From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Thu Dec 27 00:04:46 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Dec 27 00:12:50 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
In-Reply-To: <004201c84812$335fd9b0$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com><005b01c847df$71bf4a20$b5c16018@DL01><AF42A86D-C8B2-4B91-ACB5-68CB3980E454@dc.rr.com><012901c847ef$b1d807e0$b5c16018@DL01><EEE00A24-5890-4A64-BD34-8FFDF49EE895@dc.rr.com><016701c847f7$11885260$b5c16018@DL01><00bb01c847f8$c63b0f80$5377480c@HOME><01ad01c847f9$ff6c8530$b5c16018@DL01><6982D067-FFA9-49FF-86BE-7B13A3AADFFC@dc.rr.com><01fe01c84800$29db7ff0$b5c16018@DL01><F0C40F84-7F59-4BE9-8E38-9095322CCBE4@dc.rr.com><022801c84801$d9358670$b5c16018@DL01>
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Message-ID: <3E97258F-FB66-4B41-AD8E-05F30EAB1E2A@dc.rr.com>
The so-called emptiness of space is full. Zero is a mathematical
concept that allows certain kinds of calculations to be made that
cannot be made without it. So it has being. It does not represent non-
being or the non-being of a number. A minus sign might do better for
that. But remember, If we are thinking Bohmthought, meaning IS being.
Anything you might imagine or think of has being-meaning as a result
of your imagining it or thinking of it. Imagination is a kind of
thought. And thought is active. it effects the totality of which it
is a part. Thought is not just ephemeral. It is causal. It IS.
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Don Lay wrote:
> ... what would non-being look like? Or feel like? of BE like" ... df
>
> DB, somewhere, points out that we somehow see the emptiness of
> space between planets.
>
> What does a zero or the concept of a zero look like? What about
> using a zero to stand for the not being of a number, etc. -- dl
>
>
>
> From: donald factor
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 5:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam
> andaloneness
>
> Actually, I could imagine trying it, but since I would have to have
> an image of non-being
> it wouldn't work, would it? I mean, what would non-being look like?
> Or feel like? of BE like"
>
> don
>
> On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:56 PM, Don Lay wrote:
>
>> Can you then imagine using Parmenides' notion of non being to
>> learn? -- dl
>>
>>
>> From: donald factor
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam
>> andaloneness
>>
>> Yes, it is called ambition or the desire to learn.
>>
>> don
>>
>> On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Don Lay wrote:
>>
>>> Can you also imagine yourself being what your self is not?
>>>
>>> Have you never done that?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: donald factor
>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was:
>>> spam andaloneness
>>>
>>> Why not? I can imagine Don Lay and i would not be surprised if I
>>> met him.
>>>
>>> don
>>>
>>> On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Don Lay wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, but one can imagine a tree and also find a tree. That's
>>>> not at all like the imagining of one's identity. Is it? -- dl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Susan Clemons
>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:51 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was:
>>>> spam andaloneness
>>>>
>>>> How does imagined keep something from being real? Everything is
>>>> imagined.
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Don Lay
>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 12:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was:
>>>> spam andaloneness
>>>>
>>>> Then how speak of one's imagined identity unfolding and
>>>> enfolding? Is the purely imagined to be denied? -- dl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: donald factor
>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was:
>>>> spam andaloneness
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 26, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Don Lay wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How might non being be described using enfold/unfold? -- dl
>>>>
>>>> It can't. And if one tries then one is bringing something into
>>>> being which contradicts the purpose of trying.
>>>>
>>>> don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Thu Dec 27 00:13:15 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Dec 27 00:21:17 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
In-Reply-To: <008d01c84812$9b77f3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com><005b01c847df$71bf4a20$b5c16018@DL01><AF42A86D-C8B2-4B91-ACB5-68CB3980E454@dc.rr.com><012901c847ef$b1d807e0$b5c16018@DL01><EEE00A24-5890-4A64-BD34-8FFDF49EE895@dc.rr.com><016701c847f7$11885260$b5c16018@DL01><B3C4550D-1B16-4E80-B846-CFB4FBEBC2E2@dc.rr.com><01c101c847fa$46b78ed0$b5c16018@DL01><E53033A6-A338-4A75-B046-468D52B21E71@dc.rr.com><021201c84801$38aae470$b5c16018@DL01>
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<008d01c84812$9b77f3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <BCA520AF-0B00-455F-96CA-0CF06DC490CA@dc.rr.com>
Maybe it means that in dia logos, reason and meaning have more value
and meaning than the personal identity. -
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Don Lay wrote:
> Maybe it means that in dia logos, reason and meaning have more
> value and meaning than the personal identity. -- dl
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From irenedarcy at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 00:53:35 2007
From: irenedarcy at gmail.com (Irene Darcy)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:01:38 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking and tas
In-Reply-To: <00c001c847e2$5039b7c0$b5c16018@DL01>
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com>
<00c001c847e2$5039b7c0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <c47283890712261553u77a1aaa4t69af5269140565f9@mail.gmail.com>
KI: What might it be like to be in conscious contact with the whole
instead of *just* acting and pretending the *identity* system limited to the
socio-economic reality?
Don, I like this very much. I know you want to explore it more. Me, too, a
little later. I'm still unearthing the patterns in principles of conflict
resolution in music, but once the musician masters these principles, which
are the essence of harmony, and which don't seem to be man-made laws after
all, it seems to open the gates to conscious contact with the whole. Or
what has been called 'inspiration', 'soul', et al.
Gotta go exercise the other parts of my body now, the brain's begging for
oxygen.
On Dec 26, 2007 12:11 PM, Don Lay <donlay@knology.net> wrote:
> "Philosophy did not spring from myth. It arises solely from thinking and
> in thinking. But thinking is the thinking of Being. Thinking does not
> originate: it is, when Being presences." ... Heidegger, Early Greek
> Thinking, P 40.
>
>
>
>
>
> This segment in Heidegger's "The Anaximander Fragment" may suggest the
> idea that *thinking* is not simply a property of man, the *personal
> identity*. The question occurs if it can be used to develop Bohm's ideas
> expressed in *OB* regarding the brain as possibly functioning like a radio
> crystal.
>
>
>
> That is, think of the brain somehow being in "conscious contact" with the
> *indivisible whole* to which it belongs such that it is sensitive to what
> the whole *intends*. This might be one way of beginning to explore *
> meaning* without having to speak of the *imaginary, identified, fixed and
> and reified persona *which is necessary for social reality but not for
> speaking of *Spiritual actuality*.
>
>
>
> What might it be like to be in conscious contact with the whole instead of
> *just* acting and pretending the *identity* system limited to the
> socio-economic reality? -- dl
>
>
>
> http://www.knology.net/~donlay/ <http://www.knology.net/%7Edonlay/>
>
>
> <http://www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue>
>
>
--
Irene
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Thu Dec 27 01:05:58 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:14:04 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking and tas
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com><00c001c847e2$5039b7c0$b5c16018@DL01><00cf01c847e3$541093e0$b5c16018@DL01><007501c847f7$f0720e80$5377480c@HOME><018a01c847f9$81c06e80$b5c16018@DL01><010701c847fa$47635f30$5377480c@HOME>
<E6D5A15A-7589-46F6-9A42-50BC303196FB@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c8481c$4383e2a0$5377480c@HOME>
Shhhhhhhhhh...........We're not supposed to tell anyone.
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking and tas
Good, that helps fill out my picture, but then it seems that you are me and possibly vice versa
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Susan Clemons wrote:
If meaning is being as Bohm suggests then the origin of meaning or meant is being. So in that sense any use of language has it's own beingness in truth but it is not "a" truth. In that sense truth and meaning are what we live/speak/imagine forth in our daily experience.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking and tas
I don't see how quantum discoveries can suggest any such thing. As far as I can tell language is a system for thinking and being in the world. It is not meant ... . -- Susan
highlight added
What's the nature of meant, meaning? What meant, means ..., that is, what's the origin of meaning? How might mean or meaning relate to the universe? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking and tas
I don't see how quantum discoveries can suggest any such thing. As far as I can tell language is a system for thinking and being in the world. It is not meant to be a "truth" about anything. Any fault would lie in interpreting our experiences as some kind of absolute truth.
Susan
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Thu Dec 27 01:10:28 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:18:34 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com><005b01c847df$71bf4a20$b5c16018@DL01><AF42A86D-C8B2-4B91-ACB5-68CB3980E454@dc.rr.com><012901c847ef$b1d807e0$b5c16018@DL01><EEE00A24-5890-4A64-BD34-8FFDF49EE895@dc.rr.com><016701c847f7$11885260$b5c16018@DL01><00bb01c847f8$c63b0f80$5377480c@HOME><01ad01c847f9$ff6c8530$b5c16018@DL01><6982D067-FFA9-49FF-86BE-7B13A3AADFFC@dc.rr.com><01fe01c84800$29db7ff0$b5c16018@DL01><F0C40F84-7F59-4BE9-8E38-9095322CCBE4@dc.rr.com>
<023201c84802$327063e0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <017801c8481c$e404e7b0$5377480c@HOME>
No, that's something else.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Is that what it is called when one plays a role, acts and pretends being something he is not for the endorphin pleasure? -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Yes, it is called ambition or the desire to learn.
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Can you also imagine yourself being what your self is not?
Have you never done that?
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Why not? I can imagine Don Lay and i would not be surprised if I met him.
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Yes, but one can imagine a tree and also find a tree. That's not at all like the imagining of one's identity. Is it? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
How does imagined keep something from being real? Everything is imagined.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Then how speak of one's imagined identity unfolding and enfolding? Is the purely imagined to be denied? -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
On Dec 26, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Don Lay wrote:
How might non being be described using enfold/unfold? -- dl
It can't. And if one tries then one is bringing something into being which contradicts the purpose of trying.
don
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Thu Dec 27 01:13:46 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:21:50 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com><005b01c847df$71bf4a20$b5c16018@DL01><AF42A86D-C8B2-4B91-ACB5-68CB3980E454@dc.rr.com><012901c847ef$b1d807e0$b5c16018@DL01><EEE00A24-5890-4A64-BD34-8FFDF49EE895@dc.rr.com><016701c847f7$11885260$b5c16018@DL01><B3C4550D-1B16-4E80-B846-CFB4FBEBC2E2@dc.rr.com><01c101c847fa$46b78ed0$b5c16018@DL01><E53033A6-A338-4A75-B046-468D52B21E71@dc.rr.com><021201c84801$38aae470$b5c16018@DL01><26C64560-8878-4404-B821-D0FC134D3058@dc.rr.com>
<008d01c84812$9b77f3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
Message-ID: <01a501c8481d$59e7e400$5377480c@HOME>
duh!
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Maybe it means that in dia logos, reason and meaning have more value and meaning than the personal identity. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Does this mean that I have imagined being you, or you have imagined being me?
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:52 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Has it? This is a term that I have never run across, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. Relative non being would have to imply at least a bit of being wouldn't it? -- dl
orignial below:
Has it? This is a term that I have never run across, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. Relative non being would have to imply at least a bit of being wouldn't it?
don
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From Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net Thu Dec 27 01:14:54 2007
From: Susan.Joy at worldnet.att.net (Susan Clemons)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:22:59 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com><005b01c847df$71bf4a20$b5c16018@DL01><AF42A86D-C8B2-4B91-ACB5-68CB3980E454@dc.rr.com><012901c847ef$b1d807e0$b5c16018@DL01><EEE00A24-5890-4A64-BD34-8FFDF49EE895@dc.rr.com><016701c847f7$11885260$b5c16018@DL01><00bb01c847f8$c63b0f80$5377480c@HOME><01ad01c847f9$ff6c8530$b5c16018@DL01><6982D067-FFA9-49FF-86BE-7B13A3AADFFC@dc.rr.com><01fe01c84800$29db7ff0$b5c16018@DL01><F0C40F84-7F59-4BE9-8E38-9095322CCBE4@dc.rr.com><022801c84801$d9358670$b5c16018@DL01><3F103B84-4370-4ED7-846C-496C54EFCDAB@dc.rr.com><004201c84812$335fd9b0$b5c16018@DL01>
<3E97258F-FB66-4B41-AD8E-05F30EAB1E2A@dc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <01b401c8481d$82404280$5377480c@HOME>
well said don!
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
The so-called emptiness of space is full. Zero is a mathematical concept that allows certain kinds of calculations to be made that cannot be made without it. So it has being. It does not represent non-being or the non-being of a number. A minus sign might do better for that. But remember, If we are thinking Bohmthought, meaning IS being. Anything you might imagine or think of has being-meaning as a result of your imagining it or thinking of it. Imagination is a kind of thought. And thought is active. it effects the totality of which it is a part. Thought is not just ephemeral. It is causal. It IS.
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 2:53 PM, Don Lay wrote:
... what would non-being look like? Or feel like? of BE like" ... df
DB, somewhere, points out that we somehow see the emptiness of space between planets.
What does a zero or the concept of a zero look like? What about using a zero to stand for the not being of a number, etc. -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Actually, I could imagine trying it, but since I would have to have an image of non-being
it wouldn't work, would it? I mean, what would non-being look like? Or feel like? of BE like"
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:56 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Can you then imagine using Parmenides' notion of non being to learn? -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Yes, it is called ambition or the desire to learn.
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:44 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Can you also imagine yourself being what your self is not?
Have you never done that?
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Why not? I can imagine Don Lay and i would not be surprised if I met him.
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:00 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Yes, but one can imagine a tree and also find a tree. That's not at all like the imagining of one's identity. Is it? -- dl
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
How does imagined keep something from being real? Everything is imagined.
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Then how speak of one's imagined identity unfolding and enfolding? Is the purely imagined to be denied? -- dl
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
On Dec 26, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Don Lay wrote:
How might non being be described using enfold/unfold? -- dl
It can't. And if one tries then one is bringing something into being which contradicts the purpose of trying.
don
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From DFACTOR at dc.rr.com Thu Dec 27 01:16:53 2007
From: DFACTOR at dc.rr.com (donald factor)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:24:57 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking and tas
In-Reply-To: <014a01c8481c$4383e2a0$5377480c@HOME>
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com><00c001c847e2$5039b7c0$b5c16018@DL01><00cf01c847e3$541093e0$b5c16018@DL01><007501c847f7$f0720e80$5377480c@HOME><018a01c847f9$81c06e80$b5c16018@DL01><010701c847fa$47635f30$5377480c@HOME>
<E6D5A15A-7589-46F6-9A42-50BC303196FB@dc.rr.com>
<014a01c8481c$4383e2a0$5377480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <D1571B1D-3138-4EB8-B2DB-80813306A0CE@dc.rr.com>
Damn! I forgot.
Susan
On Dec 26, 2007, at 4:05 PM, Susan Clemons wrote:
> Shhhhhhhhhh...........We're not supposed to tell anyone.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: donald factor
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking
> and tas
>
> Good, that helps fill out my picture, but then it seems that you
> are me and possibly vice versa
> don
> On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:02 PM, Susan Clemons wrote:
>
>> If meaning is being as Bohm suggests then the origin of meaning or
>> meant is being. So in that sense any use of language has it's own
>> beingness in truth but it is not "a" truth. In that sense truth
>> and meaning are what we live/speak/imagine forth in our daily
>> experience.
>>
>> Susan
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Don Lay
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 12:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking
>> and tas
>>
>> I don't see how quantum discoveries can suggest any such thing.
>> As far as I can tell language is a system for thinking and being
>> in the world. It is not meant ... . -- Susan
>> highlight added
>>
>> What's the nature of meant, meaning? What meant, means ..., that
>> is, what's the origin of meaning? How might mean or meaning
>> relate to the universe? -- dl
>>
>> From: Susan Clemons
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought, Thinking
>> and tas
>>
>> I don't see how quantum discoveries can suggest any such thing.
>> As far as I can tell language is a system for thinking and being
>> in the world. It is not meant to be a "truth" about anything.
>> Any fault would lie in interpreting our experiences as some kind
>> of absolute truth.
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From donlay at knology.net Thu Dec 27 01:21:19 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:29:24 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
References: <20071226.105310.3184.281.ae.dropper@juno.com><005b01c847df$71bf4a20$b5c16018@DL01><AF42A86D-C8B2-4B91-ACB5-68CB3980E454@dc.rr.com><012901c847ef$b1d807e0$b5c16018@DL01><EEE00A24-5890-4A64-BD34-8FFDF49EE895@dc.rr.com><016701c847f7$11885260$b5c16018@DL01><B3C4550D-1B16-4E80-B846-CFB4FBEBC2E2@dc.rr.com><01c101c847fa$46b78ed0$b5c16018@DL01><E53033A6-A338-4A75-B046-468D52B21E71@dc.rr.com><021201c84801$38aae470$b5c16018@DL01><26C64560-8878-4404-B821-D0FC134D3058@dc.rr.com><008d01c84812$9b77f3c0$b5c16018@DL01>
<01a501c8481d$59e7e400$5377480c@HOME>
Message-ID: <00d301c8481e$676721d0$b5c16018@DL01>
duh! -- Susan
Very well said. Fitting.
From: Susan Clemons
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
duh!
Susan
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Lay
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Maybe it means that in dia logos, reason and meaning have more value and meaning than the personal identity. -- dl
http://www.knology.net/~donlay/
----- Original Message -----
From: donald factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Does this mean that I have imagined being you, or you have imagined being me?
don
On Dec 26, 2007, at 12:52 PM, Don Lay wrote:
Has it? This is a term that I have never run across, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. Relative non being would have to imply at least a bit of being wouldn't it? -- dl
orignial below:
Has it? This is a term that I have never run across, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. Relative non being would have to imply at least a bit of being wouldn't it?
don
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 01:22:06 2007
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:30:08 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought
Message-ID: <57438.32656.qm@web52901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Pretty chilly here too. Wind just seems like a waste lately, and I can't get over some subtle (and at times obvious) bitterness at something un-specific. A mindless movie may be called for.
from yesterday:
talking and laughing
not feeling very celebratory
energy is tense and electric
heart large and pulsating
knowing there is nothing to say
nothing to do
gathering 'round the table with
children of relatives of friends
i need a vacation
-kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Lay <donlay@knology.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:55:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Speaking of which, it's chilly here and I'm off for a glass of wind and dinner.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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From donlay at knology.net Thu Dec 27 01:39:06 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Thu Dec 27 01:47:12 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought
References: <57438.32656.qm@web52901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00e201c84820$e37a3710$b5c16018@DL01>
Maybe on a chilly day, even a cold day, poetry opens up that depth which warms the soul. -- dl
From: Karilen Mays
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought
Pretty chilly here too. Wind just seems like a waste lately, and I can't get over some subtle (and at times obvious) bitterness at something un-specific. A mindless movie may be called for.
from yesterday:
talking and laughing
not feeling very celebratory
energy is tense and electric
heart large and pulsating
knowing there is nothing to say
nothing to do
gathering 'round the table with
children of relatives of friends
i need a vacation
-kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Lay <donlay@knology.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:55:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam andaloneness
Speaking of which, it's chilly here and I'm off for a glass of wind and dinner.
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From benschcoe at hotmail.com Thu Dec 27 02:26:50 2007
From: benschcoe at hotmail.com (Regina Bensch-Coe)
Date: Thu Dec 27 02:34:53 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
Message-ID: <BLU109-W5159A862F1D8CFA0F024C1B7540@phx.gbl>
Jeff,
To me, the author?s statement about the implicate order seemed incoherent. That is why I asked the question. I am grateful for the many responses, especially the dialogue between you and William. The interesting thing about asking a question is that sometimes responses emerge from unexpected places. While I was going through my old files I came across Fred Alan Wolf notes from a seminar I attended last April. It?s been 9 months since I read the notes ? now they seem to hold new meaning. I will post the notes on a separate thread.
By the way, welcome!
Regina
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:30:24 +0700
> From: jeff@siit.tu.ac.th
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
>
> Hi,
>
> I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in
> the implicate order.
>
> If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate order' I
> think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
> explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are implicated). So
> the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
> causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
> this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
> implicate order.
>
> I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
>
> Jeff
> >
> > In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> > 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> > matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for
> > ?there?.)
> >
> > In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,
> > matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
> >
> > Regina
> >
> >
> > ??
> >
>
>
> info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007
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From benschcoe at hotmail.com Thu Dec 27 02:37:18 2007
From: benschcoe at hotmail.com (Regina Bensch-Coe)
Date: Thu Dec 27 02:45:22 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fred Alan Wolf
Message-ID: <BLU109-W369D6363184A569B060D6EB7540@phx.gbl>
Last April, I attended a two-day seminar by Fred Alan Wolf aka Dr. Quantum. Don?t remember the exact title of the program but it was something like ?Spirituality through Quantum Physics?. Some people found Wolf?s presentation (on the Realm and Unrealm) to be very informative and interesting; other?s were turned off. After each break Wolf questioned why some people did not return; the group of about 200 got smaller and smaller. Some found Wolf to be arrogant and authoritative. One person, a scientist who teaches at Harvard University said, ?I love the science part, but I don?t like his attitude. If he is suppose to be a model of spirituality, then I don?t want to be like him.?
In all fairness, Wolf worked very hard ? with cartoons, loud music from the 60?s & 70?s, loud outbursts ? to try make something very complex understandable. Yet, at times when people asked him questions, he seemed frustrated. This was especially so when someone asked: ?What does this have to do with spirituality??
I sense that Wolf (when he?s not acting or pretending) is really a compassionate, caring individual. There were moments when this came through.
When the very last question was asked, Wolf looked a little stoned-faced. The question was: ?Is the Unrealm the same as David Bohm?s Implicate Order?? He looked my way and said softly, ?Yes.? Shortly after six people came over and wanted to know more about Bohm.
For those of you who decide to read the notes, you could easily replace the word ?realm? for ?explicate? and ?unrealm? for implicate?. For most of the presentation, this connection was not clarified for me. When I spoke to Wolf during the break about Bohm, he did not mention any connection. However, he did say that he worked at the University of California with Bohm and that their offices were near each other.
The following notes ? without the cartoons, loud outbursts, loud music, and unfortunately, without the charts ? holds meaning. The transcription is not perfect; I did not catch everything ? some sections make no sense without the charts. I am going to try to attach the notes from both days. If it bounces back, I will resend it in two or more parts.
Regina
????????????????????????????????????????
Fred Alan Wolf notes
Saturday, April 22, 2006
realm of the unrealm;
map made of the world that allowed us to survive and what appears to be a hostile environment
What you believe is not of interest; what is of interest is your experiences; awaken to your experiences; from that experience that real learning takes place
quantum physics is the most sophisticated, most robust, and the most childlike, and simplest because it reverts back to the that childlike in the most simple way.
What masks it is the jargon to proves it therefore what get communicated is only real smart sciences can understand quantum physics
to experience the world differently
doing it right now;
what ever your doing is an act; your ego has nothing to do with it
after the thought, speaks the world (ego)
this is just a act; big mystery here; to be in the mystery gets you prize
approach all of it from a source of mystery; you can learn to change your act. it is what life totally a delight; build into the mystery is this wonderful thing called drama; we are all queens and kings;
story, narrative, romance, conflict (god-technology produced show and you are the actor)
we have all done it; the perfection is in the imperfection; the probability of distribution of the possibilities.
We can play anything; many get away with it. Whatever it is it is your act.
Quantum physics has something to say about it.
A simple experiment
Down the Realm
What does this with anything?? double slit experiment
?????
An experiment with electrons
< biprism (see chart)
electrons: little tiny particles, no one knows how big a electron is, they made spots; later, discovered? it is a wave
Father = spot
Son = wave
two possibilities; two choices; you can choose to observe each electron as it travels on a path or not (watch how it travels or doesn?t watch how it travel
watch/observer = a normal probability pattern; this describes so much life;
bell shape curve = average number of times; the electrons travel through and make spots; electron goes through the double slit thing (a prism) ; this dot pattern tell us it is traveling one way or another.
But if you don?t observe which way the electron goes, the unrealm begins to show up; when we let the electron go where we don?t know whether it is going to go; two becomes one.
gets so many holes; more holes than stuff that holds the whole; infinite number of possibilities as long as we are not looking. anything that is up has a possibility of being down here.
not observing; not seeing;
have to have an expectation to know what your looking for
without expectation ? do not know what your
if your not observing, the electron takes every possible path
atom:
electrons are each atom; trips for the electron to master diff guises for doing its thing; when it does its thing you are experiencing energy
two electrons and two choices
the electron travels along two pathways
all we observe is particle things, but we infer that they are waves (paths are waves)
the wavey stuff is important ? the unrealm (that where the waviness is; where the electron is when it is not being observed
in the unrealm there is a waviness; and everything in the universe has a waviness; the waviness of the unrealm; waves go up and come down;
two waves crossing over and when the waves are superposition (one on top of the other) When you add them together you get nothing; this is where you get nothing it is called an interference pattern; possibilities in the unrealm can exist and amount to another; if there is a in phase
yoga of time travel;
Nothing ? the pattern tells us each electron interferes with itself? there is nothing
It looks like a series of spikes
one electron ? two choices: to observe or not observe;
interference pattern
look down and up at the electron; double split experiment; cloud I sour knowledge of the electron.
electron as a ball going to two slits.
electron arriving at various places; what would I observed; what do you see when you look on the screen you see only see one possibility you see only one possibility eventually build up a pattern of hits.
electrons are detected one by one as particles ?
electron it is interfering with itself, this is impossible; but if they are in the unrealm
wave is the way the electron behaves when your not observing, it is a beam like a wave
particle is the way the electron behaves when observed
pathway for the waves to travel; to trace a ; the electron does not go to point
we only understand interference when we look at different places.
Between beginning and end; how did it get there (let?s there is nothing no screen, no prism ?
draw lines with start and end how do you get there.
the unrealm; realm
everything is in the unrealm when it is not observed;
after all done, I have made a manifestation of what I have seen; looking at a pattern, a memory on a chip, that is pretty stable.
were not entering and exiting all time; the unrealm is like a vacuum; you cannot make a mechanical model of this ? that picture will encumber anything we understand; when observation takes place, things just pop into existence
Ask if there is a model for it?
the fact those waves become an electron ? that is the mystery
we do not observe how it travels; if you observe where the electron goes;
the final screen is the end of the experiment
it what happens in between is what we are interested in.
???
observation creates reality
if we don?t observe, this happens (see figure)
what is meant by observing
Looking at a videotape after the event would not count.
Looking at it while it happening, that would count.
- - - - -
Until you hear it, it isn?t there.
The tape observed.
Until it is an observed record it is the unrealm.
the unrealm has no energy; just possibility
How can one electron be in two places at one time?
That is a mystery.
Baseball:
realistist/materialist = I call it as it are: strike or ball
humanist/psychist = I calls it as I sees them
yogi = they ain?t nothing until I calls them
by your call, you reality is created
the reality is constructed.
The vanishing cube: metaphor for the unrealm
Do you agree that it is a cube?
A see through cube
only see one: logical thinking; no artistic abilities
seen leaping: visual metaphor for quantum leap; jump what could be
observation creates reality;
screen pointer = misguided
head pointer = this guy is crazy
everything goes on in your head, not out here
it betrays itself by jumping, quantum leaping
you have been taught color are light waves
in physics there is principle of complimentary; complimentary ways of observing thing
look one way gets one thing; look another way you get something else
two way ? ? complimentary is modern tool of magician see the world; shamans use the complimentary position; shaman perform something that he has magical power; the healer can?t do anything until you heal your self.
he is already healed because you believe in me.
you allow the process to take place.
belief structure of the person that heals
you are an observer/creator experience
This is your role as an observer/creator you bring all experience into existence!
Right now have excessive birth and death; birth into unrealm, death of the unrealm.
prolonging in the unrealm; most of the time in the realm (he likes to be in the realm)
There is power to change reality from the unrealm. Do things in the realm, but the power comes from the unrealm. always working in the materialist realm, you are pushing things around, but you are not creating anything. Mozart composed out of the unrealm. Their guru taught them how to compose out of the unrealm.
Opening the third eye.
Time and the theory of relativity
Sneaking the observer in the unrealm.
The choose mechanism; you are choosing reality.
before consciousness
two possibilities looking down at the cube; or up at the cube. Two possibilities coexisting as one
with consciousness the possibilities separate into one or the other this is still in the unrealm
from the uncreated comes the created
the observer sees one reality or another but not other
or you enter parallel universes
in two parallel universes; you split into one and the other the observer see only one reality; the observer is in two universes when they overlap you see the blue
when you see a jump, you are seeing universities.
the parallel universe theory, it allows overlap
the paper bag face
mask of the other; you bring with you a picture of an image and take it with you where ever you go
you are the other
you tell everyone how they should behave because of the script you have created
understand the process and you are on your way of not being trapped by the process (George Bush is trapped by the process)
See it from the unborn, uninformed, unoriginated ? drama is created by willing or unwilling participants
Marilyn Monroe: we created Marilyn Monroe; she made the image of we created from our unborm, uninformed ? I bought you Marilyn Monroe; I paid for you as Marilyn Monroe The I is the collective mind. The image Hollywood did not make the illusion; we made the illusion
We are the reality creators; we created every Hollywood film, political system, we are the creator the author of it all the source of it all; if you don?t understand it then you are a victim of it
If you keep believing that you are just material substance that gives form to substance ??? you buy that act you are easily manipulated. You are the fools, you buy into things.
If you get wise then you dissipate that structure and you author it and take responsibility for it.
Can you tell me what is spiritual about this? This is a gift from the point of view of the unformed un-originated. I am the reality created.
??
A secret of the clouds
past ? future
mind = anything in the future is the result of the past
most people believe this //this is only (where time come in) 50% of the time
the future creates the past
How can you say the future affects the present
you say the past has not been observed
the future has not been observed; can an observed that will take place can affect me right now!!
past generates future
future generates past
time is two way street
agreement about that being right ? ? ?
I might be wrong, but a wristwatch is never wrong
My skin and muscle is 60+ years, but something inside never ages. What you are made (your essence is) is cloud of possibilities.
These clouds arise from the future past present. These possibility clouds are in here and out there.
The secret of time
Time is sexy. The feeling of sex is a message coming from the future. What is the call that makes the arousal feeling arise. The call is coming from the future (future progeny calling you on the telephone of the body. There is an investment on this drama that the future is made. When you are in the unborn, etc you are outside space and time, matter and energy. Body is a receptor; the messages is coming. It is asking you to produce another human being. When cloning, there will be another call. Passion comes from love of drama; sex comes from that drama.
consider the possibility that memories work both ways, you can remember the future, but you forgot how to do that
The future sends information back to the present (rebound)
the past sends information to the present
space beyond time to see how physicists work in that space
how to use our mind to time travel; time travel is nothing more than the movement from the realm into the unrealm
nature of time in your own brain and nervous system brain has a time window (it has a little bit of past, future, and what you think is the present, and a little bit of time)
The Yoga of Time Travel
how, why, what it means to escape the matrix of time
science of transformation (alchemy)
Matter into feeling
The Dreaming Universe
The Spiritual Universe
Taking the Quantum Leap
Cycles and Dreamtime
Dreamtime was a term coined by two anthropologists and johnt and spencer and 1899; a concept to was great spirit dreaming. More than the time you spend when your sleeping. Aborigines wander and gathers; wander/gathers situation; they saw themselves as part of the land. Land like air is not to be owned. they see the land as a dreaming spirit. The dream is the story of the evolution. dream drama: fire, water, send dream spirits into the land.
if we imagine time as a line: past present future
for dreamtime: time is in a hoop
When spark enters into the material world, we know that
experiencing beyond space time
The question of how big space is
how long time is
questions are encapsulated in the language structure itself.
we can bind space; space is not in the concept of being bound
time does not have beginning and end; an interval has a beginning and end
Psychological space-time; how we create time in our mind
she is falling asleep; space-time creation;
we are able to see a time window; we see the beginning and end of both dots and we fill in what is missing.
two stories: one say you don?t know it until after the fact
the other seeing before
baseball: quantum game; superhuman feat to play baseball; it is clearly impossible
So where is my mind
Where is your mind your highness and when is your mind here
When a sensation normally occurs.
0 mseconds 25 msec 50 mill seconds
now later even later
when your stimulating the brain you will feel it in the region that is associated with it
scientist don?t like mystery; they like resolved, solved, canned
Dan Brown: any thing that is not logically in cause and effect relationship with material philosophy has got to be wrong (not correct)
Masters of time and space
Patanjali
He taught that it possible to synchronize thought and action.
Baseball
Track
There is something about a forward and backward of time.
Patanjail, for instance taught that it is possible to synchronize thought and action, putting them together so no gap arises between them. When such a synchronization
Ramana
the mind is vast; the knower is greater that then the known
the seer is greater that the seeing that
the knower ? the unseen
god presence, uninformed, unborn, unformed, uncreated, unrealm
pure consciousness alone remains
The story of time travel
a photon clock
at speed of light time stops.
gravity stretches tie too
time bending is the same as time warping
any straight line is constant speed
space-time theory of relativity
get your mind out of the space time arena
straight line is constant velocity
curved is accelerated
curvature in space is the same thing as acceleration
acceleration is the same a gravity field
Wormhole takes you from one place to another; it could take you from one time to another.
- - -
Sunday, April 23, 2006
the ego wants to survive, that is called individuation
I have given you the practical tools
you are all children at heart
After the first night, why are we here?
we here because we are addicted to drama; almost 99% of individual are addicted to drama; do something to really make you depressed to have drama;
money does not make a difference
taste sensation
movie: Marathon Man
a performer; it is all an act; your act changes
practical application; there are no practical steps
- - -
thought; you think anything you want to; it is the act that makes you happy, depressed
does the universal realm likes drama?
three Abrahamic religion in conflict; drama has gone far enough in that direction; you are seeing the world of madness
only one spiritual presence in this room
we are drama acts; calls them as I sees them;
capsulation:
unrealm is vibratory; a whole range of vibrations; what is vibrating; nothing is vibration; shaman said vibration is the underlying reality
vibration in phase = build up
out of phase =
path link from source to finish
parallel universes: two paths
giving medical advice; clear intention
you have the thought, but it is the action that counts
quantum leaps are natural; that is how quantum works by leaps
you build the thread; you build the different filmstrips by your intention and then ?
Who are you? What mask are you wearing now?
Beetles: magical mystery tour we are on.
What is God?s technology? It is way we can experience life as other. By way you can see life as other. I Thou (Humbert)
I and the Thou are the same (create something as yourself as the other it has to be as sacred as the I)
The reason it works this way according to Quantum physics there is a principle of complementary.
time is another perspective; time is that which the clocks say; cyclical sense of time that we miss out
technology of God is based on the principle you can?t have it all.
grandfather paradox resolved =
you may be a spirit and get born now you?re a older spirit consciousness and just looping yourself into time
??Becoming the Universe
This is how your mind works; you are the universe
you are the universe; then you focus
physicists do experiments they focus and unfocus; you do not learn by not experimenting
Time, mind, and your ?I?
mind = all time; one time is a focus
secret of real time travel = defocusing and focusing; extremely pragmatic, useful, open up to continuous joy or sorrow
to manifest = focus; unmanifest; magic inspiration = un focus; air come in unfocus; breath is like a time machine; time, mind and you I ness
Marx brothers = precedent blur of possibilities; infinite number; unfocusses
focal point = idea
subsequent blur = this is where intent start to enter the picture; intent starts to enter; it always there will be an order, seriality to the sequences.
The role of mind in the un-realm
focal point >focal point >focal point >>>>>Chaotic movement
temporal order emerging (in that sequence of focual points
posterior blur
focual point
precedent blur
normal temporal order composing a triplet
this is how your intent works
when you first start you are over the place; focus point (relaxing place)
learning does not mean holding tight; to relax and allow for error; error means more possibilities, more chaoses, surf the quantum wave; surf the possibilities
anal retention = master life, but have no fun
precedent blur (less possibilities) (hold space mask close to you; working backward in time, unfocusing need to do to open yourself for new possibilities to enter (12,3 does not take you to a basic truth; you are not entering on the mind side that allows this)
posterior blur (more possibilities)
blur means more possibilities; less possibilities
reversal of time; it is moving in the opposite direction.
power of intent = keep looking for things the same way and that is the power of intent
cultivate an intent every morning
lecture, dictate, dictate; does not create original work that is what I sense
time sequence is a series of triplets;
the role of the mind in the un-realm.
Begins to look like a code of possibilities
When you unfocus you go to >
a. an infinite, unchanging reality hidden behind the illusion of ceaseless change.
2. The infinite, unchanging reality lies at the core of every being and is the substratum of the personality.
3. Life has one main purpose to experience this one reality ? to discover who you are.
How to create your reality
1. To create a reality open to the infinite and then focus on the finite.
2. Repeat this, focus in tighter
3. Now let the process take over.
Note: Infinite means all possibilities
your drama is simple you are the cosmos giving rise to your own birth, death and return to the cosmos.
from a time/god point of view it is already a done deal
Alex Grey Sacred Mirror
the surrender of the ego and the recapture of the ego
it is too bad that he feels he need to act everything
when you dissolve, you really dissolve, all ego tic things dissipate; if that attracts you
the heart of being human is to dance on the edge of chaos; called
marriage when people are going to kill each other; unfold yourself and you are going to be in everyone
attracted to certain scenarios in your rebirth
quantum nature; this from the unrealm to realm ; do you think of the unrealm is continuous
unrealm is capability of appearing in different form; special that is continue; quantum field is both
the tools that unwind
different degrees of freedom
field theory of how it could go; so complex
small number understand our true nature; everyone understands this, everyone gives up maintaining their understand and give into their addictions.
survival mechanism; each environment produces a different survival mechanism. environment where you put yourself is what you accept
you do what you do to survive.
consciousness is seeking you out rather than you seeking you out; living in fear is un-realization
consciousness is seeking you out; your natural state gets you to seek out consciousness.
in the unrealm there is nothing there
David Bohm:
unrealm = implicate order
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
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From donlay at knology.net Thu Dec 27 03:28:49 2007
From: donlay at knology.net (Don Lay)
Date: Thu Dec 27 03:37:00 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fred Alan Wolf
References: <BLU109-W369D6363184A569B060D6EB7540@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <001501c84830$374c3370$b5c16018@DL01>
Blue, blue.
From: Regina Bensch-Coe
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 8:37 PM
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Fred Alan Wolf
Last April, I attended a two-day seminar by Fred Alan Wolf aka Dr. Quantum. Don?t remember the exact title of the program but it was something like ?Spirituality through Quantum Physics?. Some people found Wolf?s presentation (on the Realm and Unrealm) to be very informative and interesting; other?s were turned off. After each break Wolf questioned why some people did not return; the group of about 200 got smaller and smaller.
dl: My experience also at a Wolf seminar.
Some found Wolf to be arrogant and authoritative. One person, a scientist who teaches at Harvard University said, ?I love the science part, but I don?t like his attitude. If he is suppose to be a model of spirituality, then I don?t want to be like him.?
In all fairness, Wolf worked very hard ? with cartoons, loud music from the 60?s & 70?s, loud outbursts ? to try make something very complex understandable. Yet, at times when people asked him questions, he seemed frustrated. This was especially so when someone asked: ?What does this have to do with spirituality??
I sense that Wolf (when he?s not acting or pretending) is really a compassionate, caring individual. There were moments when this came through.
dl: REgina this was my impression too, as well as that of some friends who also attended.
Similarly, when I asked him if he knew Bohm, he said "Yes, Bohm used to have an office around the corner and often came to his office." He said it in such a way that it was obvious that he was acting and pretending as if he was somehow supperior to Bohm. Others noticed it also and concluded that he felt very insecure about his person. My view also. Easy to spot.
Another person's question regarding Bohm elicited a similar kind of response, and it seemed clear that he felt a bit slighted that someone would ask about db at his, Wolfe's seminar.
Thanks for this Regina. -- dl
When the very last question was asked, Wolf looked a little stoned-faced. The question was: ?Is the Unrealm the same as David Bohm?s Implicate Order?? He looked my way and said softly, ?Yes.? Shortly after six people came over and wanted to know more about Bohm.
For those of you who decide to read the notes, you could easily replace the word ?realm? for ?explicate? and ?unrealm? for implicate?. For most of the presentation, this connection was not clarified for me. When I spoke to Wolf during the break about Bohm, he did not mention any connection. However, he did say that he worked at the University of California with Bohm and that their offices were near each other.
The following notes ? without the cartoons, loud outbursts, loud music, and unfortunately, without the charts ? holds meaning. The transcription is not perfect; I did not catch everything ? some sections make no sense without the charts. I am going to try to attach the notes from both days. If it bounces back, I will resend it in two or more parts.
Regina
????????????????????????????????????????
Fred Alan Wolf notes
Saturday, April 22, 2006
realm of the unrealm;
map made of the world that allowed us to survive and what appears to be a hostile environment
What you believe is not of interest; what is of interest is your experiences; awaken to your experiences; from that experience that real learning takes place
quantum physics is the most sophisticated, most robust, and the most childlike, and simplest because it reverts back to the that childlike in the most simple way.
What masks it is the jargon to proves it therefore what get communicated is only real smart sciences can understand quantum physics
to experience the world differently
doing it right now;
what ever your doing is an act; your ego has nothing to do with it
after the thought, speaks the world (ego)
this is just a act; big mystery here; to be in the mystery gets you prize
approach all of it from a source of mystery; you can learn to change your act. it is what life totally a delight; build into the mystery is this wonderful thing called drama; we are all queens and kings;
story, narrative, romance, conflict (god-technology produced show and you are the actor)
we have all done it; the perfection is in the imperfection; the probability of distribution of the possibilities.
We can play anything; many get away with it. Whatever it is it is your act.
Quantum physics has something to say about it.
A simple experiment
Down the Realm
What does this with anything?? double slit experiment
?????
An experiment with electrons
< biprism (see chart)
electrons: little tiny particles, no one knows how big a electron is, they made spots; later, discovered? it is a wave
Father = spot
Son = wave
two possibilities; two choices; you can choose to observe each electron as it travels on a path or not (watch how it travels or doesn?t watch how it travel
watch/observer = a normal probability pattern; this describes so much life;
bell shape curve = average number of times; the electrons travel through and make spots; electron goes through the double slit thing (a prism) ; this dot pattern tell us it is traveling one way or another.
But if you don?t observe which way the electron goes, the unrealm begins to show up; when we let the electron go where we don?t know whether it is going to go; two becomes one.
gets so many holes; more holes than stuff that holds the whole; infinite number of possibilities as long as we are not looking. anything that is up has a possibility of being down here.
not observing; not seeing;
have to have an expectation to know what your looking for
without expectation ? do not know what your
if your not observing, the electron takes every possible path
atom:
electrons are each atom; trips for the electron to master diff guises for doing its thing; when it does its thing you are experiencing energy
two electrons and two choices
the electron travels along two pathways
all we observe is particle things, but we infer that they are waves (paths are waves)
the wavey stuff is important ? the unrealm (that where the waviness is; where the electron is when it is not being observed
in the unrealm there is a waviness; and everything in the universe has a waviness; the waviness of the unrealm; waves go up and come down;
two waves crossing over and when the waves are superposition (one on top of the other) When you add them together you get nothing; this is where you get nothing it is called an interference pattern; possibilities in the unrealm can exist and amount to another; if there is a in phase
yoga of time travel;
Nothing ? the pattern tells us each electron interferes with itself? there is nothing
It looks like a series of spikes
one electron ? two choices: to observe or not observe;
interference pattern
look down and up at the electron; double split experiment; cloud I sour knowledge of the electron.
electron as a ball going to two slits.
electron arriving at various places; what would I observed; what do you see when you look on the screen you see only see one possibility you see only one possibility eventually build up a pattern of hits.
electrons are detected one by one as particles ?
electron it is interfering with itself, this is impossible; but if they are in the unrealm
wave is the way the electron behaves when your not observing, it is a beam like a wave
particle is the way the electron behaves when observed
pathway for the waves to travel; to trace a ; the electron does not go to point
we only understand interference when we look at different places.
Between beginning and end; how did it get there (let?s there is nothing no screen, no prism ?
draw lines with start and end how do you get there.
the unrealm; realm
everything is in the unrealm when it is not observed;
after all done, I have made a manifestation of what I have seen; looking at a pattern, a memory on a chip, that is pretty stable.
were not entering and exiting all time; the unrealm is like a vacuum; you cannot make a mechanical model of this ? that picture will encumber anything we understand; when observation takes place, things just pop into existence
Ask if there is a model for it?
the fact those waves become an electron ? that is the mystery
we do not observe how it travels; if you observe where the electron goes;
the final screen is the end of the experiment
it what happens in between is what we are interested in.
???
observation creates reality
if we don?t observe, this happens (see figure)
what is meant by observing
Looking at a videotape after the event would not count.
Looking at it while it happening, that would count.
- - - - -
Until you hear it, it isn?t there.
The tape observed.
Until it is an observed record it is the unrealm.
the unrealm has no energy; just possibility
How can one electron be in two places at one time?
That is a mystery.
Baseball:
realistist/materialist = I call it as it are: strike or ball
humanist/psychist = I calls it as I sees them
yogi = they ain?t nothing until I calls them
by your call, you reality is created
the reality is constructed.
The vanishing cube: metaphor for the unrealm
Do you agree that it is a cube?
A see through cube
only see one: logical thinking; no artistic abilities
seen leaping: visual metaphor for quantum leap; jump what could be
observation creates reality;
screen pointer = misguided
head pointer = this guy is crazy
everything goes on in your head, not out here
it betrays itself by jumping, quantum leaping
you have been taught color are light waves
in physics there is principle of complimentary; complimentary ways of observing thing
look one way gets one thing; look another way you get something else
two way ? ? complimentary is modern tool of magician see the world; shamans use the complimentary position; shaman perform something that he has magical power; the healer can?t do anything until you heal your self.
he is already healed because you believe in me.
you allow the process to take place.
belief structure of the person that heals
you are an observer/creator experience
This is your role as an observer/creator you bring all experience into existence!
Right now have excessive birth and death; birth into unrealm, death of the unrealm.
prolonging in the unrealm; most of the time in the realm (he likes to be in the realm)
There is power to change reality from the unrealm. Do things in the realm, but the power comes from the unrealm. always working in the materialist realm, you are pushing things around, but you are not creating anything. Mozart composed out of the unrealm. Their guru taught them how to compose out of the unrealm.
Opening the third eye.
Time and the theory of relativity
Sneaking the observer in the unrealm.
The choose mechanism; you are choosing reality.
before consciousness
two possibilities looking down at the cube; or up at the cube. Two possibilities coexisting as one
with consciousness the possibilities separate into one or the other this is still in the unrealm
from the uncreated comes the created
the observer sees one reality or another but not other
or you enter parallel universes
in two parallel universes; you split into one and the other the observer see only one reality; the observer is in two universes when they overlap you see the blue
when you see a jump, you are seeing universities.
the parallel universe theory, it allows overlap
the paper bag face
mask of the other; you bring with you a picture of an image and take it with you where ever you go
you are the other
you tell everyone how they should behave because of the script you have created
understand the process and you are on your way of not being trapped by the process (George Bush is trapped by the process)
See it from the unborn, uninformed, unoriginated ? drama is created by willing or unwilling participants
Marilyn Monroe: we created Marilyn Monroe; she made the image of we created from our unborm, uninformed ? I bought you Marilyn Monroe; I paid for you as Marilyn Monroe The I is the collective mind. The image Hollywood did not make the illusion; we made the illusion
We are the reality creators; we created every Hollywood film, political system, we are the creator the author of it all the source of it all; if you don?t understand it then you are a victim of it
If you keep believing that you are just material substance that gives form to substance ??? you buy that act you are easily manipulated. You are the fools, you buy into things.
If you get wise then you dissipate that structure and you author it and take responsibility for it.
Can you tell me what is spiritual about this? This is a gift from the point of view of the unformed un-originated. I am the reality created.
??
A secret of the clouds
past ? future
mind = anything in the future is the result of the past
most people believe this //this is only (where time come in) 50% of the time
the future creates the past
How can you say the future affects the present
you say the past has not been observed
the future has not been observed; can an observed that will take place can affect me right now!!
past generates future
future generates past
time is two way street
agreement about that being right ? ? ?
I might be wrong, but a wristwatch is never wrong
My skin and muscle is 60+ years, but something inside never ages. What you are made (your essence is) is cloud of possibilities.
These clouds arise from the future past present. These possibility clouds are in here and out there.
The secret of time
Time is sexy. The feeling of sex is a message coming from the future. What is the call that makes the arousal feeling arise. The call is coming from the future (future progeny calling you on the telephone of the body. There is an investment on this drama that the future is made. When you are in the unborn, etc you are outside space and time, matter and energy. Body is a receptor; the messages is coming. It is asking you to produce another human being. When cloning, there will be another call. Passion comes from love of drama; sex comes from that drama.
consider the possibility that memories work both ways, you can remember the future, but you forgot how to do that
The future sends information back to the present (rebound)
the past sends information to the present
space beyond time to see how physicists work in that space
how to use our mind to time travel; time travel is nothing more than the movement from the realm into the unrealm
nature of time in your own brain and nervous system brain has a time window (it has a little bit of past, future, and what you think is the present, and a little bit of time)
The Yoga of Time Travel
how, why, what it means to escape the matrix of time
science of transformation (alchemy)
Matter into feeling
The Dreaming Universe
The Spiritual Universe
Taking the Quantum Leap
Cycles and Dreamtime
Dreamtime was a term coined by two anthropologists and johnt and spencer and 1899; a concept to was great spirit dreaming. More than the time you spend when your sleeping. Aborigines wander and gathers; wander/gathers situation; they saw themselves as part of the land. Land like air is not to be owned. they see the land as a dreaming spirit. The dream is the story of the evolution. dream drama: fire, water, send dream spirits into the land.
if we imagine time as a line: past present future
for dreamtime: time is in a hoop
When spark enters into the material world, we know that
experiencing beyond space time
The question of how big space is
how long time is
questions are encapsulated in the language structure itself.
we can bind space; space is not in the concept of being bound
time does not have beginning and end; an interval has a beginning and end
Psychological space-time; how we create time in our mind
she is falling asleep; space-time creation;
we are able to see a time window; we see the beginning and end of both dots and we fill in what is missing.
two stories: one say you don?t know it until after the fact
the other seeing before
baseball: quantum game; superhuman feat to play baseball; it is clearly impossible
So where is my mind
Where is your mind your highness and when is your mind here
When a sensation normally occurs.
0 mseconds 25 msec 50 mill seconds
now later even later
when your stimulating the brain you will feel it in the region that is associated with it
scientist don?t like mystery; they like resolved, solved, canned
Dan Brown: any thing that is not logically in cause and effect relationship with material philosophy has got to be wrong (not correct)
Masters of time and space
Patanjali
He taught that it possible to synchronize thought and action.
Baseball
Track
There is something about a forward and backward of time.
Patanjail, for instance taught that it is possible to synchronize thought and action, putting them together so no gap arises between them. When such a synchronization
Ramana
the mind is vast; the knower is greater that then the known
the seer is greater that the seeing that
the knower ? the unseen
god presence, uninformed, unborn, unformed, uncreated, unrealm
pure consciousness alone remains
The story of time travel
a photon clock
at speed of light time stops.
gravity stretches tie too
time bending is the same as time warping
any straight line is constant speed
space-time theory of relativity
get your mind out of the space time arena
straight line is constant velocity
curved is accelerated
curvature in space is the same thing as acceleration
acceleration is the same a gravity field
Wormhole takes you from one place to another; it could take you from one time to another.
- - -
Sunday, April 23, 2006
the ego wants to survive, that is called individuation
I have given you the practical tools
you are all children at heart
After the first night, why are we here?
we here because we are addicted to drama; almost 99% of individual are addicted to drama; do something to really make you depressed to have drama;
money does not make a difference
taste sensation
movie: Marathon Man
a performer; it is all an act; your act changes
practical application; there are no practical steps
- - -
thought; you think anything you want to; it is the act that makes you happy, depressed
does the universal realm likes drama?
three Abrahamic religion in conflict; drama has gone far enough in that direction; you are seeing the world of madness
only one spiritual presence in this room
we are drama acts; calls them as I sees them;
capsulation:
unrealm is vibratory; a whole range of vibrations; what is vibrating; nothing is vibration; shaman said vibration is the underlying reality
vibration in phase = build up
out of phase =
path link from source to finish
parallel universes: two paths
giving medical advice; clear intention
you have the thought, but it is the action that counts
quantum leaps are natural; that is how quantum works by leaps
you build the thread; you build the different filmstrips by your intention and then ?
Who are you? What mask are you wearing now?
Beetles: magical mystery tour we are on.
What is God?s technology? It is way we can experience life as other. By way you can see life as other. I Thou (Humbert)
I and the Thou are the same (create something as yourself as the other it has to be as sacred as the I)
The reason it works this way according to Quantum physics there is a principle of complementary.
time is another perspective; time is that which the clocks say; cyclical sense of time that we miss out
technology of God is based on the principle you can?t have it all.
grandfather paradox resolved =
you may be a spirit and get born now you?re a older spirit consciousness and just looping yourself into time
??Becoming the Universe
This is how your mind works; you are the universe
you are the universe; then you focus
physicists do experiments they focus and unfocus; you do not learn by not experimenting
Time, mind, and your ?I?
mind = all time; one time is a focus
secret of real time travel = defocusing and focusing; extremely pragmatic, useful, open up to continuous joy or sorrow
to manifest = focus; unmanifest; magic inspiration = un focus; air come in unfocus; breath is like a time machine; time, mind and you I ness
Marx brothers = precedent blur of possibilities; infinite number; unfocusses
focal point = idea
subsequent blur = this is where intent start to enter the picture; intent starts to enter; it always there will be an order, seriality to the sequences.
The role of mind in the un-realm
focal point >focal point >focal point >>>>>Chaotic movement
temporal order emerging (in that sequence of focual points
posterior blur
focual point
precedent blur
normal temporal order composing a triplet
this is how your intent works
when you first start you are over the place; focus point (relaxing place)
learning does not mean holding tight; to relax and allow for error; error means more possibilities, more chaoses, surf the quantum wave; surf the possibilities
anal retention = master life, but have no fun
precedent blur (less possibilities) (hold space mask close to you; working backward in time, unfocusing need to do to open yourself for new possibilities to enter (12,3 does not take you to a basic truth; you are not entering on the mind side that allows this)
posterior blur (more possibilities)
blur means more possibilities; less possibilities
reversal of time; it is moving in the opposite direction.
power of intent = keep looking for things the same way and that is the power of intent
cultivate an intent every morning
lecture, dictate, dictate; does not create original work that is what I sense
time sequence is a series of triplets;
the role of the mind in the un-realm.
Begins to look like a code of possibilities
When you unfocus you go to >
a. an infinite, unchanging reality hidden behind the illusion of ceaseless change.
2. The infinite, unchanging reality lies at the core of every being and is the substratum of the personality.
3. Life has one main purpose to experience this one reality ? to discover who you are.
How to create your reality
1. To create a reality open to the infinite and then focus on the finite.
2. Repeat this, focus in tighter
3. Now let the process take over.
Note: Infinite means all possibilities
your drama is simple you are the cosmos giving rise to your own birth, death and return to the cosmos.
from a time/god point of view it is already a done deal
Alex Grey Sacred Mirror
the surrender of the ego and the recapture of the ego
it is too bad that he feels he need to act everything
when you dissolve, you really dissolve, all ego tic things dissipate; if that attracts you
the heart of being human is to dance on the edge of chaos; called
marriage when people are going to kill each other; unfold yourself and you are going to be in everyone
attracted to certain scenarios in your rebirth
quantum nature; this from the unrealm to realm ; do you think of the unrealm is continuous
unrealm is capability of appearing in different form; special that is continue; quantum field is both
the tools that unwind
different degrees of freedom
field theory of how it could go; so complex
small number understand our true nature; everyone understands this, everyone gives up maintaining their understand and give into their addictions.
survival mechanism; each environment produces a different survival mechanism. environment where you put yourself is what you accept
you do what you do to survive.
consciousness is seeking you out rather than you seeking you out; living in fear is un-realization
consciousness is seeking you out; your natural state gets you to seek out consciousness.
in the unrealm there is nothing there
David Bohm:
unrealm = implicate order
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Thu Dec 27 05:47:40 2007
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Thu Dec 27 05:55:49 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought
In-Reply-To: <57438.32656.qm@web52901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C3987C7C.FE71%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
I read murder mysteries at such times, all the way from Christie to PD James
and back again.
On 12/26/07 5:22 PM, "Karilen Mays" <tubakari@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Pretty chilly here too. Wind just seems like a waste lately, and I can't get
> over some subtle (and at times obvious) bitterness at something un-specific. A
> mindless movie may be called for.
>
> from yesterday:
>
> talking and laughing
> not feeling very celebratory
> energy is tense and electric
> heart large and pulsating
> knowing there is nothing to say
> nothing to do
> gathering 'round the table with
> children of relatives of friends
> i need a vacation
>
>
> -kari
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Don Lay <donlay@knology.net>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:55:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Proprioception of thought - was: spam
> andaloneness
>
> Speaking of which, it's chilly here and I'm off for a glass of wind and
> dinner.
>
>
>
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/cat
> egory.php?category=shopping>
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From jeff at siit.tu.ac.th Thu Dec 27 10:25:34 2007
From: jeff at siit.tu.ac.th (Jeff Webb)
Date: Thu Dec 27 10:33:19 2007
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
In-Reply-To: <BLU109-W5159A862F1D8CFA0F024C1B7540@phx.gbl>
References: <439325.58372.qm@web57411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <476679F0.60003@siit.tu.ac.th>
<BLU109-W5159A862F1D8CFA0F024C1B7540@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <47736F8E.902@siit.tu.ac.th>
Yes I agree, the feeling of incoherence was one of the main things that
made me respond in the first place.
Jeff
Regina Bensch-Coe wrote:
> Jeff,
> To me, the author?s statement about the implicate order seemed
> incoherent. That is why I asked the question. I am grateful for the
> many responses, especially the dialogue between you and William. The
> interesting thing about asking a question is that sometimes responses
> emerge from unexpected places. While I was going through my old files
> I came across Fred Alan Wolf notes from a seminar I attended last
> April. It?s been 9 months since I read the notes ? now they seem to
> hold new meaning. I will post the notes on a separate thread.
> By the way, welcome!
>
> Regina
>
> > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:30:24 +0700
> > From: jeff@siit.tu.ac.th
> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Implicate Order
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would like to comment on the issue: is there space, time causality in
> > the implicate order.
> >
> > If one reads something like Bohm's "wholeness and the implicate
> order' I
> > think that it is fairly clear that things like space and time can be
> > explicated out of the implicate order (in which they are
> implicated). So
> > the statement "in the implicate order (t)here in no space, time
> > causality, matter, or mind' seems to me to indicate that the maker of
> > this statement has completely misunderstood Bohms notion of the
> > implicate order.
> >
> > I'm sure that others on this list will be able to add more details.
> >
> > Jeff
> > >
> > > In the attached article, the author writes, ?in the
> > > 'implicate' order ere is no space, time, causality,
> > > matter, or mind.? (Note: I am guessing ?ere? is a typo for
> > > ?there?.)
> > >
> > > In the implicate order there is no space, time, causality,
> > > matter, or mind. ?? Is this statement true?
> > >
> > > Regina
> > >
> > >
> > > ??
> > >
> >
> >
> > info: www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
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