From zoechuzero at yahoo.com Wed Sep 27 01:21:56 2006
From: zoechuzero at yahoo.com (Zoe Chu)
Date: Thu Sep 28 02:16:33 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish --- also called death-instinct
In-Reply-To: <0ML25U-1GSK8C13IO-0007gk@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <20060926232156.63231.qmail@web55011.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Hi all - Did this group ever talked about it, investigate it? --- Zoe
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Sep 27 01:52:19 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Thu Sep 28 02:46:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Suspension
In-Reply-To: <0ML25U-1GSK8C13IO-0007gk@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <20060926235219.99319.qmail@web52907.mail.yahoo.com>
William,
Thanks for that message.
For me suspension is about holding any or multiple perspectives or opinion/belief/etc. Not identifying with it necessarily, though really embodying a perspective continues to be suspension from my experience. Embodying, feeling it intentionally as opposed when we are swept up with a reaction...which is more often than not, hehe. So we consciously even deliberately pull the feeling close and into ourselves and try it out, see how it feels, instead of shutting ourselves off or out or down and saying, im suspending, holding this perspective way over there...
I think suspension could be done deliberately, but it is tricky (Kirsten will love that word) because you have to really understand, intuitively at least, or at the felt sense, at whatever sense works for you, and then beyond that, it just works.
I didn't used to understand intention and questioned it thoroughly thinking it was all a lie and all mixed up with the ego...but now I don't necessarily think that. Intention can be very powerful and suspension is included in what we can do with sincere intention. So maybe I have talked/typed myself into a circle and what I am describing is embedded in the preconception of thought!?
Kari
----- Original Message ----
From: william <w@david-bohm.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:06:16 PM
Subject: AW: AW: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
>Gosh, do you think it will do that for everyone?
>
>don
I think, this 'suspension' thing could be a bit tricky: If you try to do it
consciously, deliberately, then it turns into a subtle form of suppression.
I mean, when suspension is done consciously then it interrupt something, or
interferes with something. But there is a kind of suspension that feels more
like a natural side-effect of proprioception of thought ('proprioception' in
the sense of Bohm). I guess, when I talk about suspension, I mean it as a
side-effect of proprioception, not as a deliberate act of consciousness.
william
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Sep 27 01:58:07 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Thu Sep 28 02:52:45 2006
Subject: AW: AW: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <0MKwh2-1GSJnb0UyE-00088c@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <20060926235807.93887.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com>
For me, the process of dialogue may include moments when individuals don't seem to respect or give courtesy to others, in the way they explode over something that is said...but if we all realize that we are bringing up beliefs which are all essentially the same, other than deep listening, what respect is needed?
Respecting the process of dialogue may include me telling someone I think they are full of it. This has happened a few times in groups I have been in - not from me necessarily but in the group.
It seems we have to keep a priority level of swaying what we truly feel balanced with any common courtesy or social conventions. As Lee and others said, dialogue is no place to be politically correct! At least not in the environments I have experienced.
I am interested in rawness and spontaneity so that is what takes precedence for me.
Thanks!
kari
ps- and then you have a problem of people who try to subvert the process which throws quite a monkey wrench in my idealistic view of the process of dialogue - is their non pc-ness less welcome than those who are honestly attempting the process? hmmm
----- Original Message ----
From: william <w@david-bohm.net>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:44:57 PM
Subject: AW: AW: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Kathryn Arizmendi:
>I know I'm new, but how about just plain old courtesy? Kathy
Yes, "plain old courtesy" works better for me. I suppose, I'm putting too
much into 'respect', which (to me) has something to do with admiration.
Perhaps, Lynne meant something closer to 'being considerate'. Interesting
how different people assign slightly different meanings to the same word,
don't you think?
william
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Sep 27 03:07:28 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Thu Sep 28 04:02:08 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <C13EC5C1.964D%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20060927010728.29652.qmail@web52914.mail.yahoo.com>
By the way, Gill and Lynne-
I am inspired by what you are hsaring your thoughts and experiences -- keep it up!
Peace,
Kari
http://kari.zaadz.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:33:19 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Hi Lynne,
Yes My experience has been that the group has come to respect each other when the group has been able to create shared understandngs and meanings ... its not where they have necessarily started but somewhere there is a shift to respecting and caring for each other, often as a result of exploring assumptions and discovering them and experiencing the feelings that are trapped within them. Once we are engaged in checking assumptions and melting them, people's presence seems to deepen or expand and maybe our communication comes from the heart a little more.
By the way, are you American? I wonder as sometimes my name gets changed from Gill (short for Gillian) to Gil and usually its Americans (smile)!!
Gill
From: Lynne Tolk <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:02:33 -0600
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Hi Gil,
I have also done facilitation, and also had the experience seeing a group shift into some sort of shared understanding that impressed all of us. This is one reason I?ve been exploring Bohm?s thought and joined this group. One thing that seemed important to the experience of that group was an agreement to approach each other with great respect. I have wondered, myself, if a group can come to any kind of shared understanding (not needing agreement) without this kind of respect.
I remember reading (don?t remember where) that Bohm was asked about some groups not working, and he said the members need to have done their homework ? i.e. studied and understood the principles behind such dialogue (I would think in particular the principle of suspension of assumptions).
Lynne
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Sep 27 03:02:31 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Thu Sep 28 04:03:51 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <C13EC39E.964C%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20060927010231.8982.qmail@web52902.mail.yahoo.com>
not "my" experience either! if the human animal hates dialogue, i guess i ain't human!?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:33:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
> the human animal HATES dialog,
Kirsten this is not my experience ... when groups experience 'true dialogue'
they are touched to their core and it seems to me people 'love' it rather
than hate it when it occurs.
What makes you say they hate it?
Gill
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
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_______________________________________________
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Wed Sep 27 03:30:01 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Thu Sep 28 04:24:42 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] medium
In-Reply-To: <20060926.115002.1120.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20060927013001.25659.qmail@web52905.mail.yahoo.com>
That's great Franis!
We just got an old organ from a thrift store and I have been improving on it, and it feels really good! (My neighbor may not feel as good, but oh well, hehe.)
I have not been much for improvising in the past, but now I havent even read music in over a year and I don't even know the notes on the instruments I am playing with, and it is really fun and freeing.
we are all "musicians"!
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 11:21:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] medium
Words for me are the easiest medium of the web, probably because I have a
slower older computer!
I'm not finished with this part of my site, but if Mark wanted the file
that's the content for it, I'd send it to him. Perhaps it would be useful
for you Mark to encourage people to learn that they are musicians.
http://www.franis.org/out4improv/ -Franis
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Wed Sep 27 04:38:31 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Thu Sep 28 05:33:14 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <C13EC5C1.964D%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C13F4047.73AC%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Gill,
My apologies. Yes, I?m American, but that?s no excuse. I continually run
into people leaving the ?e? off my own name (& you got it right!). I will
say that I?ve been reading and responding to email late at night the last
few weeks, as I?m spending a lot of time taking care of my new grandson, so
my eyes and brain are tired.
I wasn?t really clear about what I meant by respect, either. In the group I
mentioned, we agreed in advance to listen carefully to each others? views,
in order to understand, while withholding judgment. The respect you
mention here grew out of that.
Lynne
On 9/26/06 5:33 AM, "Gill Wyatt" <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Lynne,
>
> Yes My experience has been that the group has come to respect each other when
> the group has been able to create shared understandngs and meanings ... its
> not where they have necessarily started but somewhere there is a shift to
> respecting and caring for each other, often as a result of exploring
> assumptions and discovering them and experiencing the feelings that are
> trapped within them. Once we are engaged in checking assumptions and melting
> them, people's presence seems to deepen or expand and maybe our communication
> comes from the heart a little more.
>
> By the way, are you American? I wonder as sometimes my name gets changed from
> Gill (short for Gillian) to Gil and usually its Americans (smile)!!
>
> Gill
>
>
>>
>> From: Lynne Tolk <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:02:33 -0600
>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>> Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
>>
>
>> Hi Gil,
>>
>> I have also done facilitation, and also had the experience seeing a group
>> shift into some sort of shared understanding that impressed all of us. This
>> is one reason I?ve been exploring Bohm?s thought and joined this group. One
>> thing that seemed important to the experience of that group was an agreement
>> to approach each other with great respect. I have wondered, myself, if a
>> group can come to any kind of shared understanding (not needing agreement)
>> without this kind of respect.
>>
>> I remember reading (don?t remember where) that Bohm was asked about some
>> groups not working, and he said the members need to have done their homework
>> ? i.e. studied and understood the principles behind such dialogue (I would
>> think in particular the principle of suspension of assumptions).
>>
>> Lynne
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
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From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Sep 27 09:36:39 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Thu Sep 28 10:58:38 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
Message-ID: <20060927.005907.388.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Sure. I'd be willing to talk about that more.
But Pat used to have all the archives, but her computer is gone now, so
she can't pull it up for you. That's a loss for all of us.
I remember a former member named Dwight told this amazing story about
having drowned. He got rescued, coming back to life after having lost it.
He described life being like a wet sweater that he didn't want to put
back on. It was a pretty amazing account. - Franis
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Zoe Chu <zoechuzero@yahoo.com>
writes:
> Hi all - Did this group ever talked about it, investigate it? --- Zoe
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 10:38:26 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Thu Sep 28 11:33:19 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060927010231.8982.qmail@web52902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060927010231.8982.qmail@web52902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <63EADA4C-A012-46F8-951C-194225C7AA1B@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Nor is it mine. But all over the world we hear calls for more
dialogue and they just don't happen, which leads me
to believe that if they don't hate it, then they fear it. Or, if
introduced to Bohm dialogue their enculturation, which
tells them that everything must have a purpose and that we must
progress toward fulfilling that purpose or try
something else instead, comes into play and they leave, blaming the
process. So, I can understand the notion
of "hating" dialogue in the sense that Patrick deMare' describes
which is a Freudian view that a group of
strangers greet one another in the beginning with a kind of defensive
suspicion and concealed hatred. HIs view
was that this always is revealed as the group is encouraged to move
toward dialogue and fellowship.
don
On 27 Sep 2006, at 02:02, Karilen Mays wrote:
> not "my" experience either! if the human animal hates dialogue, i
> guess i ain't human!?
>
> kari
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:33:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
> >
> > the human animal HATES dialog,
>
> Kirsten this is not my experience ... when groups experience 'true
> dialogue'
> they are touched to their core and it seems to me people 'love' it
> rather
> than hate it when it occurs.
>
> What makes you say they hate it?
>
> Gill
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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From Steve.Devlin at domino-uk.com Wed Sep 27 13:02:41 2006
From: Steve.Devlin at domino-uk.com (Steve Devlin)
Date: Thu Sep 28 13:57:34 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <7F05097227EC594E98E31F97901F12B33CB51B@dps-exchange1.dps.local>
I am guessing that the purpose of dialogue we are talking about in these
cases is some form of conflict resolution. One of the reasons dialogue
may be feared or avoided is that that resolution of conflict could
eradicate the purpose for one of the parties involved in the conflict.
Some organisations and/or individuals only have a raison d'etre while
conflict is underway, resolution of that conflict reduces those
individuals status to that of their supporters.
-----Original Message-----
From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org
[mailto:bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Don Factor
Sent: 27 September 2006 09:38
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Nor is it mine. But all over the world we hear calls for more
dialogue and they just don't happen, which leads me
to believe that if they don't hate it, then they fear it. Or, if
introduced to Bohm dialogue their enculturation, which
tells them that everything must have a purpose and that we must
progress toward fulfilling that purpose or try
something else instead, comes into play and they leave, blaming
the process. So, I can understand the notion
of "hating" dialogue in the sense that Patrick deMare' describes
which is a Freudian view that a group of
strangers greet one another in the beginning with a kind of
defensive suspicion and concealed hatred. HIs view
was that this always is revealed as the group is encouraged to
move toward dialogue and fellowship.
don
On 27 Sep 2006, at 02:02, Karilen Mays wrote:
not "my" experience either! if the human animal hates
dialogue, i guess i ain't human!?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:33:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
> the human animal HATES dialog,
Kirsten this is not my experience ... when groups
experience 'true dialogue'
they are touched to their core and it seems to me people
'love' it rather
than hate it when it occurs.
What makes you say they hate it?
Gill
_______________________________________________
****************************************************
Visit our website at <http://www.domino-printing.com/>
****************************************************
This Email and any files transmitted with it are intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any reading, redistribution, disclosure or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the sender immediately and delete the material from your computer.
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 14:27:20 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Thu Sep 28 15:22:20 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <7F05097227EC594E98E31F97901F12B33CB51B@dps-exchange1.dps.local>
References: <7F05097227EC594E98E31F97901F12B33CB51B@dps-exchange1.dps.local>
Message-ID: <25AB709A-A6CC-4C67-8410-2327AAC18930@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
That's probably the case for many, but not all. I think I told the
story before about an Iranian guy who came to fix our washing
machine. He had been a supporter of the Ayatolla and had been a
member of the revolutionary guard. But after a bit, he said, it all
became too religious and mindless for him, so he left. He also
mentioned that most of the revolutionary guard people were graduates,
many with postgraduate degrees, but almost all in technology subjects
so they were all pretty uneducated about the world of ideas and culture.
I invited him to come along to our dialogue group which he did. But
he thought the whole affair was pointless, not going anywhere, so he
didn't return. I think its this idea of not wanting to waste one's
time without at least having some fun, that puts people off. This
notion of pure exploration would seem to many much like the religious
mindlessness that drove this guy out of Iran and finally to London
and for these, they could see this sort of thing as being just as
hateful as anything else.
don
On 27 Sep 2006, at 12:02, Steve Devlin wrote:
> I am guessing that the purpose of dialogue we are talking about in
> these cases is some form of conflict resolution. One of the reasons
> dialogue may be feared or avoided is that that resolution of
> conflict could eradicate the purpose for one of the parties
> involved in the conflict. Some organisations and/or individuals
> only have a raison d'etre while conflict is underway, resolution of
> that conflict reduces those individuals status to that of their
> supporters.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org [mailto:bohm_dialogue-
> bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Don Factor
> Sent: 27 September 2006 09:38
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
> Nor is it mine. But all over the world we hear calls for more
> dialogue and they just don't happen, which leads me
> to believe that if they don't hate it, then they fear it. Or, if
> introduced to Bohm dialogue their enculturation, which
> tells them that everything must have a purpose and that we must
> progress toward fulfilling that purpose or try
> something else instead, comes into play and they leave, blaming the
> process. So, I can understand the notion
> of "hating" dialogue in the sense that Patrick deMare' describes
> which is a Freudian view that a group of
> strangers greet one another in the beginning with a kind of
> defensive suspicion and concealed hatred. HIs view
> was that this always is revealed as the group is encouraged to move
> toward dialogue and fellowship.
>
> don
>
>
> On 27 Sep 2006, at 02:02, Karilen Mays wrote:
>
>> not "my" experience either! if the human animal hates dialogue, i
>> guess i ain't human!?
>>
>> kari
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:33:19 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>>
>> >
>> > the human animal HATES dialog,
>>
>> Kirsten this is not my experience ... when groups experience 'true
>> dialogue'
>> they are touched to their core and it seems to me people 'love' it
>> rather
>> than hate it when it occurs.
>>
>> What makes you say they hate it?
>>
>> Gill
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
> ****************************************************
>
> Visit our website at <http://www.domino-printing.com/>
>
> ****************************************************
>
> This Email and any files transmitted with it are intended only for
> the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain
> confidential and/or privileged material. Any reading,
> redistribution, disclosure or other use of, or taking of any action
> in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other
> than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the
> intended recipient please contact the sender immediately and delete
> the material from your computer.
>
>
>
> E-mail may be susceptible to data corruption, interception, viruses
> and unauthorised amendment and Domino UK Limited does not accept
> liability for any such corruption, interception, viruses or
> amendment or their consequences.
>
> ****************************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
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> admin@david-bohm.net
>
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>
>
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Wed Sep 27 15:31:51 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 16:26:46 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Re: Bohm_Dialogue Digest, Vol 19, Issue 28
In-Reply-To: <20060928100003.8B53D2336F@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OFE0EBCC3E.D85AD72A-ON852571F6.0049E672-852571F6.004A53F7@dialogos.com>
Rodger __ Hi Franis, I think your thought of -using the linguistics of
music to reveal the assumptions of putting
meaning into words- is EXTREMELY cool!! _R
.
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:10:06 -0700
From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
Sort of like using the linguistics of music to reveal the assumptions of
putting
meaning into words.
.
.
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Wed Sep 27 15:39:33 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 16:34:23 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
Message-ID: <c82.2b163b0.324bd915@aol.com>
Thought you might be interested to see what I'm doing with this. Bear in
mind that some of my ideas don't fit neatly into Bohm's thinking, and that I
take inspiration from Stacey amongst others.
What I've done with some groups is to give them a creative story and ask
them to interpret it in music, at other times, to look at a relationship at work
and explore (and possibly change) that, again through using instruments.
Seems to me the crucial stage is some sort of facilitated discussion afterwards
to allow each person (should they wish) to talk about their own sense of what
was happening - and in the talking / questioning, sometimes further riches
get uncovered.
One of my first group experiments was to ask the group to tell a story using
music, and in that session someone used a flipchart and drew symbols for the
different things happening, and then pointed at them in order to "conduct"
the group. Interestingly they performed this piece for me - we set it up that I
walked into the room and they did a performance - that was very different,
and it felt different to the group, too. The "conductor" even left her
flipchart and stood in the middle of the group, waving her arms like a conductor,
before realising that she was better off going back to the flipchart and
pointing at that, as she had done in the "rehearsal". My interpretation of that is
that they suddenly went into thinking that the music was a "formal" event -
and perhaps I contriubted that to them by being the "audience" and walking in
expectantly. Interested also that none of them, not even the conductor, had
any sense of the "shape" of the piece. I drew it out on a graph (which your
exercise reminded me of since you talk about "peaks") and none of them had any
idea because (and again I didn't ask so this is a wild supposition) they were
so "in the moment" that they didn't see the whole.
This was probably my first real experiment with musical dialogue, and since
then I've discovered that the less I do, and the more people form the rules
for themselves, the more the group learns. I'm still experimenting.
I also ran a workshop in collaborative composition with a rather mixed group
of 3 children, one professional player and one nervous amateur player. At
the end of a short day we had a piece written by two 6-year-olds, one by the
9-year-old, and one by the group as a whole. It's different from a "jam
session" as they worked out what each individual phrase could be, and then once
they'd done a whole piece, they worked out an accompaniment for it. During the
day they also did a percussion piece - one freeform improvised one, and one
interpreting a story that they collaboratively created. I mention this because
(for the benefit of the children's parents) I put the recordings onto a web
page (just hand-written graphics, as I wanted to do this in the least possible
time) - and I thought you might be interested:
_http://www.danceofdelight.com/Gallery/harpworkshop9sept06/index.htm_
(http://www.danceofdelight.com/Gallery/harpworkshop9sept06/index.htm)
This is some basic stuff but I hope it intrigues and gives a sense of where
I am with this.
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From oenthomas at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 15:48:18 2006
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Thu Sep 28 16:43:08 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
In-Reply-To: <c82.2b163b0.324bd915@aol.com>
References: <c82.2b163b0.324bd915@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1dde854d0609270648r3908cea2s287950d3d59dcde1@mail.gmail.com>
Owen, who recently is seldom writing to this list, is intrigued by what you
describe. This reminds me of the technique of acting out a fairy tale as
promoted by "Galli the clown"
On 9/27/06, MarkHarmer@aol.com <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Thought you might be interested to see what I'm doing with this. Bear in
> mind that some of my ideas don't fit neatly into Bohm's thinking, and that I
> take inspiration from Stacey amongst others.
>
> What I've done with some groups is to give them a creative story and ask
> them to interpret it in music, at other times, to look at a relationship at
> work and explore (and possibly change) that, again through using
> instruments. Seems to me the crucial stage is some sort of facilitated
> discussion afterwards to allow each person (should they wish) to talk about
> their own sense of what was happening - and in the talking / questioning,
> sometimes further riches get uncovered.
>
> One of my first group experiments was to ask the group to tell a story
> using music, and in that session someone used a flipchart and drew symbols
> for the different things happening, and then pointed at them in order to
> "conduct" the group. Interestingly they performed this piece for me - we set
> it up that I walked into the room and they did a performance - that was very
> different, and it felt different to the group, too. The "conductor" even
> left her flipchart and stood in the middle of the group, waving her arms
> like a conductor, before realising that she was better off going back to the
> flipchart and pointing at that, as she had done in the "rehearsal". My
> interpretation of that is that they suddenly went into thinking that the
> music was a "formal" event - and perhaps I contriubted that to them by being
> the "audience" and walking in expectantly. Interested also that none of
> them, not even the conductor, had any sense of the "shape" of the piece. I
> drew it out on a graph (which your exercise reminded me of since you talk
> about "peaks") and none of them had any idea because (and again I didn't ask
> so this is a wild supposition) they were so "in the moment" that they didn't
> see the whole.
>
> This was probably my first real experiment with musical dialogue, and
> since then I've discovered that the less I do, and the more people form the
> rules for themselves, the more the group learns. I'm still experimenting.
>
> I also ran a workshop in collaborative composition with a rather mixed
> group of 3 children, one professional player and one nervous amateur player.
> At the end of a short day we had a piece written by two 6-year-olds, one
> by the 9-year-old, and one by the group as a whole. It's different from a
> "jam session" as they worked out what each individual phrase could be, and
> then once they'd done a whole piece, they worked out an accompaniment for
> it. During the day they also did a percussion piece - one freeform
> improvised one, and one interpreting a story that they collaboratively
> created. I mention this because (for the benefit of the children's parents)
> I put the recordings onto a web page (just hand-written graphics, as I
> wanted to do this in the least possible time) - and I thought you might be
> interested:
>
> http://www.danceofdelight.com/Gallery/harpworkshop9sept06/index.htm
>
> This is some basic stuff but I hope it intrigues and gives a sense of
> where I am with this.
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
--
We are connected
Owen
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Wed Sep 27 16:02:14 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 16:59:32 2006
Subject: AW: AW: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Message-ID: <20060927.100228.3964.41.ae.dropper@juno.com>
I think, this 'suspension' thing could be a bit tricky: If you try to do
it
consciously, deliberately, then it turns into a subtle form of
suppression.
I mean, when suspension is done consciously then it interrupt something,
or
interferes with something. But there is a kind of suspension that feels
more
like a natural side-effect of proprioception of thought ('proprioception'
in
the sense of Bohm). I guess, when I talk about suspension, I mean it as a
side-effect of proprioception, not as a deliberate act of consciousness.
william
Suspension, being either the alternative or the adjunct,
to the defense/repression* of an assumption, seems to occur spontaneously
at either one of two levels, the first resulting from the awareness**
that 'waiting' will clarify the simple confusion in thought.
The second occurrence is on the 'heels' of a defense
reflex when there is awareness** of the nature of
the reflex, i.e., awareness of the consequences***
of the 'drawing' of the conclusion based on the
"accomplished" reflex.
*repression is the passive form of defense.
**proprioceptive awareness.
***self - sustaining confusion or 'premature articulation',
or tunnel vision, or 'premature closure', etc..
pat
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From earthsky at tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 27 16:24:45 2006
From: earthsky at tiscali.co.uk (Gill Wyatt)
Date: Thu Sep 28 17:22:44 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <OFD82301ED.425BDC81-ON852571F5.0043E72C-852571F5.00487C6C@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C140151E.967F%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi Rodger,
Yes I do understand about choosing ... this discussion group is quite
prolific!! Thanks for the welcome.
I love acknowledging the energetic level and I don't know many people who
can/will acknowledge this level. What you say makes sense to me ... an
aikido sensei instructor or a facilitator if they have a clear understanding
of energy - ki seems to creates a possibility for participants to unfold
more of their potential - unexpected things can occur. (I know you are
talking about aikido and I am talking about groups of people at workshops or
conferences, that difference is interesting). My original form of
facilitation was person-centred (Carl Rogers's work) and a basic assumption
of this theoretical approach is that 'given a certain environment' people
are their own best experts and they will actualise ie their is a growth
tendency. This means that a group can be trusted to do next what is needed.
I certainly think it is a very powerful mix when somebody both trusts a
group and has a clear understanding of energy - ki. I guess, its what I aim
for, and know I often fall short of .... but sometimes it does work for the
whole group ...
Gill
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:11:44 -0400
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Rodger __Hi Gill, welcome! Thanks for re-entering your words, I remember
having to make a choice about which topic to respond to when I first read
them.
As an amateur musician I prove to be hopelessly incapable, except for
improv, which left out sing-alongs at the campfire and parties. Eventually I
found myself playing along side some accomplished musicians who were
inclined toward improv and so discovered music did include something other
than scores and sheets.
My facilitating is similar to my incompetence as a musician -- mainly
applying sensitivity to subtle willing of people down a garden path, rather
than seeking to gain specific outcomes.
Re: the aikido sensei -instructor- plays a critical part in whatever level
of experience is made possible to the students. If the instructor practices
with a clear understanding of -ki-, the energy, then unexplainable actions
can be witnessed. In witnessing the unexplainable students open to new
possibilities in themselves, especially if they gain understanding of how
its done.
But for me, practicing the unexplainable wouldn't have been enough to keep
me in the dojo -- it was the trust I felt as a result of the instructors
non-competitive nature -- I think that is what gave the orientation point
for collective/group harmony.
And from what I saw, I think the weighty times happened when our karate
and/or jujitsu black belt people had it in mind to prove how much more
effective their discipline was than aikido. _R
.
.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:03:59 +0100
From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
.
I wrote my Masters dissertation about this. And I'd agree one person can
prevent it occurring.
.
.
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From earthsky at tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 27 16:24:45 2006
From: earthsky at tiscali.co.uk (Gill Wyatt)
Date: Thu Sep 28 17:23:32 2006
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <C13F4047.73AC%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <C1401771.9680%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Thanks Lynne.
I kinda like how different people use words even though it makes
communications rather difficult. I often use a word because it can hint at
something I am trying to express ... one word might hint at one quality and
another might hint at at another and they all enable me to lean into my
expierence gentlely wooing it to unfold a little more.
Respect for me means something of recognising the other person's sovereignty
- the 'right' to be who they are. It also has some aspect of acceptance,
caring and warmth and it can simply mean 'common old fashioned courtesy'
(I'm sorry I've forgotten who said that ... there is so much mail most
days!!). And I guess it translates into the way we listen and the way we
talk and hanging in there when things go wrong. I know several people have
said alements of all of this.
Gill
From: Lynne Tolk <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:38:31 -0600
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Gill,
My apologies. Yes, I?m American, but that?s no excuse. I continually run
into people leaving the ?e? off my own name (& you got it right!). I will
say that I?ve been reading and responding to email late at night the last
few weeks, as I?m spending a lot of time taking care of my new grandson, so
my eyes and brain are tired.
I wasn?t really clear about what I meant by respect, either. In the group I
mentioned, we agreed in advance to listen carefully to each others? views,
in order to understand, while withholding judgment. The respect you
mention here grew out of that.
Lynne
On 9/26/06 5:33 AM, "Gill Wyatt" <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Lynne,
Yes My experience has been that the group has come to respect each other
when the group has been able to create shared understandngs and meanings ...
its not where they have necessarily started but somewhere there is a shift
to respecting and caring for each other, often as a result of exploring
assumptions and discovering them and experiencing the feelings that are
trapped within them. Once we are engaged in checking assumptions and melting
them, people's presence seems to deepen or expand and maybe our
communication comes from the heart a little more.
By the way, are you American? I wonder as sometimes my name gets changed
from Gill (short for Gillian) to Gil and usually its Americans (smile)!!
Gill
From: Lynne Tolk <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:02:33 -0600
To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Hi Gil,
I have also done facilitation, and also had the experience seeing a group
shift into some sort of shared understanding that impressed all of us. This
is one reason I?ve been exploring Bohm?s thought and joined this group. One
thing that seemed important to the experience of that group was an agreement
to approach each other with great respect. I have wondered, myself, if a
group can come to any kind of shared understanding (not needing agreement)
without this kind of respect.
I remember reading (don?t remember where) that Bohm was asked about some
groups not working, and he said the members need to have done their homework
? i.e. studied and understood the principles behind such dialogue (I would
think in particular the principle of suspension of assumptions).
Lynne
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Wed Sep 27 16:24:38 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 17:27:27 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
Message-ID: <20060927.103118.3964.42.ae.dropper@juno.com>
But Pat used to have all the archives, but her computer is gone now, so
she can't pull it up for you. That's a loss for all of us. (Franis)
Franis, I thought it was don who had archives. I haven't saved
more than a month or two of this stuff for about 8 years. Actually,
I DO still have a couple of diskettes from the early days.
pat
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Wed Sep 27 16:49:02 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Thu Sep 28 17:43:56 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
In-Reply-To: <c82.2b163b0.324bd915@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C140079E.32B8%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Mark ? My work with improvisation is very different. I am very much
concerned with all the structures of music and how they relate to produce a
composition. My biggest issues are that structure is not taught in a
meaningful way, and that improvisation is not understood and valued for the
great art it is. k
On 9/27/06 9:39 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Thought you might be interested to see what I'm doing with this. Bear in mind
> that some of my ideas don't fit neatly into Bohm's thinking, and that I take
> inspiration from Stacey amongst others.
>
> What I've done with some groups is to give them a creative story and ask them
> to interpret it in music, at other times, to look at a relationship at work
> and explore (and possibly change) that, again through using instruments. Seems
> to me the crucial stage is some sort of facilitated discussion afterwards to
> allow each person (should they wish) to talk about their own sense of what was
> happening - and in the talking / questioning, sometimes further riches get
> uncovered.
>
> One of my first group experiments was to ask the group to tell a story using
> music, and in that session someone used a flipchart and drew symbols for the
> different things happening, and then pointed at them in order to "conduct" the
> group. Interestingly they performed this piece for me - we set it up that I
> walked into the room and they did a performance - that was very different, and
> it felt different to the group, too. The "conductor" even left her flipchart
> and stood in the middle of the group, waving her arms like a conductor, before
> realising that she was better off going back to the flipchart and pointing at
> that, as she had done in the "rehearsal". My interpretation of that is that
> they suddenly went into thinking that the music was a "formal" event - and
> perhaps I contriubted that to them by being the "audience" and walking in
> expectantly. Interested also that none of them, not even the conductor, had
> any sense of the "shape" of the piece. I drew it out on a graph (which your
> exercise reminded me of since you talk about "peaks") and none of them had any
> idea because (and again I didn't ask so this is a wild supposition) they were
> so "in the moment" that they didn't see the whole.
>
> This was probably my first real experiment with musical dialogue, and since
> then I've discovered that the less I do, and the more people form the rules
> for themselves, the more the group learns. I'm still experimenting.
>
> I also ran a workshop in collaborative composition with a rather mixed group
> of 3 children, one professional player and one nervous amateur player. At the
> end of a short day we had a piece written by two 6-year-olds, one by the
> 9-year-old, and one by the group as a whole. It's different from a "jam
> session" as they worked out what each individual phrase could be, and then
> once they'd done a whole piece, they worked out an accompaniment for it.
> During the day they also did a percussion piece - one freeform improvised one,
> and one interpreting a story that they collaboratively created. I mention this
> because (for the benefit of the children's parents) I put the recordings onto
> a web page (just hand-written graphics, as I wanted to do this in the least
> possible time) - and I thought you might be interested:
>
> http://www.danceofdelight.com/Gallery/harpworkshop9sept06/index.htm
>
> This is some basic stuff but I hope it intrigues and gives a sense of where I
> am with this.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Wed Sep 27 16:52:27 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 17:50:10 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <20060927.105337.3964.44.ae.dropper@juno.com>
"Hating Dialogue" comes in two forms. One is when it is understood enough
to know that it is the questioning of assumptions and beliefs. We hate
that because these are what constitute [the thought(s) of] "who and what
we are" (and even this "hating" is one such constituent).
The second form of "hating" comes in not understanding
what is being proposed. Especially in terms of looking
at the function of thought. One then gets caught up
in all of the discomforts of boredom, anger, frustration,
the feelings based on the content of thought, without the
realization that these are the valuable "raw material" that
enable us to look at the function of thought.
So this excludes from the experiment most of the people
who understand it, and most of the people who don't understand
it, and most of the people who both do and don't understand it.
pat
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Wed Sep 27 16:58:49 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Thu Sep 28 17:53:39 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] The symbolic and the strategic
In-Reply-To: <91066E2C-1402-42E9-9BF1-CA7FF107C1C3@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C14009E9.32B9%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
I didn't mean to use "the sound of music" itself, but that could work. I
just don't know how to use a computer for that. k
On 9/26/06 11:26 AM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I agree, no topics should be excluded, but the technology to include
> the actual media does limit us. It seems to me that a group that
> included music, pictures, and talk would require a Web2 site
> something like a combination of Flicker, Youtube, and Myspace along
> with a good search engine with overlapping comments threads that
> would include pictures, sounds, and voices. But that is way beyond an
> e-mail list such as this.
>
> However, if you or anyone you know wants to put such a site together,
> please let me know, I would certainly want to join
>
> don
>
> On 26 Sep 2006, at 13:28, Kathryn Arizmendi wrote:
>
>> There are many kinds of blocks. About everything including music.
>> Reread
>> Mark, for instance. I suggest its possibly one of the blocks to
>> exclude any
>> topic.
>>
>>
>> On 9/26/06 5:40 AM, "kirsten schneide"
>> <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Donf:
>>>> Sorry, Kathy. I too like music but Bohm dialogue has always been
>>>> primarily
>>>> about gaining insight into the blocks
>>>
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~ScottValley/15980e00.jpg
>>>
>>> that make verbal
>>>> communication, especially when it is about subjects that are
>>>> important to
>>>> us, so prone to incoherence. And bla bla bla
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Love & Translations, Kirsten
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-
>>> day trial!
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?
>>> href=http://www.w
>>> indowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Wed Sep 27 17:13:51 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 18:08:48 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death - instinct
In-Reply-To: <20060928100003.8B53D2336F@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF16D09632.FCD1954F-ON852571F6.004B7741-852571F6.0053AA95@dialogos.com>
Rodger __From what I've seen, the one thing people fear almost as much as
death is change. Change of self-image that has not been predetermined.
Oddly enough, this also ties in with Zoes quiry about death-instinct. Some
ex-soldiers/ officers and civilians I know who have had near death
experience are among the most open minded individuals I know. I think a
resolve happened concerning fears behind the ego efforts to preserve
self-images.
In more superficial traumas, take your pick of worse embarrassment or non
life-threatening crisis, many become overwhelmed by how they might be seen
by others. And a reality of a changed self-image then takes form largely
through their own self-projection.
This kind of superficial transition is more of a tantrum in comparison to
facing actual death and revelations of self or life that can occur then.
Alternatively, just like with dialogue, a superficial trauma can actually
provide a doorway to a similar fading of all self-images, until awareness
of self cannot be identified through images -- very similar to when one is
not so much facing the fear of death, but facing death itself.
Which in this sense can be described as a greatly enhanced moment of
awareness of Life. _R
.
.
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:38:26 +0100
From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
Nor is it mine. But all over the world we hear calls for more dialogue and
they just don't happen, which leads me
to believe that if they don't hate it, then they fear it.
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Wed Sep 27 17:28:48 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 18:23:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: garden path
In-Reply-To: <20060928100003.8B53D2336F@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OFC5C5B1FD.7BB879CE-ON852571F6.0053EA3D-852571F6.005508F5@dialogos.com>
Rodger __yesterday I wrote -My facilitating is similar to my incompetence
as a musician, mainly applying sensitivity to subtle willing of people down
a garden path, rather than seeking to gain specific outcomes-.
The sentence does not communicate well, what I meant. What I meant was,
UNLESS I have the responsibility to acheive a specific outcome which all
parties have an awareness of - I tend to be oversensitive to any intent
which is leading people down a garden path. Perhaps this stems from my
preference to enter dialogue free of overt pre-set agenda. _R
.
.Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:11:44 -0400
From: Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com
Subject: Subject: RE: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
My facilitating is similar to my incompetence as a musician -- mainly
applying sensitivity to subtle willing of people down a garden path, rather
than seeking to gain specific outcomes.
.
.
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Wed Sep 27 17:31:01 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 18:25:53 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
Message-ID: <4c0.7625cf80.324bf335@aol.com>
The main experiences I've had with "learning" improvisation are the great
French romantic school around the 1900s - particularly the work of Vierne and
later Dufufle / Dupre, and the folk tradition where the music's harmony /
melody is constantly re-explored within the boundaries of the existing "tune". I
don't think in my present group work I get very near to "structure" as a
formal, given thing which pre-exists the group's conversation, because the
structure emerges in the group's work. We could explore what structures come out of
the work, I suppose, but not something I've particularly done...yet! For
"non-musicians" I'm not currently working with melody or harmony, just rhythm.
It intrigues me to see what we could do with melody/harmony in groups but I'm
not really there yet - there's too much I want to explore before that.
Mark ? My work with improvisation is very different. I am very much
concerned with all the structures of music and how they relate to produce a
composition. My biggest issues are that structure is not taught in a meaningful way,
and that improvisation is not understood and valued for the great art it is.
k
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 17:32:17 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Thu Sep 28 18:27:45 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
In-Reply-To: <20060927.103118.3964.42.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20060927.103118.3964.42.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <AC96C11F-C1AE-4260-B7BD-061632353F9E@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Franis, what are you looking for? I will try to find it.
don
On 27 Sep 2006, at 15:24, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
> But Pat used to have all the archives, but her computer is gone
> now, so
> she can't pull it up for you. That's a loss for all of us. (Franis)
>
> Franis, I thought it was don who had archives. I haven't saved
> more than a month or two of this stuff for about 8 years. Actually,
> I DO still have a couple of diskettes from the early days.
>
> pat
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 17:47:44 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Thu Sep 28 18:42:33 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death - instinct
In-Reply-To: <OF16D09632.FCD1954F-ON852571F6.004B7741-852571F6.0053AA95@dialogos.com>
References: <OF16D09632.FCD1954F-ON852571F6.004B7741-852571F6.0053AA95@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <19CC5251-A06C-4067-A29C-732EDC514BB6@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
I'm glad you picked up on this, Rodger. A number ot times the topic
of death has been raised here, and hardly anyone has been prepared to
explore its meaning, and what the consequences of its various meaning
might be. So maybe we can try again. And then there is this notion of
the death instinct raised by Zoe and also, I believe, Kirsten.
This latter is from Freud:
Here is a description of it
from Wikipedia:
The most curious feature of highly unpleasant experiences for Freud
was that subjects often tended to repeat or re-enact them. This
appeared to violate the "pleasure principle," the drive of an
individual to maximize his or her pleasure. Freud found this
repetition of unpleasant events in the most ordinary of cirumstances,
even in children's play (such as the celebrated Fort/Da
("Here"/"Gone") game played by Freud's grandson). After hypothesizing
a number of causes (particularly the idea that we repeat traumatic
events in order to master them after the fact), Freud considered the
existence of a fundamental death wish or death instinct, referring to
an individual's own need to die. Organisms, according to this idea,
were driven to return to a pre-organic, inanimate state?but they
wished to do so in their own way. Such a line of thought must be
considered as belonging to a cosmological rather than a scientifical
framework, and is actually of great antiquity as can be seen in the
only surviving fragment of Anaximander, which more or less states the
same idea in more general albeit poetical terms.
In psychoanalytical theory, the death instinct (or death drive)
opposes Eros. The "death instinct" signals a desire to give up the
struggle of life and return to quiescence and the grave. This should
not be confused with a similar urge/force destrudo.
I am not certain that Freud's interpretation of the phenomenon is the
only possible one. I think the meaning principle might have a part to
play too.
But there is certainly something in the subject that is worth
exploring. I know that you, Rodger, have had a close encounter with
death as have I. What it did for us, is worth looking at, but
further, what about those who haven't but who know about it from others?
Anyway this is a start.
don
On 27 Sep 2006, at 16:13, Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com wrote:
> Rodger __From what I've seen, the one thing people fear almost as
> much as death is change. Change of self-image that has not been
> predetermined.
>
> Oddly enough, this also ties in with Zoes quiry about death-
> instinct. Some ex-soldiers/ officers and civilians I know who have
> had near death experience are among the most open minded
> individuals I know. I think a resolve happened concerning fears
> behind the ego efforts to preserve self-images.
>
> In more superficial traumas, take your pick of worse embarrassment
> or non life-threatening crisis, many become overwhelmed by how they
> might be seen by others. And a reality of a changed self-image then
> takes form largely through their own self-projection.
>
> This kind of superficial transition is more of a tantrum in
> comparison to facing actual death and revelations of self or life
> that can occur then.
>
> Alternatively, just like with dialogue, a superficial trauma can
> actually provide a doorway to a similar fading of all self-images,
> until awareness of self cannot be identified through images -- very
> similar to when one is not so much facing the fear of death, but
> facing death itself.
>
> Which in this sense can be described as a greatly enhanced moment
> of awareness of Life. _R
> .
> .
> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:38:26 +0100
> From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> .
> Nor is it mine. But all over the world we hear calls for more
> dialogue and they just don't happen, which leads me
> to believe that if they don't hate it, then they fear it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Wed Sep 27 17:48:21 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Thu Sep 28 18:43:14 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <20060925.210850.1272.3.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C1401585.32C1%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Good Morning, Francis -
I definitely agree that Bohm Dialog and improvisation are similar. Perhaps
more so than we realize. You mentioned
?...A general improvisational form such as blues or jazz does not exist in
> speaking circles?.
I hear the following assumption underlying that statement - all music uses
the same ?built in? structure . Please correct me if that assumption is
inaccurate, and let me know in what way I have misinterpreted - Also,
Please keep in mind that although my statements today are a product of a lot
of input, the ideas will be constantly evolving, depending on more input.
That said - here is my response.
Music actually has myriad, not a single, ?built in? - relationships,
patterns, structures, just as the universe does. Just as word language does.
The composer-improviser can set up his or her own form if they are aware of
and fluent in musical vocabulary and syntax, and the relationships among all
the various structures, and not inhibited about doing it. Blues and jazz
with their structures are only two of those manifestations. All music
shares the same raw materials, and many of the same structures, but not all
of its manifestations use the same structural model. Different cultures and
historical eras have made different connections and meanings.
If you are referring to the fact that the Blues and Jazz idioms
pretty much set up a single musical structure they call ?form?, and the
improvisers create variations on that form ? yes. But all music doesn't
work that way. (There are other differences as well.) Musical structure in
classical music, as one example, isn?t restricted to one general form. Not
only has it developed many ways of creating different forms from its various
folded in structures, one is free to find other ways of linking musical
materials to create new ones. Also, the development of musical language
parallels the interaction, and ideas of different cultures, resulting in the
evolving of different pov?s i.e. styles, patterns, individual insights that
comprise them, and attitudes towards improvisation.
So, my point is that a general improvisational form does not automatically
exist in all musical circumstances, and those that exist do not all work on
a rigid, never changing basis. There are many forms, currently existent as
well as potential, waiting for someone to create, vary, and use them. Put
in the context of ensemble improvisation, that brings us even closer to
Bohm-style dialog.
Best, k
On 9/25/06 11:15 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> Kathy & Mark,
> The in-person act of Bohm Dialogue is similiar to improvisation in the
> context/forum of group interaction with spoken language as the activity.
> A general improvisational form such as blues or jazz does not exist in
> speaking circles, so, in a sense, Bohm-style Dialogue is a sort of
> improvisational speaking circle.
> - Franis
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 00:26:49 +0200 "william" <w@david-bohm.net> writes:
>>
>> MarkHarmer
>>> ... I also think that the group can work with
>>> some sort of intention, even a "task" (Bohm
>>> says having a task will undermine the process
>>> of dialogue, which, in "On Dialogue" is 'to
>>> discover how thought works'). I personally have
>>> a bit more trouble with not having a task as
>>> surely, pragmatically, you'd want to explore
>>> something specific with a group?
>>
>> Well, I would say, wanting to explore something specific is not
>> compatible
>> with Bohm's idea of dialogue. It would indeed undermine the process.
>> It
>> would undermine the discovery aspect of it. When you explore
>> something
>> specific then that's what you'll find, but 'discovery' means
>> something else;
>> it means you don't know what you are going to find. It is going to
>> be a
>> surprise...
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Wed Sep 27 17:57:52 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Thu Sep 28 18:52:42 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
In-Reply-To: <4c0.7625cf80.324bf335@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C14017C0.32C4%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
That?s similar to what jazz does. It?s not the only way. The starting
point for everything, as I see it, is rhythm. To me, ?learning?
improvisation means becoming aware of the folded in structures of music, how
they work together, how one can use them to create music ? then doing it ?
mindful of looking for new connections. Have you ever explored Dalcroze
Eurhythmics ? not Steiner Eurhythmy. Its scope and practice have narrowed
greatly since its inception, but if one gets hold of the original ideas (not
easily done, unfortunately), it?s the closest I?ve come to a starting place.
Its original aim was improvisation. k
On 9/27/06 11:31 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> The main experiences I've had with "learning" improvisation are the great
> French romantic school around the 1900s - particularly the work of Vierne and
> later Dufufle / Dupre, and the folk tradition where the music's harmony /
> melody is constantly re-explored within the boundaries of the existing "tune".
> I don't think in my present group work I get very near to "structure" as a
> formal, given thing which pre-exists the group's conversation, because the
> structure emerges in the group's work. We could explore what structures come
> out of the work, I suppose, but not something I've particularly done...yet!
> For "non-musicians" I'm not currently working with melody or harmony, just
> rhythm. It intrigues me to see what we could do with melody/harmony in groups
> but I'm not really there yet - there's too much I want to explore before that.
>> Mark ? My work with improvisation is very different. I am very much
>> concerned with all the structures of music and how they relate to produce a
>> composition. My biggest issues are that structure is not taught in a
>> meaningful way, and that improvisation is not understood and valued for the
>> great art it is. k
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Wed Sep 27 18:12:21 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 19:07:17 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
Message-ID: <4a6.8ce7ab5.324bfce5@aol.com>
I think you're right about the starting point being rhythm - so in a way I'm
quite pleased that this is my starting point too. I have come across Steiner
Eurythmy but not Dalcroze. Sounds interesting - I'll have a surf to see what
there is on the web, but if you have any suggested links that would be great
too - from what you say about a starting-place it could be right up my street.
m
That?s similar to what jazz does. It?s not the only way. The starting
point for everything, as I see it, is rhythm. To me, ?learning? improvisation
means becoming aware of the folded in structures of music, how they work
together, how one can use them to create music ? then doing it ? mindful of
looking for new connections. Have you ever explored Dalcroze Eurhythmics ? not
Steiner Eurhythmy. Its scope and practice have narrowed greatly since its
inception, but if one gets hold of the original ideas (not easily done,
unfortunately), it?s the closest I?ve come to a starting place. Its original aim
was improvisation. k
On 9/27/06 11:31 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
The main experiences I've had with "learning" improvisation are the great
French romantic school around the 1900s - particularly the work of Vierne and
later Dufufle / Dupre, and the folk tradition where the music's harmony /
melody is constantly re-explored within the boundaries of the existing "tune". I
don't think in my present group work I get very near to "structure" as a
formal, given thing which pre-exists the group's conversation, because the
structure emerges in the group's work. We could explore what structures come out
of the work, I suppose, but not something I've particularly done...yet! For
"non-musicians" I'm not currently working with melody or harmony, just rhythm.
It intrigues me to see what we could do with melody/harmony in groups but I'm
not really there yet - there's too much I want to explore before that.
Mark ? My work with improvisation is very different. I am very much
concerned with all the structures of music and how they relate to produce a
composition. My biggest issues are that structure is not taught in a meaningful
way, and that improvisation is not understood and valued for the great art it
is. k
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 18:20:16 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Thu Sep 28 19:15:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
In-Reply-To: <4c0.7625cf80.324bf335@aol.com>
References: <4c0.7625cf80.324bf335@aol.com>
Message-ID: <015810C1-4353-4A60-BE11-21270A6AA331@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
i am not a musician, but I did once have a remarkable experience of
not-quite group improvisation with percussion instruments. I was at a
party in New York given by some friends in Arica, a sufi oriented
school. One of our hosts was a master hand drummer who had studied
with masters in Ghana. He had a whole bunch of different sizes and
shapes of drums spread out in one side of the room. Each of the
guests was invited to choose a drum, then he or she was given a
rhythm or pattern. We were to simply maintain our own pattern. I
guess there were around ten or twelve of us and as we each started,
one at time, the experience became richer and more magical. By the
time we were all in it together it was amazing. And then our leader
came in and began to add, I don't know what you'd call it, grace
notes or, if such could be, something equivalent to a melody line.
This was may twenty five years ago and I will never forget it.
don
On 27 Sep 2006, at 16:31, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
> The main experiences I've had with "learning" improvisation are the
> great French romantic school around the 1900s - particularly the
> work of Vierne and later Dufufle / Dupre, and the folk tradition
> where the music's harmony / melody is constantly re-explored within
> the boundaries of the existing "tune". I don't think in my present
> group work I get very near to "structure" as a formal, given thing
> which pre-exists the group's conversation, because the structure
> emerges in the group's work. We could explore what structures come
> out of the work, I suppose, but not something I've particularly
> done...yet! For "non-musicians" I'm not currently working with
> melody or harmony, just rhythm. It intrigues me to see what we
> could do with melody/harmony in groups but I'm not really there yet
> - there's too much I want to explore before that.
> Mark ? My work with improvisation is very different. I am very
> much concerned with all the structures of music and how they relate
> to produce a composition. My biggest issues are that structure is
> not taught in a meaningful way, and that improvisation is not
> understood and valued for the great art it is. k
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Wed Sep 27 18:52:11 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Thu Sep 28 19:47:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
In-Reply-To: <4a6.8ce7ab5.324bfce5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C140247B.32D1%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
The rhythm of change, the natural world and its structures are replicated in
music. Music is taught through physical movement, an added perceptual
dimension. The trick is to experience pattern and structure in tones as
well as meter and note values, then patterns - structure in how all musical
elements interact. That?s one place Eurhythmics went astray. The stuff on
the web isn?t the original concept. Its history yields some interesting
insights. The original system has been dismembered, and part of it is not
even used anymore. Out of print, too. Fortunately, I have it. One essay
that would really interest you is in a back publication of Le rythme, and
not indexed. I have it somewhere, but finding it is a challenge. When I
come across it again, I?ll let you know. It was written by Henrietta
Rosenstrauch, a first generation Dalcroze student. Unfortunately, the first
and second world wars changed the course of its development.
Do you mind telling me where you are? I might be able to point you towards
a person. But much of what I have learned comes from years of experiencing
Eurhythmics, plus a lot of reading and thinking. People keep telling me I
must write, because there are no guides out there to the information I have
come across and the way I have put it together.
I was privileged to have a marvellous education mentor, now deceased, who
put Bohm?s ideas into a theory of education that started with pre-K. So I
have meshed the two into my own pov. And I continue to search, as many of
us do.
Upton Sinclair wrote ?World?s End 1?, historical fiction exploring the
humanistic precepts of Eurhythmics as the protagonist confronts the ?real
world? of WW1. You might enjoy it. k
On 9/27/06 12:12 PM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> I think you're right about the starting point being rhythm - so in a way I'm
> quite pleased that this is my starting point too. I have come across Steiner
> Eurythmy but not Dalcroze. Sounds interesting - I'll have a surf to see what
> there is on the web, but if you have any suggested links that would be great
> too - from what you say about a starting-place it could be right up my street.
>
> m
>> That?s similar to what jazz does. It?s not the only way. The starting
>> point for everything, as I see it, is rhythm. To me, ?learning?
>> improvisation means becoming aware of the folded in structures of music, how
>> they work together, how one can use them to create music ? then doing it ?
>> mindful of looking for new connections. Have you ever explored Dalcroze
>> Eurhythmics ? not Steiner Eurhythmy. Its scope and practice have narrowed
>> greatly since its inception, but if one gets hold of the original ideas (not
>> easily done, unfortunately), it?s the closest I?ve come to a starting place.
>> Its original aim was improvisation. k
>>
>>
>> On 9/27/06 11:31 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The main experiences I've had with "learning" improvisation are the great
>>> French romantic school around the 1900s - particularly the work of Vierne
>>> and later Dufufle / Dupre, and the folk tradition where the music's harmony
>>> / melody is constantly re-explored within the boundaries of the existing
>>> "tune". I don't think in my present group work I get very near to
>>> "structure" as a formal, given thing which pre-exists the group's
>>> conversation, because the structure emerges in the group's work. We could
>>> explore what structures come out of the work, I suppose, but not something
>>> I've particularly done...yet! For "non-musicians" I'm not currently working
>>> with melody or harmony, just rhythm. It intrigues me to see what we could
>>> do with melody/harmony in groups but I'm not really there yet - there's too
>>> much I want to explore before that.
>>>
>>>> Mark ? My work with improvisation is very different. I am very much
>>>> concerned with all the structures of music and how they relate to produce
>>>> a composition. My biggest issues are that structure is not taught in a
>>>> meaningful way, and that improvisation is not understood and valued for
>>>> the great art it is. k
>
> **********************
>
> Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible Incredibows
> in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on payment, there's
> free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your
> complete piece of mind. Visit http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk
> <http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/> and you'll find out why our customers love
> us!
>
> Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece celtic
> band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK, Ireland,
> Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at
> http://www.celtmusic.co.uk <http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/>
>
> Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe
> it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children will
> get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime of
> music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at http://www.musicgarden.co.uk
> <http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/>
>
> NEW!
>
> What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About
> leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For
> organisational consulting and group work with a sound difference, see
> http://www.yourmusic.biz <http://www.yourmusic.biz/> - building on 24 years
> of successful organisational learning!
>
> COMING SOON
>
> Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and
> fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop. Fabulous
> frogs, delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at
> http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk <http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Wed Sep 27 18:53:47 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 19:48:40 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
Message-ID: <422.29d1d400.324c069b@aol.com>
Hi Don,
That's great to hear - it must have been special to be so memorable. There's
also I think an opportunity for people to explore agency/communion as part
of a music group, and that can be an incredibly powerful experience- I'm still
looking into the theory behind this but I think it relates to id and
superego. Any Freud experts out there??!
i am not a musician, but I did once have a remarkable experience of
not-quite group improvisation with percussion instruments. I was at a party in New
York given by some friends in Arica, a sufi oriented school. One of our hosts
was a master hand drummer who had studied with masters in Ghana. He had a
whole bunch of different sizes and shapes of drums spread out in one side of the
room. Each of the guests was invited to choose a drum, then he or she was
given a rhythm or pattern. We were to simply maintain our own pattern. I guess
there were around ten or twelve of us and as we each started, one at time, the
experience became richer and more magical. By the time we were all in it
together it was amazing. And then our leader came in and began to add, I don't
know what you'd call it, grace notes or, if such could be, something
equivalent to a melody line. This was may twenty five years ago and I will never
forget it.
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Wed Sep 27 18:58:14 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Thu Sep 28 19:53:06 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
In-Reply-To: <015810C1-4353-4A60-BE11-21270A6AA331@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C14025E6.32D4%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Such an experience is unforgettable. And African drumming is incredible.
Holding your own in such complexity is a remarkable accomplishment. Imagine
letting go and making up your own pattern to add! I hope the school still
exists. I?m going to look it up. k
On 9/27/06 12:20 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> i am not a musician, but I did once have a remarkable experience of not-quite
> group improvisation with percussion instruments. I was at a party in New York
> given by some friends in Arica, a sufi oriented school. One of our hosts was a
> master hand drummer who had studied with masters in Ghana. He had a whole
> bunch of different sizes and shapes of drums spread out in one side of the
> room. Each of the guests was invited to choose a drum, then he or she was
> given a rhythm or pattern. We were to simply maintain our own pattern. I guess
> there were around ten or twelve of us and as we each started, one at time, the
> experience became richer and more magical. By the time we were all in it
> together it was amazing. And then our leader came in and began to add, I don't
> know what you'd call it, grace notes or, if such could be, something
> equivalent to a melody line. This was may twenty five years ago and I will
> never forget it.
>
> don
>
> On 27 Sep 2006, at 16:31, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> The main experiences I've had with "learning" improvisation are the great
>> French romantic school around the 1900s - particularly the work of Vierne and
>> later Dufufle / Dupre, and?the?folk tradition where the music's harmony /
>> melody?is constantly re-explored within the boundaries of the existing
>> "tune". I don't think in my present group work I get very near to "structure"
>> as a formal, given thing which pre-exists the group's conversation, because
>> the structure emerges in the group's work. We could explore what structures
>> come out of the work, I suppose, but not something I've particularly
>> done...yet!?For "non-musicians" I'm not currently working with melody or
>> harmony, just rhythm. It intrigues me to see what we could do with
>> melody/harmony in groups but I'm not really there yet - there's too much I
>> want to explore before that.
>>
>>> Mark ? My work with improvisation is very different. ?I am very much
>>> concerned with all the structures of music and how they relate to produce
>>> a composition. ?My biggest issues are that structure is not taught in a
>>> meaningful way, and that improvisation is not understood and valued for
>>> the great art it is. ?k
>>
>> ?
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Wed Sep 27 18:59:48 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 19:54:38 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
Message-ID: <c63.23d5cd1.324c0804@aol.com>
I live in Gloucestershire, UK. I'd be fascinated to read the essay - and it
sounds as if you should write. I'm also interested in the pre-k (0-5) sector
and that's where, in fact, I picked up some of my ideas about music and
organisation, through my wife's work with playschools.
I'm being overwhelmed with these riches - thank you! Shame all these emails
don't exist somewhere other than on our machines - so I think a bit of
collating and cutting and pasting is in order for me! I'm in the middle of writing a
dissertation on music and organisation (which is also about me and
organisations!) and this conversation on this group is fantastic - I'm simultaneously
holding this in my head and wrestling with my own stuff as I look at where
my practice has got to...
The rhythm of change, the natural world and its structures are replicated in
music. Music is taught through physical movement, an added perceptual
dimension. The trick is to experience pattern and structure in tones as well as
meter and note values, then patterns - structure in how all musical elements
interact. That?s one place Eurhythmics went astray. The stuff on the web isn?
t the original concept. Its history yields some interesting insights. The
original system has been dismembered, and part of it is not even used
anymore. Out of print, too. Fortunately, I have it. One essay that would really
interest you is in a back publication of Le rythme, and not indexed. I have it
somewhere, but finding it is a challenge. When I come across it again, I?ll
let you know. It was written by Henrietta Rosenstrauch, a first generation
Dalcroze student. Unfortunately, the first and second world wars changed the
course of its development.
Do you mind telling me where you are? I might be able to point you towards
a person. But much of what I have learned comes from years of experiencing
Eurhythmics, plus a lot of reading and thinking. People keep telling me I
must write, because there are no guides out there to the information I have come
across and the way I have put it together.
I was privileged to have a marvellous education mentor, now deceased, who
put Bohm?s ideas into a theory of education that started with pre-K. So I have
meshed the two into my own pov. And I continue to search, as many of us do.
Upton Sinclair wrote ?World?s End 1?, historical fiction exploring the
humanistic precepts of Eurhythmics as the protagonist confronts the ?real world?
of WW1. You might enjoy it. k
On 9/27/06 12:12 PM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
I think you're right about the starting point being rhythm - so in a way I'm
quite pleased that this is my starting point too. I have come across Steiner
Eurythmy but not Dalcroze. Sounds interesting - I'll have a surf to see what
there is on the web, but if you have any suggested links that would be great
too - from what you say about a starting-place it could be right up my
street.
m
**********************
Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible
Incredibows in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on payment,
there's free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your
complete piece of mind. Visit _http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk_
(http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/) and you'll find out why our customers love us!
Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece
celtic band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK, Ireland,
Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at
_http://www.celtmusic.co.uk_ (http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/)
Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe
it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children will
get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime of
music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at _http://www.musicgarden.co.uk_
(http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/)
NEW!
What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About
leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For organisational
consulting and group work with a sound difference, see
_http://www.yourmusic.biz_ (http://www.yourmusic.biz/) - building on 24 years of successful
organisational learning!
COMING SOON
Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and
fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop. Fabulous frogs,
delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at
_http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk_ (http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/)
-------------- next part --------------
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Wed Sep 27 19:06:15 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Thu Sep 28 20:01:07 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Music and dialogue
In-Reply-To: <c63.23d5cd1.324c0804@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C14027C7.32D6%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Mark ? I?ll get back to you. One of the first branch schools was founded in
England. Now I need to do laundry and work on improv! k
On 9/27/06 12:59 PM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> I live in Gloucestershire, UK. I'd be fascinated to read the essay - and it
> sounds as if you should write. I'm also interested in the pre-k (0-5) sector
> and that's where, in fact, I picked up some of my ideas about music and
> organisation, through my wife's work with playschools.
>
> I'm being overwhelmed with these riches - thank you! Shame all these emails
> don't exist somewhere other than on our machines - so I think a bit of
> collating and cutting and pasting is in order for me! I'm in the middle of
> writing a dissertation on music and organisation (which is also about me and
> organisations!) and this conversation on this group is fantastic - I'm
> simultaneously holding this in my head and wrestling with my own stuff as I
> look at where my practice has got to...
>> The rhythm of change, the natural world and its structures are replicated in
>> music. Music is taught through physical movement, an added perceptual
>> dimension. The trick is to experience pattern and structure in tones as
>> well as meter and note values, then patterns - structure in how all musical
>> elements interact. That?s one place Eurhythmics went astray. The stuff on
>> the web isn?t the original concept. Its history yields some interesting
>> insights. The original system has been dismembered, and part of it is not
>> even used anymore. Out of print, too. Fortunately, I have it. One essay
>> that would really interest you is in a back publication of Le rythme, and
>> not indexed. I have it somewhere, but finding it is a challenge. When I
>> come across it again, I?ll let you know. It was written by Henrietta
>> Rosenstrauch, a first generation Dalcroze student. Unfortunately, the first
>> and second world wars changed the course of its development.
>> Do you mind telling me where you are? I might be able to point you towards
>> a person. But much of what I have learned comes from years of experiencing
>> Eurhythmics, plus a lot of reading and thinking. People keep telling me I
>> must write, because there are no guides out there to the information I have
>> come across and the way I have put it together.
>> I was privileged to have a marvellous education mentor, now deceased, who
>> put Bohm?s ideas into a theory of education that started with pre-K. So I
>> have meshed the two into my own pov. And I continue to search, as many of
>> us do.
>> Upton Sinclair wrote ?World?s End 1?, historical fiction exploring the
>> humanistic precepts of Eurhythmics as the protagonist confronts the ?real
>> world? of WW1. You might enjoy it. k
>>
>>
>> On 9/27/06 12:12 PM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I think you're right about the starting point being rhythm - so in a way
>>> I'm quite pleased that this is my starting point too. I have come across
>>> Steiner Eurythmy but not Dalcroze. Sounds interesting - I'll have a surf to
>>> see what there is on the web, but if you have any suggested links that
>>> would be great too - from what you say about a starting-place it could be
>>> right up my street.
>>>
>>> m
>
> **********************
>
> Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible Incredibows
> in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on payment, there's
> free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your
> complete piece of mind. Visit http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk
> <http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/> and you'll find out why our customers love
> us!
>
> Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece celtic
> band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK, Ireland,
> Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at
> http://www.celtmusic.co.uk <http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/>
>
> Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe
> it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children will
> get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime of
> music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at http://www.musicgarden.co.uk
> <http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/>
>
> NEW!
>
> What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About
> leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For
> organisational consulting and group work with a sound difference, see
> http://www.yourmusic.biz <http://www.yourmusic.biz/> - building on 24 years
> of successful organisational learning!
>
> COMING SOON
>
> Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and
> fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop. Fabulous
> frogs, delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at
> http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk <http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From earthsky at tiscali.co.uk Wed Sep 27 16:24:46 2006
From: earthsky at tiscali.co.uk (Gill Wyatt)
Date: Thu Sep 28 20:47:44 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <63EADA4C-A012-46F8-951C-194225C7AA1B@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C1401A68.9681%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Kari/Don,
I am heartened that you don't think people 'hate' dialogue. I think there is
a fear ... yes and I have read some of Patrick's work and I've often
wondered about his use of the word 'hate' and describing it as part of the
passage the group goes through before it acheives dialogue and what he calls
'koinonia' a non-possessive fellowship/sense of community. I like much of
Patrick's work but think his Freudian roots explains how he constructs his
thoery ... no surprises there.
My experience in groups is rather that there is often a descent into chaos
after people have stopped being polite (This is different from the 'old'
group concept of storming) and each person's chaos will be of their own
making, shaped by their personality, experience etc and they might use words
like 'hate' or 'fear' and so many others.
Maybe it is this descent into chaos that people fear....
Gill
From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:38:26 +0100
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Nor is it mine. But all over the world we hear calls for more dialogue and
they just don't happen, which leads me?
to believe that if they don't hate it, then they fear it. Or, if introduced
to Bohm dialogue their enculturation, which?
tells them that everything must have a purpose and that we must progress
toward fulfilling that purpose or try
something else instead, comes into play and they leave, blaming the process.
So, I can understand the notion?
of "hating" dialogue in the sense that?Patrick deMare' describes which is a
Freudian view that a group of?
strangers greet one another in the beginning with?a kind of defensive
suspicion and concealed hatred. HIs view?
was that this?always is revealed as the group is encouraged to?move toward
dialogue and fellowship.
don
On 27 Sep 2006, at 02:02, Karilen Mays wrote:
not "my" experience either! if the human animal hates dialogue, i guess i
ain't human!?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:33:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
> the human animal HATES dialog,
Kirsten this is not my experience ... when groups experience 'true dialogue'
they are touched to their core and it seems to me people 'love' it rather
than hate it when it occurs.
What makes you say they hate it?
Gill
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 27 20:28:47 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Thu Sep 28 21:23:40 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <C1401A68.9681%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
References: <C1401A68.9681%earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <54ACF498-5155-4717-B150-79F69E0164E6@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Yes, we all wondered about the hate business. But the Freud since he
started with Freud, we didn't want to deny it because that might be
repression. My view is that Freudians understand hate differently
from us ordinary mortals. I suppose using a more Bohmian language I
suppose we could call it a subtle hate, The move from politeness to
chaos is probably a more useful description. But I am not familiar
with group "storming".
What interested me and still interests me about Bohm's "psychology"
is the emphasis that he put on the "general" or "sociocultural"
domain. It seems that most of 20th century pyschology put the onus on
the individual and that led even ot a lot of social theory to focus
on individul psychology. i notice, here on this list, to try to talk
about this sociocultural dimension is difficult. There is a kind of
leaning toward an "I am the world" rather than "the world is me" way
of seeing. Or something like that.
So far as I know he was not aware of Vygotsky and his approach
although I can only think that he would have found it, very useful.
The cold war kept both Vygotsky and my other dialogical hero, Mikhael
Bakhtin, out of site and untranslated for far too long. But he had
read a lot of Piaget who for a long while was the only wheel in the
developmental town.
Anyway, these days, the idea that we are quite literally products
of our cultures, makes it, perhaps, easier to address some of the
incoherence since, initially at least, we don't have to take it
personally. That is, if we can let go of some of the importance we
place on our individual selves.
don
On 27 Sep 2006, at 15:24, Gill Wyatt wrote:
> Kari/Don,
>
> I am heartened that you don't think people 'hate' dialogue. I think
> there is a fear ... yes and I have read some of Patrick's work and
> I've often wondered about his use of the word 'hate' and describing
> it as part of the passage the group goes through before it acheives
> dialogue and what he calls 'koinonia' a non-possessive fellowship/
> sense of community. I like much of Patrick's work but think his
> Freudian roots explains how he constructs his thoery ... no
> surprises there.
>
> My experience in groups is rather that there is often a descent
> into chaos after people have stopped being polite (This is
> different from the 'old' group concept of storming) and each
> person's chaos will be of their own making, shaped by their
> personality, experience etc and they might use words like 'hate' or
> 'fear' and so many others.
>
> Maybe it is this descent into chaos that people fear....
>
> Gill
>
> From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:38:26 +0100
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
>
> Nor is it mine. But all over the world we hear calls for more
> dialogue and they just don't happen, which leads me
> to believe that if they don't hate it, then they fear it. Or, if
> introduced to Bohm dialogue their enculturation, which
> tells them that everything must have a purpose and that we must
> progress toward fulfilling that purpose or try
> something else instead, comes into play and they leave, blaming the
> process. So, I can understand the notion
> of "hating" dialogue in the sense that Patrick deMare' describes
> which is a Freudian view that a group of
> strangers greet one another in the beginning with a kind of
> defensive suspicion and concealed hatred. HIs view
> was that this always is revealed as the group is encouraged to move
> toward dialogue and fellowship.
>
> don
>
>
> On 27 Sep 2006, at 02:02, Karilen Mays wrote:
>
>
> not "my" experience either! if the human animal hates dialogue, i
> guess i ain't human!?
>
>
> kari
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:33:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>
>
> >
> > the human animal HATES dialog,
>
> Kirsten this is not my experience ... when groups experience 'true
> dialogue'
> they are touched to their core and it seems to me people 'love' it
> rather
> than hate it when it occurs.
>
> What makes you say they hate it?
>
> Gill
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Wed Sep 27 20:43:48 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Thu Sep 28 21:38:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <548.7c23b69.324c2064@aol.com>
That's why I'm interested in what Stacey has to say about organisations,
namely that the organisation "is" the conversation; there's nothing else - his
work was influenced by Meade and others, which looked at both the gesture and
response as one act of communication, taken together. Thus the "mind" exists
in communicative interaction.
Anyway, these days, the idea that we are quite literally products of our
cultures, makes it, perhaps, easier to address some of the incoherence since,
initially at least, we don't have to take it personally. That is, if we can let
go of some of the importance we place on our individual selves.
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From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Sep 27 23:39:41 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Fri Sep 29 00:51:44 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
Message-ID: <20060927.145252.916.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
that account by Dwight about drowning would be really cool to read
again... Thanks Don! - Franis
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:32:17 +0100 Don Factor
<donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Franis, what are you looking for? I will try to find it.
>
> don
>
> On 27 Sep 2006, at 15:24, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
>
> > But Pat used to have all the archives, but her computer is gone
> > now, so
> > she can't pull it up for you. That's a loss for all of us.
> (Franis)
> >
> > Franis, I thought it was don who had archives. I haven't saved
> > more than a month or two of this stuff for about 8 years.
> Actually,
> > I DO still have a couple of diskettes from the early days.
> >
> > pat
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Sep 27 23:33:04 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Fri Sep 29 00:51:45 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <20060927.145252.916.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Yeah- More specifically, I'm thinking about that the emotional
experiences of music can reveal more about how you can use the sequences
of what you talk about to create an emotional experience that is filled
with meaning beyond words. In a sense, it's a little like learning the
skills for making a movie/a story affect people emotionally. In words,
how can you present a sequence of what you choose to talk about, and how
you talk about it to have certain emotional effects that you'd like the
meaning to carry?
It's not something many people would imagine, but there are some people
who already have made the connection that music is really another
language, with its own syntax, etc. It helps to know how to play any
instrument and to be able to do on purpose what music that you can play
specifically will emotionally affects people. Just like it helps to know
two languages well so you can compare them to reveal their differences.
My instrument designer friend Bill Wesley says that everyone agrees on
the qualities of music, so that's why he agrees that music is a language.
People differ widely on whether they want to experience any particular
quality or not that music can provide. There are many people who are very
arrogant of which music is "real music." He says they are really only
opinionated about whether they want to feel a certain way or not.
Once you start looking for these qualities of music, then you can begin
to notice what they have in common with the way people use language.
It's a very sophisticated connection that most people never imagine.
Franis
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:31:51 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
> Rodger __ Hi Franis, I think your thought of -using the linguistics
> of
> music to reveal the assumptions of putting
> meaning into words- is EXTREMELY cool!! _R
> .
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:10:06 -0700
> From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> .
> Sort of like using the linguistics of music to reveal the
> assumptions of
> putting
> meaning into words.
> .
> .
From franis_franis at juno.com Wed Sep 27 23:52:51 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Fri Sep 29 00:51:46 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
Message-ID: <20060927.145252.916.2.franis_franis@juno.com>
This is cool, Katheryn, reading your writing and how you take me along
what you say as if I do not have the experience. It makes what you're
building accessible, and is great writing.
Yes, I'm thinking of the ability to create new forms of music itself.
>People keep telling me I must write,
>because there are no guides out there
>to the information I have come across
>and the way I have put it together.
Yes! Yes! write about it! I'll read what you write and give my feedback,
if you want someone to cheer you on and make observations and
suggestions. I don't have any attachment to being the only "editor" also.
I've written extensively already about very subjective movement-related
disciplines, so I'm familiar with some of the challenges involved. -
Franis
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:48:21 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
> Good Morning, Francis -
> I definitely agree that Bohm Dialog and improvisation are similar.
> Perhaps
> more so than we realize. You mentioned
> ³...A general improvisational form such as blues or jazz does not
> exist in
> > speaking circles².
>
> I hear the following assumption underlying that statement - all
> music uses
> the same ³built in² structure . Please correct me if that
> assumption is
> inaccurate, and let me know in what way I have misinterpreted -
> Also,
> Please keep in mind that although my statements today are a product
> of a lot
> of input, the ideas will be constantly evolving, depending on more
> input.
> That said - here is my response.
>
> Music actually has myriad, not a single, ³built in² - relationships,
> patterns, structures, just as the universe does. Just as word
> language does.
> The composer-improviser can set up his or her own form if they are
> aware of
> and fluent in musical vocabulary and syntax, and the relationships
> among all
> the various structures, and not inhibited about doing it. Blues and
> jazz
> with their structures are only two of those manifestations. All
> music
> shares the same raw materials, and many of the same structures, but
> not all
> of its manifestations use the same structural model. Different
> cultures and
> historical eras have made different connections and meanings.
> If you are referring to the fact that the Blues and Jazz
> idioms
> pretty much set up a single musical structure they call ³form², and
> the
> improvisers create variations on that form yes. But all music
> doesn't
> work that way. (There are other differences as well.) Musical
> structure in
> classical music, as one example, isnıt restricted to one general
> form. Not
> only has it developed many ways of creating different forms from its
> various
> folded in structures, one is free to find other ways of linking
> musical
> materials to create new ones. Also, the development of musical
> language
> parallels the interaction, and ideas of different cultures,
> resulting in the
> evolving of different povıs i.e. styles, patterns, individual
> insights that
> comprise them, and attitudes towards improvisation.
>
> So, my point is that a general improvisational form does not
> automatically
> exist in all musical circumstances, and those that exist do not all
> work on
> a rigid, never changing basis. There are many forms, currently
> existent as
> well as potential, waiting for someone to create, vary, and use
> them. Put
> in the context of ensemble improvisation, that brings us even closer
> to
> Bohm-style dialog.
>
> Best, k
>
>
> On 9/25/06 11:15 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > Kathy & Mark,
> > The in-person act of Bohm Dialogue is similiar to improvisation in
> the
> > context/forum of group interaction with spoken language as the
> activity.
> > A general improvisational form such as blues or jazz does not
> exist in
> > speaking circles, so, in a sense, Bohm-style Dialogue is a sort of
> > improvisational speaking circle.
> > - Franis
> >
> > On T