From benschcoe at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 00:15:06 2006
From: benschcoe at hotmail.com (Regina Bensch-Coe)
Date: Sun Oct 1 01:10:28 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <C1430EBE.3383%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY123-F154E82AAE688E1F5097072B7180@phx.gbl>
I've been occupied with my version of giving birth from the Implicit to the
Explicit orders in the form of an improvisation session with a master
improviser. (k)
Do we give birth from the Implicate to the Explicate order? Or, do we hold
space for the Implicate to give birth to the Explicate? Or, both?
Regina
>From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:56:14 -0400
>
>Yes. I want to discuss. Maybe we should start with defining the
>difference
>between "chat" and "discuss". Is a "chatty" style of writing excluded from
>a "serious" discussion? Do we need to employ a certain style of writing?
>
>I've been occupied with my version of giving birth from the Implicit to the
>Explicit orders in the form of an improvisation session with a master
>improviser. I will catch up as fast as I can. Starting with your imagery
>which I found very thought provoking. I will start commenting little by
>little as soon as I've caught up reading the back emails.
>
>Best, k
>
>
>On 9/29/06 2:39 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >> Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
> >
> >
> >
> > ok:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000TZ4WA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> > Kbot
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
> >
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.m
> >
>icrosoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hm
> > tagline
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
From benschcoe at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 01:00:38 2006
From: benschcoe at hotmail.com (Regina Bensch-Coe)
Date: Sun Oct 1 01:55:57 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-F154E82AAE688E1F5097072B7180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY123-F359F6A72145F8304A8504B7180@phx.gbl>
Do we give birth from the Implicate to the Explicate order? Or, do we hold
space for the Implicate to give birth to the Explicate? Or, both? (Regina)
Holding space is being fully present. Therefore, there is no image and no
expectation to birth anything. It is in the state of non-expectation that
the unexpected emerges.
Regina
>From: "Regina Bensch-Coe" <benschcoe@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:15:06 -0400
>
>I've been occupied with my version of giving birth from the Implicit to the
>Explicit orders in the form of an improvisation session with a master
>improviser. (k)
>
>Do we give birth from the Implicate to the Explicate order? Or, do we hold
>space for the Implicate to give birth to the Explicate? Or, both?
>
>Regina
>
>
>>From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
>>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:56:14 -0400
>>
>>Yes. I want to discuss. Maybe we should start with defining the
>>difference
>>between "chat" and "discuss". Is a "chatty" style of writing excluded
>>from
>>a "serious" discussion? Do we need to employ a certain style of writing?
>>
>>I've been occupied with my version of giving birth from the Implicit to
>>the
>>Explicit orders in the form of an improvisation session with a master
>>improviser. I will catch up as fast as I can. Starting with your imagery
>>which I found very thought provoking. I will start commenting little by
>>little as soon as I've caught up reading the back emails.
>>
>>Best, k
>>
>>
>>On 9/29/06 2:39 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ok:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000TZ4WA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Kbot
>> > --------------------------
>> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
>> >
>>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.m
>> >
>>icrosoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hm
>> > tagline
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > info:
>> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>> >
>> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > dialogue facilitator:
>> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > Administrator of the mailing list:
>> > admin@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 01:31:44 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 02:27:04 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] anesthesiaaaahhh
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F151F7CAEDBD9B55967E5DEA8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C1432520.338C%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
2006
an?es?the?sia or an?aes?the?sia n
1. induced loss of sensitivity to pain in all or a part of the body for
medical reasons. Methods include drugs, acupuncture, and hypnosis.
2. the loss of sensation caused by damage to a nerve
best, k
Encarta? World English Dictionary ? 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights
reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
On 9/29/06 2:01 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> anesthesia
> 1721, "loss of feeling," from Gk. anaisthesia "lack of sensation," from an-
> "without" + aisthesis "feeling."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ps:
>
> http://www.gmdltd.com/images/product/anesthesia/jinling-1b.jpg
>
>
>
> Love & Breathtakingiving, Kirsten
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>
>
>> operating without anesthesia doesn't work for
>> most of us (k)
>>
>> brilliant
>>
>> pat
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial!
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.w
> indowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 01:34:48 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 02:30:07 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F35EAB9785BE63C3787487FA8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C14325D8.338E%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
That's the big one. I'm saving that answer for last, because it may be
long. It may not be what you intended, but it provoked considerable thought
on my part. That and your imagery of Bohm's teats! Best, k
On 9/29/06 1:51 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Kathryn ~
>
> "operation"?
>
> hm
>
> what un'kind of operation (do you see) is (not) going on here?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Love & Fillintheblanks, Kirsten
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>> Another option - don't get hooked into responding in kind. Read through
>> the
>> facade to the content beneath. The facade doesn't help create a safe space
>> for many, but I have known many like him. They were insightful, creative,
>> and talented, among other things - as I presently perceive him. Perhaps he
>> sees his role (temporarily?) as a kind of gadfly. Pushing all of us along
>> to think out of the Bohm box. And I am sure that as valuable as Bohm is,
>> other thinkers have built on his ideas and added valuable contributions of
>> their own. And, I believe KP gets input from us that propels his own
>> understanding to new spaces. Which again is Bohm, as I understand him.
>>
>> He was one of the first to welcome me. That is a comment about his
>> underlying attitude towards people, I believe.
>>
>> My sons freaked me out when I first heard them call each other "dog"! But
>> they are inseparable, and take care of each other.
>>
>> Maybe he will realize that operating without anesthesia doesn't work for
>> most of us, (we find other doctors who use anesthesia!) and find a better
>> way.
>>
>> Anyway, that is my opinion. k
>>
>>
>> On 9/29/06 11:25 AM, "facilitator" <facilitator@david-bohm.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the time has come once again to ask others here how they feel
>>> about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the
>>> benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person
>>> has joined the list under different names and written in
>>> pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.)
>>>
>>> Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am
>>> writing this:
>>>
>>> He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point,
>>> He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of
>>> dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without
>>> suggesting any alternative other than parrotting those
>>> who would likely have considered it a waste of time.
>>>
>>> Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is
>>> suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts
>>> any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our
>>> explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are
>>> right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"?
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic?
>>>
>>> don
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live
> Spaces
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.g
> et.live.com/spaces/features
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 01:38:13 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 02:33:33 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
In-Reply-To: <20060929.122708.3964.65.ae.dropper@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C14326A5.3390%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Your thought and words are very musical, Pat. k
On 9/29/06 12:24 PM, "ae.dropper@juno.com" <ae.dropper@juno.com> wrote:
> Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
> indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
> [of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
> actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary "slowing"
> within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while arbitrarily
> so], "scenes."
>
> pat
>
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting 3-4
>> meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing music
>> with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants and/or
>> corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience is an
>> absence of self-image/ role.
>>
>> If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
>> experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which were
>> the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be without
>> the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks.
>>
>> But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to refit
>> itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely fine if it
>> was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something more for me to
>> do in human form. And making the decision to return to fulfill that
>> something is a vivid memory of choice.
>>
>> That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs masks,
>> self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They are an
>> essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
>> Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I
>> could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of
>> self-image for conscious awareness. _R
>> .
>> .
>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
>> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> .
>> Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
>> joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Sep 30 00:21:29 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 02:54:35 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
Message-ID: <20060929.152130.636.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Aurelien,
If you're not spam, quit acting like you are. This isn't a text messaging
environment, or a chat group. We use English to discuss ideas here at
length, and not in an uncommented series of links or images. Many members
here are only using email rather than being able to hang out online
because they have limited www access internationally, where it's
expensive.
So if you have a link to post, write something about it and tell us why
you want us to look at it and what motivated you to want us to look at it
- and we'll all write about it.
The reason you come across as a spammer is that you are merely
duplicating whatever we say by sending us a link, and posting so many
links in a very short period of time. Don't be obcessive! It will only
result in members blocking your email address, if we let you stay. There
are enough posts on this list every day for you to get many replies, if
you say something about your own experience. Be patient and lay back and
quit posting twenty times a day if you want to stay! We've had trouble
before with members "bombing" an older list. In fact, we may suspect that
a former member that has caused trouble in the past is impersonating you
- or visa-versa.
When you quote, please use only the relevant parts and remove the
extraranous headers, list notices, etc. of multiple posts. We do not
automatically truncate messages here.
If you had read something about Bohm, I'm sorry to inform you that you
did not find out that David Bohm is deceased. However, some of his
contemporaries are here on this list that you can write with. - Franis
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:24:32 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org writes:
> hello Kari,
>
> I have discovered Bohm in reading some conversations between Jiddu
> Krishnamurti and him, notably the book: "The limits of thought"
>
>
http://books.google.fr/books?id=S2oVD12RbY0C&pg=PP7&lpg=PP7&ots=KEniDT8YW
_&dq=the+limit+of+thoughts+bohm&sig=ma9w3H9CMbWBwyg8mAFuMKDO82U
>
> on this links there is also some videos with Bohm and Krishnamurti:
>
>
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php?page=x&type=video&cid=830611&nav=t
d&nid=830611&menu=
>
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php?page=x&type=video&cid=830620&nav=t
d&nid=830620&menu=
>
> aurélien
>
>
> > why are you interested in an online discussion list about David
> Bohm's
> > work and dialogue then? How long have you been interested? How did
> you
> > find us? Do tell!
> >
> > kari
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org>
> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:11:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
> >
> >
> > http://static.flickr.com/107/255870436_8502211ebe.jpg
> >
> >> This is a spammer - get rid of them, Don.
> >>
> >> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:54:15 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org
> writes:
>> >>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 02:02:17 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 02:57:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark
Message-ID: <C1432C49.3392%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
My apologies if this should have been sent to Mark?s private email address.
I tried, and it was returned, so I had no alternative.
Hi Mark -
I took this off the group board because I thought only you and I might be
interested. For work in Eurhythmics, go to the information at www.fier.com
International Federation of Eurhythmics Teachers. It?s an international
listing of what?s available. For more browsing, Google versions of
Dalcroze. I find that if one combines Bohm principles as outlined in
On Creativity, with Dalcroze Eurhythmics, one has a good starting place.
I?m fortunate
to have the memory of the classes with Frances, the teacher, and remember
what she emphasized from Bohm. You?ll find that Dalcroze has pretty much
been restricted to children these days, but it shouldn?t have been, and
didn?t begin that way. But the focus on children will be good for your
interests. Then, just adjust it to adults. Dalcroze didn?t ?teach down? to
children.
He insisted they be treated as young artists. Actually, I have the complete
original
methodology for adults, and its adaptation by Dalcroze for children. You
most likely
won?t be introduced to that. Feel
free to ask, and I?ll fill you in as best I can. The history of Dalcroze,
its connections with theater, dance, art, etc, etc, are unending, and
essential to its
understanding. It is
rooted in the idea that the rhythm of change, from macrocosm to microcosm,
and back again,
is the source of everything.
I introduced principles of Dialog in today?s session of improvisation. Boy,
did it work. The interchange between my teacher and me became a kind of
dialog in which I tried
to show him what was going on in my mind. By exploring processes,
structures, patterns, relationships, and all
the things ?On Creativity? talks about, one can definitely study
improvisation. I delayed responding to this part of your email because I
was working very hard to prepare for today. The discovery of patterns,
structure,
where and how they relate, distilling axioms, and putting a data base on
automatic so you can focus
on finding new connections and meaning is a slow process. But challenging,
therefore very rewarding. My teacher is hanging
in there, even though he says the patterns and relationships are infinite.
Let me know how it goes. Maybe we can take the discussion off the board
somehow.
Best, k
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 02:23:40 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 03:19:00 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <OF59812BA2.4339EB95-ON852571F7.00445E33-852571F7.004961DB@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C143314C.3397%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Francis ? You have described perfectly the group I hope to found. I
belonged to a group like that in many respects, but the members had no idea
of how music is structured, or how its components mesh and work together.
As a result, the inventiveness didn?t invent, the music meandered, and
became boring. One comment from a performance asked what we were all on!
Nobody had taken any kind of mind altering substance. So I plan to
introduce the recognition and utilization of structure into the idea of
improvisation. Once it?s on ?automatic?, my hope is that the participants
will have some fund of knowledge to feed the ?just happening? feeling. As I
work on this for myself, I can feel when I?m between the two trapezes.
Scary, and wonderful. k
On 9/28/06 9:21 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> Rodger __The music that captivates me is playing with other musicians when
> no-one decides what to start with -we just start. The musicians can include
> classical, jazz, flamenco, rock, whatever -- so there is no prefered or
> dominant style.
>
> No one leads. But leading can dance around without warning. The reason I find
> this captivating is because the music-playing quickly enters a state of mind,
> so in-the-moment that everyone knows exactly what note, rhythm, tone, is
> collectively being created.
>
> We play for hours, sometimes days - depending on available time. The music can
> be as serious as any drama, or, witty as a comedy, breaking us into laughter.
>
> I found sharing that experience only possible between certain combinations of
> people. And whether with someone new, or one of the old bunch, over the
> decades it became apparent that once the experience has happened with someone,
> it will continue to -just happen- every time. Like true love.
>
> Ah oh, there is that word -true-.
>
> Anyway alternatively musicians pre-decide what pieces to play before hand, and
> thats great too -indeed they are usually far more accomplished than I- it just
> isnt an option for me._R
> .
> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:33:04 -0700
> From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> .
> Once you start looking for these qualities of music, then you can begin
> to notice what they have in common with the way people use language.
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 02:27:23 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 03:22:43 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
In-Reply-To: <20060927.231342.1436.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C143322B.3399%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Hi Francis -
I'm going to your website tonight. No, Mark and I didn't know each other.
They say nothing happens by chance. Don't know if that's Bohmian or not.
I do appreciate your thoughtful response to my email.
Happy weekend, k
On 9/28/06 2:13 AM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> Hi Kathryn,
> I'm not sure why musicians are so opinionated and defensive, but they are
> for some reason. I guess because playing an instrument takes so much
> education, dedication, even talent. It's always a reflection of being in
> practice also, to stay in shape with doing it.
>
> In this situation, there is no way that you could know my experience
> because you'd never heard me play music. So how could I be miffed at such
> great writing of yours? So often people who are specialists have
> completely forgotten how to carry someone from square one along how they
> are thinking in new ways out on the pioneering forefront. Often
> specialists have built up so many ground floor assumptions that they
> can't explain themselves to novices.
>
> The way I get around that in writing is to make sure the person knows the
> general audience for whom the writing is for - people learning from
> scratch, in this case. Then they have a reason to suspend feeling
> personally insulted. They're encouraged to put themselves in the position
> of being a 'beginner.' I have had people say to me, "I understand what
> you mean, but would someone else?" ...to which I'd reply that I wouldn't
> want them to second guess someone else's abilities - just their feedback
> is enough - because I wanted someone with their particular experience to
> read the simple stuff to make sure it made sense to them.
>
> You could take a peek at my website. I think you'd like my "out for
> improv" idea quite a bit. http://www.franis.org/out4improv/ Essentially
> I'm giving terms to the elements of music as if it were a story, and then
> also describing what people do when they improvise. The purpose is so
> players can recombine them to create new forms, whether they know their
> instrument or not. The same 'plan' (which can become a new form) can be
> used over and over indefinitely varying it.
>
> Do you and Mark know each other already? Strange how you both showed up
> here at once and we all figured out we had this unusual music tangent in
> common.
>
> Franis (no c in my weird name)
>
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 19:29:42 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>> Thank you, Franis. I am honored. I am glad that my assuming you
>> didn't
>> have the experience wasn't insulting to you! I have met people who
>> reacted
>> that way, and I'm looking for a way to say what I need to say
>> without my
>> listener feeling like I'm putting him-her down.
>>
>> Now, back to work on my Improv - the laundry is done! k
>>
>>
>> On 9/27/06 5:52 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is cool, Katheryn, reading your writing and how you take me
>> along
>>> what you say as if I do not have the experience. It makes what
>> you're
>>> building accessible, and is great writing.
>>> Yes, I'm thinking of the ability to create new forms of music
>> itself.
>>>
>>>> People keep telling me I must write,
>>>> because there are no guides out there
>>>> to the information I have come across
>>>> and the way I have put it together.
>>>
>>> Yes! Yes! write about it! I'll read what you write and give my
>> feedback,
>>> if you want someone to cheer you on and make observations and
>>> suggestions. I don't have any attachment to being the only
>> "editor" also.
>>> I've written extensively already about very subjective
>> movement-related
>>> disciplines, so I'm familiar with some of the challenges involved.
>> -
>>> Franis
>>>
>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:48:21 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
>>> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>>>> Good Morning, Franis -
>>>> I definitely agree that Bohm Dialog and improvisation are
>> similar.
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> more so than we realize. You mentioned
>>>> ?...A general improvisational form such as blues or jazz does not
>>>> exist in
>>>>> speaking circles?.
>>>>
>>>> I hear the following assumption underlying that statement - all
>>>> music uses
>>>> the same ?built in? structure . Please correct me if that
>>>> assumption is
>>>> inaccurate, and let me know in what way I have misinterpreted -
>>>> Also,
>>>> Please keep in mind that although my statements today are a
>> product
>>>> of a lot
>>>> of input, the ideas will be constantly evolving, depending on
>> more
>>>> input.
>>>> That said - here is my response.
>>>>
>>>> Music actually has myriad, not a single, ?built in? -
>> relationships,
>>>> patterns, structures, just as the universe does. Just as word
>>>> language does.
>>>> The composer-improviser can set up his or her own form if they
>> are
>>>> aware of
>>>> and fluent in musical vocabulary and syntax, and the
>> relationships
>>>> among all
>>>> the various structures, and not inhibited about doing it. Blues
>> and
>>>> jazz
>>>> with their structures are only two of those manifestations. All
>>>> music
>>>> shares the same raw materials, and many of the same structures,
>> but
>>>> not all
>>>> of its manifestations use the same structural model. Different
>>>> cultures and
>>>> historical eras have made different connections and meanings.
>>>> If you are referring to the fact that the Blues and Jazz
>>>> idioms
>>>> pretty much set up a single musical structure they call ?form?,
>> and
>>>> the
>>>> improvisers create variations on that form ? yes. But all music
>>>> doesn't
>>>> work that way. (There are other differences as well.) Musical
>>>> structure in
>>>> classical music, as one example, isn?t restricted to one general
>>>> form. Not
>>>> only has it developed many ways of creating different forms from
>> its
>>>> various
>>>> folded in structures, one is free to find other ways of linking
>>>> musical
>>>> materials to create new ones. Also, the development of musical
>>>> language
>>>> parallels the interaction, and ideas of different cultures,
>>>> resulting in the
>>>> evolving of different pov?s i.e. styles, patterns, individual
>>>> insights that
>>>> comprise them, and attitudes towards improvisation.
>>>>
>>>> So, my point is that a general improvisational form does not
>>>> automatically
>>>> exist in all musical circumstances, and those that exist do not
>> all
>>>> work on
>>>> a rigid, never changing basis. There are many forms, currently
>>>> existent as
>>>> well as potential, waiting for someone to create, vary, and use
>>>> them. Put
>>>> in the context of ensemble improvisation, that brings us even
>> closer
>>>> to
>>>> Bohm-style dialog.
>>>>
>>>> Best, k
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/25/06 11:15 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kathy & Mark,
>>>>> The in-person act of Bohm Dialogue is similiar to improvisation
>> in
>>>> the
>>>>> context/forum of group interaction with spoken language as the
>>>> activity.
>>>>> A general improvisational form such as blues or jazz does not
>>>> exist in
>>>>> speaking circles, so, in a sense, Bohm-style Dialogue is a sort
>> of
>>>>> improvisational speaking circle.
>>>>> - Franis
>>>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 02:29:39 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 03:24:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
In-Reply-To: <A0C7349B-7DBC-4EFC-A78C-12E95AF654FB@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C14332B3.339A%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
This is awesome! Thank you for finding and printing it. k
On 9/27/06 6:46 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Found it. Yes, well worth reading again. A lot of his experience is
> familar.
>
> don
>
> On 27 Sep 2006, at 22:39, Franis Engel wrote:
>
>> that account by Dwight about drowning would be really cool to read
>> again... Thanks Don! - Franis
>>
>
>>> Twenty five years ago while swimming in the Mediterranean sea on
> a stormy
>>> day I experienced what could quantify as a near death experience.
> While I
>>> did not have the out of body experience common to the many
> individuals
>>> documented by Kubler-Ross and others, you might say I had an out-
> of-mind.
>>> Passing through the various stages of dying-I was swimming a mile
> off shore,
>>> no chance of rescue and I could no longer lift my arms so in the
> end I
>>> surrendered to what appeared to be the ineluctable fact of
> drowning and
>>> death.
>>>
>>> After the feeling of incredulity, and then rage subsided I let
> go. I have
>>> never been able successfully to describe what I felt next. If I
> remain
>>> within the context of this dialogue, I could say that it was as
> if the
>>> entire TAS lifted away, like a heavy wet sweater and my first
> sensation
>>> (which was a thought so my metaphor is imperfect) was: that's all
> it is! It
>>> was truly astonishing! And then I experienced the most indescribable
>>> sensation of euphoria, peace, lightness. Perhaps love may be the
> word,
>>> though I feel so chary of that word. Time and space were gone. In
> fact my
>>> whole existence up that moment seemed to have been a second. As I
> said, not
>>> easy to describe but if I take certain essential attributes of
> what I
>>> understand (imperfectly) about TAS along with so much that is
> expressed
>>> here, it felt like stepping outside of all that. Perhaps that is
> why it
>>> cannot be elucidated since it was potentially beyond thought. I
> don't know.
>>> I cannot say with certainty what it was.
>>>
>>> I won't tell the whole story, but obviously I didn't die. (Though
> how would
>>> any of you know for sure?) When I came to, since I had dropped
> completely
>>> into an unconscious state, I repeated all the stages of dying in
> reverse. I
>>> felt that wet sweater fit itself once again upon my being and I
> can tell
>>> you, I was enraged. Out of my mind actually. I had to be
> restrained. I felt
>>> cheated.
>>>
>>> The thing is that I think it was possible that somewhere in his
> mind Bohm
>>> knew his final minutes were upon him so that it became as Whitman
> so aptly
>>> wrote: "the delicious nearby freedom of death." It is feasible
> that when he
>>> said to his wife "I feel that I am on the edge of something,"
> that a part of
>>> his psyche knew and was experiencing what that meant. There seems
> a point in
>>> the unfolding from implicate to explicate where the personal
> psyche knows
>>> irrefutably, whether or not it has yet risen to the surface of
>>> consciousness. For myself, that is what I sense is the
> paradoxical nature of
>>> choice: we must participate as if we had a choice but afterwards
> can we ever
>>> really be absolutely certain that we had one?
>>>
>>> Enough. This is what happens when you sit and listen for a long
> time. When
>>> you start clicking keys you can?t stop.
>>>
>>> Dwight
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 02:35:54 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 03:31:13 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20060927.145252.916.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C143342A.339D%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Yes. For more on music as a language, see Leonard Bernstein, "The
Unanswered Question: Six Lectures at Harvard." He gets very specific in his
comparison. Draws on Vgotsky, if I remember correctly.
The same way we learned our language, yet are able to converse (improvise),
and at the same time, write a composition for many different kinds of
audiences (compose), we can study music and be able to both improvise
(compose spontaneously), and compose (write the sounds down, and take our
time about revising them). k
On 9/27/06 5:33 PM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> Yeah- More specifically, I'm thinking about that the emotional
> experiences of music can reveal more about how you can use the sequences
> of what you talk about to create an emotional experience that is filled
> with meaning beyond words. In a sense, it's a little like learning the
> skills for making a movie/a story affect people emotionally. In words,
> how can you present a sequence of what you choose to talk about, and how
> you talk about it to have certain emotional effects that you'd like the
> meaning to carry?
>
> It's not something many people would imagine, but there are some people
> who already have made the connection that music is really another
> language, with its own syntax, etc. It helps to know how to play any
> instrument and to be able to do on purpose what music that you can play
> specifically will emotionally affects people. Just like it helps to know
> two languages well so you can compare them to reveal their differences.
>
> My instrument designer friend Bill Wesley says that everyone agrees on
> the qualities of music, so that's why he agrees that music is a language.
> People differ widely on whether they want to experience any particular
> quality or not that music can provide. There are many people who are very
> arrogant of which music is "real music." He says they are really only
> opinionated about whether they want to feel a certain way or not.
>
> Once you start looking for these qualities of music, then you can begin
> to notice what they have in common with the way people use language.
>
> It's a very sophisticated connection that most people never imagine.
> Franis
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 09:31:51 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
>
>> Rodger __ Hi Franis, I think your thought of -using the linguistics
>> of
>> music to reveal the assumptions of putting
>> meaning into words- is EXTREMELY cool!! _R
>> .
>> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:10:06 -0700
>> From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] welcoming content
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> .
>> Sort of like using the linguistics of music to reveal the
>> assumptions of
>> putting
>> meaning into words.
>> .
>> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 03:52:48 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 04:48:08 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] attachments
Message-ID: <C1434630.339E%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Please note ? I have sent no attachments in my posts. If you receive email
from me with an attachment ? DON?T open it. I didn?t send it. k
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From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Sep 30 08:42:03 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 09:50:32 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <20060929.235108.1668.2.franis_franis@juno.com>
Yeah, Rodger is great at describing music, aren't you Roger?
I don't know where you are, but if you ever go to San Diego, you should
look up the Sonic Gallery, via Jonathan Glazier. Playing with those guys,
(who are microtonalists) will make you very happy. - Franis
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:23:40 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
> Francis You have described perfectly the group I hope to found. I
> belonged to a group like that in many respects, but the members had
> no idea
> of how music is structured, or how its components mesh and work
> together.
> As a result, the inventiveness didnıt invent, the music meandered,
> and
> became boring. One comment from a performance asked what we were
> all on!
> Nobody had taken any kind of mind altering substance. So I plan to
> introduce the recognition and utilization of structure into the idea
> of
> improvisation. Once itıs on ³automatic², my hope is that the
> participants
> will have some fund of knowledge to feed the ³just happening²
> feeling. As I
> work on this for myself, I can feel when Iım between the two
> trapezes.
> Scary, and wonderful. k
>
>
> On 9/28/06 9:21 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Rodger __The music that captivates me is playing with other
> musicians when
> > no-one decides what to start with -we just start. The musicians
> can include
> > classical, jazz, flamenco, rock, whatever -- so there is no
> prefered or
> > dominant style.
> >
> > No one leads. But leading can dance around without warning. The
> reason I find
> > this captivating is because the music-playing quickly enters a
> state of mind,
> > so in-the-moment that everyone knows exactly what note, rhythm,
> tone, is
> > collectively being created.
> >
> > We play for hours, sometimes days - depending on available time.
> The music can
> > be as serious as any drama, or, witty as a comedy, breaking us
> into laughter.
> >
> > I found sharing that experience only possible between certain
> combinations of
> > people. And whether with someone new, or one of the old bunch,
> over the
> > decades it became apparent that once the experience has happened
> with someone,
> > it will continue to -just happen- every time. Like true love.
> >
> > Ah oh, there is that word -true-.
> >
> > Anyway alternatively musicians pre-decide what pieces to play
> before hand, and
> > thats great too -indeed they are usually far more accomplished
> than I- it just
> > isnt an option for me._R
> > .
> > Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:33:04 -0700
> > From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > .
> > Once you start looking for these qualities of music, then you can
> begin
> > to notice what they have in common with the way people use
> language.
> > .
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Sep 30 08:38:33 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 09:50:33 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] attachments
Message-ID: <20060929.235108.1668.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
well - when you don't write in plain text, it comes to me as an
attachment. - Franis
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:52:48 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
> Please note I have sent no attachments in my posts. If you receive
> email
> from me with an attachment DONıT open it. I didnıt send it. k
From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Sep 30 08:51:07 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 09:50:34 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: ?
Message-ID: <20060929.235108.1668.3.franis_franis@juno.com>
Somehow I'm missing the getting of quite a few posts that others are
quoting... What's happening? I checked my sub and posts are bouncing for
some mystery reason. Hope I'm not being attacked by the bot.
-Franis
From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Sep 30 08:39:27 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 09:50:35 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark
Message-ID: <20060929.235108.1668.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
I'm really happy to read this - thanks for posting. - Franis
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:02:17 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
> My apologies if this should have been sent to Markıs private email
> address.
> I tried, and it was returned, so I had no alternative.
>
>
> Hi Mark -
> I took this off the group board because I thought only you and I
> might be
> interested. For work in Eurhythmics, go to the information at
> www.fier.com
> International Federation of Eurhythmics Teachers. Itıs an
> international
> listing of whatıs available. For more browsing, Google versions of
> Dalcroze. I find that if one combines Bohm principles as outlined
> in
> On Creativity, with Dalcroze Eurhythmics, one has a good starting
> place.
> Iım fortunate
> to have the memory of the classes with Frances, the teacher, and
> remember
> what she emphasized from Bohm. Youıll find that Dalcroze has pretty
> much
> been restricted to children these days, but it shouldnıt have been,
> and
> didnıt begin that way. But the focus on children will be good for
> your
> interests. Then, just adjust it to adults. Dalcroze didnıt ³teach
> down² to
> children.
> He insisted they be treated as young artists. Actually, I have the
> complete
> original
> methodology for adults, and its adaptation by Dalcroze for children.
> You
> most likely
> wonıt be introduced to that. Feel
> free to ask, and Iıll fill you in as best I can. The history of
> Dalcroze,
> its connections with theater, dance, art, etc, etc, are unending,
> and
> essential to its
> understanding. It is
> rooted in the idea that the rhythm of change, from macrocosm to
> microcosm,
> and back again,
> is the source of everything.
>
> I introduced principles of Dialog in todayıs session of
> improvisation. Boy,
> did it work. The interchange between my teacher and me became a kind
> of
> dialog in which I tried
> to show him what was going on in my mind. By exploring processes,
> structures, patterns, relationships, and all
> the things ³On Creativity² talks about, one can definitely study
> improvisation. I delayed responding to this part of your email
> because I
> was working very hard to prepare for today. The discovery of
> patterns,
> structure,
> where and how they relate, distilling axioms, and putting a data
> base on
> automatic so you can focus
> on finding new connections and meaning is a slow process. But
> challenging,
> therefore very rewarding. My teacher is hanging
> in there, even though he says the patterns and relationships are
> infinite.
>
> Let me know how it goes. Maybe we can take the discussion off the
> board
> somehow.
>
> Best, k
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 09:43:05 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 10:38:31 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] what water(supply) and dialog(demand) have in common
In-Reply-To: <20060929.235108.1668.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F3D8A952C0C56BCFCB706DA8190@phx.gbl>
Dear Chatgroupers (especially for the old man of denial, Donf):
India Digs Deeper,
but Wells Are Drying Up
India is using groundwater so rapidly that some areas have already run out.
In a village in Rajasthan, the state sends in water by train.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/30/world/asia/30water2.html
Love & Welling, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
_________________________________________________________________
Try the new Live Search today!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 10:08:38 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 11:04:02 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark
Message-ID: <463.73aeb788.324f8006@aol.com>
Hi Franis,
Email's a mysterious thing. I don't know why Kathy's email didn't get to me
privately but that did let you see it too, so that's a plus!!
Mark
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From edgelink at no-log.org Sat Sep 30 11:26:38 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 12:27:14 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <20060929.235108.1668.2.franis_franis@juno.com>
References: <20060929.235108.1668.2.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <1221.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159608398.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Hello,
What are your impressions about this music ?
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
(free subscription to listen the album entirely)
> Yeah, Rodger is great at describing music, aren't you Roger?
> I don't know where you are, but if you ever go to San Diego, you should
> look up the Sonic Gallery, via Jonathan Glazier. Playing with those guys,
> (who are microtonalists) will make you very happy. - Franis
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:23:40 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>> Francis ? You have described perfectly the group I hope to found. I
>> belonged to a group like that in many respects, but the members had
>> no idea
>> of how music is structured, or how its components mesh and work
>> together.
>> As a result, the inventiveness didn?t invent, the music meandered,
>> and
>> became boring. One comment from a performance asked what we were
>> all on!
>> Nobody had taken any kind of mind altering substance. So I plan to
>> introduce the recognition and utilization of structure into the idea
>> of
>> improvisation. Once it?s on ?automatic?, my hope is that the
>> participants
>> will have some fund of knowledge to feed the ?just happening?
>> feeling. As I
>> work on this for myself, I can feel when I?m between the two
>> trapezes.
>> Scary, and wonderful. k
>>
>>
>> On 9/28/06 9:21 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com"
>> <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Rodger __The music that captivates me is playing with other
>> musicians when
>> > no-one decides what to start with -we just start. The musicians
>> can include
>> > classical, jazz, flamenco, rock, whatever -- so there is no
>> prefered or
>> > dominant style.
>> >
>> > No one leads. But leading can dance around without warning. The
>> reason I find
>> > this captivating is because the music-playing quickly enters a
>> state of mind,
>> > so in-the-moment that everyone knows exactly what note, rhythm,
>> tone, is
>> > collectively being created.
>> >
>> > We play for hours, sometimes days - depending on available time.
>> The music can
>> > be as serious as any drama, or, witty as a comedy, breaking us
>> into laughter.
>> >
>> > I found sharing that experience only possible between certain
>> combinations of
>> > people. And whether with someone new, or one of the old bunch,
>> over the
>> > decades it became apparent that once the experience has happened
>> with someone,
>> > it will continue to -just happen- every time. Like true love.
>> >
>> > Ah oh, there is that word -true-.
>> >
>> > Anyway alternatively musicians pre-decide what pieces to play
>> before hand, and
>> > thats great too -indeed they are usually far more accomplished
>> than I- it just
>> > isnt an option for me._R
>> > .
>> > Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:33:04 -0700
>> > From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
>> > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> > .
>> > Once you start looking for these qualities of music, then you can
>> begin
>> > to notice what they have in common with the way people use
>> language.
>> > .
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > info:
>> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>> >
>> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > dialogue facilitator:
>> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > Administrator of the mailing list:
>> > admin@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 11:38:49 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 12:34:16 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <488.d147d83.324f9529@aol.com>
Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue?
Hello,
What are your impressions about this music ?
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
(free subscription to listen the album entirely)
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 11:48:35 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 12:43:58 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
In-Reply-To: <382.bac411a.324ed18d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F1336D9A59201653B786E70A8190@phx.gbl>
Dear Mark
"It" thinkgs
"Me"
Ki
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>Hey, by the way, Kirsten, what do **you** think?
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 11:52:35 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 12:47:59 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
In-Reply-To: <20060929.140145.636.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F33F404E243003FFE927FA8A8190@phx.gbl>
Dear Franis, you might want to check 'your' logic:
ONE spammer > rid of THEM
........mmmmaybe a little bit of A-tech(nique)
could fix that ;-!
Love & Proprioception
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Franis Engel <franis_franis@juno.com>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:01:44 -0700
>
>This is a spammer - get rid of them, Don.
>
>On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:54:15 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org writes:
> > http://static.flickr.com/71/195431281_3288bfa14e.jpg
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
SearchYour way, your world, right now!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 11:56:14 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 12:51:40 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
In-Reply-To: <2879.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159559655.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F1593EB73F8CC707F65AFCFA8190@phx.gbl>
Dear Newone, no, wait,
lets make that: latestaddition
(forgot you name, dis'respectively cannot recall a.t.m.):
Why/How would a jpg 'show' that you are notaspammer
('more') than: words
Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>http://static.flickr.com/71/195431281_3288bfa14e.jpg
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 11:58:43 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 12:54:13 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
In-Reply-To: <20060929.152130.636.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F346EC8E74A3B5B13272DBEA8190@phx.gbl>
Subsriber Engel given instructions/orders
How (not) to do: Dialog
How 'appropriate'
Love & Looseness, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>Aurelien,
>If you're not spam, quit acting like you are. This isn't a text messaging
>environment, or a chat group. We use English to discuss ideas here at
>length, and not in an uncommented series of links or images. Many members
>here are only using email rather than being able to hang out online
>because they have limited www access internationally, where it's
>expensive.
>
>So if you have a link to post, write something about it and tell us why
>you want us to look at it and what motivated you to want us to look at it
>- and we'll all write about it.
>
>The reason you come across as a spammer is that you are merely
>duplicating whatever we say by sending us a link, and posting so many
>links in a very short period of time. Don't be obcessive! It will only
>result in members blocking your email address, if we let you stay. There
>are enough posts on this list every day for you to get many replies, if
>you say something about your own experience. Be patient and lay back and
>quit posting twenty times a day if you want to stay! We've had trouble
>before with members "bombing" an older list. In fact, we may suspect that
>a former member that has caused trouble in the past is impersonating you
>- or visa-versa.
>
>When you quote, please use only the relevant parts and remove the
>extraranous headers, list notices, etc. of multiple posts. We do not
>automatically truncate messages here.
>
>If you had read something about Bohm, I'm sorry to inform you that you
>did not find out that David Bohm is deceased. However, some of his
>contemporaries are here on this list that you can write with. - Franis
>
>On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:24:32 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org writes:
> > hello Kari,
> >
> > I have discovered Bohm in reading some conversations between Jiddu
> > Krishnamurti and him, notably the book: "The limits of thought"
> >
> >
>http://books.google.fr/books?id=S2oVD12RbY0C&pg=PP7&lpg=PP7&ots=KEniDT8YW
>_&dq=the+limit+of+thoughts+bohm&sig=ma9w3H9CMbWBwyg8mAFuMKDO82U
> >
> > on this links there is also some videos with Bohm and Krishnamurti:
> >
> >
>http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php?page=x&type=video&cid=830611&nav=t
>d&nid=830611&menu=
> >
>http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php?page=x&type=video&cid=830620&nav=t
>d&nid=830620&menu=
> >
> > aurélien
> >
> >
> > > why are you interested in an online discussion list about David
> > Bohm's
> > > work and dialogue then? How long have you been interested? How did
> > you
> > > find us? Do tell!
> > >
> > > kari
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org>
> > > To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> > > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:11:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
> > >
> > >
> > > http://static.flickr.com/107/255870436_8502211ebe.jpg
> > >
> > >> This is a spammer - get rid of them, Don.
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:54:15 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org
> > writes:
> >> >>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself - download free Windows Live Messenger themes!
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/themes/vibe/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 12:04:22 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 12:59:48 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
Message-ID: <BAY107-F1684C74891317A538032E9A8190@phx.gbl>
There is a(n) (un)certain a'mount of paranoia at this Chatgroup
That is rather..... how can I say.... : telling
PS:
And hence the i wonders:
Does make mental overshootings good fodder for Dialog?
Love & Eariness, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Karilen Mays <tubakari@yahoo.com>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org>
>To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:11:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] I'm not a spam !
>
>
>http://static.flickr.com/107/255870436_8502211ebe.jpg
>
> > This is a spammer - get rid of them, Don.
> >
> > On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:54:15 +0200 (CEST) edgelink@no-log.org writes:
> >> http://static.flickr.com/71/195431281_3288bfa14e.jpg
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 12:05:48 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 13:01:12 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <1959.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159555055.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F227184000B825201595F38A8190@phx.gbl>
ok: http://www.tomveatch.com/else/tv/SergeyGutkinFH.jpg
>ok:
>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/Abalone_board.jpg
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
> >
> >
> >
> > ok:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000TZ4WA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> > Kbot
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
> >
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Try the new Live Search today!
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 12:07:38 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 13:03:03 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] ,hello
In-Reply-To: <1923.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554814.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F43CF4ADC63CA33698287CA8190@phx.gbl>
>Do you know that 'flipper' means also "to be afraid", in French ?
and
?
Ki
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>Do you know that 'flipper' means also "to be afraid", in French ?
>
>
> >
> >>hello,
> >>
> >>I'm Aurelien, what is the subject ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://pinball.flippers.info/spaceshuttleentireplayfield.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > or in other words :
> >
> > y'our mind
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > well, ok, maybe rather:
> >
> > http://www.plansinwood.com/pinball.jpg
> >
> > .....at any 'rate',
> >
> > welcome to that parlor, aurelien ~ Kirsten
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>info:
> >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >>dialogue facilitator:
> >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >>Administrator of the mailing list:
> >>admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more?then map the best
> > route! http://local.live.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Searchsay hello!
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 12:12:15 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 13:07:44 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
Message-ID: <c0f.5f8f6c8.324f9cff@aol.com>
Hi Ki,
I have **no idea** what you mean!!
Dear Mark
"It" thinkgs
"Me"
Ki
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 14:34:05 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:29:31 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <488.d147d83.324f9529@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C143DC7D.33B2%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Solo improvisation is the equivalent of solo reading and study so you have
some background from which to create and continue dialog. It?s prerequisite
to the making of meaning. k
On 9/30/06 5:38 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue?
>> Hello,
>>
>> What are your impressions about this music ?
>>
>> http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
>> (free subscription to listen the album entirely)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 14:38:10 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:33:38 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
In-Reply-To: <c0f.5f8f6c8.324f9cff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F25D70119F796801ED31A41A8190@phx.gbl>
Dear Mark ~
"i" is ('simply') a function, an operation of the system (TAS , Thought As a
System), rather than the other way around.
PS: good to see that somebody is actually asking questions around here when
somethinkg is ... fishiii
Love & Scubadiving, Kbot
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>Hi Ki,
>
>I have **no idea** what you mean!!
>
>
>Dear Mark
>
>"It" thinkgs
>
>"Me"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Ki
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 14:39:37 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:35:02 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark
In-Reply-To: <20060929.235108.1668.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C143DDC9.33B5%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
I'm glad it didn't get into Mark's private email box, then. Do you want me
to send you copies of any future exchanges on Dalcroze? If so, perhaps you
should send me your email since others may not want to read it. k
On 9/30/06 2:39 AM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> I'm really happy to read this - thanks for posting. - Franis
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:02:17 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>> My apologies if this should have been sent to Mark?s private email
>> address.
>> I tried, and it was returned, so I had no alternative.
>>
>>
>> Hi Mark -
>> I took this off the group board because I thought only you and I
>> might be
>> interested. For work in Eurhythmics, go to the information at
>> www.fier.com
>> International Federation of Eurhythmics Teachers. It?s an
>> international
>> listing of what?s available. For more browsing, Google versions of
>> Dalcroze. I find that if one combines Bohm principles as outlined
>> in
>> On Creativity, with Dalcroze Eurhythmics, one has a good starting
>> place.
>> I?m fortunate
>> to have the memory of the classes with Frances, the teacher, and
>> remember
>> what she emphasized from Bohm. You?ll find that Dalcroze has pretty
>> much
>> been restricted to children these days, but it shouldn?t have been,
>> and
>> didn?t begin that way. But the focus on children will be good for
>> your
>> interests. Then, just adjust it to adults. Dalcroze didn?t ?teach
>> down? to
>> children.
>> He insisted they be treated as young artists. Actually, I have the
>> complete
>> original
>> methodology for adults, and its adaptation by Dalcroze for children.
>> You
>> most likely
>> won?t be introduced to that. Feel
>> free to ask, and I?ll fill you in as best I can. The history of
>> Dalcroze,
>> its connections with theater, dance, art, etc, etc, are unending,
>> and
>> essential to its
>> understanding. It is
>> rooted in the idea that the rhythm of change, from macrocosm to
>> microcosm,
>> and back again,
>> is the source of everything.
>>
>> I introduced principles of Dialog in today?s session of
>> improvisation. Boy,
>> did it work. The interchange between my teacher and me became a kind
>> of
>> dialog in which I tried
>> to show him what was going on in my mind. By exploring processes,
>> structures, patterns, relationships, and all
>> the things ?On Creativity? talks about, one can definitely study
>> improvisation. I delayed responding to this part of your email
>> because I
>> was working very hard to prepare for today. The discovery of
>> patterns,
>> structure,
>> where and how they relate, distilling axioms, and putting a data
>> base on
>> automatic so you can focus
>> on finding new connections and meaning is a slow process. But
>> challenging,
>> therefore very rewarding. My teacher is hanging
>> in there, even though he says the patterns and relationships are
>> infinite.
>>
>> Let me know how it goes. Maybe we can take the discussion off the
>> board
>> somehow.
>>
>> Best, k
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 14:39:47 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:35:14 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Death-wish, death-instinct
In-Reply-To: <C14332B3.339A%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F99B09AE0331240F4192DFA8190@phx.gbl>
Why did Dwight leave Dialog?
Love & Curiosities, Ki
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>This is awesome! Thank you for finding and printing it. k
>
>
>On 9/27/06 6:46 PM, "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Found it. Yes, well worth reading again. A lot of his experience is
> > familar.
> >
> > don
> >
> > On 27 Sep 2006, at 22:39, Franis Engel wrote:
> >
> >> that account by Dwight about drowning would be really cool to read
> >> again... Thanks Don! - Franis
> >>
> >
> >>> Twenty five years ago while swimming in the Mediterranean sea on
> > a stormy
> >>> day I experienced what could quantify as a near death experience.
> > While I
> >>> did not have the out of body experience common to the many
> > individuals
> >>> documented by Kubler-Ross and others, you might say I had an out-
> > of-mind.
> >>> Passing through the various stages of dying-I was swimming a mile
> > off shore,
> >>> no chance of rescue and I could no longer lift my arms so in the
> > end I
> >>> surrendered to what appeared to be the ineluctable fact of
> > drowning and
> >>> death.
> >>>
> >>> After the feeling of incredulity, and then rage subsided I let
> > go. I have
> >>> never been able successfully to describe what I felt next. If I
> > remain
> >>> within the context of this dialogue, I could say that it was as
> > if the
> >>> entire TAS lifted away, like a heavy wet sweater and my first
> > sensation
> >>> (which was a thought so my metaphor is imperfect) was: that's all
> > it is! It
> >>> was truly astonishing! And then I experienced the most indescribable
> >>> sensation of euphoria, peace, lightness. Perhaps love may be the
> > word,
> >>> though I feel so chary of that word. Time and space were gone. In
> > fact my
> >>> whole existence up that moment seemed to have been a second. As I
> > said, not
> >>> easy to describe but if I take certain essential attributes of
> > what I
> >>> understand (imperfectly) about TAS along with so much that is
> > expressed
> >>> here, it felt like stepping outside of all that. Perhaps that is
> > why it
> >>> cannot be elucidated since it was potentially beyond thought. I
> > don't know.
> >>> I cannot say with certainty what it was.
> >>>
> >>> I won't tell the whole story, but obviously I didn't die. (Though
> > how would
> >>> any of you know for sure?) When I came to, since I had dropped
> > completely
> >>> into an unconscious state, I repeated all the stages of dying in
> > reverse. I
> >>> felt that wet sweater fit itself once again upon my being and I
> > can tell
> >>> you, I was enraged. Out of my mind actually. I had to be
> > restrained. I felt
> >>> cheated.
> >>>
> >>> The thing is that I think it was possible that somewhere in his
> > mind Bohm
> >>> knew his final minutes were upon him so that it became as Whitman
> > so aptly
> >>> wrote: "the delicious nearby freedom of death." It is feasible
> > that when he
> >>> said to his wife "I feel that I am on the edge of something,"
> > that a part of
> >>> his psyche knew and was experiencing what that meant. There seems
> > a point in
> >>> the unfolding from implicate to explicate where the personal
> > psyche knows
> >>> irrefutably, whether or not it has yet risen to the surface of
> >>> consciousness. For myself, that is what I sense is the
> > paradoxical nature of
> >>> choice: we must participate as if we had a choice but afterwards
> > can we ever
> >>> really be absolutely certain that we had one?
> >>>
> >>> Enough. This is what happens when you sit and listen for a long
> > time. When
> >>> you start clicking keys you canıt stop.
> >>>
> >>> Dwight
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 14:40:38 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:36:03 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] attachments
In-Reply-To: <20060929.235108.1668.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <C143DE06.33B6%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
oh - I didn't know that. I don't even know how to switch to plain text. k
On 9/30/06 2:38 AM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
> well - when you don't write in plain text, it comes to me as an
> attachment. - Franis
>
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:52:48 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>> Please note ? I have sent no attachments in my posts. If you receive
>> email
>> from me with an attachment ? DON?T open it. I didn?t send it. k
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 14:39:23 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:37:52 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
References: <BAY107-F32BF485CCBF26E76D6FDE1A81B0@phx.gbl>
<6B21E051-F966-417D-9C9C-9C91BC84B864@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001801c6e48d$cff3f070$016d153f@DL01>
Charles Darwin? Why not go back a little further to Bishop Berkeley? -- Don
F
Why not go back a lot further, as does Bohm, to Parmenides, Heraclitus?
Maybe the answer is that it is so much easier to talk trash than to
seriously consider that line of thought from Parmenides/Heraclitus through
Berkeley to Bohm, to modern physics theory. It is much easier to 'chat', to
ignore dialogue, to ignore _On Dialogue_ and its relationship to that _line
of thought which Bohm suggests may be 'the way out' of modern civilizations
delemma. -- Don L
From: "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:41 AM
>
> Charles Darwin? Why not go back a little further to Bishop Berkeley?
>
> Do you not know that Evolutionary theory has come a very long way beyond
> this kind of idea? About time you get hold of some more up-to- date
> literature.
>
> These days about the only person I can think of who would take this
> notion literally is Richard Dawkina, the high priest of materialism. Who
> actually earns his salary by defending this sort of point of view.
>
> Come on K, you can do better than that.
>
> don
>>
>>
>> Dear Nowmybrainisdoingitdonf ~
>>
>> Experience shows the problem of the mind cannot be solved by attacking
>> the citadel itself -the mind is a function of body.
>>
>> (Charles Darwin, The "N" Notebook)
>>
>> ... and yet, a few hundred years later, critters, suckling on bohmian
>> tits, (still) drool...
>>
>> ...togetit..
>>
>> ...aaaaaaaall....
>>
>>
>> oooooowell
>>
>>
>> Love & Noevolution, Kirsten
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 14:43:41 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:39:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
In-Reply-To: <C1430F67.3384%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F14679D7B03219C24C10A2DA8190@phx.gbl>
Dear Canbedangerouskathryn ~ it is a matter howthinkgs
are (un)done: Argentine and Ballroom
Tango use very different techniques
and vocabularies, to the point where some consider them
related in name only.
In Argentine tango, the body's center moves first, then the
feet reach to support it. In ballroom tango the feet move and
the whole body weight follows.
Ballroom tango steps are staccato, and generally follow a
specific "slow, slow, quick, quick, slow" rhythm. The "slow"
steps are best described as 'quick, hold', as the dancer
rushes to step and then holds before rushing to the next
step. This matches the staccato accents that appear in
ballroom tango music.
In Argentine tango, the steps are typically more gliding, but
can vary widely in timing, speed, and character, and follow
no single specific rhythm. Because the dance is lead and
followed at the level of individual steps, these variations
can occur from one step to the next. This allows the dancers
to vary the dance from moment to moment to match the music
(which often has both legato and/or staccato elements) and
their mood.
The Argentine Tango's frame, called an abrazo or "embrace,"
is not rigid, but flexibly adjusts to different steps, and
may vary from being quite close, to offset in a "V" frame, to
open. The Ballroom Tango's frame is more rigid, with the arms
tenser and held higher.
There is a closed position as in other types of ballroom
dance, but it differs significantly between types of tango.
In Argentine Tango, the "close embrace" involves continuous
contact at the full upper body, but not the legs. In Ballroom
tango, the "close embrace" involves close contact only at the
hips and upper thighs, and not the upper torso.
In Argentine Tango, the ball or toe of the foot may be placed
first. Alternately, the dancer may take the floor with the
entire foot in a cat-like manner. In the International style
of Tango, "heel leads" (stepping first onto the heel, then
the whole foot) are used for forward steps.
Ballroom tango steps stay close to the floor, while the
Argentine Tango includes moves such as the boleo (allowing
momentum to carry one's leg into the air) and gancho (hooking
one's leg around one's partner's leg or body) in which the
feet travel off the ground. Argentine Tango features other
vocabulary foreign to ballroom, such as the parada (in which
the leader puts his foot against the follower's foot), the
arrastre (in which the leader appears to drag or be dragged
by the follower's foot), and several kinds of sacada (in
which the leader displaces the follower's leg by stepping
into her space).
Love & Offtraildancing, Kirsten
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:59:03 -0400
>
>I just hope we can all walk in and out of alternate realities, and keep our
>balance. You know, those tango steps can be dangerous. Watch them again
>with that thought in mind! k
>
>
>On 9/29/06 1:12 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Dropper
> >
> > "Too much sanity may be madness, and the maddest of all, to see life as
>it
> > is and not as it should be." Miguel de Cervantes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Love & Tango, Kirsten
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >> Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
> >> indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
> >> [of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
> >> actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary "slowing"
> >> within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while
> >> arbitrarily so], "scenes."
> >>
> >> pat
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
> >> Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting
>3-4
> >> meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing
> >> music with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants
> >> and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience
> >> is an absence of self-image/ role.
> >>
> >> If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
> >> experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which
> >> were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be
> >> without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks.
> >>
> >> But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to
> >> refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely
> >> fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something
> >> more for me to do in human form. And making the decision to return to
> >> fulfill that something is a vivid memory of choice.
> >>
> >> That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs
> >> masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They
>are
> >> an essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
> >> Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I
> >> could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of
> >> self-image for conscious awareness. _R
> >> .
> >> .
> >> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
> >> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
> >> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> >> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> >> .
> >> Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
> >> joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
> >
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
then map the best
> > route! http://local.live.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From vroneill at gmail.com Sat Sep 30 14:47:31 2006
From: vroneill at gmail.com (Veronica O'Neill)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:42:54 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] ,hello
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F43CF4ADC63CA33698287CA8190@phx.gbl>
References: <1923.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554814.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F43CF4ADC63CA33698287CA8190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <aa4c04700609300547kc25a96cq48ed2b41742e1432@mail.gmail.com>
'Flipper' doesn't have quite the same meaning as 'to be afraid' ,
which is more literally translated as 'avoir peur'. 'Flipper' implies
some sort of reaction to the fear being felt.
On 9/30/06, kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Do you know that 'flipper' means also "to be afraid", in French ?
>
>
> and
>
> ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ki
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
> >Do you know that 'flipper' means also "to be afraid", in French ?
> >
> >
> > >
> > >>hello,
> > >>
> > >>I'm Aurelien, what is the subject ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://pinball.flippers.info/spaceshuttleentireplayfield.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > or in other words :
> > >
> > > y'our mind
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > well, ok, maybe rather:
> > >
> > > http://www.plansinwood.com/pinball.jpg
> > >
> > > .....at any 'rate',
> > >
> > > welcome to that parlor, aurelien ~ Kirsten
> > >
> > > --------------------------
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>info:
> > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >>
> > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > >>
> > >>dialogue facilitator:
> > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > >>
> > >>Administrator of the mailing list:
> > >>admin@david-bohm.net
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more?then map the best
> > > route! http://local.live.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > info:
> > > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> > >
> > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > > dialogue facilitator:
> > > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > > admin@david-bohm.net
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >info:
> >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> >dialogue facilitator:
> >facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> >Administrator of the mailing list:
> >admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The next generation of Search?say hello!
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From kirstenschneide at hotmail.com Sat Sep 30 14:52:04 2006
From: kirstenschneide at hotmail.com (kirsten schneide)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:47:32 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
In-Reply-To: <C14325D8.338E%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY107-F341EACE6CAC7CBEE9F2FC1A8190@phx.gbl>
>That's the big one.
........ and?
Ki
ps: http://tinyurl.com/gzsyg
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
I'm saving that answer for last, because it may be
>long. It may not be what you intended, but it provoked considerable
>thought
>on my part. That and your imagery of Bohm's teats! Best, k
>
>
>On 9/29/06 1:51 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Kathryn ~
> >
> > "operation"?
> >
> > hm
> >
> > what un'kind of operation (do you see) is (not) going on here?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Love & Fillintheblanks, Kirsten
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
> >
> >> Another option - don't get hooked into responding in kind. Read
>through
> >> the
> >> facade to the content beneath. The facade doesn't help create a safe
>space
> >> for many, but I have known many like him. They were insightful,
>creative,
> >> and talented, among other things - as I presently perceive him.
>Perhaps he
> >> sees his role (temporarily?) as a kind of gadfly. Pushing all of us
>along
> >> to think out of the Bohm box. And I am sure that as valuable as Bohm
>is,
> >> other thinkers have built on his ideas and added valuable contributions
>of
> >> their own. And, I believe KP gets input from us that propels his own
> >> understanding to new spaces. Which again is Bohm, as I understand him.
> >>
> >> He was one of the first to welcome me. That is a comment about his
> >> underlying attitude towards people, I believe.
> >>
> >> My sons freaked me out when I first heard them call each other "dog"!
>But
> >> they are inseparable, and take care of each other.
> >>
> >> Maybe he will realize that operating without anesthesia doesn't work
>for
> >> most of us, (we find other doctors who use anesthesia!) and find a
>better
> >> way.
> >>
> >> Anyway, that is my opinion. k
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/29/06 11:25 AM, "facilitator" <facilitator@david-bohm.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think the time has come once again to ask others here how they feel
> >>> about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the
> >>> benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person
> >>> has joined the list under different names and written in
> >>> pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.)
> >>>
> >>> Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am
> >>> writing this:
> >>>
> >>> He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point,
> >>> He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of
> >>> dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without
> >>> suggesting any alternative other than parrotting those
> >>> who would likely have considered it a waste of time.
> >>>
> >>> Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is
> >>> suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts
> >>> any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our
> >>> explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are
> >>> right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"?
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic?
> >>>
> >>> don
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> info:
> >>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>>
> >>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> dialogue facilitator:
> >>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >>> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows
>Live
> > Spaces
> >
>http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.g
> > et.live.com/spaces/features
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>info:
>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
>dialogue facilitator:
>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
>Administrator of the mailing list:
>admin@david-bohm.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live
Spaces
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.get.live.com/spaces/features
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 14:51:56 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:47:44 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F35EAB9785BE63C3787487FA8180@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C143E0AC.33BC%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Morning Kris -
I think it's more important to hear your ideas on how change in people's
thinking occurs, than for me to expound on the topic. I'd love to listen and
respond to your insights. What kind of operation do YOU see here?
Also - what would you truly like to be called? I don't think you should
wear a mask unless you want to. And if you do want to, what kind do you
want?
Further - I'm very interested to know what kind of creative pursuits you
prefer for your own self expression. Lest my meaning is nebulous, I mean
like mine is music and the art of teaching.
Love, and I can't Fillintheblanksfor you. k
On 9/29/06 1:51 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Kathryn ~
>
> "operation"?
>
> hm
>
> what un'kind of operation (do you see) is (not) going on here?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Love & Fillintheblanks, Kirsten
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>> Another option - don't get hooked into responding in kind. Read through
>> the
>> facade to the content beneath. The facade doesn't help create a safe space
>> for many, but I have known many like him. They were insightful, creative,
>> and talented, among other things - as I presently perceive him. Perhaps he
>> sees his role (temporarily?) as a kind of gadfly. Pushing all of us along
>> to think out of the Bohm box. And I am sure that as valuable as Bohm is,
>> other thinkers have built on his ideas and added valuable contributions of
>> their own. And, I believe KP gets input from us that propels his own
>> understanding to new spaces. Which again is Bohm, as I understand him.
>>
>> He was one of the first to welcome me. That is a comment about his
>> underlying attitude towards people, I believe.
>>
>> My sons freaked me out when I first heard them call each other "dog"! But
>> they are inseparable, and take care of each other.
>>
>> Maybe he will realize that operating without anesthesia doesn't work for
>> most of us, (we find other doctors who use anesthesia!) and find a better
>> way.
>>
>> Anyway, that is my opinion. k
>>
>>
>> On 9/29/06 11:25 AM, "facilitator" <facilitator@david-bohm.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the time has come once again to ask others here how they feel
>>> about Kirsten/Peter's presence on this list. (For the
>>> benefit of newcomers, this would be the third time that this person
>>> has joined the list under different names and written in
>>> pretty much the same way thus leading to this sort of discussion.)
>>>
>>> Here are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me while I am
>>> writing this:
>>>
>>> He/she seems to want to get kicked off in order to prove some point,
>>> He/she puts a lot of energy into attacking both the activity of
>>> dialogue and some of those who are engaged in doing it, without
>>> suggesting any alternative other than parrotting those
>>> who would likely have considered it a waste of time.
>>>
>>> Further thoughts: would unsubscribing him/her be anti-dialogical? Is
>>> suggesting that people simply delete offensive posts
>>> any better? Does his/her continued presence add to or enrich our
>>> explorations? Or, what if we told her/him, "You are
>>> right. It is a waste of time, We are all going to quit,"?
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions on this topic?
>>>
>>> don
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to Windows Live
> Spaces
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.g
> et.live.com/spaces/features
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From edgelink at no-log.org Sat Sep 30 14:52:21 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:53:03 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] ,hello
In-Reply-To: <aa4c04700609300547kc25a96cq48ed2b41742e1432@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1923.AQQDWg1SUXk=.1159554814.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<BAY107-F43CF4ADC63CA33698287CA8190@phx.gbl>
<aa4c04700609300547kc25a96cq48ed2b41742e1432@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3066.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159620741.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Do you know "Flipper the dolphin" ?
http://jeannero.free.fr/dessins-animes/flipperledauphin.jpg
> 'Flipper' doesn't have quite the same meaning as 'to be afraid' ,
> which is more literally translated as 'avoir peur'. 'Flipper' implies
> some sort of reaction to the fear being felt.
>
>
> On 9/30/06, kirsten schneide <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Do you know that 'flipper' means also "to be afraid", in French ?
>>
>>
>> and
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ki
>> --------------------------
>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>
>>
>> >Do you know that 'flipper' means also "to be afraid", in French ?
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >>hello,
>> > >>
>> > >>I'm Aurelien, what is the subject ?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > http://pinball.flippers.info/spaceshuttleentireplayfield.jpg
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > or in other words :
>> > >
>> > > y'our mind
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > well, ok, maybe rather:
>> > >
>> > > http://www.plansinwood.com/pinball.jpg
>> > >
>> > > .....at any 'rate',
>> > >
>> > > welcome to that parlor, aurelien ~ Kirsten
>> > >
>> > > --------------------------
>> > > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>_______________________________________________
>> > >>info:
>> > >>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>> > >>
>> > >>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>> > >>
>> > >>dialogue facilitator:
>> > >>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>> > >>
>> > >>Administrator of the mailing list:
>> > >>admin@david-bohm.net
>> > >>
>> > >>_______________________________________________
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > _________________________________________________________________
>> > > Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more?then map the
>> best
>> > > route! http://local.live.com
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > info:
>> > > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>> > >
>> > > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>> > >
>> > > dialogue facilitator:
>> > > facilitator@david-bohm.net
>> > >
>> > > Administrator of the mailing list:
>> > > admin@david-bohm.net
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >info:
>> >www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>> >
>> >post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> >dialogue facilitator:
>> >facilitator@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> >Administrator of the mailing list:
>> >admin@david-bohm.net
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> The next generation of Search?say hello!
>> http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 15:04:08 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 15:59:55 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F14679D7B03219C24C10A2DA8190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C143E388.33C0%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Hi Kris - you have me chuckling about my new name. I consider that an
honor. As for the description of the two styles of tango - it simply
confirms what I said about keeping your balance as one walks in, out of and
between alternate realities!
This allows the dancers
>
> to vary the dance from moment to moment to match the music
I didn't know this. I love the tango, and now - even more. Thanks, k
On 9/30/06 8:43 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Canbedangerouskathryn ~ it is a matter howthinkgs
>
> are (un)done: Argentine and Ballroom
>
> Tango use very different techniques
>
> and vocabularies, to the point where some consider them
>
> related in name only.
>
> In Argentine tango, the body's center moves first, then the
>
> feet reach to support it. In ballroom tango the feet move and
>
> the whole body weight follows.
>
> Ballroom tango steps are staccato, and generally follow a
>
> specific "slow, slow, quick, quick, slow" rhythm. The "slow"
>
> steps are best described as 'quick, hold', as the dancer
>
> rushes to step and then holds before rushing to the next
>
> step. This matches the staccato accents that appear in
>
> ballroom tango music.
>
> In Argentine tango, the steps are typically more gliding, but
>
> can vary widely in timing, speed, and character, and follow
>
> no single specific rhythm. Because the dance is lead and
>
> followed at the level of individual steps, these variations
>
> can occur from one step to the next. This allows the dancers
>
> to vary the dance from moment to moment to match the music
>
> (which often has both legato and/or staccato elements) and
>
> their mood.
>
> The Argentine Tango's frame, called an abrazo or "embrace,"
>
> is not rigid, but flexibly adjusts to different steps, and
>
> may vary from being quite close, to offset in a "V" frame, to
>
> open. The Ballroom Tango's frame is more rigid, with the arms
>
> tenser and held higher.
>
> There is a closed position as in other types of ballroom
>
> dance, but it differs significantly between types of tango.
>
> In Argentine Tango, the "close embrace" involves continuous
>
> contact at the full upper body, but not the legs. In Ballroom
>
> tango, the "close embrace" involves close contact only at the
>
> hips and upper thighs, and not the upper torso.
>
> In Argentine Tango, the ball or toe of the foot may be placed
>
> first. Alternately, the dancer may take the floor with the
>
> entire foot in a cat-like manner. In the International style
>
> of Tango, "heel leads" (stepping first onto the heel, then
>
> the whole foot) are used for forward steps.
>
> Ballroom tango steps stay close to the floor, while the
>
> Argentine Tango includes moves such as the boleo (allowing
>
> momentum to carry one's leg into the air) and gancho (hooking
>
> one's leg around one's partner's leg or body) in which the
>
> feet travel off the ground. Argentine Tango features other
>
> vocabulary foreign to ballroom, such as the parada (in which
>
> the leader puts his foot against the follower's foot), the
>
> arrastre (in which the leader appears to drag or be dragged
>
> by the follower's foot), and several kinds of sacada (in
>
> which the leader displaces the follower's leg by stepping
>
> into her space).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Love & Offtraildancing, Kirsten
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>> Reply-To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>> To: <bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: death?
>> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:59:03 -0400
>>
>> I just hope we can all walk in and out of alternate realities, and keep our
>> balance. You know, those tango steps can be dangerous. Watch them again
>> with that thought in mind! k
>>
>>
>> On 9/29/06 1:12 PM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Dropper
>>>
>>> "Too much sanity may be madness, and the maddest of all, to see life as
>> it
>>> is and not as it should be." Miguel de Cervantes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Love & Tango, Kirsten
>>>
>>> --------------------------
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>> Self image[s] (or self/world images) can be worn lightly
>>>> indeed. There is awareness of "dance" between the 'conditions'
>>>> [of thought] and their manifest forms. There is awareness of the
>>>> actuality of the fluidity of it all, along with the necessary "slowing"
>>>> within the fluidity, in the form of changing, intelligible [while
>>>> arbitrarily so], "scenes."
>>>>
>>>> pat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 08:21:21 -0400 Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com writes:
>>>> Rodger __To use specifics: Whether it be in the African wild sitting
>> 3-4
>>>> meters from a leopard for about 30 minutes _or_ dissolving into playing
>>>> music with friends, or sitting in meetings with high level consultants
>>>> and/or corporate CEOs -- at the heart of my awareness of the experience
>>>> is an absence of self-image/ role.
>>>>
>>>> If my close encounter with death was compared to Dwights drowning
>>>> experience, then it was my masks of ego constructs/ self images which
>>>> were the sweater for me. Dwights description of what it felt like to be
>>>> without the sweater is the same as how I felt free of all my masks.
>>>>
>>>> But I did not feel enraged, as Dwight did, when his sweater began to
>>>> refit itself upon him, robbing him of dying. Although I felt absolutely
>>>> fine if it was my time to go-- I became aware that there was something
>>>> more for me to do in human form. And making the decision to return to
>>>> fulfill that something is a vivid memory of choice.
>>>>
>>>> That decision included clarity about how living in THIS world needs
>>>> masks, self images, and how I would need to take them on again. They
>> are
>>>> an essential tool designed for functioning in this world.
>>>> Yet the return of masks carried very little weight --possibly because I
>>>> could no longer confuse a mask for a Being, or, thought process of
>>>> self-image for conscious awareness. _R
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 08:36:03 EDT
>>>> From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
>>>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>>> .
>>>> Or, is it a group awareness - and thus the dialogue serves to build our
>>>> joint sense of awareness of what the organisation "is"?
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> info:
>>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>>
>>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more
then map the best
>>> route! http://local.live.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.m
> icrosoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=hm
> tagline
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com Sat Sep 30 15:13:29 2006
From: Rodger.Hyodo at dialogos.com (Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:09:02 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <20061001100003.AC219235A0@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
Message-ID: <OFF0B34B2F.97CAAFE3-ON852571F9.003C1616-852571F9.0048A569@dialogos.com>
Rodger __1962 has one of the best examples of how a glitch in collective
thought creates mass panic, especially when led down the path by media.
In 1962, the height of Cold War, the American navy blockaded Soviet ships
enroute to Cuba -- President Kennedy accused the Soviets of being deceptive
about their purpose for the ships -- that the Soviets were actually
delivering nuclear missile launchers to Cuba.
Part of the problem was that it was unconfirmed whether or not Cuba had
nuclear missiles -for launching- in 1962.
But if you were alive then, you probably remember the worldwide terror.
Everyone KNEW the Super Powers would not yield to one another.
The confrontation would not just be WWIII, it would be a nuclear overkill
-- within hours the annihilation of most everyone, and planet Earth.
With so much at stake you would think a brief dialogue might be called for
between President Kennedy, President Khrushchev, and Fidel Castro -- but
dialogue in the ways its now practiced, did not exist then.
It turned out that the WHOLE WORLD was wrong. The Soviets stood down in the
last second of extended deadline.
Many years afterward, Pres Khrushchev actually sat at a table with McNamara
and Castro along with the relevant admins, and looked at what brought them
to the brink of destroying the planet. Re: how much -reality- was caused by
human error -- misinterpretations of circmstance and information.
Those talks were an idea from 3 people, one of them a good friend. It was
these same 3 who facilitated the talks and confirmed that there were
indeed, nuclear missiles in Cuba at the time of the blockade. -published
in: Cuba on the Brink, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
My point is, even some of the worlds most complex problems between sworn
enemies, can include people with vision and people at highest levels of
responsibility who are eager to find solutions-- gain understanding of
thought.
Like Zoes list of wrongs, I can site a long list of amazing dialogues
taking place. People actually doing something other than collecting lists
of wrongs. But such a list wont satisfy that demand for a microwave 12
course fix-it meal.
Anyway, I actually really enjoy cooking my meals slowly on a huge, old
fashioned Garland._R
.
.
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:43:24 +0100
From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
.
I thought I would use Zoe's list here, But in commenting on them I
notice that most of them are symptoms of just one thing the way the
human thought system functions.
.
.
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 15:21:03 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:17:09 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: ?
References: <20060929.235108.1668.3.franis_franis@juno.com>
Message-ID: <004401c6e493$5e2f4740$016d153f@DL01>
Franis, the Norton Internet Security junk on my machine saves some emails in
a "local folder" of OUTLOOK EXPRESS named Norton AntiSpam Folder which
Norton formed on its own. For whatever reason the system deems some emails
to be either spam threats or maybe virus threats and they are isolated.
I must check it regularly for emails that do not arrive in the usual
ay. -- Don L
ps: I like your name, do not find it weird. -- dbl
From: "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:51 AM
> Somehow I'm missing the getting of quite a few posts that others are
> quoting... What's happening? I checked my sub and posts are bouncing for
> some mystery reason. Hope I'm not being attacked by the bot.
> -Franis
> >
From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 15:33:50 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:29:18 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] ChatGroups vs Bohm Dialogue
References: <BAY107-F3D8A952C0C56BCFCB706DA8190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <004f01c6e495$1313c2c0$016d153f@DL01>
What's the difference between Chat Groups and Bohm Dialogue? -- dbl
From: "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] what water(supply) and dialog(demand) have in
common
> Dear Chatgroupers (especially for the old man of denial, Donf):
>
> India Digs Deeper,
>
> but Wells Are Drying Up
>
> India is using groundwater so rapidly that some areas have already run
> out. In a village in Rajasthan, the state sends in water by train.
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 15:36:00 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:31:46 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <C143DC7D.33B2%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C143EB00.33CA%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
A better analogy ? music is a language. One needs to know how to speak, not
repeat someone else?s words, the language of music in order engage in
musical dialog ? ensemble improvisation. One must be able to utilize as
well as go beyond Mechanical & Reactive-Reflective Thought (which Bohm
considers has a place in creative thinking). And to do this, a certain
amount of solo practice is needed. A balance needs to be sought. I haven?t
begun yet to think about how the language of music affects the conception of
musical thought.
Any ideas on that, anyone? Kris has his own language. Maybe he can share
his insights on the topic. k
On 9/30/06 8:34 AM, "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Solo improvisation is the equivalent of solo reading and study so you have
> some background from which to create and continue dialog. It?s prerequisite
> to the making of meaning. k
>
>
> On 9/30/06 5:38 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue?
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> What are your impressions about this music ?
>>>
>>> http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
>>> (free subscription to listen the album entirely)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 15:37:39 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:33:16 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
References: <488.d147d83.324f9529@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006701c6e495$9b7d0680$016d153f@DL01>
Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue? -- Mark
What is group dialogue? -- Don L
From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue?
Hello,
What are your impressions about this music ?
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
(free subscription to listen the album entirely)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 15:41:53 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:37:42 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
References: <c0f.5f8f6c8.324f9cff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c6e496$32b04d00$016d153f@DL01>
Neither does anyone else. Does Bohm Dialogue mean being subjected to meaningless, chat-group nonsense? -- dbl
http://home1.gte.net/donlay
----- Original Message -----
From: MarkHarmer@aol.com
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
Hi Ki,
I have **no idea** what you mean!!
Dear Mark
"It" thinkgs
"Me"
Ki
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
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post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 15:42:13 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:38:00 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <OFF0B34B2F.97CAAFE3-ON852571F9.003C1616-852571F9.0048A569@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <C143EC76.33CE%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Good Morning, Rodger -
You have most effectively explained the first part of your thesis, but the
phrase beginning ?...especially? doesn?t seem to have supporting evidence.
Would you elaborate on that? thanks, k
On 9/30/06 9:13 AM, "Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com" <Rodger.Hyodo@dialogos.com>
wrote:
> Rodger __1962 has one of the best examples of how a glitch in collective
> thought creates mass panic, especially when led down the path by media.
>
> In 1962, the height of Cold War, the American navy blockaded Soviet ships
> enroute to Cuba -- President Kennedy accused the Soviets of being deceptive
> about their purpose for the ships -- that the Soviets were actually delivering
> nuclear missile launchers to Cuba.
>
> Part of the problem was that it was unconfirmed whether or not Cuba had
> nuclear missiles -for launching- in 1962.
>
> But if you were alive then, you probably remember the worldwide terror.
> Everyone KNEW the Super Powers would not yield to one another.
> The confrontation would not just be WWIII, it would be a nuclear overkill --
> within hours the annihilation of most everyone, and planet Earth.
>
> With so much at stake you would think a brief dialogue might be called for
> between President Kennedy, President Khrushchev, and Fidel Castro -- but
> dialogue in the ways its now practiced, did not exist then.
>
> It turned out that the WHOLE WORLD was wrong. The Soviets stood down in the
> last second of extended deadline.
>
> Many years afterward, Pres Khrushchev actually sat at a table with McNamara
> and Castro along with the relevant admins, and looked at what brought them to
> the brink of destroying the planet. Re: how much -reality- was caused by human
> error -- misinterpretations of circmstance and information.
>
> Those talks were an idea from 3 people, one of them a good friend. It was
> these same 3 who facilitated the talks and confirmed that there were indeed,
> nuclear missiles in Cuba at the time of the blockade. -published in: Cuba on
> the Brink, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
>
> My point is, even some of the worlds most complex problems between sworn
> enemies, can include people with vision and people at highest levels of
> responsibility who are eager to find solutions-- gain understanding of
> thought.
>
> Like Zoes list of wrongs, I can site a long list of amazing dialogues taking
> place. People actually doing something other than collecting lists of wrongs.
> But such a list wont satisfy that demand for a microwave 12 course fix-it
> meal.
>
> Anyway, I actually really enjoy cooking my meals slowly on a huge, old
> fashioned Garland._R
> .
> .
> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:43:24 +0100
> From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> .
> I thought I would use Zoe's list here, But in commenting on them I
> notice that most of them are symptoms of just one thing the way the
> human thought system functions.
> .
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From edgelink at no-log.org Sat Sep 30 15:45:34 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:46:16 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] [Chat_Group]"Risky"
In-Reply-To: <OFF0B34B2F.97CAAFE3-ON852571F9.003C1616-852571F9.0048A569@dialogos.co
m>
References: <20061001100003.AC219235A0@web.internal.van-den-heuvel.org>
<OFF0B34B2F.97CAAFE3-ON852571F9.003C1616-852571F9.0048A569@dialogos.com>
Message-ID: <4299.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159623934.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
"Yes, I did actually see the plane impact the building."
http://www.criticalthrash.com/terror/crashthumbnails.html
There was no plane into the Pentagon, my friends ! (the content of this
assertion is considered as probable)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rodger __1962 has one of the best examples of how a glitch in collective
> thought creates mass panic, especially when led down the path by media.
>
> In 1962, the height of Cold War, the American navy blockaded Soviet ships
> enroute to Cuba -- President Kennedy accused the Soviets of being
> deceptive
> about their purpose for the ships -- that the Soviets were actually
> delivering nuclear missile launchers to Cuba.
>
> Part of the problem was that it was unconfirmed whether or not Cuba had
> nuclear missiles -for launching- in 1962.
>
> But if you were alive then, you probably remember the worldwide terror.
> Everyone KNEW the Super Powers would not yield to one another.
> The confrontation would not just be WWIII, it would be a nuclear overkill
> -- within hours the annihilation of most everyone, and planet Earth.
>
> With so much at stake you would think a brief dialogue might be called for
> between President Kennedy, President Khrushchev, and Fidel Castro -- but
> dialogue in the ways its now practiced, did not exist then.
>
> It turned out that the WHOLE WORLD was wrong. The Soviets stood down in
> the
> last second of extended deadline.
>
> Many years afterward, Pres Khrushchev actually sat at a table with
> McNamara
> and Castro along with the relevant admins, and looked at what brought them
> to the brink of destroying the planet. Re: how much -reality- was caused
> by
> human error -- misinterpretations of circmstance and information.
>
> Those talks were an idea from 3 people, one of them a good friend. It was
> these same 3 who facilitated the talks and confirmed that there were
> indeed, nuclear missiles in Cuba at the time of the blockade. -published
> in: Cuba on the Brink, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
>
> My point is, even some of the worlds most complex problems between sworn
> enemies, can include people with vision and people at highest levels of
> responsibility who are eager to find solutions-- gain understanding of
> thought.
>
> Like Zoes list of wrongs, I can site a long list of amazing dialogues
> taking place. People actually doing something other than collecting lists
> of wrongs. But such a list wont satisfy that demand for a microwave 12
> course fix-it meal.
>
> Anyway, I actually really enjoy cooking my meals slowly on a huge, old
> fashioned Garland._R
> .
> .
> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:43:24 +0100
> From: Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
> .
> I thought I would use Zoe's list here, But in commenting on them I
> notice that most of them are symptoms of just one thing the way the
> human thought system functions.
> .
> ._______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 15:50:46 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:46:27 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
References: <C143DC7D.33B2%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009c01c6e497$70855a20$016d153f@DL01>
Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptionsIt's prerequisite to the making of meaning. k
Interesting idea -- "making of meaning". Is meaning made or experienced? When an artist "makes meaning", is she actually participating in ONTIC MEANING and interpreting that for others?
Does a musician "make meaning" with music? Does a graphic artist? A dance artist, etc?
When the musician makes meaning, does she participate and interpret the meaning of the whole for homo-sap -- a partial meaning for a part of the whole? -- Don L
http://home1.gte.net/donlay
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Solo improvisation is the equivalent of solo reading and study so you have some background from which to create and continue dialog. It's prerequisite to the making of meaning. k
On 9/30/06 5:38 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue?
Hello,
What are your impressions about this music ?
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
(free subscription to listen the album entirely)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 15:54:51 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:50:39 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Kirsten/Peter
References: <BAY107-F25D70119F796801ED31A41A8190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <009f01c6e498$0306ff70$016d153f@DL01>
"i" is ('simply') a function, an operation of the system (TAS , Thought As a
System), rather than the other way around. -- ???
So what! What? -- dbl
> Dear Mark ~
>
> "i" is ('simply') a function, an operation of the system (TAS , Thought As
> a System), rather than the other way around.
>
>
>
>
>
> PS: good to see that somebody is actually asking questions around here
> when somethinkg is ... fishiii
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Love & Scubadiving, Kbot
>
> --------------------------
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>
>
>>Hi Ki,
>>
>>I have **no idea** what you mean!!
>>
>>
>>Dear Mark
>>
>>"It" thinkgs
>>
>>"Me"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Ki
>>
>>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>info:
>>www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>>post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>>dialogue facilitator:
>>facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>>Administrator of the mailing list:
>>admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get today's hot entertainment gossip
> http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 16:00:17 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:56:05 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <009c01c6e497$70855a20$016d153f@DL01>
Message-ID: <C143F0B1.33D5%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
As I see it now, a person participating in artistic creation makes personal
meaning/sense of life experiences and encodes them in an art form. Ontic ?
relating to real existence ? what is ?real?? I?m not sure what you mean by
?that?, either. Is there a better definition that this one provided by my
dictionary? At any rate, the ramifications of ?interpreting that/anything
for others is not something I want to do. I prefer to ?share? my
meaning/interpretation with others. What they do with it depends on them.
?Share?, again for me, has less of a coercive aspect to it. k
On 9/30/06 9:50 AM, "Don Lay" <donlay@gte.net> wrote:
> It?s prerequisite to the making of meaning. k
> Interesting idea -- "making of meaning". Is meaning made or experienced?
> When an artist "makes meaning", is she actually participating in ONTIC MEANING
> and interpreting that for others?
>
> Does a musician "make meaning" with music? Does a graphic artist? A dance
> artist, etc?
>
> When the musician makes meaning, does she participate and interpret the
> meaning of the whole for homo-sap -- a partial meaning for a part of the
> whole? -- Don L
>
>
> http://home1.gte.net/donlay
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Kathryn Arizmendi <mailto:tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>>
>> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 8:34 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
>>
>>
>> Solo improvisation is the equivalent of solo reading and study so you have
>> some background from which to create and continue dialog. It?s prerequisite
>> to the making of meaning. k
>>
>>
>> On 9/30/06 5:38 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue?
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> What are your impressions about this music ?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
>>>> (free subscription to listen the album entirely)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 16:01:21 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 16:56:50 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
Interesting idea! And to me it agrees with my earlier thought: surely solo
improvisation, recorded (presumably) on ones own, is not dialogue, it's
monologue. Unless one's perhaps exploring the dialogue between different elements
of one's personality perhaps... - hence why I said group dialogue as opposed
to dialogue.
When the musician makes meaning, does she participate and interpret the
meaning of the whole for homo-sap -- a partial meaning for a part of the whole?
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From edgelink at no-log.org Sat Sep 30 16:02:40 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:03:20 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] [Chat_Group]to Don Lay
In-Reply-To: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
References: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4451.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159624960.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
http://home1.gte.net/donlay/step1.htm
Have you really understand Krishnamurti,... and so Bohm ?
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 16:12:34 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:08:20 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-F227184000B825201595F38A8190@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C143F392.33DA%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Kris - thinking in this kind of image doesn't work for me because it's open
to too many different interpretations. The image elicits too many diverse
personal responses, based largely on memories. How, without adding language
that contains words with clear definitions, do you see this as communicating
your thought accurately? Or was it your purpose to be nebulous? If so,
why?
P.S. Until you give me a different choice of name, I will use Kris.
All the best, k
On 9/30/06 6:05 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> ok: http://www.tomveatch.com/else/tv/SergeyGutkinFH.jpg
>
>> ok:
>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/Abalone_board.jpg
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ok:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000TZ4WA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kbot
>>> --------------------------
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Be seen and heard with Windows Live Messenger and Microsoft LifeCams
>>>
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.
>> microsoft.com/hardware/digitalcommunication/default.mspx?locale=en-us&source=
>> hmtagline
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Try the new Live Search today!
>
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTA>
G
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 16:14:10 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:09:56 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] [Chat_Group]to Don Lay
In-Reply-To: <4451.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159624960.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <C143F3F2.33DB%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Krishnamurti is not the only one who shares Bohm's precepts. k
On 9/30/06 10:02 AM, "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org> wrote:
> http://home1.gte.net/donlay/step1.htm
>
> Have you really understand Krishnamurti,... and so Bohm ?
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 16:15:43 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:11:29 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C143F44F.33DC%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Hey Mark ? I never thought of dialoging with different elements of my
personality, but why not?! k
On 9/30/06 10:01 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Interesting idea! And to me it agrees with my earlier thought: surely solo
> improvisation, recorded (presumably) on ones own, is not dialogue, it's
> monologue. Unless one's perhaps exploring the dialogue between different
> elements of one's personality perhaps... - hence why I said group dialogue as
> opposed to dialogue.
>> When the musician makes meaning, does she participate and interpret the
>> meaning of the whole for homo-sap -- a partial meaning for a part of the
>> whole?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 16:20:31 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:15:58 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <515.70e27050.324fd72f@aol.com>
Absolutely! I think Assagioli did some work on "subpersonalities" - so I'd
love to try an experiment with a dialogue between the "critial Mark", the
"parental Mark", the magical Mark" etc - and it's also quite a helpful concept to
allow me to think about how I might react to something from these various
elements of me...I think Bohm in "On Dialogue" talks about it being possible to
have a dialogue with oneself, and this is the closest I can get to
understanding how that might be possible.
Hey Mark ? I never thought of dialoging with different elements of my
personality, but why not?! k
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Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe
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From tangykatt at earthlink.net Sat Sep 30 16:23:11 2006
From: tangykatt at earthlink.net (Kathryn Arizmendi)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:18:42 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <515.70e27050.324fd72f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C143F60F.33DE%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
I?ve enjoyed having morning coffee with everyone. I?m signing off now, to
go work on making shapes out of musical notes. Hope the day is beautiful
where you are. k
On 9/30/06 10:20 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Absolutely! I think Assagioli did some work on "subpersonalities" - so I'd
> love to try an experiment with a dialogue between the "critial Mark", the
> "parental Mark", the magical Mark" etc - and it's also quite a helpful concept
> to allow me to think about how I might react to something from these various
> elements of me...I think Bohm in "On Dialogue" talks about it being possible
> to have a dialogue with oneself, and this is the closest I can get to
> understanding how that might be possible.
>> Hey Mark ? I never thought of dialoging with different elements of my
>> personality, but why not?! k
>
> **********************
>
> Do you love the violin? Browse our fabulous fiddles and incredible Incredibows
> in our online music shop. Everything is sent immediately on payment, there's
> free postage to the UK and EU, and a 60-day no-quibble guarantee for your
> complete piece of mind. Visit http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk
> <http://www.danceofdelight.co.uk/> and you'll find out why our customers love
> us!
>
> Do you love Celtic music? Then you can't miss Slainte, the seven-piece celtic
> band from Gloucestershire, with a passionate following in the UK, Ireland,
> Italy and the USA. Free studio videos and mp3 downloads. Meet us all at
> http://www.celtmusic.co.uk <http://www.celtmusic.co.uk/>
>
> Your children deserve the best. If you live in Gloucestershire, then you owe
> it to yourself to come to a MusicGarden session. You and your children will
> get to play real musical instruments and lay the foundation for a lifetime of
> music. Seriously Fun Music Sessions - more at http://www.musicgarden.co.uk
> <http://www.musicgarden.co.uk/>
>
> NEW!
>
> What can the ebb and flow of music teach us about organisations? About
> leadership and strategy? About sustainability and creativity? For
> organisational consulting and group work with a sound difference, see
> http://www.yourmusic.biz <http://www.yourmusic.biz/> - building on 24 years
> of successful organisational learning!
>
> COMING SOON
>
> Exciting musical instruments from around the world - fairly-traded and
> fairly-priced in a way that helps communities sustain and develop. Fabulous
> frogs, delightful djembes and more! Available August 2006 at
> http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk <http://www.fairtrademusicshop.co.uk/>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 16:25:29 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:20:59 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <492.9acfd98.324fd859@aol.com>
...and I'm about to have my evening meal, a bit early because we're doing a
gig tonight. Funny how in this email space we can meet almost as disembodied
beings, distance no object...
I?ve enjoyed having morning coffee with everyone. I?m signing off now, to
go work on making shapes out of musical notes. Hope the day is beautiful
where you are. k
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From edgelink at no-log.org Sat Sep 30 16:33:13 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:33:52 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] [Chat_Group]to Don Lay
In-Reply-To: <C143F3F2.33DB%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
References: <4451.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159624960.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<C143F3F2.33DB%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4889.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159626793.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Hum, do you want to say that Bohm is not the only one who shares
Krishanmuti's insights ?
> Krishnamurti is not the only one who shares Bohm's precepts. k
>
>
> On 9/30/06 10:02 AM, "edgelink@no-log.org" <edgelink@no-log.org> wrote:
>
>> http://home1.gte.net/donlay/step1.htm
>>
>> Have you really understand Krishnamurti,... and so Bohm ?
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:00:14 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Oct 1 17:55:40 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <001801c6e48d$cff3f070$016d153f@DL01>
References: <BAY107-F32BF485CCBF26E76D6FDE1A81B0@phx.gbl>
<6B21E051-F966-417D-9C9C-9C91BC84B864@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
<001801c6e48d$cff3f070$016d153f@DL01>
Message-ID: <08B55550-9AEB-4E89-A705-4CEBBBE890A2@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
If you really want to be serious, the "line of thought" is pure TAS
and need I remind you that Bohm describes this as the active response
of memory which can only have limited relevance in the present?
How do you see that developing the connections between the pre-
socratic Greeks, through to Bohm will help us to live more coherent
lives and to address the rampant fragmentation in the world? Would
this be more or less valuable than studying, say, the old testament,
traditions or the Indo-Arian scripts which pre-date the Greek and
Hebrew and still have a lot of relevance at least in some parts of
the world. I mean scholars have been doing this for centuries, but,
if you think that we should be doing it too, where do you see the value?
don
On 30 Sep 2006, at 13:39, Don Lay wrote:
> Charles Darwin? Why not go back a little further to Bishop
> Berkeley? -- Don F
>
> Why not go back a lot further, as does Bohm, to Parmenides,
> Heraclitus?
>
> Maybe the answer is that it is so much easier to talk trash than to
> seriously consider that line of thought from Parmenides/Heraclitus
> through Berkeley to Bohm, to modern physics theory. It is much
> easier to 'chat', to ignore dialogue, to ignore _On Dialogue_ and
> its relationship to that _line of thought which Bohm suggests may
> be 'the way out' of modern civilizations delemma. -- Don L
>
>
> From: "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:41 AM
>>
>> Charles Darwin? Why not go back a little further to Bishop Berkeley?
>>
>> Do you not know that Evolutionary theory has come a very long way
>> beyond this kind of idea? About time you get hold of some more up-
>> to- date literature.
>>
>> These days about the only person I can think of who would take
>> this notion literally is Richard Dawkina, the high priest of
>> materialism. Who actually earns his salary by defending this sort
>> of point of view.
>>
>> Come on K, you can do better than that.
>>
>> don
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Nowmybrainisdoingitdonf ~
>>>
>>> Experience shows the problem of the mind cannot be solved by
>>> attacking the citadel itself -the mind is a function of body.
>>>
>>> (Charles Darwin, The "N" Notebook)
>>>
>>> ... and yet, a few hundred years later, critters, suckling on
>>> bohmian tits, (still) drool...
>>>
>>> ...togetit..
>>>
>>> ...aaaaaaaall....
>>>
>>>
>>> oooooowell
>>>
>>>
>>> Love & Noevolution, Kirsten
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:09:28 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:04:52 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: ?
In-Reply-To: <004401c6e493$5e2f4740$016d153f@DL01>
References: <20060929.235108.1668.3.franis_franis@juno.com>
<004401c6e493$5e2f4740$016d153f@DL01>
Message-ID: <B21E8379-B9FA-46C2-B7EA-FB998212FDB1@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
You may be amused to hear that I checked my similar spam file this
morning before scrubbing it and found to recent e-mails from Kirsten
in there. I didn't tell the software to do that, but I guess it must
have had a good reason to. Intelligent systems? Mechanical
intelligence? Who knows?
don
On 30 Sep 2006, at 14:21, Don Lay wrote:
> Franis, the Norton Internet Security junk on my machine saves some
> emails in a "local folder" of OUTLOOK EXPRESS named Norton AntiSpam
> Folder which Norton formed on its own. For whatever reason the
> system deems some emails to be either spam threats or maybe virus
> threats and they are isolated.
>
> I must check it regularly for emails that do not arrive in the
> usual ay. -- Don L
>
> ps: I like your name, do not find it weird. -- dbl
>
> From: "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:51 AM
>
>> Somehow I'm missing the getting of quite a few posts that others are
>> quoting... What's happening? I checked my sub and posts are
>> bouncing for
>> some mystery reason. Hope I'm not being attacked by the bot.
>> -Franis
>> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Sat Sep 30 17:18:23 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:13:49 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark
In-Reply-To: <C143DDC9.33B5%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C143E6DF.74A2%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
I'm not really a musician (but a singer), but I love reading about this.
I've always been interested in the connection between poetry and music as
two forms of the same sort of expression. I used to write songs, exploring
this. Haven't in a long time, though.
Lynne
On 9/30/06 6:39 AM, "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'm glad it didn't get into Mark's private email box, then. Do you want me
> to send you copies of any future exchanges on Dalcroze? If so, perhaps you
> should send me your email since others may not want to read it. k
>
>
> On 9/30/06 2:39 AM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm really happy to read this - thanks for posting. - Franis
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:02:17 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
>> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>>> My apologies if this should have been sent to Mark?s private email
>>> address.
>>> I tried, and it was returned, so I had no alternative.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Mark -
>>> I took this off the group board because I thought only you and I
>>> might be
>>> interested. For work in Eurhythmics, go to the information at
>>> www.fier.com
>>> International Federation of Eurhythmics Teachers. It?s an
>>> international
>>> listing of what?s available. For more browsing, Google versions of
>>> Dalcroze. I find that if one combines Bohm principles as outlined
>>> in
>>> On Creativity, with Dalcroze Eurhythmics, one has a good starting
>>> place.
>>> I?m fortunate
>>> to have the memory of the classes with Frances, the teacher, and
>>> remember
>>> what she emphasized from Bohm. You?ll find that Dalcroze has pretty
>>> much
>>> been restricted to children these days, but it shouldn?t have been,
>>> and
>>> didn?t begin that way. But the focus on children will be good for
>>> your
>>> interests. Then, just adjust it to adults. Dalcroze didn?t ?teach
>>> down? to
>>> children.
>>> He insisted they be treated as young artists. Actually, I have the
>>> complete
>>> original
>>> methodology for adults, and its adaptation by Dalcroze for children.
>>> You
>>> most likely
>>> won?t be introduced to that. Feel
>>> free to ask, and I?ll fill you in as best I can. The history of
>>> Dalcroze,
>>> its connections with theater, dance, art, etc, etc, are unending,
>>> and
>>> essential to its
>>> understanding. It is
>>> rooted in the idea that the rhythm of change, from macrocosm to
>>> microcosm,
>>> and back again,
>>> is the source of everything.
>>>
>>> I introduced principles of Dialog in today?s session of
>>> improvisation. Boy,
>>> did it work. The interchange between my teacher and me became a kind
>>> of
>>> dialog in which I tried
>>> to show him what was going on in my mind. By exploring processes,
>>> structures, patterns, relationships, and all
>>> the things ?On Creativity? talks about, one can definitely study
>>> improvisation. I delayed responding to this part of your email
>>> because I
>>> was working very hard to prepare for today. The discovery of
>>> patterns,
>>> structure,
>>> where and how they relate, distilling axioms, and putting a data
>>> base on
>>> automatic so you can focus
>>> on finding new connections and meaning is a slow process. But
>>> challenging,
>>> therefore very rewarding. My teacher is hanging
>>> in there, even though he says the patterns and relationships are
>>> infinite.
>>>
>>> Let me know how it goes. Maybe we can take the discussion off the
>>> board
>>> somehow.
>>>
>>> Best, k
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:18:43 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:14:12 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <009c01c6e497$70855a20$016d153f@DL01>
References: <C143DC7D.33B2%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
<009c01c6e497$70855a20$016d153f@DL01>
Message-ID: <7A5A8E0F-6C72-473B-BB30-DA085612A313@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
What is ontic meaning? Examples please\
don
On 30 Sep 2006, at 14:50, Don Lay wrote:
> It?s prerequisite to the making of meaning. k
> Interesting idea -- "making of meaning". Is meaning made or
> experienced? When an artist "makes meaning", is she actually
> participating in ONTIC MEANING and interpreting that for others?
>
> Does a musician "make meaning" with music? Does a graphic artist?
> A dance artist, etc?
>
> When the musician makes meaning, does she participate and interpret
> the meaning of the whole for homo-sap -- a partial meaning for a
> part of the whole? -- Don L
>
>
> http://home1.gte.net/donlay
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kathryn Arizmendi
> To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
>
> Solo improvisation is the equivalent of solo reading and study so
> you have some background from which to create and continue dialog.
> It?s prerequisite to the making of meaning. k
>
>
> On 9/30/06 5:38 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue?
> Hello,
>
> What are your impressions about this music ?
>
> http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
> (free subscription to listen the album entirely)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 17:21:49 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:17:15 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark
Message-ID: <be6.4718966.324fe58d@aol.com>
I'm really interested in what you might have written if you're happy to
share it. I love the idea of music / poetry etc - anything that's a sequence in
time, as that "does it" for me in a way that still images really don't.
I'm not really a musician (but a singer), but I love reading about this.
I've always been interested in the connection between poetry and music as
two forms of the same sort of expression. I used to write songs, exploring
this. Haven't in a long time, though.
Lynne
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Sat Sep 30 17:31:16 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:26:41 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <515.70e27050.324fd72f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C143E9E4.74A4%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
There is almost no end to the ?parts? of the ?personality? one can dialogue
with. I?ve been exploring dreams (as in sleeping) for about 18 years in a
group. The main premise is that every element in a dream represents some
part of yourself. One of the ways we explore what these parts are like is
to dialogue with them. It can be fascinating, and often very revealing.
Lynne
On 9/30/06 8:20 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
> Absolutely! I think Assagioli did some work on "subpersonalities" - so I'd
> love to try an experiment with a dialogue between the "critial Mark", the
> "parental Mark", the magical Mark" etc - and it's also quite a helpful concept
> to allow me to think about how I might react to something from these various
> elements of me...I think Bohm in "On Dialogue" talks about it being possible
> to have a dialogue with oneself, and this is the closest I can get to
> understanding how that might be possible.
>> Hey Mark ? I never thought of dialoging with different elements of my
>> personality, but why not?! k
>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:35:41 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:31:08 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
References: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0DF80179-B4A3-4B38-AC46-3AB0A6E5DD6D@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
On 30 Sep 2006, at 15:01, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
> Interesting idea! And to me it agrees with my earlier thought:
> surely solo improvisation, recorded (presumably) on ones own, is
> not dialogue, it's monologue. Unless one's perhaps exploring the
> dialogue between different elements of one's personality perhaps...
> - hence why I said group dialogue as opposed to dialogue.
I happen to think that is possible to think dialogically. Such as, if
ask myself a question and then try to find an answer. I do this a
lot. Most people use the phrase "group dialogue" to differentiate it
from the more general meaning which has to do either with a
conversation between two individuals or two groups.
This definition only includes dialogue between groups:
? a discussion between two or more people or groups, esp. one
directed toward exploration of a particular subject or resolution of
a problem : the U.S. would enter into a direct dialogue with Vietnam
| interfaith dialogue.
> When the musician makes meaning, does she participate and interpret
> the meaning of the whole for homo-sap -- a partial meaning for a
> part of the whole?
I kind of like Bohm's approach which would be that she unfolds the
meaning. Or to maybe put it more didactically, she unfolds or
displays an aspect of the structure that is implicit as potential in
the music being performed. I mean, even if the performance is pure
improvisation there is some prior form implicit in the musicians own
intent even though she may not be conscious of what that is until
she hears it herself. Whether this would mean "the meaning for the
whole" or something more like a partial meaning, I don't know. But
its an interesting question.
don
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From lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com Sat Sep 30 17:37:02 2006
From: lynne at lifedirectionscoach.com (Lynne Tolk)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:32:27 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] attachments
In-Reply-To: <C1434630.339E%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <C143EB3E.74A7%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
I?ve just been exploring my email program. I find that replying to you, my
program automatically formats the text as HTML (which is my normal setting),
but if I reply to Franis, the HTML formatting comes off (since hers do not
use the HTML). This may be the problem. I never really noticed or thought
about it before.
Lynne
On 9/29/06 7:52 PM, "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Please note ? I have sent no attachments in my posts. If you receive email
> from me with an attachment ? DON?T open it. I didn?t send it. k
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
-- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
208 376-1336
www.lifedirectionscoach.com
(visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
"Love is never earned . . .
It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:40:13 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:35:36 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] [Chat_Group]to Don Lay
In-Reply-To: <4451.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159624960.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
<4451.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159624960.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <4B66AE98-8385-4ECC-956F-EA822F397FEB@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
On 30 Sep 2006, at 15:02, edgelink@no-log.org wrote:
> http://home1.gte.net/donlay/step1.htm
>
> Have you really understand Krishnamurti,... and so Bohm ?
> _______________________________________________
I don't know if you are asking this relevant to DonL's web page or as
a more general question.
It sounds to me as though you are suggesting that to understand Bohm,
it would be necessary to first understand Krishnamurti. Is that correct?
don
From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 17:46:36 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:42:04 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <46b.7bd00c9.324feb5c@aol.com>
Lynne, spooky you should mention this but I had one tiny element of a dream
which I then realised could have been telling me something about how we
extrapolate our view of quality, and led to a rich (for me) piece of writing on
"quality" and how in commerce we privilege the quantifiable and measurable and
"quick" over the qualitative - the contextual, relational, unmeasurable aspect
of how we see the world. Out of this I then had thoughts about the way we
process data as opposed to the way machines process data - and out of this,
some thoughts on how easily we as non-machines arrive at assumptions based on
the first data that we become aware of - and finally, how our "data" gets into
the group in the form of stories and discussion and becomes a "social memory"
which can (if we allow it to) influence our way of seeing the world.
All that from a brief bit of a dream. That was my first experience of using
a dream in this way - I must eat more cheese at nights!
Mark
There is almost no end to the ?parts? of the ?personality? one can
dialogue with. I?ve been exploring dreams (as in sleeping) for about 18 years in a
group. The main premise is that every element in a dream represents some
part of yourself. One of the ways we explore what these parts are like is to
dialogue with them. It can be fascinating, and often very revealing.
Lynne
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 17:50:49 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Oct 1 18:46:15 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] attachments
In-Reply-To: <C143EB3E.74A7%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
References: <C143EB3E.74A7%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <3D6852E8-D88C-4674-8D79-5EFD743A8B59@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
If your set-up is anything like mine, it would be set to plain-text
by default. This shouldn't - at least it doesn't for me - stop me
from receiving or sending e-mails using rich text format, different
fonts or colours. HTML is something different, relevant more to web
sites. But I've never messed with a lot of this so I am no expert. I
would warn, that it might be a problem if you reply to Franis with
one set-up and to everyone else with another since all our posts go
to everybody.
don
On 30 Sep 2006, at 16:37, Lynne Tolk wrote:
> I?ve just been exploring my email program. I find that replying to
> you, my program automatically formats the text as HTML (which is my
> normal setting), but if I reply to Franis, the HTML formatting
> comes off (since hers do not use the HTML). This may be the
> problem. I never really noticed or thought about it before.
>
> Lynne
>
> On 9/29/06 7:52 PM, "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Please note ? I have sent no attachments in my posts. If you
>> receive email from me with an attachment ? DON?T open it. I
>> didn?t send it. k
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
> 208 376-1336
> www.lifedirectionscoach.com
> (visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
>
>
> "Love is never earned . . .
> It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 18:38:35 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 19:34:18 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Subject: ?
References: <20060929.235108.1668.3.franis_franis@juno.com>
<004401c6e493$5e2f4740$016d153f@DL01>
<B21E8379-B9FA-46C2-B7EA-FB998212FDB1@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <009601c6e4ae$e6632ee0$4317153f@DL01>
Very interesting Don. I'm getting two or three daily lately, today (the
thirtieth) so far I have one each from Mark and Kathryn. -- dbl
From: "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
> You may be amused to hear that I checked my similar spam file this
> morning before scrubbing it and found to recent e-mails from Kirsten in
> there. I didn't tell the software to do that, but I guess it must have
> had a good reason to. Intelligent systems? Mechanical intelligence? Who
> knows?
>
> don
>
> On 30 Sep 2006, at 14:21, Don Lay wrote:
>
>> Franis, the Norton Internet Security junk on my machine saves some
>> emails in a "local folder" of OUTLOOK EXPRESS named Norton AntiSpam
>> Folder which Norton formed on its own. For whatever reason the system
>> deems some emails to be either spam threats or maybe virus threats and
>> they are isolated.
>>
>> I must check it regularly for emails that do not arrive in the usual
>> y. -- Don L
>>
>> ps: I like your name, do not find it weird. -- dbl
>>
>> From: "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:51 AM
>>
>>> Somehow I'm missing the getting of quite a few posts that others are
>>> quoting... What's happening? I checked my sub and posts are bouncing
>>> for
>>> some mystery reason. Hope I'm not being attacked by the bot.
>>> -Franis
>>> >
From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 18:41:56 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 19:37:25 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] Especially for Mark
References: <C143E6DF.74A2%lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
Message-ID: <00a001c6e4af$5a28f080$4317153f@DL01>
love reading about this. -- Lynne
Me too, though I have very little musical talent.
Looking at music as a language thought, and thinking Korzybski that words
are pointers, some questions occurs:
What does music "point to"?
What does Jazz point to?
What does 'church music' point to?
The drum beat?
Don L
http://home1.gte.net/donlay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynne Tolk" <lynne@lifedirectionscoach.com>
I'm not really a musician (but a singer), but I love reading about this.
I've always been interested in the connection between poetry and music as
two forms of the same sort of expression. I used to write songs, exploring
this. Haven't in a long time, though.
Lynne
On 9/30/06 6:39 AM, "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'm glad it didn't get into Mark's private email box, then. Do you want
> me
> to send you copies of any future exchanges on Dalcroze? If so, perhaps
> you
> should send me your email since others may not want to read it. k
>
>
> On 9/30/06 2:39 AM, "Franis Engel" <franis_franis@juno.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm really happy to read this - thanks for posting. - Franis
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:02:17 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
>> <tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
>>> My apologies if this should have been sent to Mark?s private email
>>> address.
>>> I tried, and it was returned, so I had no alternative.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Mark -
>>> I took this off the group board because I thought only you and I
>>> might be
>>> interested. For work in Eurhythmics, go to the information at
>>> www.fier.com
>>> International Federation of Eurhythmics Teachers. It?s an
>>> international
>>> listing of what?s available. For more browsing, Google versions of
>>> Dalcroze. I find that if one combines Bohm principles as outlined
>>> in
>>> On Creativity, with Dalcroze Eurhythmics, one has a good starting
>>> place.
>>> I?m fortunate
>>> to have the memory of the classes with Frances, the teacher, and
>>> remember
>>> what she emphasized from Bohm. You?ll find that Dalcroze has pretty
>>> much
>>> been restricted to children these days, but it shouldn?t have been,
>>> and
>>> didn?t begin that way. But the focus on children will be good for
>>> your
>>> interests. Then, just adjust it to adults. Dalcroze didn?t ?teach
>>> down? to
>>> children.
>>> He insisted they be treated as young artists. Actually, I have the
>>> complete
>>> original
>>> methodology for adults, and its adaptation by Dalcroze for children.
>>> You
>>> most likely
>>> won?t be introduced to that. Feel
>>> free to ask, and I?ll fill you in as best I can. The history of
>>> Dalcroze,
>>> its connections with theater, dance, art, etc, etc, are unending,
>>> and
>>> essential to its
>>> understanding. It is
>>> rooted in the idea that the rhythm of change, from macrocosm to
>>> microcosm,
>>> and back again,
>>> is the source of everything.
>>>
>>> I introduced principles of Dialog in today?s session of
>>> improvisation. Boy,
>>> did it work. The interchange between my teacher and me became a kind
>>> of
>>> dialog in which I tried
>>> to show him what was going on in my mind. By exploring processes,
>>> structures, patterns, relationships, and all
>>> the things ?On Creativity? talks about, one can definitely study
>>> improvisation. I delayed responding to this part of your email
>>> because I
>>> was working very hard to prepare for today. The discovery of
>>> patterns,
>>> structure,
>>> where and how they relate, distilling axioms, and putting a data
>>> base on
>>> automatic so you can focus
>>> on finding new connections and meaning is a slow process. But
>>> challenging,
>>> therefore very rewarding. My teacher is hanging
>>> in there, even though he says the patterns and relationships are
>>> infinite.
>>>
>>> Let me know how it goes. Maybe we can take the discussion off the
>>> board
>>> somehow.
>>>
>>> Best, k
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 18:42:52 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Sun Oct 1 19:38:18 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <46b.7bd00c9.324feb5c@aol.com>
References: <46b.7bd00c9.324feb5c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <F612CA1C-C10B-48FF-83F6-EA4F1236B19E@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
So how many of you did it take to come up with all this?
I am especially intrigued with the notion of 'social memory'. At
first glance I tend to think of the cause of this working in the
opposite direction, but I will have to, I guess, dream on it tonight,
Actually, i have tried using cheese for this purpose a number of
times and sometimes it even works. I haven't kept track as which
cheese works best though.
don
On 30 Sep 2006, at 16:46, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
> Lynne, spooky you should mention this but I had one tiny element of
> a dream which I then realised could have been telling me something
> about how we extrapolate our view of quality, and led to a rich
> (for me) piece of writing on "quality" and how in commerce we
> privilege the quantifiable and measurable and "quick" over the
> qualitative - the contextual, relational, unmeasurable aspect of
> how we see the world. Out of this I then had thoughts about the way
> we process data as opposed to the way machines process data - and
> out of this, some thoughts on how easily we as non-machines arrive
> at assumptions based on the first data that we become aware of -
> and finally, how our "data" gets into the group in the form of
> stories and discussion and becomes a "social memory" which can (if
> we allow it to) influence our way of seeing the world.
>
> All that from a brief bit of a dream. That was my first experience
> of using a dream in this way - I must eat more cheese at nights!
>
> Mark
> There is almost no end to the ?parts? of the ?personality? one can
> dialogue with. I?ve been exploring dreams (as in sleeping) for
> about 18 years in a group. The main premise is that every element
> in a dream represents some part of yourself. One of the ways we
> explore what these parts are like is to dialogue with them. It can
> be fascinating, and often very revealing.
>
> Lynne
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Sep 30 18:38:51 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 19:38:39 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
Message-ID: <20060930.093852.1760.2.franis_franis@juno.com>
amen Katheryn!
Sometimes when I was making art, the point was to make an image that
could be interpreted to be something different in as many ways as there
were people to interpret it. But that was my objective at the time.
Maybe the reason A wants to post links to images is they can't discuss in
English very easily?
Franis
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 10:12:34 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
> Kris - thinking in this kind of image doesn't work for me because
> it's open
> to too many different interpretations. The image elicits too many
> diverse
> personal responses, based largely on memories. How, without adding
> language
> that contains words with clear definitions, do you see this as
> communicating
> your thought accurately? Or was it your purpose to be nebulous? If
> so,
> why?
>
> P.S. Until you give me a different choice of name, I will use Kris.
>
> All the best, k
>
>
> On 9/30/06 6:05 AM, "kirsten schneide" <kirstenschneide@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > ok: http://www.tomveatch.com/else/tv/SergeyGutkinFH.jpg
> >
> >> ok:
> >> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/Abalone_board.jpg
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Is there anyone who wants to discuss ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ok:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000TZ4WA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> >>>
> >>>
>
From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Sep 30 18:15:35 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 19:38:41 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] attachments
Message-ID: <20060930.093852.1760.0.franis_franis@juno.com>
No, no problem usually because plain text is the default, and html is the
enhanced version on every email client and webmail.
When I get an html version, (or send one) it comes with formatting,
color, type-sized, etc. and a plain text version comes attached. So I
can't reformat the html version to my own color/typesize to read it
faster, the way I want it to look, that's all. I imagine it makes a big
difference to someone who can't see well, who would like to reformat
everything they get into a larger type size. For awhile I was using a
teeney monitor at a high resolution, so I had to resize everything to
read it easily. Plain text also downloads faster. - Franis
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 16:50:49 +0100 Don Factor
<donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> writes:
> If your set-up is anything like mine, it would be set to plain-text
> by default. This shouldn't - at least it doesn't for me - stop me
> from receiving or sending e-mails using rich text format, different
>
> fonts or colours. HTML is something different, relevant more to web
>
> sites. But I've never messed with a lot of this so I am no expert. I
>
> would warn, that it might be a problem if you reply to Franis with
> one set-up and to everyone else with another since all our posts go
>
> to everybody.
>
> don
>
> On 30 Sep 2006, at 16:37, Lynne Tolk wrote:
>
> > Ive just been exploring my email program. I find that replying
> to
> > you, my program automatically formats the text as HTML (which is
> my
> > normal setting), but if I reply to Franis, the HTML formatting
> > comes off (since hers do not use the HTML). This may be the
> > problem. I never really noticed or thought about it before.
> >
> > Lynne
> >
> > On 9/29/06 7:52 PM, "Kathryn Arizmendi" <tangykatt@earthlink.net>
>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Please note I have sent no attachments in my posts. If you
> >> receive email from me with an attachment DONT open it. I
> >> didnt send it. k
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > -- Lynne Tolk, Professional Coach
> > 208 376-1336
> > www.lifedirectionscoach.com
> > (visit my blog, www.anintegratedlife.com)
> >
> >
> > "Love is never earned . . .
> > It is a grace we give one another" - Rachel Naomi Remen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
From franis_franis at juno.com Sat Sep 30 18:32:57 2006
From: franis_franis at juno.com (Franis Engel)
Date: Sun Oct 1 19:38:42 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <20060930.093852.1760.1.franis_franis@juno.com>
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:36:00 -0400 Kathryn Arizmendi
<tangykatt@earthlink.net> writes:
> Any ideas on that, anyone? Kris has his own language. Maybe he can
> share
> his insights on the topic. k
>
>
Kris/Kirsten/Peter creates buzzwords gratuitously, but sometimes he
stumbles on something interesting because of the sheer volume of his
output. I can't see the point in encouraging him because he so rapidly
decends into self-justified text messaging spamming nonsense, justified
by some sort of debate tactics or art... It seems A is already there.
It's sort of like the egomania of a sax player who plays only to see what
weird sounds he can make his horn do, how fast he can do it, and if he
can get everyone else to stop playing as he seizes total control.
If you and Mark weren't here to talk about music, I think I'd be fanning
the list right now, as many others are doing. - Franis
From edgelink at no-log.org Sat Sep 30 18:59:13 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 19:59:58 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] [Chat_Group]to Don Lay
In-Reply-To: <4B66AE98-8385-4ECC-956F-EA822F397FEB@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
References: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
<4451.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159624960.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<4B66AE98-8385-4ECC-956F-EA822F397FEB@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1359.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159635553.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Hello Don,
No, It was not a part of my question.
I don't want to stop myself to the unique view of what Bohm has developped.
My question pointed to the fact of this listing of techniques of
meditations and its connection with the purpose of Bohm and Krishnamurti.
Are you agree with me if I said that the purpose of these two guys is the
understanding of what is thought ?
> On 30 Sep 2006, at 15:02, edgelink@no-log.org wrote:
>
>> http://home1.gte.net/donlay/step1.htm
>>
>> Have you really understand Krishnamurti,... and so Bohm ?
>> _______________________________________________
> I don't know if you are asking this relevant to DonL's web page or as
> a more general question.
> It sounds to me as though you are suggesting that to understand Bohm,
> it would be necessary to first understand Krishnamurti. Is that correct?
>
> don
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From edgelink at no-log.org Sat Sep 30 19:00:30 2006
From: edgelink at no-log.org (edgelink@no-log.org)
Date: Sun Oct 1 20:01:13 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <F612CA1C-C10B-48FF-83F6-EA4F1236B19E@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
References: <46b.7bd00c9.324feb5c@aol.com>
<F612CA1C-C10B-48FF-83F6-EA4F1236B19E@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1367.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159635630.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Could you disambiguate the word 'cheese' ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese_%28disambiguation%29
> So how many of you did it take to come up with all this?
>
> I am especially intrigued with the notion of 'social memory'. At
> first glance I tend to think of the cause of this working in the
> opposite direction, but I will have to, I guess, dream on it tonight,
>
> Actually, i have tried using cheese for this purpose a number of
> times and sometimes it even works. I haven't kept track as which
> cheese works best though.
>
> don
>
>
> On 30 Sep 2006, at 16:46, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Lynne, spooky you should mention this but I had one tiny element of
>> a dream which I then realised could have been telling me something
>> about how we extrapolate our view of quality, and led to a rich
>> (for me) piece of writing on "quality" and how in commerce we
>> privilege the quantifiable and measurable and "quick" over the
>> qualitative - the contextual, relational, unmeasurable aspect of
>> how we see the world. Out of this I then had thoughts about the way
>> we process data as opposed to the way machines process data - and
>> out of this, some thoughts on how easily we as non-machines arrive
>> at assumptions based on the first data that we become aware of -
>> and finally, how our "data" gets into the group in the form of
>> stories and discussion and becomes a "social memory" which can (if
>> we allow it to) influence our way of seeing the world.
>>
>> All that from a brief bit of a dream. That was my first experience
>> of using a dream in this way - I must eat more cheese at nights!
>>
>> Mark
>> There is almost no end to the ?parts? of the ?personality? one can
>> dialogue with. I?ve been exploring dreams (as in sleeping) for
>> about 18 years in a group. The main premise is that every element
>> in a dream represents some part of yourself. One of the ways we
>> explore what these parts are like is to dialogue with them. It can
>> be fascinating, and often very revealing.
>>
>> Lynne
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 19:09:11 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 20:04:43 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
Message-ID: <597.55f1d83.324ffeb7@aol.com>
I love the idea of making an image that could be interpreted in as many way
as there were people to interpret it. I guess in the interpretation we learn
about others' frames of reference as well as the idea that there are multiple
views of what we like to call "reality". I'm wondering, could the group
arrive at a joint interpretation of one of your images, through the process of
dialogue? Ie - can we all arrive at one jointly-held "truth"? But I'm sure if we
could, it would just be "what's most agreed to be true at the moment between
this collection of people..."
Interesting thought about the language - I'm doing some music to get people
to explore assumptions / power relationships later on this month - and it's a
multi-national group. I like the idea of a medium that transcends verbal
language but I think (and this is another story / theory) that the magic comes
in relating it back to the words. There's a tie-in I see with quantum physics:
we put energy into something and the energy levels go up - we call that the
"excited state" (intereting words, no?); when we stop, the energy levels fall
back down and release energy characteristic of that element. This connection
between quantum physics and energy release in a group came to me watching a
group doing an exercise on metaphors - drawing a picture then seeing what
sense they could make of the world from "within" that picture, before releasing
the energy by bringing it back to their own daily experinces.
Not sure if that makes sense - as I need to dash out to a gig. No doubt to
away another 500 emails when I get back!!!
Mark
amen Katheryn!
Sometimes when I was making art, the point was to make an image that
could be interpreted to be something different in as many ways as there
were people to interpret it. But that was my objective at the time.
Maybe the reason A wants to post links to images is they can't discuss in
English very easily?
Franis
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 19:15:10 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 20:11:35 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
References: <C143DC7D.33B2%tangykatt@earthlink.net>
<009c01c6e497$70855a20$016d153f@DL01>
<7A5A8E0F-6C72-473B-BB30-DA085612A313@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00fe01c6e4b4$100950d0$4317153f@DL01>
What is ontic meaning? Examples please. -- don F
My dictionary defines ontic as "Relating to or possessing real existence" which raises the question: what is unreal existence and how does it differe from "real existence"?
I seem to recall the Greek differentiating two meanings of Being, me on and ouk on, one being potential and the other actual being. Maybe the actual being includes existence as what emerges, stands out while the potential indicates the whole from which and in which something emerges and stands out.
I will try finding the source for this because it may have relevance re the two slit system regarding what actually is.
-- dbl
http://home1.gte.net/donlay
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
What is ontic meaning? Examples please\
don
On 30 Sep 2006, at 14:50, Don Lay wrote:
It?s prerequisite to the making of meaning. k
Interesting idea -- "making of meaning". Is meaning made or experienced? When an artist "makes meaning", is she actually participating in ONTIC MEANING and interpreting that for others?
Does a musician "make meaning" with music? Does a graphic artist? A dance artist, etc?
When the musician makes meaning, does she participate and interpret the meaning of the whole for homo-sap -- a partial meaning for a part of the whole? -- Don L
http://home1.gte.net/donlay
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathryn Arizmendi
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Solo improvisation is the equivalent of solo reading and study so you have some background from which to create and continue dialog. It?s prerequisite to the making of meaning. k
On 9/30/06 5:38 AM, "MarkHarmer@aol.com" <MarkHarmer@aol.com> wrote:
Not sure what solo improvisation has to do with group dialogue?
Hello,
What are your impressions about this music ?
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/2652/
(free subscription to listen the album entirely)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
info:
www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
dialogue facilitator:
facilitator@david-bohm.net
Administrator of the mailing list:
admin@david-bohm.net
_______________________________________________
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From MarkHarmer at aol.com Sat Sep 30 19:35:16 2006
From: MarkHarmer at aol.com (MarkHarmer@aol.com)
Date: Sun Oct 1 20:30:47 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
Message-ID: <c1f.5a5efd3.325004d4@aol.com>
Weird to see a reference to quantum physics shortly after I composed an
email referring to another aspect of quantum physics. Like a double email
experiment?!
I will try finding the source for this because it may have relevance re the
two slit system regarding what actually is.
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From donlay at gte.net Sat Sep 30 18:50:06 2006
From: donlay at gte.net (Don Lay)
Date: Sun Oct 1 20:46:10 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
References: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
<0DF80179-B4A3-4B38-AC46-3AB0A6E5DD6D@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00c301c6e4b0$7e402d70$4317153f@DL01>
I kind of like Bohm's approach which would be that she unfolds the meaning. -- don
I see this meaning, deeply, although it seems important (at times) to see the meaning as unfolding with her ... something like that, so as to not credit the PIS which seems (to me) muddies the water, pollutes the thingk. -- dbl
From: Don Factor
To: bohm_dialogue@david-bohm.org
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
On 30 Sep 2006, at 15:01, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
Interesting idea! And to me it agrees with my earlier thought: surely solo improvisation, recorded (presumably) on ones own, is not dialogue, it's monologue. Unless one's perhaps exploring the dialogue between different elements of one's personality perhaps... - hence why I said group dialogue as opposed to dialogue.
I happen to think that is possible to think dialogically. Such as, if ask myself a question and then try to find an answer. I do this a lot. Most people use the phrase "group dialogue" to differentiate it from the more general meaning which has to do either with a conversation between two individuals or two groups.
This definition only includes dialogue between groups:
? a discussion between two or more people or groups, esp. one directed toward exploration of a particular subject or resolution of a problem : the U.S. would enter into a direct dialogue with Vietnam | interfaith dialogue.
When the musician makes meaning, does she participate and interpret the meaning of the whole for homo-sap -- a partial meaning for a part of the whole?
I kind of like Bohm's approach which would be that she unfolds the meaning. Or to maybe put it more didactically, she unfolds or displays an aspect of the structure that is implicit as potential in the music being performed. I mean, even if the performance is pure improvisation there is some prior form implicit in the musicians own intent even though she may not be conscious of what that is until she hears it herself. Whether this would mean "the meaning for the whole" or something more like a partial meaning, I don't know. But its an interesting question.
don
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From oenthomas at gmail.com Sat Sep 30 19:52:48 2006
From: oenthomas at gmail.com (Owen Thomas)
Date: Sun Oct 1 20:48:19 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] "Risky"
In-Reply-To: <08B55550-9AEB-4E89-A705-4CEBBBE890A2@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
References: <BAY107-F32BF485CCBF26E76D6FDE1A81B0@phx.gbl>
<6B21E051-F966-417D-9C9C-9C91BC84B864@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
<001801c6e48d$cff3f070$016d153f@DL01>
<08B55550-9AEB-4E89-A705-4CEBBBE890A2@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1dde854d0609301052r51ac79c5yf9f97e5bbb9434a8@mail.gmail.com>
Owen chimes in on the side of living dialogue.
Is there any evidence that dead people who left interesing evidence of
thinking have authority that validates the need to concentrate on
unravelling their thoughts?
As for me give me live dialogue between living people who will respond to a
coherent thread of written dialogue. But save me from diversity of egoistic
fixations.
On 9/30/06, Don Factor <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> If you really want to be serious, the "line of thought" is pure TAS
> and need I remind you that Bohm describes this as the active response
> of memory which can only have limited relevance in the present?
>
> How do you see that developing the connections between the pre-
> socratic Greeks, through to Bohm will help us to live more coherent
> lives and to address the rampant fragmentation in the world? Would
> this be more or less valuable than studying, say, the old testament,
> traditions or the Indo-Arian scripts which pre-date the Greek and
> Hebrew and still have a lot of relevance at least in some parts of
> the world. I mean scholars have been doing this for centuries, but,
> if you think that we should be doing it too, where do you see the value?
>
> don
>
> On 30 Sep 2006, at 13:39, Don Lay wrote:
>
> > Charles Darwin? Why not go back a little further to Bishop
> > Berkeley? -- Don F
> >
> > Why not go back a lot further, as does Bohm, to Parmenides,
> > Heraclitus?
> >
> > Maybe the answer is that it is so much easier to talk trash than to
> > seriously consider that line of thought from Parmenides/Heraclitus
> > through Berkeley to Bohm, to modern physics theory. It is much
> > easier to 'chat', to ignore dialogue, to ignore _On Dialogue_ and
> > its relationship to that _line of thought which Bohm suggests may
> > be 'the way out' of modern civilizations delemma. -- Don L
> >
> >
> > From: "Don Factor" <donfactor@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
> > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:41 AM
> >>
> >> Charles Darwin? Why not go back a little further to Bishop Berkeley?
> >>
> >> Do you not know that Evolutionary theory has come a very long way
> >> beyond this kind of idea? About time you get hold of some more up-
> >> to- date literature.
> >>
> >> These days about the only person I can think of who would take
> >> this notion literally is Richard Dawkina, the high priest of
> >> materialism. Who actually earns his salary by defending this sort
> >> of point of view.
> >>
> >> Come on K, you can do better than that.
> >>
> >> don
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dear Nowmybrainisdoingitdonf ~
> >>>
> >>> Experience shows the problem of the mind cannot be solved by
> >>> attacking the citadel itself -the mind is a function of body.
> >>>
> >>> (Charles Darwin, The "N" Notebook)
> >>>
> >>> ... and yet, a few hundred years later, critters, suckling on
> >>> bohmian tits, (still) drool...
> >>>
> >>> ...togetit..
> >>>
> >>> ...aaaaaaaall....
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> oooooowell
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Love & Noevolution, Kirsten
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> info:
> >> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >>
> >> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> dialogue facilitator:
> >> facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> Administrator of the mailing list:
> >> admin@david-bohm.net
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > info:
> > www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
> >
> > post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
> >
> > dialogue facilitator:
> > facilitator@david-bohm.net
> >
> > Administrator of the mailing list:
> > admin@david-bohm.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
--
We are connected
Owen
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From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 23:16:05 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Mon Oct 2 00:11:34 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] [Chat_Group]to Don Lay
In-Reply-To: <1359.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159635553.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <c29.46c7193.324fd2b1@aol.com>
<4451.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159624960.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
<4B66AE98-8385-4ECC-956F-EA822F397FEB@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
<1359.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159635553.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <0F9FE15B-164D-48C2-8E57-C3F228319F77@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
On 30 Sep 2006, at 17:59, edgelink@no-log.org wrote:
> Are you agree with me if I said that the purpose of these two guys
> is the
> understanding of what is thought ?
Yes. However, Bohm and K began to move in different directions during
K's later years.
I only know at first hand how Bohm felt about it. K wanted Dave to
stop his work with
"those people" meaning the dialogue group, an to stick with him. Dave
was quite upset.
In their early days together there was a great rapport between them,
but this didn't last.
Of course, my interest in and relationship with him was in those
latter years, so I never
became a particular fan of K.
don.
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 23:17:22 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Mon Oct 2 00:12:49 2006
Subject: Subject: Re: [Bohm_Dialogue] music & assumptions
In-Reply-To: <1367.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159635630.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
References: <46b.7bd00c9.324feb5c@aol.com>
<F612CA1C-C10B-48FF-83F6-EA4F1236B19E@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
<1367.AQQDWldUWH8=.1159635630.squirrel@webmail.no-log.org>
Message-ID: <6AD61B59-E9AB-47FD-A33B-889A76A648BE@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
Cheese is very rich in vitamin B6 which if you take a lot of it at night
can lead to vivid dreaming. If yours susceptible it beats druge.
don
On 30 Sep 2006, at 18:00, edgelink@no-log.org wrote:
> Could you disambiguate the word 'cheese' ?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese_%28disambiguation%29
>
>> So how many of you did it take to come up with all this?
>>
>> I am especially intrigued with the notion of 'social memory'. At
>> first glance I tend to think of the cause of this working in the
>> opposite direction, but I will have to, I guess, dream on it tonight,
>>
>> Actually, i have tried using cheese for this purpose a number of
>> times and sometimes it even works. I haven't kept track as which
>> cheese works best though.
>>
>> don
>>
>>
>> On 30 Sep 2006, at 16:46, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> Lynne, spooky you should mention this but I had one tiny element of
>>> a dream which I then realised could have been telling me something
>>> about how we extrapolate our view of quality, and led to a rich
>>> (for me) piece of writing on "quality" and how in commerce we
>>> privilege the quantifiable and measurable and "quick" over the
>>> qualitative - the contextual, relational, unmeasurable aspect of
>>> how we see the world. Out of this I then had thoughts about the way
>>> we process data as opposed to the way machines process data - and
>>> out of this, some thoughts on how easily we as non-machines arrive
>>> at assumptions based on the first data that we become aware of -
>>> and finally, how our "data" gets into the group in the form of
>>> stories and discussion and becomes a "social memory" which can (if
>>> we allow it to) influence our way of seeing the world.
>>>
>>> All that from a brief bit of a dream. That was my first experience
>>> of using a dream in this way - I must eat more cheese at nights!
>>>
>>> Mark
>>> There is almost no end to the ?parts? of the ?personality? one can
>>> dialogue with. I?ve been exploring dreams (as in sleeping) for
>>> about 18 years in a group. The main premise is that every element
>>> in a dream represents some part of yourself. One of the ways we
>>> explore what these parts are like is to dialogue with them. It can
>>> be fascinating, and often very revealing.
>>>
>>> Lynne
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> info:
>>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>>
>>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> dialogue facilitator:
>>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> info:
>> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>>
>> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>>
>> dialogue facilitator:
>> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>>
>> Administrator of the mailing list:
>> admin@david-bohm.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
From donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 30 23:20:32 2006
From: donfactor at donfactor.demon.co.uk (Don Factor)
Date: Mon Oct 2 00:16:00 2006
Subject: [Bohm_Dialogue] To Discuss
In-Reply-To: <597.55f1d83.324ffeb7@aol.com>
References: <597.55f1d83.324ffeb7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8B03B4C9-F532-4DB9-B4AD-3C931E997308@donfactor.demon.co.uk>
this sounds fascinating. Would it lend itself to videotaping?
Although such a video wouldn't fit here, it would be great to see and
hear just how something like could unfold.
don
On 30 Sep 2006, at 18:09, MarkHarmer@aol.com wrote:
> I love the idea of making an image that could be interpreted in as
> many way as there were people to interpret it. I guess in the
> interpretation we learn about others' frames of reference as well
> as the idea that there are multiple views of what we like to call
> "reality". I'm wondering, could the group arrive at a joint
> interpretation of one of your images, through the process of
> dialogue? Ie - can we all arrive at one jointly-held "truth"? But
> I'm sure if we could, it would just be "what's most agreed to be
> true at the moment between this collection of people..."
>
> Interesting thought about the language - I'm doing some music to
> get people to explore assumptions / power relationships later on
> this month - and it's a multi-national group. I like the idea of a
> medium that transcends verbal language but I think (and this is
> another story / theory) that the magic comes in relating it back to
> the words. There's a tie-in I see with quantum physics: we put
> energy into something and the energy levels go up - we call that
> the "excited state" (intereting words, no?); when we stop, the
> energy levels fall back down and release energy characteristic of
> that element. This connection between quantum physics and energy
> release in a group came to me watching a group doing an exercise on
> metaphors - drawing a picture then seeing what sense they could
> make of the world from "within" that picture, before releasing the
> energy by bringing it back to their own daily experinces.
>
> Not sure if that makes sense - as I need to dash out to a gig. No
> doubt to away another 500 emails when I get back!!!
>
> Mark
> amen Katheryn!
> Sometimes when I was making art, the point was to make an image that
> could be interpreted to be something different in as many ways as
> there
> were people to interpret it. But that was my objective at the time.
>
> Maybe the reason A wants to post links to images is they can't
> discuss in
> English very easily?
>
> Franis
>
> _______________________________________________
> info:
> www.david-bohm.org/mailman/listinfo/bohm_dialogue
>
> post to: dialogue@david-bohm.net
>
> dialogue facilitator:
> facilitator@david-bohm.net
>
> Administrator of the mailing list:
> admin@david-bohm.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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