From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 02:05:39 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 03:00:45 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <25AB709A-A6CC-4C67-8410-2327AAC18930@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F12B2A181460B4CEBF2A70BA8180@phx.gbl>
For Donf, who, a few days ago, here, in that politics-shunning forum of
"dialog", stated, paraphrased, that a fair amount of those problems "the
world" faces, are made up by journalist
'One degree and we're done for'
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19125713.300-one-degree-and-
were-done-
for.html>
27 September 2006
"Further global warming of 1 °C defines a critical threshold. Beyond
that we
will likely see changes that make Earth a different planet than the
one we
know."
So says Jim Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space
Studies
in New York. Hansen and colleagues have analysed global temperature
records
and found that surface temperatures have been increasing by an
average of
0.2 °C every decade for the past 30 years.
Donf rules!
BTW: You never told us what is important to you, old man!
Love & Warmbloodedbleeding, Kbot
>From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:27:20 +0100
>
>That's probably the case for many, but not all. I think I told the story
>before about an Iranian guy who came to fix our washing machine. He had
>been a supporter of the Ayatolla and had been a member of the
>revolutionary guard. But after a bit, he said, it all became too
>religious and mindless for him, so he left. He also mentioned that most of
>the revolutionary guard people were graduates, many with postgraduate
>degrees, but almost all in technology subjects so they were all pretty
>uneducated about the world of ideas and culture.
>
>I invited him to come along to our dialogue group which he did. But he
>thought the whole affair was pointless, not going anywhere, so he didn't
>return. I think its this idea of not wanting to waste one's time without
>at least having some fun, that puts people off. This notion of pure
>exploration would seem to many much like the religious mindlessness that
>drove this guy out of Iran and finally to London and for these, they
>could see this sort of thing as being just as hateful as anything else.
>don
>On 27 Sep 2006, at 12:02, Steve Devlin wrote:
>
>>I am guessing that the purpose of dialogue we are talking about in these
>>cases is some form of conflict resolution. One of the reasons dialogue
>>may be feared or avoided is that that resolution of conflict could
>>eradicate the purpose for one of the parties involved in the conflict.
>>Some organisations and/or individuals only have a raison d'etre while
>>conflict is underway, resolution of that conflict reduces those
>>individuals status to that of their supporters.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: bohm_dialogue-bounces@david-bohm.org [mailto:bohm_dialogue-
>>bounces@david-bohm.org] On Behalf Of Don Factor
>>Sent: 27 September 2006 09:38
>>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>>
>>Nor is it mine. But all over the world we hear calls for more dialogue
>>and they just don't happen, which leads me
>>to believe that if they don't hate it, then they fear it. Or, if
>>introduced to Bohm dialogue their enculturation, which
>>tells them that everything must have a purpose and that we must progress
>>toward fulfilling that purpose or try
>>something else instead, comes into play and they leave, blaming the
>>process. So, I can understand the notion
>>of "hating" dialogue in the sense that Patrick deMare' describes which is
>>a Freudian view that a group of
>>strangers greet one another in the beginning with a kind of defensive
>>suspicion and concealed hatred. HIs view
>>was that this always is revealed as the group is encouraged to move
>>toward dialogue and fellowship.
>>
>>don
>>
>>
>>On 27 Sep 2006, at 02:02, Karilen Mays wrote:
>>
>>>not "my" experience either! if the human animal hates dialogue, i guess
>>>i ain't human!?
>>>
>>>kari
>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>From: Gill Wyatt <earthsky@tiscali.co.uk>
>>>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:33:19 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>>>
>>> >
>>> > the human animal HATES dialog,
>>>
>>>Kirsten this is not my experience ... when groups experience 'true
>>>dialogue'
>>>they are touched to their core and it seems to me people 'love' it
>>>rather
>>>than hate it when it occurs.
>>>
>>>What makes you say they hate it?
>>>
>>>Gill
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
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>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
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>>
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>>admin@david-bohm.net
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>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Fri Sep 29 10:02:03 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 10:57:13 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <c78.11d5fbc.324e2cfb@aol.com>
Most journalists have a naturally deficit-framed view of the the world, so I
guess their role is to notice stuff going wrong, and bring it to our
attention. With global / environmental issues, often the pace of change is too slow
or the distance from us it too great, for us to "notice" what's happening,
since it falls outside the range of our natural awareness. They do us a valuable
service, I think.
For Donf, who, a few days ago, here, in that politics-shunning forum of
"dialog", stated, paraphrased, that a fair amount of those problems "the
world" faces, are made up by journalist
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 11:08:43 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 12:04:03 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
In-Reply-To: <20060928214846.27666.qmail@web52906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F24973F525A82C5C21B7570A8180@phx.gbl>
Godog, I hopes
Not ;-!
Love & Margins, Ki
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
>Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I would...
>
>but "I" may not be what "you" think "i" am
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:44:52 PM
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
>
>
>Dear Dropper, would you say:
>
>That you are dying
>
>Right
>
>Now?
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 29 11:09:04 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sat Sep 30 12:04:17 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F12B2A181460B4CEBF2A70BA8180@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-F12B2A181460B4CEBF2A70BA8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BEF94B56-326F-4EC0-98D7-004F3C7E8B8C@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
On 29 Sep 2006, at 01:05, kirsten schneide wrote:
> For Donf, who, a few days ago, here, in that politics-shunning
> forum of "dialog", stated, paraphrased, that a fair amount of those
> problems "the world" faces, are made up by journalist
What ARE you talking about?
And if you still don't know what is important to me, then my theory
is confirmed. You really don't know what anybody else is talking
about, Or maybe its the language. English has its own subtleties that
aren't obvious to the non-native English speaker.
And what do you suggest we do to keep from heating up that extra one
degree? While you are thinking about it I suggest you hide under the
bed, with a few blocks of ice and maybe you'll feel safe.
If not, have a good heat death.
don
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 11:18:15 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 12:13:31 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <c78.11d5fbc.324e2cfb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F33CAE33FB7E055D1F84D7AA8180@phx.gbl>
Dear Mark ~
What (not just)
Don-the-f is going "through"
Is the same (similar) thinkg like
Denial of Death
It s 'all' about denial...
We are going
To 'pieces'
And so is the 'world'
The Humanimal is simply
Not 'made' to take all
That to (under)stand it
Its too munch
Eating us, literally
Alive...
So, Denial "works"
[And here, btw, you also have the answer why Bohm&Dialog ain't working, aint
doing (sh)it.]
[Simply cannot, no matter, no mind: how hard you try.... its funda'mentally
against the
nature of the humanimal..... but, the beauty is, the very brain/system =
TAS, "of course"
does not get that (either) ... it's wicked, it's marvelous, it is:
"toogoodtobe... tru" ]
PS for DONF:
You keep talking about talking about
Deathslashdying...
Andandand then you never does
.....What's up/down with that, dear :-?
Love & Blinders, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 04:02:03 EDT
>
>
>
>Most journalists have a naturally deficit-framed view of the the world, so
>I
>guess their role is to notice stuff going wrong, and bring it to our
>attention. With global / environmental issues, often the pace of change is
>too slow
>or the distance from us it too great, for us to "notice" what's happening,
>since it falls outside the range of our natural awareness. They do us a
>valuable
> service, I think.
>
>For Donf, who, a few days ago, here, in that politics-shunning forum of
>"dialog", stated, paraphrased, that a fair amount of those problems "the
>world" faces, are made up by journalist
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 11:20:47 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 12:16:07 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BEF94B56-326F-4EC0-98D7-004F3C7E8B8C@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F95459631CCA5287346685A8180@phx.gbl>
>>For Donf, who, a few days ago, here, in that politics-shunning forum of
>>"dialog", stated, paraphrased, that a fair amount of those problems "the
>>world" faces, are made up by journalist
>
>What ARE you talking about?
Dear Donf ~ a(nother) senile momomomememementmentment?
Go & Check
Your Balances=Harddrives ;-!
Mr. Keeper
Love & Meachnics, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 29 12:41:25 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sat Sep 30 13:36:55 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F32BF485CCBF26E76D6FDE1A81B0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-F32BF485CCBF26E76D6FDE1A81B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6B21E051-F966-417D-9C9C-9C91BC84B864@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Charles Darwin? Why not go back a little further to Bishop Berkeley?
Do you not know that Evolutionary theory has come a very long way
beyond this kind of idea? About time you get hold of some more up-to-
date literature.
These days about the only person I can think of who would take this
notion literally is Richard Dawkina, the high priest of materialism.
Who actually earns his salary by defending this sort of point of view.
Come on K, you can do better than that.
don
>
>
> Dear Nowmybrainisdoingitdonf ~
>
> Experience shows the problem of the mind cannot be solved by
> attacking the citadel itself -the mind is a function of body.
>
> (Charles Darwin, The "N" Notebook)
>
> ... and yet, a few hundred years later, critters, suckling on
> bohmian tits, (still) drool...
>
> ...togetit..
>
> ...aaaaaaaall....
>
>
> oooooowell
>
>
> Love & Noevolution, Kirsten
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 29 12:43:24 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sat Sep 30 13:38:49 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060923204945.84112.qmail@web55011.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <20060923204945.84112.qmail@web55011.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C7130914-C480-4B86-8531-4566EAFB1B44@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
I thought I would use Zoe's list here, But in commenting on them I
notice that most of them are symptoms of just one thing the way the
human thought system functions. So, we can go out and try to fix the
symptoms - choose you favorite - or we can try to increase our
awareness of how to deal with the cause - the source upstream of the
pollution. So for Bohm and most of us who have been involved,
dialogue is about all these things
Anyway, some comments here
> Global-Warming,
We have no idea what the consequences of this will be. A few years
back we were told that it would lead to a new ice age, last year,
here in the UK, we were told that the gulf stream that keeps the UK
temperatures moderate was about to disappear and that we would freeze
over. Every year a new dire prediction is announced (Why?) and none
of them have proved to be the case. Meteorological predictions are
based on chaos theory and complexity which means that computer models
have to be used and different models come up with different
predictions. There is no consensus.
> Peakoil,
If we are to run out of oil in thirty years or so, which seems to be
what the experts are talking about, this can only be good for us ans
for the planet. We may have to think again.
> Genocides,
Genocides have been with us for all of history, When populations were
smaller people talked about tribal wars and ethnic conflict. Wanting
to understand the kind of thinking that results in this has been one
of the primary reasons for this sort of dialogue.
> Wars-all-over,
So what's new?
> Overpopulation,
Is there really overpopulation? Serious studies that I have read say
that the planet can easily feed 10 billion people. It s the politics
of greed that make this seem impossible.
> Epidemics,
How's about the black death, or plagues, need I go on?
> Mass-starvations,
Lots of people starving but no mass starvation. See 'Overpopulation',
> Pollution,
I don't suppose you have ever wandered through some villages in India
or Africa. Are you aware that for centuries most of Europe lived
without sewers or indoor plumbing, and until maybe forty years ago
the smogs in London were literally killing people. They are long
gone. So at least some progress is being made in some places.
> Collapse-of-natural-Stocks,
Natural stocks of what? Cod? We now have fish farming
> Social-Injustice,
Yes, a lot of that, nothing new here, sadly. But again this is
another symptom of what we are attempting to look into here.
> Mass-Extinctions,
Not since the dinosaurs
> Torture
Only in America it seems. But I would bet that there is a lot less of
it around the world now than, say, in the middle ages or during the
inquisition or even sixty or seventy years ago in Europe. And then,
so as not to be too regionalist, China was famous for its innovations
in this domain. Anyway,
> Election-Fraud,
Yes, so what's new here? This too is just another symptom of what is
wrong with the way humans think, Our main topic on this list. And
there was once a time, when there were no such things as elections.
> Rainforest-Destruction,
product of human thought, just the same as a beautiful garden is a
product of human thought,
> Record-Diabetes,
Where, how much, what sort?
> Mass-suicides-of-Indian-farmers,
Never heard about this one.
> World-Freshwater-loss,
My best guess is that there is plenty of fresh water if people choose
to share it. I grew up in southern California where there was little
water, but it is shared and this has worked very well for many years,
> Famines,
A lot of them thoughout history. At least now people can be helped
during draughts and other natural caused famines.
Think what it must have been like before our modern transport
technologies allowed at least some aid.
> Religious-Extremism,
Nothing new, just human thought again
> Nuclear-Proliferation,
Human thought
> Genetic-Design
Bad? Good? Yet to be decided.
So I would say to Zoe and Kirsten, quit reading the headlines and try
to find out what;s really going on.
don
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Fri Sep 29 12:58:00 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 13:53:18 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20060930100003.9723A234AB@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF6D0421A3.16F29246-ON852571F8.003B11DE-852571F8.003C3E11@dialogos.com>
Rodger __I find myself conscious of this point of awareness, whether I take
part in a group, or am all alone in some wilderness, relaxing. I think it
is a central point of awareness which animates the details of any reality
and circumstance into Being __ and from there my thoughts, according to
self-image, attribute the details with meaning._R
.
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
.
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Fri Sep 29 13:05:18 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 14:00:37 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
Message-ID: <225.78a499c.324e57ee@aol.com>
I've struggled with many definitions of what an organisation is - at the
moment, I my "definition du jour" is that it's a group whose primary purpose is
to preseve its identity.
However, if we are all connected and consciousness arises out of those
connections, then the very concept of a group is in itself a mobile one. In this
model, individuals would simply be a small, "holographic", expression of the
larger group, and vice versa. There wouldn't be any difference between
individual and group. Forgot who offered this hypothesis, that the social and
individual are plural and singular expressions of the same thing. That might
reinfoce my definition of a group above, as the person's purpose is also to
preserve his/her identity or existence, both moment-to-moment, and in the longer
term through their connections with the larger group mind.
Each person would naturally encounter others from other groups, which would
have some influence on each person in that encounter, and also, by extension,
the groups they respectively belong to.
So perhaps I've got to your question at the end, or maybe my understanding
of your question, which is: what is an organisation, or what does it mean?
You've got me thinking: organisation, order, do they fit together? An
organisation strives to be orderly. But an order, as in a logical order or
descriptive order, or more cogently, what Bohm called a generative order, delimits or
defines a particular collective, or group activity which could be nothing
more than, say a large number of people crossing bridge at rush hour, or
perhaps some synchronised swimmers or a choreographed group of dancers, or some
other, less, conditional kind of grouping. like a dialogue group?
But what if we begin with the suggestion that everyone is always and already
connected, at least in so far as their consciousness is concerned. What then
do we have? A jumble? Well, yes, maybe, but its not entirely random since
all of the parts - people - have some commonality. The question then, our
question, would be what this is, or maybe what it means. Now my brain is doing it.
don
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Fri Sep 29 13:30:30 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 14:25:47 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] How do you "sell" the idea of dialogue?
Message-ID: <c79.11ff6ae.324e5dd6@aol.com>
Just thought I'd lob a really easy question into the group (no pressure!):
How do you convey the value of dialogue to an organisation which may be
obsessed with doing things faster, more cheaply or more profitably - in other
words, immersed in the world of the quantitative?
My own organisational experience in the BBC is that people were forever
wanting to get stuff out quickly, using audience analysis and other tools, as
part of a hugely complex and pressured TV / radio / online production process,
targetting their programmes at an audience they never met. It often made me
think I was working in some sort of mad sausage factory!
But quantities are relatively easy to measure. Convey "quality" is more
difficult, because I think it's a social construction. I think we "measure"
quality by such relational, contextual things as the effect it has on us. So the
only way I can see to convey the "qualitative" to clients is to bring in "what
impact my work had on others" - but even then, it's moment-to-moment impact,
it's difficult to say what effect it has in quantifiable terms, and of
course, it's by its very nature contextual so may not be transferrable to another
organisation's needs.
Mark
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From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Fri Sep 29 14:21:21 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 15:16:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
In-Reply-To: <20060930100003.9723A234AB@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OF5A41AC85.F870E25A-ON852571F8.003E0A4D-852571F8.0043DFA7@dialogos.com>
Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting 3-4
meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing
music with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants
and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience is
an absence of self-image/ role.
If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which were
the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be without
the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks.
But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to refit
itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely fine if
it was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something more for me
to do in human form. And making the decision to return to fulfill that
something is a vivid memory of choice.
That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs masks,
self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They are an
essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I
could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of
self-image for conscious awareness. _R
.
.
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 14:26:14 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 15:21:29 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] How do you "sell" the idea of dialogue?
In-Reply-To: <c79.11ff6ae.324e5dd6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F24C14AD767607BA0491C8FA8180@phx.gbl>
Dear Mark, why do you want to push Dialog??
Kirsten
>From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] How do you "sell" the idea of dialogue?
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:30:30 EDT
>
>Just thought I'd lob a really easy question into the group (no pressure!):
>
>How do you convey the value of dialogue to an organisation which may be
>obsessed with doing things faster, more cheaply or more profitably - in
>other
>words, immersed in the world of the quantitative?
>
>My own organisational experience in the BBC is that people were forever
>wanting to get stuff out quickly, using audience analysis and other tools,
>as
>part of a hugely complex and pressured TV / radio / online production
>process,
>targetting their programmes at an audience they never met. It often made
>me
>think I was working in some sort of mad sausage factory!
>
>But quantities are relatively easy to measure. Convey "quality" is more
>difficult, because I think it's a social construction. I think we
>"measure"
>quality by such relational, contextual things as the effect it has on us.
>So the
>only way I can see to convey the "qualitative" to clients is to bring in
>"what
>impact my work had on others" - but even then, it's moment-to-moment
>impact,
>it's difficult to say what effect it has in quantifiable terms, and of
>course, it's by its very nature contextual so may not be transferrable to
>another
>organisation's needs.
>
>Mark
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 14:32:09 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 15:27:21 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <C7130914-C480-4B86-8531-4566EAFB1B44@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F349220242972BE8BE6E180A8180@phx.gbl>
Ohmygodog, Donf, goodman, it looks like you lost it .... ist that what
decades of 'doing' Bohmslashdialog 'does' :-?
Love & Amusement, Kirsten
>From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:43:24 +0100
>
>
>I thought I would use Zoe's list here, But in commenting on them I notice
>that most of them are symptoms of just one thing the way the human thought
>system functions. So, we can go out and try to fix the symptoms - choose
>you favorite - or we can try to increase our awareness of how to deal with
>the cause - the source upstream of the pollution. So for Bohm and most of
>us who have been involved, dialogue is about all these things
>Anyway, some comments here
>
>>Global-Warming,
>
>We have no idea what the consequences of this will be. A few years back we
>were told that it would lead to a new ice age, last year, here in the UK,
>we were told that the gulf stream that keeps the UK temperatures moderate
>was about to disappear and that we would freeze over. Every year a new
>dire prediction is announced (Why?) and none of them have proved to be the
>case. Meteorological predictions are based on chaos theory and complexity
>which means that computer models have to be used and different models come
>up with different predictions. There is no consensus.
>
>>Peakoil,
>
>If we are to run out of oil in thirty years or so, which seems to be what
>the experts are talking about, this can only be good for us ans for the
>planet. We may have to think again.
>
>>Genocides,
>
>Genocides have been with us for all of history, When populations were
>smaller people talked about tribal wars and ethnic conflict. Wanting to
>understand the kind of thinking that results in this has been one of the
>primary reasons for this sort of dialogue.
>
>>Wars-all-over,
>
>So what's new?
>
>>Overpopulation,
>
>Is there really overpopulation? Serious studies that I have read say that
>the planet can easily feed 10 billion people. It s the politics of greed
>that make this seem impossible.
>
>>Epidemics,
>
>How's about the black death, or plagues, need I go on?
>
>>Mass-starvations,
>
>Lots of people starving but no mass starvation. See 'Overpopulation',
>
>>Pollution,
>
>I don't suppose you have ever wandered through some villages in India or
>Africa. Are you aware that for centuries most of Europe lived without
>sewers or indoor plumbing, and until maybe forty years ago the smogs in
>London were literally killing people. They are long gone. So at least some
>progress is being made in some places.
>
>>Collapse-of-natural-Stocks,
>
>Natural stocks of what? Cod? We now have fish farming
>
>>Social-Injustice,
>
>Yes, a lot of that, nothing new here, sadly. But again this is another
>symptom of what we are attempting to look into here.
>
>>Mass-Extinctions,
>
>Not since the dinosaurs
>
>>Torture
>
>Only in America it seems. But I would bet that there is a lot less of it
>around the world now than, say, in the middle ages or during the
>inquisition or even sixty or seventy years ago in Europe. And then, so as
>not to be too regionalist, China was famous for its innovations in this
>domain. Anyway,
>
>>Election-Fraud,
>
>Yes, so what's new here? This too is just another symptom of what is wrong
>with the way humans think, Our main topic on this list. And there was once
>a time, when there were no such things as elections.
>
>>Rainforest-Destruction,
>
>product of human thought, just the same as a beautiful garden is a product
>of human thought,
>
>>Record-Diabetes,
>
>Where, how much, what sort?
>
>>Mass-suicides-of-Indian-farmers,
>
>Never heard about this one.
>
>>World-Freshwater-loss,
>
>My best guess is that there is plenty of fresh water if people choose to
>share it. I grew up in southern California where there was little water,
>but it is shared and this has worked very well for many years,
>
>>Famines,
>
>A lot of them thoughout history. At least now people can be helped during
>draughts and other natural caused famines.
>Think what it must have been like before our modern transport technologies
>allowed at least some aid.
>
>>Religious-Extremism,
>
>Nothing new, just human thought again
>
>>Nuclear-Proliferation,
>
>Human thought
>
>>Genetic-Design
>
>Bad? Good? Yet to be decided.
>
>So I would say to Zoe and Kirsten, quit reading the headlines and try to
>find out what;s really going on.
>
>don
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Fri Sep 29 14:57:26 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 15:52:47 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] How do you "sell" the idea of dialogue?
Message-ID: <244.6a8bfba1.324e7236@aol.com>
Hi Kristen,
Because I think it's something we're being drawn away from by the technology
around us... and because I'm continually amazed by the little things in
conversations which make the big differences - the things we can't predict, but
by being open to dialogue, weave themselves into our consciousness and emerge
in a different and sometimes generative form.
Good question - thanks! Sometimes I think the questions are more imporantant
than the answers...so I'll keep the question in mind.
Dear Mark, why do you want to push Dialog??
Kirsten
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From facilitator at david-bohm.net Fri Sep 29 17:25:28 2006
From: facilitator at david-bohm.net (facilitator)
Date: Sat Sep 30 18:20:49 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
Message-ID: <2ABAC16D-9CA4-430F-9CA6-215F35FC52ED@david-bohm.net>
I think the time has come once again to ask others here how they feel
about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the
benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person
has joined the list under different names and written in
pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.)
Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am
writing this:
He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point,
He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of
dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without
suggesting any alternative other than parrotting those
who would likely have considered it a waste of time.
Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is
suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts
any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our
explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are
right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"?
Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic?
don
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 17:34:39 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 18:30:01 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] How do you "sell" the idea of dialogue?
In-Reply-To: <244.6a8bfba1.324e7236@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F316242CDB49BAE5807A8D1A8180@phx.gbl>
Dear Mark, not just do people hate dialoging, their (our) heads are not
'made' for it [thus, what looks like 'hatred' is actually some un'kind of
mental-immune-system response..... by "selling" bohm/dialog you really ask
people to consume somethinkg: unhealthy.... to, if you want, sabotage their
{operating}system], Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>Hi Kristen,
>
>Because I think it's something we're being drawn away from by the
>technology
>around us... and because I'm continually amazed by the little things in
>conversations which make the big differences - the things we can't predict,
> but
>by being open to dialogue, weave themselves into our consciousness and
>emerge
>in a different and sometimes generative form.
>
>Good question - thanks! Sometimes I think the questions are more
>imporantant
>than the answers...so I'll keep the question in mind.
>
>Dear Mark, why do you want to push Dialog??
>
>Kirsten
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 17:44:11 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 18:39:27 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
In-Reply-To: <2ABAC16D-9CA4-430F-9CA6-215F35FC52ED@david-bohm.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F15E30E424BCEB9639732EBA8180@phx.gbl>
>I think the time has come once again ....
That Don Factor can't not handle, can't take, can't tolerate, can't
dialogically process ..... somethinkg ... that goes (strongly) against his
belief-system/subscription?
.... and thus he shows, once again, how he seems not have been endowed with
the essence of bohm/dialog: to look at every thinkg! to let it 'work"! to
investigate in un'certain reactions! to dare!..... oh Donf, old boy, 20-30
years of 'doing' dialog... and this is ("the best/pest" you can ....come
"up" with :-?
... anythinkg that manages to up-set i belief system is a: GEM
and ought to be treasured as such
I treasure you, Donf .... your outputs/gases makes my ignition spark.
The engine of mind. Tas. You, the donfactors, feed it no matter what.
Appreciative,
Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
to ask others here how they
>feel about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the
>benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person has
>joined the list under different names and written in
>pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.)
>
>Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am writing
>this:
>
>He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point,
>He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of
>dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without suggesting
>any alternative other than parrotting those
>who would likely have considered it a waste of time.
>
>Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is
>suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts
>any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our
>explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are
>right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"?
>
>Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic?
>
>don
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From ae.dropper at juno.com Fri Sep 29 18:24:07 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 19:30:32 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
Message-ID: <20060929.122708.3964.65.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
[of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary "slowing"
within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while
arbitrarily so], "scenes."
pat
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting 3-4
meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing
music with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants
and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience
is an absence of self-image/ role.
If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which
were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be
without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks.
But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to
refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely
fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something
more for me to do in human form. And making the decision to return to
fulfill that something is a vivid memory of choice.
That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs
masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They are
an essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I
could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of
self-image for conscious awareness. _R
.
.
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 29 18:40:45 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sat Sep 30 19:35:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
In-Reply-To: <20060929.122708.3964.65.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20060929.122708.3964.65.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <54B257B3-4ACE-499D-B097-47197EC4E692@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Pat, what you say here rings true, but I can't help but wonder
whether this is your experience. I ask, because you have often
written about fear using the first person but this is a third person
sort o statement.
don
On 29 Sep 2006, at 17:24, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
> Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
> indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
> [of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
> actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary
> "slowing"
> within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while
> arbitrarily so], "scenes."
>
> pat
>
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
> Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild
> sitting 3-4 meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_
> dissolving into playing music with friends, or sitting in meetings
> with high level consultants and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart
> of my awareness of the experience is an absence of self-image/ role.
>
> If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
> experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images
> which were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt
> like to be without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of
> all my masks.
>
> But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began
> to refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt
> absolutely fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there
> was something more for me to do in human form. And making the
> decision to return to fulfill that something is a vivid memory of
> choice.
>
> That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs
> masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again.
> They are an essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
> Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly
> because I could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought
> process of self-image for conscious awareness. _R
> .
> .
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> .
> Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build
> our
> joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 29 18:51:58 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sat Sep 30 19:47:14 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
In-Reply-To: <20060929.122708.3964.65.ae.dropper@juno.com>
References: <20060929.122708.3964.65.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5EB781A6-658E-491F-99AE-9B92E1441220@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
More. I have written before about my own "near to death" experience,
and how my fear of death was dissolved. But the other day I received
a post from a friend about an amazing glass walkway that is being
built over a part of the Grand Canyon in Arizona. From the photos it
looks as though you can walk across the transparent chasm looking
straight down between your own feet at the river a mile below you.
Very scary. But why I mention it, is because I was reminded of a
poem i wrote shortly after I recovered from my near to death illness,
which gives the lie to what I remembered as my change of
consciousness, at least in part. Anyway, here it is.
GRAND CANYON
After I recovered we drove to see the Grand Canyon.
It was vast and partly hidden behind a drizzling rain.
Anna wanted to go to the bottom
but they told us it was a two day trip
and I didn't have the time.
Time was important to me now.
So we settled, when the sky cleared,
for lunch on a rock overhanging an edge
away from the crowds.
A mile below we could just distinguish a stretch of the
brown Colorado River gliding like a minute worm
through the sandy intestines of aeons of time.
We stretched out on our rock, unwrapped our sandwiches,
let our feet dangle over the pit until, suddenly,
very quickly,
in almost no time at all,
I felt a jolt of deep and absolute dread.
It rose up from the pit like an ill wind
and drove me back to cling to a scraggly juniper well away
from the precipice.
The sky was blue now
and the rocks glowed
rich and devilish red.
After my cancer I thought there'd be no more such fear.
Don Factor
On 29 Sep 2006, at 17:24, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
> Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
> indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
> [of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
> actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary
> "slowing"
> within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while
> arbitrarily so], "scenes."
>
> pat
>
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
> Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild
> sitting 3-4 meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_
> dissolving into playing music with friends, or sitting in meetings
> with high level consultants and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart
> of my awareness of the experience is an absence of self-image/ role.
>
> If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
> experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images
> which were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt
> like to be without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of
> all my masks.
>
> But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began
> to refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt
> absolutely fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there
> was something more for me to do in human form. And making the
> decision to return to fulfill that something is a vivid memory of
> choice.
>
> That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs
> masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again.
> They are an essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
> Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly
> because I could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought
> process of self-image for conscious awareness. _R
> .
> .
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> .
> Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build
> our
> joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Fri Sep 29 19:03:44 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sat Sep 30 19:59:05 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
In-Reply-To: <2ABAC16D-9CA4-430F-9CA6-215F35FC52ED@david-bohm.net>
Message-ID: <C142CA30.335B%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Another option - don't get hooked into responding in kind. Read through the
facade to the content beneath. The facade doesn't help create a safe space
for many, but I have known many like him. They were insightful, creative,
and talented, among other things - as I presently perceive him. Perhaps he
sees his role (temporarily?) as a kind of gadfly. Pushing all of us along
to think out of the Bohm box. And I am sure that as valuable as Bohm is,
other thinkers have built on his ideas and added valuable contributions of
their own. And, I believe KP gets input from us that propels his own
understanding to new spaces. Which again is Bohm, as I understand him.
He was one of the first to welcome me. That is a comment about his
underlying attitude towards people, I believe.
My sons freaked me out when I first heard them call each other "dog"! But
they are inseparable, and take care of each other.
Maybe he will realize that operating without anesthesia doesn't work for
most of us, (we find other doctors who use anesthesia!) and find a better
way.
Anyway, that is my opinion. k
On 9/29/06 11:25 AM, "facilitator" <facilitator@david-bohm.net> wrote:
> I think the time has come once again to ask others here how they feel
> about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the
> benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person
> has joined the list under different names and written in
> pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.)
>
> Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am
> writing this:
>
> He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point,
> He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of
> dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without
> suggesting any alternative other than parrotting those
> who would likely have considered it a waste of time.
>
> Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is
> suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts
> any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our
> explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are
> right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"?
>
> Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic?
>
> don
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From ae.dropper at juno.com Fri Sep 29 19:08:31 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 20:05:05 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
Message-ID: <20060929.130838.3964.67.ae.dropper@juno.com>
It was an attempt to "make intelligible," experience,
ongoing, everyday, experience [sometimes more, sometimes less].
But it was not an "attempt" at all. It's just a response of recognition
of what Rodger was saying. No conscious thought went into it.
pat
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:40:45 +0100 Don Factor
<donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes:
Pat, what you say here rings true, but I can't help but wonder whether
this is your experience. I ask, because you have often written about fear
using the first person but this is a third person sort o statement.
don
On 29 Sep 2006, at 17:24, ae.dropper@juno.com wrote:
Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
[of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary "slowing"
within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while
arbitrarily so], "scenes."
pat
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting 3-4
meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing
music with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants
and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience
is an absence of self-image/ role.
If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which
were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be
without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks.
But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to
refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely
fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something
more for me to do in human form. And making the decision to return to
fulfill that something is a vivid memory of choice.
That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs
masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They are
an essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I
could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of
self-image for conscious awareness. _R
.
.
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
.
Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 19:12:20 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 20:07:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
In-Reply-To: <20060929.122708.3964.65.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F252A9053BDDDED5D4706A9A8180@phx.gbl>
Dear Dropper
"Too much sanity may be madness, and the maddest of all, to see life as it
is and not as it should be." Miguel de Cervantes
Love & Tango, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
>indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
>[of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
>actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary "slowing"
>within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while
>arbitrarily so], "scenes."
>
>pat
>
>
>On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
>Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting 3-4
>meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing
>music with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants
>and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience
>is an absence of self-image/ role.
>
>If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
>experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which
>were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be
>without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks.
>
>But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to
>refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely
>fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something
>more for me to do in human form. And making the decision to return to
>fulfill that something is a vivid memory of choice.
>
>That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs
>masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They are
>an essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
>Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I
>could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of
>self-image for conscious awareness. _R
>.
>.
>Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
>From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>.
>Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
>joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best
route! http://local.live.com
From ae.dropper at juno.com Fri Sep 29 19:16:14 2006
From: ae.dropper at juno.com (ae.dropper@juno.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 20:12:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
Message-ID: <20060929.131624.3964.68.ae.dropper@juno.com>
operating without anesthesia doesn't work for
most of us (k)
brilliant
pat
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 19:51:03 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 20:46:21 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
In-Reply-To: <C142CA30.335B%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F35EAB9785BE63C3787487FA8180@phx.gbl>
Dear Kathryn ~
"operation"?
hm
what un'kind of operation (do you see) is (not) going on here?
Love & Fillintheblanks, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>Another option - don't get hooked into responding in kind. Read through
>the
>facade to the content beneath. The facade doesn't help create a safe space
>for many, but I have known many like him. They were insightful, creative,
>and talented, among other things - as I presently perceive him. Perhaps he
>sees his role (temporarily?) as a kind of gadfly. Pushing all of us along
>to think out of the Bohm box. And I am sure that as valuable as Bohm is,
>other thinkers have built on his ideas and added valuable contributions of
>their own. And, I believe KP gets input from us that propels his own
>understanding to new spaces. Which again is Bohm, as I understand him.
>
>He was one of the first to welcome me. That is a comment about his
>underlying attitude towards people, I believe.
>
>My sons freaked me out when I first heard them call each other "dog"! But
>they are inseparable, and take care of each other.
>
>Maybe he will realize that operating without anesthesia doesn't work for
>most of us, (we find other doctors who use anesthesia!) and find a better
>way.
>
>Anyway, that is my opinion. k
>
>
>On 9/29/06 11:25 AM, "facilitator" <facilitator@david-bohm.net> wrote:
>
> > I think the time has come once again to ask others here how they feel
> > about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the
> > benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person
> > has joined the list under different names and written in
> > pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.)
> >
> > Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am
> > writing this:
> >
> > He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point,
> > He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of
> > dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without
> > suggesting any alternative other than parrotting those
> > who would likely have considered it a waste of time.
> >
> > Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is
> > suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts
> > any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our
> > explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are
> > right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"?
> >
> > Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic?
> >
> > don
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live
Spaces
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 20:01:14 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 20:56:28 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] anesthesiaaaahhh
In-Reply-To: <20060929.131624.3964.68.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F151F7CAEDBD9B55967E5DEA8180@phx.gbl>
anesthesia
1721, "loss of feeling," from Gk. anaisthesia "lack of sensation," from an-
"without" + aisthesis "feeling."
ps:
http://www.gmdltd.com/images/product/anesthesia/jinling-1b.jpg
Love & Breathtakingiving, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>operating without anesthesia doesn't work for
>most of us (k)
>
>brilliant
>
>pat
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial!
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 20:16:32 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 21:17:14 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] ,hello
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F151F7CAEDBD9B55967E5DEA8180@phx.gbl>
References: <20060929.131624.3964.68.ae.dropper@juno.com>
<BAY107-F151F7CAEDBD9B55967E5DEA8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1816.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159553792.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
hello,
I'm Aurelien, what is the subject ?
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 20:27:43 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 21:28:06 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <1816.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159553792.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <20060929.131624.3964.68.ae.dropper@juno.com>
<BAY107-F151F7CAEDBD9B55967E5DEA8180@phx.gbl>
<1816.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159553792.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 20:34:51 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 21:30:11 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] ,hello
In-Reply-To: <1816.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159553792.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F35296FEE429C748F8665C8A8180@phx.gbl>
>hello,
>
>I'm Aurelien, what is the subject ?
http://pinball.flippers.info/spaceshuttleentireplayfield.jpg
or in other words :
y'our mind
well, ok, maybe rather:
http://www.plansinwood.com/pinball.jpg
.....at any 'rate',
welcome to that parlor, aurelien ~ Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best
route! http://local.live.com
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 20:33:34 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 21:33:53 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] ,hello
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F35296FEE429C748F8665C8A8180@phx.gbl>
References: <1816.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159553792.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F35296FEE429C748F8665C8A8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1923.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554814.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Hey, nice to speak with you Kirsten
Do you know that 'flipper' means also "to be afraid", in French ?
>
>>hello,
>>
>>I'm Aurelien, what is the subject ?
>
>
>
>
>
> http://pinball.flippers.info/spaceshuttleentireplayfield.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
> or in other words :
>
> y'our mind
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> well, ok, maybe rather:
>
> http://www.plansinwood.com/pinball.jpg
>
> .....at any 'rate',
>
> welcome to that parlor, aurelien ~ Kirsten
>
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more?then map the best
> route! http://local.live.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Fri Sep 29 20:39:12 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sat Sep 30 21:34:28 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
>Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
ok:
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000TZ4WA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
_________________________________________________________________
Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 20:37:35 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 21:37:54 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
References: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
ok:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/Abalone_board.jpg
>
>
>
>>Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
>
>
>
> ok:
>
>
>
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000TZ4WA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
>
>
>
> Kbot
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:04:31 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:04:51 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Other subject
In-Reply-To: <1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
<1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <2146.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556671.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Where is Bohm ? I don't see him in the group
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:09:57 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:10:18 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Patatoe :)
In-Reply-To: <2146.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556671.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
<1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2146.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556671.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <2189.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556997.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://static.flickr.com/76/193584629_91681fe167.jpg
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:11:30 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:11:50 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Head of rabbit :)
In-Reply-To: <2189.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556997.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
<1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2146.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556671.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2189.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556997.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <2206.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557090.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://static.flickr.com/66/201549371_3c6ef5e86f.jpg
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:26:23 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:26:43 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] yeah low ambiance
In-Reply-To: <2206.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557090.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
<1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2146.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556671.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2189.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556997.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2206.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557090.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <2483.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557983.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/39115848/?qo=27&q=by%3Apoeticphoto&qh=sort%3Atime+-in%3Ascraps
From MarkHarmer at aol.com Fri Sep 29 21:32:23 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:27:45 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
Message-ID: <c06.593b7a3.324ecec7@aol.com>
As a newbie to both this group and the "study" (if that's the right word) of
dialogue, I'll wade in with my 2 cents (2 euro, where I come from!):
Is this really not about Kirsten but about how we deal with difference? My
take is that difference is potentially interesting and I think however
annoying to some people, it serves to provoke us out of our patterns and comfort
zones. Probably the most intriguing person I've met in one of my music workshops
intrigued me because she used very unconventional terms - maybe her
difference resonated with me, but there was something very striking about her.
Does she represent something about ourselves that we'd rather not face?
I'm only asking and suggesting, and I'm conscious that this may offend one /
other / several people. That's not my intention, at least, not a conscious
one!
Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is
suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts
any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our
explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are
right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"?
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From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:28:05 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:28:25 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] critical informations
In-Reply-To: <2483.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557983.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
<1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2146.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556671.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2189.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556997.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2206.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557090.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2483.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557983.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <2508.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159558085.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://static.flickr.com/59/195431279_1855b406a3.jpg
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:33:42 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:34:03 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Not proud
In-Reply-To: <2508.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159558085.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <1884.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554463.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
<1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2146.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556671.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2189.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159556997.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2206.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557090.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2483.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159557983.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<2508.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159558085.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <2548.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159558422.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://static.flickr.com/61/195421057_0f38792b7f.jpg
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:38:44 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:39:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] anastaciaaaaaah
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F151F7CAEDBD9B55967E5DEA8180@phx.gbl>
References: <20060929.131624.3964.68.ae.dropper@juno.com>
<BAY107-F151F7CAEDBD9B55967E5DEA8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2673.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159558724.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://www.anastacia.com/
Join the anastacia mailing list to stay up-to-date on all the latest news,
tour info, contest announcements, and more!
From MarkHarmer at aol.com Fri Sep 29 21:44:13 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:39:31 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
Message-ID: <382.bac411a.324ed18d@aol.com>
Hey, by the way, Kirsten, what do **you** think?
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From tubakari at yahoo.com Fri Sep 29 21:46:43 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:41:57 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] anastaciaaaaaah
Message-ID: <20060929194643.11077.qmail@web52905.mail.yahoo.com>
This is an email list - not really a chat group.
Is this a real person? or a spam bot?
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:38:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] anastaciaaaaaah
http://www.anastacia.com/
Join the anastacia mailing list to stay up-to-date on all the latest news,
tour info, contest announcements, and more!
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:43:27 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:43:47 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] anastaciaaaaaah
In-Reply-To: <20060929194643.11077.qmail@web52905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060929194643.11077.qmail@web52905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2741.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159559007.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Sorry, I was engaged a discuss with Kirsten and I have forgotten that I
was in a public group :)
Aur?lien
> This is an email list - not really a chat group.
>
> Is this a real person? or a spam bot?
>
> kari
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:38:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] anastaciaaaaaah
>
>
> http://www.anastacia.com/
>
> Join the anastacia mailing list to stay up-to-date on all the latest news,
> tour info, contest announcements, and more!
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From tubakari at yahoo.com Fri Sep 29 21:59:06 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:54:20 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] anastaciaaaaaah
Message-ID: <20060929195906.36872.qmail@web52904.mail.yahoo.com>
Hi Aur?lien,
Welcome to the group. Thanks for responding. It's just that I have so many emails coming in I thought I would clarify.
have a good one,
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:43:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] anastaciaaaaaah
Sorry, I was engaged a discuss with Kirsten and I have forgotten that I
was in a public group :)
Aur?lien
> This is an email list - not really a chat group.
>
> Is this a real person? or a spam bot?
>
> kari
>
>
>
>
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From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 21:54:15 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sat Sep 30 22:54:35 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
In-Reply-To: <2741.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159559007.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <20060929194643.11077.qmail@web52905.mail.yahoo.com>
<2741.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159559007.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <2879.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159559655.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://static.flickr.com/71/195431281_3288bfa14e.jpg
From franis_franis at juno.com Fri Sep 29 23:01:44 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 00:02:07 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
Message-ID: <20060929.140145.636.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
This is a spammer - get rid of them, Don.
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:54:15 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org writes:
> http://static.flickr.com/71/195431281_3288bfa14e.jpg
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 23:11:47 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 00:12:08 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
In-Reply-To: <20060929.140145.636.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
References: <20060929.140145.636.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3668.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159564307.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://static.flickr.com/107/255870436_8502211ebe.jpg
> This is a spammer - get rid of them, Don.
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:54:15 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org writes:
>> http://static.flickr.com/71/195431281_3288bfa14e.jpg
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From tubakari at yahoo.com Fri Sep 29 23:20:56 2006
From: tubakari at yahoo.com (Karilen Mays)
Date: Sun Oct 1 00:16:11 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
Message-ID: <20060929212056.43617.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com>
why are you interested in an online discussion list about David Bohm's work and dialogue then? How long have you been interested? How did you find us? Do tell!
kari
----- Original Message ----
From: "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org>
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
http://static.flickr.com/107/255870436_8502211ebe.jpg
> This is a spammer - get rid of them, Don.
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:54:15 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org writes:
>> http://static.flickr.com/71/195431281_3288bfa14e.jpg
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From edgelink at no-log.org Fri Sep 29 23:24:32 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 00:24:54 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
In-Reply-To: <20060929212056.43617.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060929212056.43617.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3764.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159565072.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
hello Kari,
I have discovered Bohm in reading some conversations between Jiddu
Krishnamurti and him, notably the book: "The limits of thought"
http://books.google.fr/books?id=S2oVD12RbY0C&pg=PP7&lpg=PP7&ots=KEniDT8YW_&dq=the+limit+of+thoughts+bohm&sig=ma9w3H9CMbWBwyg8mAFuMKDO82U
on this links there is also some videos with Bohm and Krishnamurti:
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php?page=x&type=video&cid=830611&nav=td&nid=830611&menu=
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php?page=x&type=video&cid=830620&nav=td&nid=830620&menu=
aur?lien
> why are you interested in an online discussion list about David Bohm's
> work and dialogue then? How long have you been interested? How did you
> find us? Do tell!
>
> kari
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org>
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
>
>
> http://static.flickr.com/107/255870436_8502211ebe.jpg
>
>> This is a spammer - get rid of them, Don.
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:54:15 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org writes:
>>> http://static.flickr.com/71/195431281_3288bfa14e.jpg
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Fri Sep 29 23:56:14 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 00:51:32 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F171A9A1E820B97076D3118A8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C1430EBE.3383%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Yes. I want to discuss. Maybe we should start with defining the difference
between "chat" and "discuss". Is a "chatty" style of writing excluded from
a "serious" discussion? Do we need to employ a certain style of writing?
I've been occupied with my version of giving birth from the Implicit to the
Explicit orders in the form of an improvisation session with a master
improviser. I will catch up as fast as I can. Starting with your imagery
which I found very thought provoking. I will start commenting little by
little as soon as I've caught up reading the back emails.
Best, k
On 9/29/06 2:39 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
>
>
>
> ok:
>
>
>
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000TZ4WA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
>
>
>
> Kbot
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.m
> icrosoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hm
> tagline
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Fri Sep 29 23:59:03 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 00:54:21 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F252A9053BDDDED5D4706A9A8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C1430F67.3384%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
I just hope we can all walk in and out of alternate realities, and keep our
balance. You know, those tango steps can be dangerous. Watch them again
with that thought in mind! k
On 9/29/06 1:12 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dropper
>
> "Too much sanity may be madness, and the maddest of all, to see life as it
> is and not as it should be." Miguel de Cervantes
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Love & Tango, Kirsten
>
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>> Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
>> indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
>> [of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
>> actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary "slowing"
>> within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while
>> arbitrarily so], "scenes."
>>
>> pat
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
>> Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting 3-4
>> meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing
>> music with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants
>> and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience
>> is an absence of self-image/ role.
>>
>> If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
>> experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which
>> were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be
>> without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks.
>>
>> But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to
>> refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely
>> fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something
>> more for me to do in human form. And making the decision to return to
>> fulfill that something is a vivid memory of choice.
>>
>> That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs
>> masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They are
>> an essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
>> Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I
>> could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of
>> self-image for conscious awareness. _R
>> .
>> .
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
>> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> .
>> Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
>> joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
>
>
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