreement)
without this kind of respect.
I remember reading (don?t remember where) that Bohm was asked about some
groups not working, and he said the members need to have done their homework ?
i.e. studied and understood the principles behind such dialogue (I would think
in particular the principle of suspension of assumptions).
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 25 23:21:47 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Wed Sep 27 00:16:14 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F11B094C6E1E17073CFB7CDA8240@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-F11B094C6E1E17073CFB7CDA8240@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E86C4F17-1DA4-4C6D-A075-0360AA675E39@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Well. our server, which is a machine somewhere in Germany, only
allows messages up to 100KB. That was the way it was set up.
You have two choices here. One is to send links to sites that can
handle more, and the other, probably more suited to you, Kirsten,
than to Kathy, would be to take your business back to TT or OD if
either is still functioning. Of course, you could try negotiating a
different approach to this list by asking the others if they would
like to extend this into the sort of free-for-all that ended up in
wrecking it last time around.
Sorry, Kathy. I too like music but Bohm dialogue has always been
primarily about gaining insight into the blocks that make verbal
communication, especially when it is about subjects that are
important to us, so prone to incoherence. Music and the visual arts,
are not such a problem. That's not to say that we can't explore the
differences or why one is easier than the other. Actually, this
sounds like it could be a fascinating and fruitful approach, at least
it is one that I hadn't considered before.
don
On 25 Sep 2006, at 20:39, kirsten schneide wrote:
>
> Dear Gatekeeper Donf
>
>
>> On this list, which lacks any visual component, the only access
>> we have to the symbolic is our use of language, and perhaps
>
>
> You recall that it 's
>
> No body but your self
>
> Who b'locked the access
>
> Of other thinkgs but texts
>
> In this form, that was
>
> (for newcomers) once
>
> Inhabitated by all un'kind
>
> Of creatures ... and
>
> Their play/instruments
>
> (like pictures, paintings, montages, sounds, videos, etc etc)
>
>
>
>
> ..... you, M(e)ister, are some thinkg .... "special" ;-!
>
>
> http://www.magicsoil.com/MSREV2/blinders.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Love & Memories, Kbot
>
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day
> trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/
> 01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From DStulberg at msw-law.com Mon Sep 25 23:24:46 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Wed Sep 27 00:18:38 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D169551B1E@msw2k.msw.local>
I wonder....between the symbolic and the strategic is a fundamental
distinction between the left and the right ?
We could pursue this--it rings some truth. Wish I had the time right
now but don't and I['ll be gone for two weeks. What I will Miss!!! And
my computer will really be loaded. Have fun while I'm gone. D.
-----Original Message-----
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of DesCF
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 6:48 AM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
I remember several years ago a lot of people complained about a
particular manufacturers (I forget who) mobile phone product. There
were big red
symbols that stayed lit and flashed even when the phone was switched
off.
Customers thought that the phones were faulty.
A spokesman for the company on breakfast TV explained that there was
nothing wrong with the phones and that it was just a feature of the
product. The phones had originally been intended for the Italian market
but had been redirected to the UK consequent to a shortage. In Italy,
he explained, a man wears his heart on his sleeve and they like big,
bold, colourful symbols.
I found this interesting because in the UK the two main political
parties, Labour and the Tories, are referred to as the 'party of the
heart' and the 'party of the head' respectively. These descriptions
could easily be likened to the symbolic and the strategic.
A situation has a tendency to express something recognised by all - a
kind of social consensus on definition regardless of anyone's particular
perspective. For example a simple scene situated in an office of an
older man in suit and tie shouting at a younger man dressed only in a
shirt and trousers tends to suggest a senior manager angry at a junior
employee who has erred in some way. The appearence itself is symbolic
of this kind of definition.
Animals can only react at the symbolic level. Their environment
expresses something to them and they react. This is why animals are
easy to fool and trap. They cannot think strategically or at least only
to a very limited extent. Humans by comparison, with the capacity to
envisage their own death, can make plans, devise tactics, and generally
think strategically. In this sense the symbolic tends towards the
simple and the strategic the complex.
Simple symbolic thinking requires a delimited context, i.e. to abstract
something and view it in isolation from its surroundings, and then make
judgements and decisions in relation to it. For example:
The hospital is going to close
Closing hospitals is bad and open hospitals is good People who close
hospitals are bad and people who keep hospitals open are good
It sounds good in a sense but outside the delimited context the hospital
closure might be part of a strategic plan involving the opening of
several new hospitals.
What makes this particularly interesting is that it is commonly held
that the right in politics (in the UK) are better at handling economies
and tackling crime (black economies and illegal forms of business) than
the left. Economies and crime generally involve strategic thinking as
the symbolic proves somewhat inadequate. It's of further interest that
people who have experience of business or crime (often as victims) tend
towards the right. So I am wondering if this distinction between the
symbolic and the strategic is a fundamental distinction between the left
and the right ?
Des
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
From DStulberg at msw-law.com Mon Sep 25 23:32:36 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Wed Sep 27 00:26:26 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D169551B20@msw2k.msw.local>
I don't get guilt or denial as part of dialogue. Where do you see it or
feel it Zoe? I didn't catch aggressive or annoyed just saying something
you felt was there. Something to look at and see what part of dialogue
felt that way to you. I don't really tie dialogue exclusively to Bohm.
Do you? d.
________________________________
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Karilen Mays
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 10:13 PM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
zoe, you sound aggressive or annoyed. i know that's my interpretation.
what position are you defending? or what's the big deal? or why must we
be violent?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:50:47 PM
Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Dorothy - There are currently an estimated 6,5 billion people on
this planet. How many of them do Bohm-Dialogue? And why? (Respectively:
Why not?) Interestingly, you mention guilt, and Kirsten has been talking
at length about denial. From my current studies of this list and what
its members demonstrate, not just very recently, I bet that both of them
help to shed some light into the "why". --- Zoe
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From DStulberg at msw-law.com Mon Sep 25 23:34:48 2006
From: DStulberg at msw-law.com (Dorothy Stulberg)
Date: Wed Sep 27 00:28:39 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky Mediation"
Message-ID: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D169551B21@msw2k.msw.local>
I guess one is best some times and another another time. So both work.
D.
-----Original Message-----
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Franis Engel
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:02 PM
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky Mediation"
yeah - but this mediation technique was so much more effective. I
believe the private advice idea is functional. It's so the other side
can "save face" and not be publically reprimanded in front of the other
side, who can then gloat with satisfaction that they are right.
It's bad enough that you have to be told the other person is right by
the mediator, rather than having the other side get the evil pleasure of
hearing your reaction.
Franis
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 14:05:06 -0400 "Dorothy Stulberg"
<DStulberg@msw-law.com> writes:
> the mediation I like is when everything is worked out between the
> parties rather than separating. Sometimes the separation is necessary
> but to me it is more real when all the ups and downs are on the table.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Karilen
> Mays
> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:59 PM
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
>
> Sounds cool Franis. Thanks.
>
> kari
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:22:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
>
> Cool Dorothy, you're gonna be a great mediator, with Dialogue
> experience!
>
> I've just experienced mediation with a professional. After listening
> to us, she made the observation that I was a more specific and literal
> person, and my apt. manager and her helper at the mediation were more
> generalized, idealistic thinkers. So, no wonder we were having
> problems.
> I wanted to know specific agreement, because I was upset at the
> specific expressions of what the managers were doing that were
> affecting me.
> Whereas they wanted a general agreement, and then carrying it out was
> more unspecified. They said they had knowledge of landlord/tenant law,
> but as the mediation proceeded, it was obvious that they didn't.
>
> So they would accept what she had to say, she did it by explaining the
> percentage of those mediations the office sees that are involved in
> landlord/tenant relationships. This meant what she said carried quite
> a bit more weight than the opinion of any specific lawyer.
>
> She then pointed out, given precedent between us, that this trouble I
> was having with them was a specific application of the discrimination
> law. What they were doing to me was illegal. Of course, she then
> applied the same conventions to me!
>
> The other thing that was interesting is the experience of the private
> caucus idea - where the mediator takes each of us aside privately to
> talk to each of us on behalf of the other.
>
> Her advice to me was that, although I had a verbal agreement in the
> past to the contrary, the law was on their side in being able to
> change the interpretation to this new limitation they want to impose
> on me - so I would be wiser to accept it, because it was my only real
> concession.
>
> When she talked to them privately, I'm sure that she explained to them
> that my demand to see results by a certain date was reasonable; my
> being upset about this came from my previous experiences at being
> completely blown off with their promises that never happened.
>
> It was all a very interesting process. I was very impressed with the
> woman's ability to diffuse outbursts, define what was reasonable, get
> them to agree with her authority of the law, etc.
>
> Franis
>
>
_______________________________________________
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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_______________________________________________
From descf at aol.com Mon Sep 25 23:39:30 2006
From: descf at aol.com (DesCF)
Date: Wed Sep 27 00:34:16 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
In-Reply-To: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D169551B1E@msw2k.msw.local>
References: <0D25D6CD52646E4B992A5CAED007D169551B1E@msw2k.msw.local>
Message-ID: <op.tggegdhjupgxg0@descstar>
I like it because it seems to make some sense and the idea explains a few
things to me
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:24:46 +0100, Dorothy Stulberg
<DStulberg@msw-law.com> wrote:
> I wonder....between the symbolic and the strategic is a fundamental
> distinction between the left and the right ?
> We could pursue this--it rings some truth. Wish I had the time right
> now but don't and I['ll be gone for two weeks. What I will Miss!!! And
> my computer will really be loaded. Have fun while I'm gone. D.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
> [mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of DesCF
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 6:48 AM
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
>
>
> I remember several years ago a lot of people complained about a
> particular manufacturers (I forget who) mobile phone product. There
> were big red
> symbols that stayed lit and flashed even when the phone was switched
> off.
> Customers thought that the phones were faulty.
>
> A spokesman for the company on breakfast TV explained that there was
> nothing wrong with the phones and that it was just a feature of the
> product. The phones had originally been intended for the Italian market
> but had been redirected to the UK consequent to a shortage. In Italy,
> he explained, a man wears his heart on his sleeve and they like big,
> bold, colourful symbols.
>
> I found this interesting because in the UK the two main political
> parties, Labour and the Tories, are referred to as the 'party of the
> heart' and the 'party of the head' respectively. These descriptions
> could easily be likened to the symbolic and the strategic.
>
> A situation has a tendency to express something recognised by all - a
> kind of social consensus on definition regardless of anyone's particular
> perspective. For example a simple scene situated in an office of an
> older man in suit and tie shouting at a younger man dressed only in a
> shirt and trousers tends to suggest a senior manager angry at a junior
> employee who has erred in some way. The appearence itself is symbolic
> of this kind of definition.
>
> Animals can only react at the symbolic level. Their environment
> expresses something to them and they react. This is why animals are
> easy to fool and trap. They cannot think strategically or at least only
> to a very limited extent. Humans by comparison, with the capacity to
> envisage their own death, can make plans, devise tactics, and generally
> think strategically. In this sense the symbolic tends towards the
> simple and the strategic the complex.
>
> Simple symbolic thinking requires a delimited context, i.e. to abstract
> something and view it in isolation from its surroundings, and then make
> judgements and decisions in relation to it. For example:
>
> The hospital is going to close
> Closing hospitals is bad and open hospitals is good People who close
> hospitals are bad and people who keep hospitals open are good
>
> It sounds good in a sense but outside the delimited context the hospital
> closure might be part of a strategic plan involving the opening of
> several new hospitals.
>
> What makes this particularly interesting is that it is commonly held
> that the right in politics (in the UK) are better at handling economies
> and tackling crime (black economies and illegal forms of business) than
> the left. Economies and crime generally involve strategic thinking as
> the symbolic proves somewhat inadequate. It's of further interest that
> people who have experience of business or crime (often as victims) tend
> towards the right. So I am wondering if this distinction between the
> symbolic and the strategic is a fundamental distinction between the left
> and the right ?
>
>
>
>
> Des
>
> --
> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
> _______________________________________________
> info:
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>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
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> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
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>
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>
> _______________________________________________
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From zoechuzero at yahoo.com Mon Sep 25 23:47:14 2006
From: zoechuzero at yahoo.com (Zoe Chu)
Date: Wed Sep 27 00:41:40 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F272AE796EBF9DEF18B7AA7A8240@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060925214714.94122.qmail@web55015.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Hi Kirsten - Keep sending images, please. Nice break. Doing my fried brain good. Different nutrients - welcome. Much appreciated. And be a bit more respectful with Don Factor, if you can help it -- he is, after all, only human -- maybe ;o) --- Zoe
kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://www.talariaenterprises.com/images2/4104a.jpg
Love & Swinger, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Kathryn Arizmendi
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:07:43 -0400
>
>Hello - I'm new, and just getting oriented, but I was enticed and intrigued
>by the reference to music. I am a musician, and working on the Bohm ideas
>of Implicated and Explicate order, pattern interrelationships of structure
>and creativity in the context of composition and improvisation (not
>restricted to jazz). Was particularly impressed with "On Creativity". I'm
>looking forward to broadening my understanding of that in particular, and
>Bohm in general.
>
>All the best, Kathy
>
>
>On 9/25/06 12:54 PM, "kirsten schneide"
>wrote:
>
> >
> > Dear Mark ~
> >
> > The image of dialog as a "free"way doesnt really get me going/far.
> >
> > I rather liken it with:
> >
> > http://www.skyways.org/towns/Sabetha/images/Playground%207.jpg
> >
> > http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue9912/images/ml04.jpg
> >
> > What do you thinkg?
> >
> > PS: Good to have some musician here on board (of fools)... can you
>please
> > send some clips
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Love & Strings, Kirsten
> >
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com a
> >> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Be, with & Gentle, me
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 05:54:08 EDT
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Kirsten,
> >>
> >> When I enter a new group I'm always conscious of the power
>relationships -
> >> and by entering there's some disruption because it becomes a new group.
>So
> >> I
> >> guess I mean tricky in the sense that joining a highway (motorway) is -
>you
> >> have to gauge what's happening and what speed everyone's going and
>join in
> >> gently without disrupting the traffic and causing an accident. Perhaps
> >> that's my
> >> construction but I find it a helpful one. Once I've joined and get a
>sense
> >> of
> >> who's doing what and which drivers might do surprising things, I feel
>more
> >> confident that I can cope with it.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> Dear Mark ~
> >>
> >> Where does that thinkg
> >>
> >> Trick y
> >>
> >> Come from?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> .................."Tricky"??
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> **********************
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The next generation of Search?say hello!
> >
>http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTA>
>G
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
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_______________________________________________
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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From w at david-bohm.net Mon Sep 25 23:49:11 2006
From: w at david-bohm.net (william)
Date: Wed Sep 27 00:43:39 2006
Subject: AW: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <C13DA009.7345%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <0ML21M-1GRyKB2o8E-0002fw@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
Lynne Tolk
>
One thing that seemed important to the experience of
>that group was an agreement to approach each other with
>great respect. ?I have wondered, myself, if a group can
>come to any kind of shared understanding (not needing
>agreement) without this kind of respect.
But agreeing to approach each other with respect sounds a bit contrived to
me. Is respect a question of agreement? Can you decide to have respect? Is
it that superficial? It sounds like putting the cart before the horse, so to
speak. Respect may (or may not) come afterwards, but how can you start with
it (without pretending)?
>I remember reading (don?t remember where) that Bohm was
>asked about some groups not working, and he said the
>members need to have done their homework ? i.e. studied
>and understood the principles behind such dialogue (I
>would think in particular the principle of suspension
>of assumptions).
Yes, but again, you can turn that into a theory too. Are you now going to
study the principles behind dialogue, the principle of suspension of
assumptions? This "homework" is not an intellectual exercise; it's something
else. I hope you realize it is going to change what you are. You'll never be
the same again...
william